[andrewthewookie]

Yes, this is only for trades. If you're buying something, it's pay then ship, no matter who you are. It's ok to do that, because by using PayPal's "goods" option, you get some buyer protection in the way of the ability to dispute the payment up to 45 days after you sent the money.

This post has been edited by andrewthewookie: 10 January 2012 - 09:12 PM

[LV Backpacker]

The one question that has always bugged me, if a trade with a pc member includes the pc member adding cash, do they still send the cash second, or is the cash aspect treated as a regular sale and sent first before either of the guns are sent?

[-ORaNGe-]

Duke Scrotum, on 10 January 2012 - 08:37 PM, said:

I can agree with this rule.

Hey orange, could you, or would you, be willing to clarify the rules on shipping. What I mean is when someone writes in the sale thread

"once I ship the package I take no responsibility for it" or "buyer pays for insurance".

As far as I know paypal needs delivery conformation of some sort so that the seller has some proof that they indeed shipped it. Is it still the sellers responsibility until the buyer receives the package? If it is lost or damaged in the shipping process does that fall on the buyer? If the responsibility doesn't fall on the buyer shouldnt the seller be responsible for the insurance to guarantee their package is safe until it is delivered? I always ship with tracking and insurance as it costs 11$ for a flat rate box, .75 cents for delivery conformation, appx 1$ per 100$ insured, and less than 2$ for signature proof of receipt. Also anything insured for over 200$ automatically has to be signed for. It cost me 18$ to ship my Marq Closer to Florida and I didn't have to worry about a thing.


I am just asking for some clarification. Thanks.

That is something that I won't write an end all rule on because it goes on a case by case basis. Just because someone says "I don't care if the bomb I put in the box goes off en route and the gun is destroyed it's not my fault" doesn't mean it actually isn't his fault. People can say whatever they like, just because they've said it doesn't make it so.

I will tell you right now off the ONLY time I would completely clear a user of any responsibility once an item leaves their hands.

-The user would have to do a shooting and boxing video in one. They would have to air up the gun, hold the camera near it to prove there are no leaks. Shoot a pod through the gun without issue. De-gas it and carry the gun over to the box, package it in a new box intended for shipping with the gun's case or gun wrapped in bubble wrap and taped so it can't come out and the voids in the box filled with packaging material so it can't move around then seal it. They would also need to ship WITH TRACKING AND INSURANCE sufficient to cover the cost of replacing the item if it were lost or somehow damaged in transit.

Unless that is done someone claiming once it leaves their hands it's not their problem is 100% bullshit and I won't accept it. If you have a shooting video that is 2 weeks old that doesn't mean the gun was working the day you shipped it, even if the shooting video is a day old, not good enough. In order to have no shadow of a doubt you have to do it the way I described above to protect yourself. If someone just throws a gun in a box with a bit of news paper and it gets there beaten to hell, yes, it is the seller's fault 100% and no bullshit claim of "it was okay when it left" is going to cut it.

On a similar note the only way to prove 100% that it isn't the buyer's fault that a gun isn't working properly is for them to do an unboxing and shooting video immediately. They should have a pod of paint and a tank with air ready at the table when they unbox it, screw in the tank and see if there are any leaks, then take it to the backyard with a chrono and see if it'll shoot 300fps without issue. When you think about it if you're holding an item worth $1000 is it that much of an effort to do a 4 minute video that could save you hundreds?

In cases where this doesn't happen (Most) we'll go off of the evidence we have and we really do dig deep, however in some cases we can't prove things either way and in that case if neither party can be satisfied we recommend either A. both people split the costs or B. the items/money to returned to the original owners. Things don't always work out, we can't settle everything, sometimes people will need to eat an expense, people may have to settle it on their own but in those cases that's when your reputation and feedback are at stake. I sold my Pink Lady Ego 09 a few months ago, the guy came to pick it up, it had an eye fault due to some shitty paint which broke at an event. I cleaned the eyes and then showed him the eyes worked, put my finger into the breech, in and out and showed him they were fine and he agreed. Two weeks later he messaged me saying they weren't working and was willing to split the cost of new ones. The only place locally to have them only had Virtue Laser eyes for $45. I told him not to worry about the cost that I'll get him a pair of eyes, I tracked some down in Calgary thanks to HeroForADay with a guy he deals with him and had him shipped a new pair of eyes for $25.

I ate that $25 knowing I wasn't in the wrong, that it most likely was his fault, but because there was even a shadow of a doubt that it was my fault and because I wanted to preserve my reputation and spotless feedback I ate the cost. If you want to maintain yourself in high standing as a seller/trader sometimes you have to do that and if people aren't willing to lose a little to gain a lot in the long run it'll show.

LV Backpacker, on 10 January 2012 - 10:55 PM, said:

The one question that has always bugged me, if a trade with a pc member includes the pc member adding cash, do they still send the cash second, or is the cash aspect treated as a regular sale and sent first before either of the guns are sent?

Realistically this is something I'm willing to let the two parties involved in the trade discuss but I would PREFER the PC member pay after they've received an item. It's not a HUGE deal because PayPal as long as you've paid under the goods tab is extremely good about recovering funds if need be. So if the deal better suits the PC paying first, or the feedback for the member is much higher than the PC so be it. Basically in a case such as this we like to still give people some freedom and choices in how they deal to make things easier on everyone. We prefer to sufficiently guide and protect users, not force our hand in their dealings.

[LV Backpacker]

Thanks Orange

[BlackRabbit]

So not trying to stir the beehive or anything..

but just to clarify. Can I tell someone in PC with less feedback then me I don't feel like shipping first our not ?

It's not gonna be like:
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
PC Guy: I'll give you **** for your ****.
Me: Ok sure I can do that. How do you want to do this ?
PC: You ship first cause I'm PC
Me: *Looks at member join date that is dated a week ago/no feedback/5 posts* "I don't feel all that comfortable shipping first I have *** feedback all positive."
PC: I PAYED 15 DOLLARS & GAVE ALL MY INFO YOU GOTTA SHIP FIRST !!!!
Me: No thank you I just don't feel like dealing with this.

Orange: BAN-HAMMER!!!
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Is it ?
Or a bunch of "shady..rabbit is shady !!"

This post has been edited by BlackRabbit: 11 January 2012 - 12:23 PM

[-ORaNGe-]

You aren't forced to deal with specific people, you can ask them if they'd be willing to wave being shipped to first, if they say no you don't have to deal with them. What I'm saying is I'm not going to allow users to refuse all PC members, that's all.

[BlackRabbit]

-ORaNGe-, on 11 January 2012 - 02:30 PM, said:

You aren't forced to deal with specific people, you can ask them if they'd be willing to wave being shipped to first, if they say no you don't have to deal with them. What I'm saying is I'm not going to allow users to refuse all PC members, that's all.

Ah ok.
Great to hear.
Wasn't totally sure how everything was gonna work.
Thanks Orange

[Duke Scrotum]

Thanks orange, for the clarification. And I too have no problem eating the small expenses. I just want to know that I don't need to worry about getting scammed or eating the price of a highend gun.

[CavenaughW]

cybermaniac15, on 10 January 2012 - 01:40 AM, said:

I love this place...

[epikfailpaintball]

AMEN ORANGE!!!

[deland13]

Ok here is a good question I was gonna get a tank but he wants me to do check or money order? Its like a trade? I don't feel safe.

[-ORaNGe-]

deland13, on 13 January 2012 - 09:33 AM, said:

Ok here is a good question I was gonna get a tank but he wants me to do check or money order? Its like a trade? I don't feel safe.

I recommend always sticking with PayPal, they'll recover the funds if you have trouble. A money order you're pretty much sunk, a check you'll get it back after they cash it proving you paid them and have evidence for the police. But if the police officer decides not to give a shit you're shit out of luck, I wouldn't do the deal unless it's PayPal.

[TECHDP=)]

Cool.
now to sell more shit

One thing.
How do you freeze someones paypal?

[deland13]

I think you make a claim, its somewhere on the account page.

[Hurstman]

-ORaNGe-, on 10 January 2012 - 07:18 PM, said:

It's pretty much been addressed but I'll explain a bit more about PC membership.

It's more than just paying $30, as has been said we have their shipping address, name, paypal info, and through the site email, IP and often given all of the info we have on them we can easily find them on Facebook and/or their phone number.

Also most PC members have been long time members and are known to the community and don't want to be booted out over a bad trade or a scam. Plus of course the ones with half a brain knowing we have all of their info won't be willing to conduct a scam and then get hammered to the wall. Here are some things I'm perfectly willing to do and have done in the past.

-Post on their Facebook wall, or have a member post on their wall all of the evidence against them which will be seen by friends, family, employers, teammates, etc.
-Message their family members
-Call their local fields and shops and have them banned
-Contact their sponsors and have them removed from their team
-Contact other teams in the area to pressure them to return the items
-Have a staffer or well known and trusted TechPB'er pick up the item at their door and inform their parents of what they've done
-Allow their info to be leaked to the TechPB community so they are bombarded with phone calls and text messages
-Have the person whose been scammed press theft charges, if you are in possession of stolen goods which have crossed state lines it's a felony
-Have them banned from MCB, PbN, and Spec Ops the same day
-Call their employer and inform them of the situation, if it's a field it's a guarantee they'll immediately be fired and banned from the field


Given all of the info we have on PC members if a regular member is unwilling to ship first to them (unless the member has immaculate feedback and the PC member has very little feedback) that person is highly suspect of being a scammer. It's like when a user is unwilling to ship first to staff or use third party, if that's the case it's pretty much a guarantee that the person is looking to conduct a scam.

For those who automatically insist "I NEVER SHIP FIRST NO MATTER WHO YOU ARE". I'm sorry but those people are idiots, what person in their right mind is going to approach this deal with 30 feedback and ship first to someone with none? That SCREAMS scam. If any user isn't willing to ship to me first, and I've done this where I offer something in their favour that's in their wanted trades and they refuse to ship first at that point I'm willing to ban them as a precaution. If you won't take a trade in your favour that you're looking for because you have to ship to me first, there is a very high risk that person is conducting a scam and they're gone, I'm not taking a risk on them it's not worth it.

List of people not to fuck with. Ever.
-------------------------------------------------
- Clint Eastwood
- Orange
- a man with nothing left to lose
- Josh Saumure
- Orange again

[deland13]

And me...

[Justin T]

Hurstman, on 14 January 2012 - 10:15 PM, said:

List of people not to fuck with. Ever.
-------------------------------------------------
- Clint Eastwood
- Orange
- a man with nothing left to lose
- Josh Saumure
- Orange again

Agreed

[Kikkia]

I dont see why shipping first to players club is such a problem. There is almost a zero chance of getting scammed

[AceComets]

Hurstman, on 14 January 2012 - 10:15 PM, said:

List of people not to fuck with. Ever.
-------------------------------------------------
- Clint Eastwood
- Orange
- a man with nothing left to lose
- Josh Saumure
- Orange again

you have to add John Wayne to that list.

[-ORaNGe-]

John Wayne is lame....