[Panda's Revenge]

I've decided that I should set myself a paintball goal, and see which marker I should save up for. If you do not like the Vanguard demon, come up with a valid rebuttal for your marker of choice that's in the same price range. I would like to know these things


Marker:
Programming:
Ergonomics:
Aftermarket Selection:
Need for aftermarket parts:
Maintenance (in terms of how many times should I maintain it per month, i.e. everytime after you play, once per month etc):
Colors it comes in (yeah, I'm picky):
Efficiency, of course:


User recommended:
Hebiki has recommended the CloneGT (which I also like)

And I have come up with a couple decisions on my own:
Alien Invasion (although the ergos don't look to comfortable)
DroneDX


Or I may just cheap out and get an Axe.

This post has been edited by Panda's Revenge: 15 February 2013 - 02:00 PM

[kingJurzy]

Empire Vanquish

[Panda's Revenge]

omg boot u didn't put the efficiency

[Hebiki]

Panda, on 13 February 2013 - 07:58 PM, said:

I've decided that I should set myself a paintball goal, and see which marker I should save up for. If you do not like the Vanguard demon, come up with a valid rebuttal for your marker of choice that's in the same price range. I would like to know these things

Marker: CloneGT
Programming: OLED... with new GTi announced, Color OLED
Ergonomics: Improved from the VX
Aftermarket Selection: Pooty Bolt
Need for aftermarket parts: None. Pooty bolt for cold weather.
Maintenance (in terms of how many times should I maintain it per month, i.e. everytime after you play, once per month etc): Maintenance is every 5-6 cases (at least thats how often i do it.)
Colors it comes in (yeah, I'm picky): Various plus custom anno
Efficiency, of course: Depending on tank, but i easily get 9 pods on a 68.

[Panda's Revenge]

While it is a bit on the higher end of the price spectrum, I could probably find it cheap used.
Thanks. I'll wait for more choices.

[unfated33]

Panda, on 13 February 2013 - 08:07 PM, said:

While it is a bit on the higher end of the price spectrum, I could probably find it cheap used.
Thanks. I'll wait for more choices.

I think Hebiki hit the nail on the head.

Also, I wouldn't want to give cash to a company that doesn't pay its design staff. Particularly when they pulled such an ugly move with leaving their creditors high and dry for almost $800,000. For all we know, that could kill Vanguard in the long run. Or well, I mean... we could hope for an outcome like that.

[Panda's Revenge]

Care to expand on this "not paying the design staff?"

[syllabuz]

unfated33, on 13 February 2013 - 08:11 PM, said:

Also, I wouldn't want to give cash to a company that doesn't pay its design staff. Particularly when they pulled such an ugly move with leaving their creditors high and dry for almost $800,000. For all we know, that could kill Vanguard in the long run. Or well, I mean... we could hope for an outcome like that.

LOL, boom goes the dynamite!

Panda, on 13 February 2013 - 09:15 PM, said:

Care to expand on this "not paying the design staff?"

Douchebaggery, in short.

[Panda's Revenge]

I see.
So Vanguard CEO big boss man was told them to design a pretty marker and then he became an asshole and didn't pay them.
Simple enough.

What about the MacDev DroneDX? I could really care less for PSP mode, and it's cheaper than the GT which is a plus for me.

[-ORaNGe-]

The debts owed by Vanguard were owed by Vanguard, not Vanguard USA, different company, Frank bought the assets, patents, equipment, etc. Just because you buy a company's assets does not mean you also get their debts. Creditors need to chase the former owners, not Frank and Vanguard USA.

As for the Demon, there is a reason we chose it, it has the efficiency of a G6R (Mike's efficiency test of it yielded 12 1/2 pods), and the Demon gets 12-13 pods. The next major advantage for us is that it's RIDICULOUSLY quiet, gun's sound signatures vary based on where you stand, the Ego for instance isn't all that loud for the shooter, but for the target on the other end it's loud as hell. The Demon if you're on the other end you just flat out don't hear it, especially in the woods. They've also proven to be VERY reliable in the winter here where many spools won't work, here's an interesting tidbit, Dye asked Kaz to try the Dye DAM with similar settings that we were using for the Demons to have them run well in the winter to see if they could get the same results.

It's also smooth as all hell, not a huge factor for me, I personally don't care that much but it definitely is nice, it shoots smoother and quieter than the Luxe or Clone, both of which being more expensive markers and it's more efficient than both as well. The Demon does have downfalls though I'll be the first to admit it or I wouldn't be me. The trigger needs work, it's too stiff for my liking, the first thing you should do is remove the trigger spring if there is one. The trigger is decent, perfectly fine if you're using ramping but for semi I'd like a lighter trigger. The only other gripe I have is no hard copy manual you can bring out to the field, it's on a CD instead.

That's all stuff that will be addressed though, Frank takes our feedback seriously and changes have already been made based on our suggestions. If anyone has any questions about Demons at all or need tech help feel free to PM me.

[Panda's Revenge]

I was patiently waiting for the Citrus Connection to chime in, because I know you guys love the Vanguard.
I'm gonna ignore the business end of company, I would really not like to get involved and I would rather stay the ignorant baller who just wants a cool marker.
Quiet is very nice for me, although living in Southern California I wouldn't really need to worry about winters.

So now it's all a game of availability when I'm able to purchase.
It's between the Used CloneGT and the Demon.

Thanks a bunch Orange!

[unfated33]

-ORaNGe-, on 13 February 2013 - 09:40 PM, said:

The debts owed by Vanguard were owed by Vanguard, not Vanguard USA, different company, Frank bought the assets, patents, equipment, etc. Just because you buy a company's assets does not mean you also get their debts. Creditors need to chase the former owners, not Frank and Vanguard USA.

As for the Demon, there is a reason we chose it, it has the efficiency of a G6R (Mike's efficiency test of it yielded 12 1/2 pods), and the Demon gets 12-13 pods. The next major advantage for us is that it's RIDICULOUSLY quiet, gun's sound signatures vary based on where you stand, the Ego for instance isn't all that loud for the shooter, but for the target on the other end it's loud as hell. The Demon if you're on the other end you just flat out don't hear it, especially in the woods. They've also proven to be VERY reliable in the winter here where many spools won't work, here's an interesting tidbit, Dye asked Kaz to try the Dye DAM with similar settings that we were using for the Demons to have them run well in the winter to see if they could get the same results.

It's also smooth as all hell, not a huge factor for me, I personally don't care that much but it definitely is nice, it shoots smoother and quieter than the Luxe or Clone, both of which being more expensive markers and it's more efficient than both as well. The Demon does have downfalls though I'll be the first to admit it or I wouldn't be me. The trigger needs work, it's too stiff for my liking, the first thing you should do is remove the trigger spring if there is one. The trigger is decent, perfectly fine if you're using ramping but for semi I'd like a lighter trigger. The only other gripe I have is no hard copy manual you can bring out to the field, it's on a CD instead.

That's all stuff that will be addressed though, Frank takes our feedback seriously and changes have already been made based on our suggestions. If anyone has any questions about Demons at all or need tech help feel free to PM me.

This question's been floating around for a few months, but still hasn't clearly been answered - if Vanguard did not yet own the designs on their markers because they hadn't paid for them, did they have the ability to sell them to Vanguard USA as assets in the first place? Is Frank infringing by continuing to release new markers using more or less the same design if he doesn't actually own it?

Not really sure why Frank took such a hard line with the designers - he could have fixed the problems that Vanguard UK had made by paying them and gotten a head start on new work in the future. Instead the 2013 model looks an awful lot like the 2009 model. All for the cost of what? They couldn't possibly have been much of the total debt, but I guess maybe you pay one guy and then the whole pile of $800k debts has a logical argument for why they should get their piece, too. For the record, never have I heard of a legitimate business deal where a company sells all of its assets to someone, bankrupts all of the debts, and then all of the former employees get to reopen their storefront in the same place in the market but just under a different name. Doesn't that sound even the least bit shady to you, Orange?

[Panda's Revenge]

This is a fight over what marker I should waste my college funds on, not what Frank of Vanguard is doing.
If you really want to make a big deal about it please take it to the PM's or to paintball chatter.

[SOUP]

Orange covered the majority of it

I regret trading my first 2013'ed demon. So when the opportunity came around I snatched up a "broken" 2012 for cheap. I just sent it in to Frank for the 2013 updates which will resolve the qev issue it was having. I'll have it back sometime next week. Needless to say, I'm really looking forward to having another 2013 demon back in my hands for this year.

There are some things that could be better about them, but these issues are honestly personal preference. I like the trigger personally. With the spring cut and stretched (or removed) it makes it much lighter. Also backing the magnet further away gave it an even lighter pull. I have mine set up perfectly for my liking and have zero complaints about it.

my biggest gripe is the grip frame itself. Which is not even a big deal at all, it's just kinda boxy and could be improved ergonomically (again, personal preference). It almost reminds me of a cyborg in the grip frame, width wise.

The length of the demon is kinda luxe-like, but it feels quite a bit different in the hands. The demon regulator is skinny. Almost too small for me, but with an exalt regulator grip I bet it would feel much better for me personally. So I'll order one for it soon.

Best kept secret in paintball? I think so. The Clone GT gives it a run for it's money though, they're both amazing markers if you ask me.

[unfated33]

Panda, on 13 February 2013 - 10:07 PM, said:

This is a fight over what marker I should waste my college funds on, not what Frank of Vanguard is doing.
If you really want to make a big deal about it please take it to the PM's or to paintball chatter.

Sorry, I got my word in on Frank, but the reason I mentioned it at all is the very real concern that a Vanguard Demon might not have official corporate support by the time you buy it (as in, if Vanguard were to succumb to its current debts). Certainly the lack of a corporate entity hasn't ended the use of markers from AGD and ICD, but just as often you see a story of a marker like the Rogue (which I guess is now supported by the asian factory that produced them). The good thing about the Demon is that you've got Citrus Connection on the site for support - I think I remember seeing that some of them were working towards becoming Vanguard certified techs. On the flipside, I don't think Aggressive Sports is helping anymore (no mention of Vanguard anywhere)...and well, for that matter, none of the US representatives listed on the vanguard website seem to mention Vanguard at all.

Good markers transcend bad companies, and there's every reason to think that the praise for the Demon points that direction. But it's still a risk. That's all I wanted to add about the marker. I'll put the rest into Paintball Chatter. Orange, you're welcome to PM me.

[D.A.M.Baller321]

I'm gonna recommend the axe pro. I just ordered the le pdd last night. I don't have it yet so I can't tell you how it is yet but from everything I've heard about the axe they are great guns with good efficiency. The le pdd comes with an empire freak with 5 inserts. At a little under $800 it is a steal in my mind.

[SOUP]

Considering you can get used axes for less than $300 and they shoot exactly like an axe pro minus the fancy oled board, and the barrel kit I fail to see how spending almost $800 on one is a good deal. Just my take on that. I do like axes though, mine was nice.

[D.A.M.Baller321]

I don't like buying markers used that I can buy new because very few people are as ocd with they're guns maintenance as I am.

[D.A.M.Baller321]

And I'm aware they go for $300 used I just like everything the pdd comes with and to me it looks beautiful so I'm willing to spend the money for the gun.