[RealtorTommy]

brycelarson, on Jul 15 2009, 10:02 AM, said:

RealtorTommy, on Jul 15 2009, 08:49 AM, said:

I would make one suggestion that I do for our team sponsors when we are beta testing new or prototype products....Give them a heads up of what the results was and let them try to work with you or advise you on further testing before results are released. Then blood vessels won't pop out of their heads.....

If it was a prototype - or new product, then yeah, that's great. In this case the claim has been in their materials and on the web for 5 or so years. That's plenty of time for Jack to get some data together.

But yes, in this case, things were exacerbated by other circumstances. CockerPunk already had some previous history with Jack. Their conversations of a few months ago were what prompted this test. The internet is a great place for things to get out of hand. CockerPunk and Jack were both a bit on the edge - which, in turn led to fanboys on both sides taking things to really inappropriate places.

Neither Jack nor CockerPunk ever stepped over the line, but the overall tone of the conversation was poor because of the other participants. CockerPunk and I have both had extensive phone conversations with Jack - before, during and after the test. They were all very cordial and professional. The thing that we didn't and won't to - is hold results because they don't agree with what the manufacturer claims. Which, in effect, is what Jack wanted us to do. That would simply be dishonest work on our part - if we chose to withhold data because it was going to make someone mad. If we are confident in our procedures (which we are), open about our methods (which we are) and trust our results (we do), then the onus has to be on the other person to step forward and produce better data and a better test to refute ours.

Now, if someone asks us to help in product development, that's something else and we would have to make some decisions about whether we even want to get into that. The moment we are tied to a product competing in the market - our credibility when talking about competing products has gone down the shitter.

We want people to call us on stuff if they see a problem - that's how we'll improve our testing. Smart people like you should be watching us like hawks - jumping on us for any problems you see in what we do. The criticism leveled at us about not documenting our tests is simply a smoke screen for people who don't like our results. And that's fine. I'll continue to use the gear that we find to be best though our work - and in the end, I'll have an advantage over people who don't. Which is what this is all about.

I'm not saying withhold....you know me I try to look at both sides before leaping (I still get schooled sometimes) But if a result from a claim, this instance the Bolt didn't pan out...I would hit pause for a day or two and say Jack...the results of the bolt wasn't that good....Could the bolt be defective? Could you send another bolt or is there something in the set up we missed?.......I know this is playing armchair quaterback after the game is over....but just trying to smooth future tests...

Hell look at my sig....My main sponsor knows me well...too well...I have more documentation on them then anyone else....I was not a fanboy for years because of claims, stories and my opinion subpar materials...They listened to the players and they will be one if not the best companies for quality equipment and service to the player for years to come...Credit this to people like Sean who came aboard and are working for the better of paintball as well as the company...



just my two cents....according to inflation my half cents worth

[cockerpunk]

the results on this one were complicated due to distrust.

to get a hold of the gun from jack, i had to put a substantial amount of money down. jack did not just trust me with a gun. then, i had to get my money back after i shipped the gun, and due to the level of distrust, that was interesting. i asked him explicitly what equipment, what paint, and what match to use to produce the best backspin effects and he told me "just go out and test it" so we did.

if jack took constructive cristism, well then maybe we would give it. if you have ever seen or spoken to jack rice, he is not the one to talk constructive cristism well. say what you want about jack, but he "knows" it works.

This post has been edited by cockerpunk: 15 July 2009 - 11:30 AM

[AbRa KaDaBrA]

i guess this one is a little weird because alien posted that vid of it working and showed everything while it was happening. so my brain just gets comfued about why there results were so much diffrent then yours. how did they cheat it to look better. or what did you guys do that made it turn out the way it did. im not pointing fingers. im just a confused. ill informed dishwasher

[Jaldrich]

Im just gonna say this. Im not implying that anything was done.

But if Microsoft came out with a test showing Windows Vista Running behind a Mac OSX.......... suggesting anything at all. Would that be a "scientific" test that you would trust.

I am totaaaally not saying that a company cant support its product with scientific test. But what I am saying is that I would question the validity of a scientific test of a product done by the product manafacturer WAAAY before I question the validity of a scientific test done by a NON-PROFIT party with no monetary intrest in the results of the test.

[Caff3in3]

cockerpunk, on Jul 15 2009, 08:42 AM, said:

this stuff is long and boring, we dont film a lot of it, and we dont post a lot of the stuff we do film becuase its not interesting and does not matter. it wont solve any problem, skeptics will still be able to yell fraud.

Now, I'm not saying that some shady things went on, but maybe you could provide the entire raw footage to whoever wants it. Hook up on Groove, or IRC, or wherever and just slam dunk the huge ass video file on them and say: "Here! Watch it all! Eight fucking hours of balls hitting a grid pattern. Fuck yeah. Throw a goddam party and put this on!"

Who cares if it's boring? They want to watch then let them have it.

[cockerpunk]

Caff3in3, on Jul 20 2009, 01:47 PM, said:

cockerpunk, on Jul 15 2009, 08:42 AM, said:

this stuff is long and boring, we dont film a lot of it, and we dont post a lot of the stuff we do film becuase its not interesting and does not matter. it wont solve any problem, skeptics will still be able to yell fraud.

Now, I'm not saying that some shady things went on, but maybe you could provide the entire raw footage to whoever wants it. Hook up on Groove, or IRC, or wherever and just slam dunk the huge ass video file on them and say: "Here! Watch it all! Eight fucking hours of balls hitting a grid pattern. Fuck yeah. Throw a goddam party and put this on!"

Who cares if it's boring? They want to watch then let them have it.

but that is just appeasing people who will never be pleased.

they will say the camera angle is wrong, or not high enough resolution, or that something is going on out of frame ... or a million other things.

there isn't much point in doing it becuase the poeple that arn't convinced by the data will find a way around no matter what. i dont want to get into that e-penis fight. if they dont like our test, do there own.