[brycelarson]

Lament, on Aug 19 2009, 10:13 AM, said:

My thought to that is that the reg is going to need you using it more than only one case to actually break in. I am uncertain as to the specifics, but I would think that, much like many of the markers out there, it would need the equivalent of 10 cases to be broken in properly. And yes, same paint, from batch to batch, and even sometimes, with lower end paint, in the same batch, do vary quite a bit.

We're still on line to do a break-in test. I don't know that anyone actually has any information about whether guns / regs etc really need to break in. It's entirely possible that the improvement that people think they see from their equipment is just them acclimating to their new gun.

[orangataun]

barrel match...haha.. sorry, i was using the stock a-5 barrel, so thats a funny thought. Also, you use 20 shots in a lot of your tests for a sufficient sample size. I was kinda put off by how inconsistent my shots were up and down, so i put a good 20-30 over the chrono to just get an idea of what was going on. it wasnt just 3 shots and guess. Also, i was shooting draxxus bronze both times, so i wasnt having major issues from low end paint. It seems to me looking back that it was either a really minute difference in the batches that could cause something weird, or something with the reg. Something i wonder is if the regs do need break in, sure it might take more than a case and a half like i did to be really broken in, but would the break in process be linear or on a curve? Is it possible that if "breaking in" is possible with regs that it could improve really quickly then have a small gain over several more cases?

[Ced]

The Myth reg's performances thwarts my plans of obtaining one.

[brycelarson]

orangataun, on Aug 19 2009, 10:41 AM, said:

Something i wonder is if the regs do need break in, sure it might take more than a case and a half like i did to be really broken in, but would the break in process be linear or on a curve? Is it possible that if "breaking in" is possible with regs that it could improve really quickly then have a small gain over several more cases?

I'll leave most of the theoretical ideas to the engineers - I'm just a guy who thinks about this stuff - but there are a couple of ways that I could see it going. If the materials used for the parts of the reg that seal up need to get seated - to really work their way into the final shape and interaction with other parts - then I guess you might see a very quick plateau - then very little change. If it's the metal parts (springs, washers etc) that need to get to their final strength and flexibility - then I could see it being linear. I don't really know - which is why we would like to do the test.

We figure that testing break in on a gun is the best bet - since there are so many things going on - it should give us a good first look - sort of the test for IF break-in happens. If we find that it does - we can then design tests to isolate and document what that break-in is.

and yes, unless you're doing samples over the chrono of 20 + then you don't really know what's going on. Sounds like you did check thoroughly. I've had guns do the same number 6 shots in a row - then jump 12 fps. It's all about the aggregation of a bunch of data - not the first few.

[orangataun]

*hopes the tests prove IMPROVEMENT from gradual wear and tear* haha

[visor]

I was wondering if you guys could do the in/out test of the regs with 500 psi in the tank. It has always been claimed that the Myth would give you more shots because it would maintain its output pressure longer. By the looks of your current data I don't think this is true but I would like to know what the out put is for the regs at 500 or under.

Thank you and keep up the good work.

[brycelarson]

visor, on Aug 20 2009, 02:29 PM, said:

I was wondering if you guys could do the in/out test of the regs with 500 psi in the tank. It has always been claimed that the Myth would give you more shots because it would maintain its output pressure longer. By the looks of your current data I don't think this is true but I would like to know what the out put is for the regs at 500 or under.

Thank you and keep up the good work.

well, none of the regs we tested put out less than 500 psi. It's impossible that the reg would output more than the pressure that's in the tank - so there's really no reason to test that low. with the tank pressure at 500 psi - the myth should be outputting 500 psi - as should all of the other tanks.

[cockerpunk]

visor, on Aug 20 2009, 02:29 PM, said:

I was wondering if you guys could do the in/out test of the regs with 500 psi in the tank. It has always been claimed that the Myth would give you more shots because it would maintain its output pressure longer. By the looks of your current data I don't think this is true but I would like to know what the out put is for the regs at 500 or under.

Thank you and keep up the good work.

well actually bryce thats not correct. under the "output pressure" the tank will still regulate the air.

the issue is ballenece, if the reg is well ballenced, then it should maintain higher pressure for longer. im just judging the results of this test im going to say that the myth is not ballanced well, so it probably wont do that very effectively.

[UV Halo]

One thing that makes me wonder about the validity of this test is that one product sample is being used to characterize the design of the sample. Now, 20 regs of each type may be a bit of overkill, I think it would be advisable to not hold onto these findings until more samples are gathered.

Possible things that could affect the performance- design, reg wear, lubrication state, dirt, etc.

GA seems like an up front company, could you contact them to see what they have to say about that output inconsistancy?

[brycelarson]

cockerpunk, on Aug 20 2009, 03:21 PM, said:

visor, on Aug 20 2009, 02:29 PM, said:

I was wondering if you guys could do the in/out test of the regs with 500 psi in the tank. It has always been claimed that the Myth would give you more shots because it would maintain its output pressure longer. By the looks of your current data I don't think this is true but I would like to know what the out put is for the regs at 500 or under.

Thank you and keep up the good work.

well actually bryce thats not correct. under the "output pressure" the tank will still regulate the air.

the issue is ballenece, if the reg is well ballenced, then it should maintain higher pressure for longer. im just judging the results of this test im going to say that the myth is not ballanced well, so it probably wont do that very effectively.

right, but testing below 750 psi means you've now got less air in the tank than you want coming out of the other end of the reg - which means no matter how linear the reg is - you're still going to be under-feeding your marker.

[visor]

What about the secondary reg on a low pressure gun? I guess what I am asking is can one reg give more shots out of a tank than another?

Quote

the other thing you have to keep in mind is the low end cut off.

Once the source pressure (bottle) drops below the regulation point of the tank reg, air should flow freely from the tank to the secondary reg on the marker. If the tank reg doesn't allow air to pass at the lower pressure, it essentially cuts off any usable air, and THAT can reduce the number of shots, but I don't imagine it would be anywhere near a pod's worth due to the necessary volume of air.

This was posted on PbNation in a thread on whether the Myth or any reg could give more shots. So is it true that at a certain point a reg will stop outputting air even with air still in the bottle.

Sorry if it is a stupid question but it has me wondering

[Leftystrikesback]

visor, on Aug 20 2009, 03:43 PM, said:

What about the secondary reg on a low pressure gun? I guess what I am asking is can one reg give more shots out of a tank than another?

Quote

the other thing you have to keep in mind is the low end cut off.

Once the source pressure (bottle) drops below the regulation point of the tank reg, air should flow freely from the tank to the secondary reg on the marker. If the tank reg doesn't allow air to pass at the lower pressure, it essentially cuts off any usable air, and THAT can reduce the number of shots, but I don't imagine it would be anywhere near a pod's worth due to the necessary volume of air.

This was posted on PbNation in a thread on whether the Myth or any reg could give more shots. So is it true that at a certain point a reg will stop outputting air even with air still in the bottle.

Sorry if it is a stupid question but it has me wondering

This is absolutely not true: you can push the pin down and empty the tank completely. So no matter how low the input pressure, the regulator will always allow air to flow.

Gordon, Bryce, if you do suddenly get the interest and funding to do some tests that require Data Acquisition, I have a full version of MATLAB on my computer and will be happy to do the data gathering and analysis. Pressure transducers can be found on Ebay for under $100, as can USB DAQ cards. I've been looking into getting a DAQ card for my own interests, if I do I'll let you know.

This post has been edited by Leftystrikesback: 20 August 2009 - 09:30 PM

[azreal]

Finding a good transducer on Ebay is a bit difficult. I spent 6 months obtaining my 3. Of course 2 of them seem to be broke right now =( I have no idea what happened but they only read .50 volts no matter what. Now I still have my original which is beastly and works like a charm. I would love to get some gem sensors but there 250 price tag puts a dent into that. Plus to be honest with most tank regs I have tested as long as your HP your decent. Some variance but nothing huge, of course adjustables still rule them all but almost no one uses those these days. The only interesting thing I have found is you need at least 1.5k in your tank. Preferably 2k.

Az

[Poe]

Could anyone link to a diagram/cutaway for each of these regulators? I think it would really help the discussion. Maybe even support further tests of similar regulator designs.

Edit: Punctuation

This post has been edited by Poe: 21 August 2009 - 10:29 AM

[brycelarson]

Poe, on Aug 21 2009, 10:28 AM, said:

Could anyone link to a diagram/cutaway for each of these regulators? I think it would really help the discussion. Maybe even support further tests of similar regulator designs.

Edit: Punctuation

yeah, a diagram of the operational method of each would be interesting to compare to the results.

[Poe]

brycelarson, on Aug 21 2009, 11:33 AM, said:

Poe, on Aug 21 2009, 10:28 AM, said:

Could anyone link to a diagram/cutaway for each of these regulators? I think it would really help the discussion. Maybe even support further tests of similar regulator designs.

Edit: Punctuation

yeah, a diagram of the operational method of each would be interesting to compare to the results.

Just FYI for anyone that doesn't visit his site regularly...

Andy has some nice renderings of vertical regulators:

http://www.zdspb.com...isc/maxflo.html

I would love to see Azreal test the Evolve Pi (6th from bottom on that web page).

[Poe]

All I could locate:

Ninja exploded view
http://static.zoovy.com/img/zephyrsports/-...ninja_specs.png

Ninja manual with alternate exploded views
http://www.ninjapaintball.com/Documents/Ct...20091220092.pdf

Myth diagram
http://www.hunt101.c...atordiagram.jpg

Crossfire exploded view
http://www.sundragon...eg_exlpoded.JPG

Those three appear to be of similar design.

[azreal]

Poe you mean like this graph?
It was from a prototype Pi I was sent...Lord...5 years ago? Excellent reg with some finickiness.

Also in regards to the basic design I they all share the same basic design, I think the myth is hurt by its narrowness, in trying to make the smallest possible reg they had to stuff tons of guts into the threaded area with narrows air passages and creates a long skinny piston.

[Poe]

azreal, on Aug 21 2009, 01:27 PM, said:

Poe you mean like this graph?
It was from a prototype Pi I was sent...Lord...5 years ago? Excellent reg with some finickiness.

Fantastic. Thank you. I see you had that in your initial data after I posted. Sorry.

[azreal]

No problem, I think Evolve fixed alot of the Pi problem in their second run. Most any inline reg between 2002-2007 I have hooked up to my transducer too, some of them I no longer have the results some of them I do. Nowadays the stock regs are excellent on most markers, Dye Hyper 2 (Haven't tested the 3) and PEs regs are out of this world.