[TechPB-Mike]

Call me crazy, but I just can't figure out why it's THAT important to put a distinct "label" on the marker



"Why you gotta label people.... I HATE labels...."

[xincognitopbx]

You see, now this is someone to be after...

And also labeling was deemed 'necessary' earlier in this thread Mike, scroll back a few pages


P.S. first after mike

This post has been edited by xincognitopbx: 02 February 2012 - 02:52 PM

[cockerpunk]

TechPB-Mike, on 02 February 2012 - 02:36 PM, said:

Call me crazy, but I just can't figure out why it's THAT important to put a distinct "label" on the marker



"Why you gotta label people.... I HATE labels...."

thats kinda why i protest the entire purpose of this thread. the idea being to assign traditional "spool" and "poppet" traits to guns without fully understanding how they work. if you know how they work, then its easy to figure out what they are good at and what they arnt, but in normal discussion, with relatively new and non technical players, they just want to say "oh its a spool so its smooth and quiet" or "oh its a poppet so it kicks but is efficient" but that is not really the case for guns such as this.

which is why the pressure controlled poppet designation is giving everyone who doesn't understand what it means sand in there vaginas. and im sure jack doesn't like that name cause im pretty sure empire/kee/simon was the one who made it up

[drg]

Jack Wood, on 02 February 2012 - 01:07 PM, said:

drg, on 01 February 2012 - 02:23 PM, said:

Whether or not it would be a completely different gun doesn't have anything to do with the description of the valve, does it? And what does "completely different gun" mean? If the bolt were separated in the first place as it is on this marker, then ostensibly you could have a hammer-driven poppet behind it and it would still be the "same" gun.

I'm not quite sure whether you are being serious here. You are here arguing the semantics of a radial seal v face seal in the context of a system/application that most think the difference irrelevent, and yet you say that disconnecting the valve from the bolt or switching between a hammer-driven poppet and pressure controlled valve doesn't ostensibly alter the function of a gun? Which is it? Surely if you change the way the internals of a gun fundementally function then you change the gun itself? To a "different" type of gun.

Quite serious, the layout of the gun, the action of the bolt, none of that changes what the valve design is. Whether the bolt is integrated with the firing valve actuator or separated from it has no effect on the definition of the firing valve (see: open- vs closed-bolt poppets).

Jack Wood, on 02 February 2012 - 01:07 PM, said:

drg, on 01 February 2012 - 02:23 PM, said:

You don't need to because the Etha is already a spool. It has a locating stop at the back of the spool. If it were a poppet like the mini, changing to a radial seal would require changes to address seal location. If the Ego's poppet had a radial seal it would require design changes.

Sorry, you are correct. I thought you were refering to axial alignment of the spool and body. It would be very easy to create a solid stop for a modified Mini spool.

It would be, but as it stands right now it does not have one designed to do that because it is not a spool, it is a poppet. And whether it is easy or not makes no difference.

Jack Wood, on 02 February 2012 - 01:07 PM, said:

drg, on 01 February 2012 - 02:23 PM, said:

Can they? The sealing force on a poppet valve/occlusive seal is distinctly different from a spool/radial seal. The radial seal seals independently of the pressure acting on it; in a poppet valve that pressure makes the seal.

My comment stands. The balancing and drive forces acting on a spool and a poppet can designed to be the same. I don't think I mentioned sealing forces. Regardless, the gas pressure doesn't have to make the seal in a poppet valve. A poppet can be pressure balanced, as long as it has some closing force, such as a spring. How well it seals across a range of gas pressures will depend on the construction of the seal and seat, of course.

The driving force can be balanced but poppets still require a net positive closing force to seal; radial seals don't need that. That's a big difference in how the seal works, that's in no way inconsequential to the design of the firing valve. Which is the point here, the nomenclature describes the design.

Jack Wood, on 02 February 2012 - 01:07 PM, said:

Jack Wood, on 31 January 2012 - 05:09 AM, said:

How about we call it a pressure controlled valve. As Betasniper said, whether it has a radial or face seal is almost irrelevent when trying to describe the operation of the mechanism. It is more to do with what actuates the seal/valve rather than the actual construction of the seal interface itself.

drg, on 01 February 2012 - 02:23 PM, said:

Well the point of distinct descriptions is to discriminate (in the scientific sense) between designs. As I noted earlier, "pressure controlled" in firing valve operation descriptions is pretty much effectively a way to say spool-controlled, so by nature the action of a pressure-controlled valve is that of a spool valve. Please note that I have acknowledged that there is a difference in marketing but this forum's stated goal is FOR the attacking of marketing distortions, and calling the Etha a poppet in any way is frankly a marketing distortion. I'm pretty sure you know full well the Etha is a spool through and through and have stated as much in other threads.

I too have stated (I think, somewhere) that I agree that technically the gas release mechanism of the Etha is a spool valve. However I struggled with my concience to openly call it a "spool valve gun". Given the general publics current understnding of how a "spool valve gun" operates I think it would be far more misleading, to the consumer, to call this a "spool valve gun". Doing so, to me at least, would have been a far greater "marketing distortion" as viewed by the consumer than what we came up with. I have openly said that we didn't know what to call this gun. I still don;t think it should be refered to as simply a "sppol valve" gun. In my "marketing" description there is reference to a spool. We also wanted to imply that this isn't a traditional "spool valve marker" and that the spools throw was short, hence the poppet reference. And around the circle we go......

The fact that the distance of travel the spool makes it short doesn't change it into a poppet though. I just fail to see how it can ever be called less misleading to call something what it is not, than to call it what it is. If the marketing copy said "poppet-like valve action and efficiency" it would be defensible, but to actually call it a poppet ... frankly that treads closer to false advertising and unethical marketing than I would ever be comfortable with.

TechPB-Mike, on 02 February 2012 - 02:36 PM, said:

Call me crazy, but I just can't figure out why it's THAT important to put a distinct "label" on the marker

It's necessary to use the correct terms to describe what something is for the purposes of technical discussion, particularly in a venue for technical discussion. The OP asked what the marker is designwise, we are defining what it is. The "label" platitude doesn't apply to this.

Guys, it boils down to this. What you are saying is like insisting that a blue gun can be called a black gun because the anodization is inconsequential to the gun's operation and can easily be changed or optioned differently. Insisting that a black gun be called black and not blue is not an inconsequential exercise in labeling.

[Troy]

cockerpunk, on 02 February 2012 - 02:49 PM, said:

thats kinda why i protest the entire purpose of this thread. the idea being to assign traditional "spool" and "poppet" traits to guns without fully understanding how they work. if you know how they work, then its easy to figure out what they are good at and what they arnt, but in normal discussion, with relatively new and non technical players, they just want to say "oh its a spool so its smooth and quiet" or "oh its a poppet so it kicks but is efficient" but that is not really the case for guns such as this.

which is why the pressure controlled poppet designation is giving everyone who doesn't understand what it means sand in there vaginas. and im sure jack doesn't like that name cause im pretty sure empire/kee/simon was the one who made it up

The irony of this post is AMAZING. It's hard to take anyone seriously criticizing others for applying labels to markers, when, in fact, you are the biggest advocate of this marker being called a poppet. Heaven forbid we try to name it something else that makes sense.

[bufon1228]

Maybe is a spool valve but kicks like a poppet . but i dont care i love it and that what counts...

[cockerpunk]

Troy, on 04 February 2012 - 07:27 AM, said:

cockerpunk, on 02 February 2012 - 02:49 PM, said:

thats kinda why i protest the entire purpose of this thread. the idea being to assign traditional "spool" and "poppet" traits to guns without fully understanding how they work. if you know how they work, then its easy to figure out what they are good at and what they arnt, but in normal discussion, with relatively new and non technical players, they just want to say "oh its a spool so its smooth and quiet" or "oh its a poppet so it kicks but is efficient" but that is not really the case for guns such as this.

which is why the pressure controlled poppet designation is giving everyone who doesn't understand what it means sand in there vaginas. and im sure jack doesn't like that name cause im pretty sure empire/kee/simon was the one who made it up

The irony of this post is AMAZING. It's hard to take anyone seriously criticizing others for applying labels to markers, when, in fact, you are the biggest advocate of this marker being called a poppet. Heaven forbid we try to name it something else that makes sense.

i don't advocate calling it a poppet. im also not attempting to give it characteristics based on a super-simplified understanding of the function of the gun, which is the purpose of this thread.

nothing hypocritical about calling the gun by its proper name. its an increasing force pressure controlled poppet.

it works identical to a legion shocker, but its open bolt, one could even argue that the legion is a blowforward as well:



even the definition by ydna is spot on:

Quote

These markers use a pressurized valve plunger to release air in the same way as mechanical markers, however in this case the valve is opened using air pressure instead of mechanical force. Generally speaking, these designs are considered to be further developed, despite some being quite old. This is likely due to the inherent recoil-reduction since these markers often offer low moving mass (which can influence recoil).
The exact firing methods differ from one-another very greatly. I tend to categorize them as either requiring a burst of force to fire, or by removing an "idle" force to fire. There are also hybrid combinations of the two.

i do not understand how something so simple can really be throwing so many people for a loop. i think your all stuck on the word "poppet" and cannot see past the whole notion that there are guns that aren't really poppet valves, and aren't really spool valves, even to the point that the method of sealing the valve is irrelevant ... these guns fit very nicely when you look at grouping them as different types of pressure controlled poppets, as zdspb and ydna do. i think it makes perfect sense, and all of these guns could easily be changed from face to radial or vice versa ...

it really is that simple.

This post has been edited by cockerpunk: 04 February 2012 - 08:11 PM

[drg]

CP did you miss where it was explained that that drawing is not correct? The legion does have a poppet apparently, but that drawing didn't draw that part correctly.

A poppet is something. I don't get why you continue to ignore what it is and just call whatever a poppet.

[cockerpunk]

drg, on 04 February 2012 - 09:47 PM, said:

CP did you miss where it was explained that that drawing is not correct? The legion does have a poppet apparently, but that drawing didn't draw that part correctly.

A poppet is something. I don't get why you continue to ignore what it is and just call whatever a poppet.

it doesn't matter if the seal is radial or face ... it doesn't change how the gun works.

im not trying to call etha a poppet ... im trying to call it a pressure controlled poppet ... which is what it is. how much more basic can this be? its not a traditional poppet valved gun, is a pressure controlled poppet valve, increasing force.

This post has been edited by cockerpunk: 04 February 2012 - 10:09 PM

[drg]

cockerpunk, on 04 February 2012 - 10:05 PM, said:

drg, on 04 February 2012 - 09:47 PM, said:

CP did you miss where it was explained that that drawing is not correct? The legion does have a poppet apparently, but that drawing didn't draw that part correctly.

A poppet is something. I don't get why you continue to ignore what it is and just call whatever a poppet.

it doesn't matter if the seal is radial or face ... it doesn't change how the gun works.

How a gun works (as you put it) doesn't affect whether the valve is a poppet or spool. For the millionth time, it seems.

cockerpunk, on 04 February 2012 - 10:05 PM, said:

im not trying to call etha a poppet ... im trying to call it a pressure controlled poppet ... which is what it is. how much more basic can this be? its not a traditional poppet valved gun, is a pressure controlled poppet valve, increasing force.

It is not a poppet valve at all. What is so hard about this, seriously?

This post has been edited by drg: 05 February 2012 - 12:37 AM

[Troy]

Let me put it this way, I know why the group of markers that fall under "pressure controlled poppets" are not all poppet type markers... however, the term "poppet" has so much baggage that comes with it (it is the name of a certain valve type, after all) that people will see that in the description name and stop there. If I founded a new communist political party and called it "The New Tea Party" that would be outrageously dumb. Everyone knows what the Tea Party is, and what it stands for, so it's quite a natural leap to associate the libertarian stance with the new party that I founded... I can tell people "tea party!=tea party..." but that would just be retarded. If I had a group of painting utensils that I reffered to as "brushes," but that group had rollers and spray cans in it, don't you think that would be hard to explain to people why you grouped them that way?

You SAY you want people to know how guns actually operate instead of getting wrapped up in the spool/poppet box, well here's your chance (your missing it!), call it something that has neither "poppet" nor "spool" in the name and actually describe the important aspects of the firing mechanism in the name.

We both know that the poppet/spool designation is trivial to these markers, so why not just ditch the valve type as a descriptor in the title of the group?

This post has been edited by Troy: 05 February 2012 - 02:59 AM

[drg]

Troy, on 05 February 2012 - 02:59 AM, said:

Let me put it this way, I know why the group of markers that fall under "pressure controlled poppets" are not all poppet type markers...

Why? Because at least as far as ZDSPB is concerned, they all are ... hence they are called poppets.

Which ones aren't?

This post has been edited by drg: 05 February 2012 - 04:47 PM

[cockerpunk]

Troy, on 05 February 2012 - 02:59 AM, said:

Let me put it this way, I know why the group of markers that fall under "pressure controlled poppets" are not all poppet type markers... however, the term "poppet" has so much baggage that comes with it (it is the name of a certain valve type, after all) that people will see that in the description name and stop there. If I founded a new communist political party and called it "The New Tea Party" that would be outrageously dumb. Everyone knows what the Tea Party is, and what it stands for, so it's quite a natural leap to associate the libertarian stance with the new party that I founded... I can tell people "tea party!=tea party..." but that would just be retarded. If I had a group of painting utensils that I reffered to as "brushes," but that group had rollers and spray cans in it, don't you think that would be hard to explain to people why you grouped them that way?

You SAY you want people to know how guns actually operate instead of getting wrapped up in the spool/poppet box, well here's your chance (your missing it!), call it something that has neither "poppet" nor "spool" in the name and actually describe the important aspects of the firing mechanism in the name.

We both know that the poppet/spool designation is trivial to these markers, so why not just ditch the valve type as a descriptor in the title of the group?

because pressure controlled valve does not make any sense. all valves are pressure controlled. a poppet is a piece that articulates over a short distance quickly to open and close. which is what all of these guns have. the face vs radial seal is only present in paintball terminology, as i pointed out before, classic "poppet" valves are from cars, which are tapered seals, both face and radial.

if you can come up with a better name then pressure controlled poppet, im all ears. it may be an uphill battle to get people to more strictly understand what a poppet valve truly is, and how a pressure controlled poppet differs, that distinction makes sense to me.

[Molybdenum]

cockerpunk, on 05 February 2012 - 11:42 PM, said:

if you can come up with a better name then pressure controlled poppet, im all ears.

Poppet fired dump/spool ? I hesitate to group it with the Axe/Mini because it uses an increase (rather than a decrease) in force behind the poppet to open the valve, but if I were to group it into an existing category, pressure controlled poppet would be it.

I think part of the problem stems from paintballs convention of what we call spool valves.

[cockerpunk]

Molybdenum, on 06 February 2012 - 12:00 AM, said:

cockerpunk, on 05 February 2012 - 11:42 PM, said:

if you can come up with a better name then pressure controlled poppet, im all ears.

Poppet fired dump/spool ? I hesitate to group it with the Axe/Mini because it uses an increase (rather than a decrease) in force behind the poppet to open the valve, but if I were to group it into an existing category, pressure controlled poppet would be it.

I think part of the problem stems from paintballs convention of what we call spool valves.

mini does both actually, both increases the force on one side, and decreases the force on the other.

but yeah, otherwise im with you.

[drg]

cockerpunk, on 05 February 2012 - 11:42 PM, said:

because pressure controlled valve does not make any sense. all valves are pressure controlled. a poppet is a piece that articulates over a short distance quickly to open and close. which is what all of these guns have. the face vs radial seal is only present in paintball terminology, as i pointed out before, classic "poppet" valves are from cars, which are tapered seals, both face and radial.

No it is not only present in paintball technology, and the face-type seal is an understood part of the definition of poppet valve. Otherwise any valve with an axially actuating component could be considered a poppet, including spool valves. Short or long action distance has nothing to do with anything, I have no idea why that keeps coming up. Paintball is replete with spool valves with tiny actuation distances.

There is no radial seal in standard automotive poppet valves, that is a "face" seal as we are using the term. The seat and valve face are not elastic and do not seal without axial force.

http://www.edgeroame...t.asp?iNum=0502
http://www.norgren.c...s/aod/spov.html
http://www.google.co...O07LwccpO3a2J1A <--- very clear powerpoint with diagrams

This post has been edited by drg: 06 February 2012 - 05:47 AM

[cockerpunk]

drg, on 06 February 2012 - 05:24 AM, said:

cockerpunk, on 05 February 2012 - 11:42 PM, said:

because pressure controlled valve does not make any sense. all valves are pressure controlled. a poppet is a piece that articulates over a short distance quickly to open and close. which is what all of these guns have. the face vs radial seal is only present in paintball terminology, as i pointed out before, classic "poppet" valves are from cars, which are tapered seals, both face and radial.

No it is not only present in paintball technology, and the face-type seal is an understood part of the definition of poppet valve. Otherwise any valve with an axially actuating component could be considered a poppet, including spool valves. Short or long action distance has nothing to do with anything, I have no idea why that keeps coming up. Paintball is replete with spool valves with tiny actuation distances.

There is no radial seal in standard automotive poppet valves, that is a "face" seal as we are using the term. The seat and valve face are not elastic and do not seal without axial force.

http://www.edgeroame...t.asp?iNum=0502
http://www.norgren.c...s/aod/spov.html
http://www.google.co...O07LwccpO3a2J1A <--- very clear powerpoint with diagrams

automotive valves are tapered:

[drg]

That does not make it a radial seal, that is just hogwash. This is a classic poppet face-type seal. Tapered automotive valves work exactly the same as other poppets, their taper does not change the means of sealing. I don't suggest you try to pursue the automotive valve analogy any further, it's apparent you don't have much experience with them and you are liable to end up embarrassing yourself and/or creating a lot of misinformation.

There have been several paintball valves that used tapered poppets per se, however even seemingly flat poppets seal by the pliability of the material forming a tapered plug.

This post has been edited by drg: 06 February 2012 - 12:04 PM

[cockerpunk]

drg, on 06 February 2012 - 12:04 PM, said:

That does not make it a radial seal, that is just hogwash. This is a classic poppet face-type seal. Tapered automotive valves work exactly the same as other poppets, their taper does not change the means of sealing. I don't suggest you try to pursue the automotive valve analogy any further, it's apparent you don't have much experience with them and you are liable to end up embarrassing yourself and/or creating a lot of misinformation.

There have been several paintball valves that used tapered poppets per se, however even seemingly flat poppets seal by the pliability of the material forming a tapered plug.

a tapered sealing face is by definition both a radial and face seal. do you doubt geometry?

[drg]

Dude, I'm sorry but you're talking out of your ass now. A radial seal is something, just like a poppet is something. If you are just going to spout made up blather, you are making a mockery of the purported purpose of your own forum.

http://www.rlhudson....html#radialseal

This post has been edited by drg: 06 February 2012 - 12:40 PM