[Distortion_UK]

Hallelujah a voice of reason.

[Zorozeenee]

Eskimo, on 03 April 2012 - 08:25 AM, said:

my question: If jogging removes muscle mass, What about sprinting? Cycling? swimming?
if all forms of Cardio are out then guys with large muscle masses are losing a MASSIVE advantage to their work outs.
Building muscle is fine and dandy, but if your heart still pumps like a sickly 5 year old in sick kids. those muscles will never be able to move to their potential.

u need to read the thread cardio removes muscle if your already in good shape, light cardio doesnt. Sprinting is an anaerobic activity so its not really cardio unless done a lot

[Zorozeenee]

jdatkinsn, on 04 April 2012 - 12:59 PM, said:

A lot of claims in this thread without any science.

Let's back up a touch. To think that at any one point in time your body is burning anything exclusively as a fuel source is nonsensical- everyone, regardless of how much they know about human endocrinology, can wrap their heads around this. You're never burning just fat or just muscle tissue or just glucose from the toast you had for breakfast. You're always burning some combination of the food you've eaten, your own body fat, ketone bodies (usually in transient amounts, but still) and, on occasion, muscle tissue.

You can look at lab measures of respiratory quotient to verify this- after a night's sleep, most peoples RQ lies between .80 and .84. An RQ of .69 is pure fat metabolism, and RQ of 1.0 is pure glucose. After a starch and sugar heavy meal you're probably in the .90 to .94 range, but you're still burning some body fat. Whether or not you're adding back even more is irrelevant to the fact that some is always being burned.

The next thing to consider is that jogging, even if it's for an hour or more, is inconsequential to the hormones in your body that actually regulate whether or not you lose fat. Weight loss is much more than a matter of energy balance- it's about your fasting insulin, your blood sugar, your thyroid hormones, etc. To think that some jogging a few times a week would have a meaningful effect absent dietary change is like think that you can permanently keep your heart rate at 180bpm just by running for half an hour. Yes, it elevates for a few minutes, but then homeostasis takes over. The running was inconsequential. Eat a bowl of oatmeal 30 minutes before your run and guess what you're burning? Oatmeal. Not muscle, not fat, not any statistically significant amount at least.

"It's science, google it" is not proof of a concept. Anyone who offers you that explanation and won't explain it to you themselves is probably wrong. Doesn't matter if you're talking about nutrition or astrophysics- if someone tells you "I just know, it's been proven", they're probably full of shit.

would u mind reading the thread, jogging will remove muscle mass if you are in already good shape and do more than just light cardio.

[drexler]

Yes and it really doesn't matter. The only person who would take issue to this is a competitive body builder.

In my opinion you shouldn't be looking to be a big as possible, you should find that balance between cardiovascular fitness and work capacity. I see most people who are jacked and I know they can't put out continuously compared to me.

[RIP-Buttercup]

Read the articles again. Not one says don't jog, they all say don't excessive jog. In fact two of them pretty clearly say to do cardio, including jogging.

This post has been edited by RIP-Buttercup: 06 April 2012 - 12:53 AM

[drexler]

RIP-Buttercup, on 06 April 2012 - 12:53 AM, said:

Read the articles again. Not one says don't jog, they all say don't excessive jog. In fact two of them pretty clearly say to do cardio, including jogging.

Problem is that the article doesn't specify what excessive is. In their eyes it could be 10 miles or 50 feet.

[Luke_850222]

So we can all agree that jogging helps you on the paintball field more than lifting weights.
It builds endurance, and trains your body to pace itself. I guarantee you the pro players are out jogging everyday to make sure they can perform as well as they need to.

[RIP-Buttercup]

drexler, on 06 April 2012 - 09:41 AM, said:

RIP-Buttercup, on 06 April 2012 - 12:53 AM, said:

Read the articles again. Not one says don't jog, they all say don't excessive jog. In fact two of them pretty clearly say to do cardio, including jogging.

Problem is that the article doesn't specify what excessive is. In their eyes it could be 10 miles or 50 feet.

Well one of those was a forum, and the recommendation there was 10-15 miles a week. The other one recommended running about 1-3 miles a day, putting it into the same category. Which for anyone not looking to do endurance sports, but is right about where any other athlete or person wanting good health should go.

This post has been edited by RIP-Buttercup: 06 April 2012 - 02:07 PM

[drexler]

RIP-Buttercup, on 06 April 2012 - 02:06 PM, said:

drexler, on 06 April 2012 - 09:41 AM, said:

RIP-Buttercup, on 06 April 2012 - 12:53 AM, said:

Read the articles again. Not one says don't jog, they all say don't excessive jog. In fact two of them pretty clearly say to do cardio, including jogging.

Problem is that the article doesn't specify what excessive is. In their eyes it could be 10 miles or 50 feet.

Well one of those was a forum, and the recommendation there was 10-15 miles a week. The other one recommended running about 1-3 miles a day, putting it into the same category. Which for anyone not looking to do endurance sports, but is right about where any other athlete or person wanting good health should go.

I'm pushing 2x 5 mile runs per week along with a 1.5m sprint. Combined with swimming 1 mile 3x times per week. Along with crossfitting 4x days per week (and whatever runs are involved in the WOD) I easily push 16 - 17 miles and I'm not some skinny little twig. (I'm training for military SF). My point being, you shouldn't be training to get better, you should be working towards a body that can do more work. A nice appearance goes along with that.

[SavageSnipes]

OP is straight up dumb. cardio is not this catabolic muscle eating machine. prolonged moderate intensity cardio is what is best for fat loss.

the reason your trainer lost muscle tissue is because he wasn't taking in enough calories to compensate for the extra activity he was doing. if you don't want to lose your muscle tissue while doing cardio, up your protein and complex carb intake.

[Zorozeenee]

RIP-Buttercup, on 06 April 2012 - 12:53 AM, said:

Read the articles again. Not one says don't jog, they all say don't excessive jog. In fact two of them pretty clearly say to do cardio, including jogging.

No, its saying jog if ur in decent or bad shape. But if your in good shape it may get rid of muscle tissue

SavageSnipes, on 06 April 2012 - 07:23 PM, said:

OP is straight up dumb. cardio is not this catabolic muscle eating machine. prolonged moderate intensity cardio is what is best for fat loss.

the reason your trainer lost muscle tissue is because he wasn't taking in enough calories to compensate for the extra activity he was doing. if you don't want to lose your muscle tissue while doing cardio, up your protein and complex carb intake.

Please cite your sources again all 3 of my sources say cardio removes muscle mass if ur already in good shape

[Distortion_UK]

Zorozeenee, on 08 April 2012 - 01:00 PM, said:

RIP-Buttercup, on 06 April 2012 - 12:53 AM, said:

Read the articles again. Not one says don't jog, they all say don't excessive jog. In fact two of them pretty clearly say to do cardio, including jogging.

No, its saying jog if ur in decent or bad shape. But if your in good shape it may get rid of muscle tissue

SavageSnipes, on 06 April 2012 - 07:23 PM, said:

OP is straight up dumb. cardio is not this catabolic muscle eating machine. prolonged moderate intensity cardio is what is best for fat loss.

the reason your trainer lost muscle tissue is because he wasn't taking in enough calories to compensate for the extra activity he was doing. if you don't want to lose your muscle tissue while doing cardio, up your protein and complex carb intake.

Please cite your sources again all 3 of my sources say cardio removes muscle mass if ur already in good shape

You don't have sources. You have individuals stating their opinion with no fact. No research and no verification. Come back when you have actuall sources.

[drexler]

Distortion_UK, on 08 April 2012 - 01:22 PM, said:

Zorozeenee, on 08 April 2012 - 01:00 PM, said:

RIP-Buttercup, on 06 April 2012 - 12:53 AM, said:

Read the articles again. Not one says don't jog, they all say don't excessive jog. In fact two of them pretty clearly say to do cardio, including jogging.

No, its saying jog if ur in decent or bad shape. But if your in good shape it may get rid of muscle tissue

SavageSnipes, on 06 April 2012 - 07:23 PM, said:

OP is straight up dumb. cardio is not this catabolic muscle eating machine. prolonged moderate intensity cardio is what is best for fat loss.

the reason your trainer lost muscle tissue is because he wasn't taking in enough calories to compensate for the extra activity he was doing. if you don't want to lose your muscle tissue while doing cardio, up your protein and complex carb intake.

Please cite your sources again all 3 of my sources say cardio removes muscle mass if ur already in good shape

You don't have sources. You have individuals stating their opinion with no fact. No research and no verification. Come back when you have actuall sources.

This, bring us articles from medical journals backing your opinion up.

[Molybdenum]

drexler, on 08 April 2012 - 04:55 PM, said:

bring us articles from medical journals backing your opinion up.

I say 4 to 1 odds this never happens.

EDIT:

http://www.jstor.org/

Maybe, just maybe...

This post has been edited by Molybdenum: 08 April 2012 - 11:32 PM

[epikfailpaintball]

I'm not saying the statement about after burning fat you burn muscle isn't true, it is, but only in extreme circumstances. YOU MUST BURN THE CARBS (carbs = energy) FIRST. Then you burn fat, THEN you burn muscle. Long distance runners who do it seriously make sure to eat plenty of carbs for energy so they don't do that.

I feel that if your trainer was jogging, he could have lost fat that he didn't know he had. OR it is very possible that with how he works out, trains, and excercises almost every day he could have not eaten enough carbs and calories to sustain his work out, thus him losing muscle.

I'm not saying he didn't lose muscle. I'm just saying that science isn't backing up your statement.

[Doctor Hank]

Jogging will not waste muscle tissue, that is simply false. However, what is possible is that those who combine high intensity or prolonged cardiovascular activity with a weight lifting regimen might find their gains are slowing down. This is common sense as energy and nutrients have to be directed to both replenishing glycogen stores used in cardio and feeding muscle that your are trying to build. Protein can be used as energy in cardio exercise, it just simply needs to be changed into a usable form which your body can do through a metabolic pathway, much in the same way it can use lactic acid to fuel you, however your body wont be tapping into your own muscles for energy unless you are severely malnourished or underweight. Your body as a rather large store of glycogen in both your muscles and, primarily, in your liver, so I doubt anyone is losing muscle because of cardio. However, if one is not increasing the caloric intake if combining both cardio and weight lifting, mass will go down just because the calories out is now greater than those in.

Source:
I'm a god damn genius

[jdatkinsn]

Doctor Hank, on 09 April 2012 - 03:32 PM, said:

Jogging will not waste muscle tissue, that is simply false. However, what is possible is that those who combine high intensity or prolonged cardiovascular activity with a weight lifting regimen might find their gains are slowing down. This is common sense as energy and nutrients have to be directed to both replenishing glycogen stores used in cardio and feeding muscle that your are trying to build. Protein can be used as energy in cardio exercise, it just simply needs to be changed into a usable form which your body can do through a metabolic pathway, much in the same way it can use lactic acid to fuel you, however your body wont be tapping into your own muscles for energy unless you are severely malnourished or underweight. Your body as a rather large store of glycogen in both your muscles and, primarily, in your liver, so I doubt anyone is losing muscle because of cardio. However, if one is not increasing the caloric intake if combining both cardio and weight lifting, mass will go down just because the calories out is now greater than those in.

Source:
I'm a god damn genius

Your blunt, absolute calorie math disregards the (more important) role hormesis plays in all this, but for the most part, yes.

[Doctor Hank]

I thought it best to leave out the roles of lactate dehydrogenase, Cori cycle, and basic proteolysis in a techpb discussion, however I can delve into it if you would like

[Doctor Hank]

Also, hormesis (which I expect is what you meant since it is what you wrote, and not homeostasis), has a negligible role to play in standard exercise. That is more in the realm of a complete physical exhaustion type of scenario.

[Eskimo]

RedBull makes me run faster