[EgoPossum]

So as a few people on here know I work in the only paintball proshop in my home town of Thunder Bay, Ontario. Thunder Bay is located roughly about an hour away from the Minnesota/Canada border.

For the last while we have been noticing alot of crack downs on replica firearms and airsoft guns. One of the principals at one of the local high schools got busted trying to import some airsoft guns that were very close to the firearms that are on the prohibited firearms list (Canada is funny like this)
Paintball it seems is now having some issues right now. The field that is closest to town was raided by the police, the owner had some gear seized, told that he could have been charged under an anti-terrorism act for all the "replica firearms" that he had at the field for sale and could have been arrested on the spot. They did leave the rental markers (Custom 98, BT-4, A-5).
We got in contact with the other field in town and with our suppliers to see what is going on and get the word out.

Our store was just visited by one of the head guys for the officers for the guns and gangs unit. He asked alot of questions regarding the FPS that these shoot at, rate of fire, but was really interested in the ones that look like real firearms (TM-15, TM-7, BT Omega, Tippmann Bravo One, Tiberius T8.1/9.1, Tippmann TiPX, GOG G1, BT Delta Elite, Tippmann X-7 Phenom). He is going to the Crown Attorney about what he finds and is going to inform us of their decision on if it is "legal" to sell paintball markers or at least the ones that look like the real thing locally.
He was a nice guy and didn't know alot regarding paintball and I know with regards to our firearms codes in Canada that it is up to to officer in question on how to interpret the firearms code that these fall under.

Here is where I ask for a hand from TechPB:
I need help here. I like my job and I am willing to fight for it.
Without paintball at our store, we would have closed about 6 years ago. Paintball has been good to me for the last few years and this would be a major blow to the Thunder Bay paintball community.
If there is anyone that can give us a hand or information that can help us, please comment below or PM me

This post has been edited by EgoPossum: 02 December 2011 - 04:28 PM

[Mark.c]

If you start a petition, i would sign it. Honestly, other than that, i don't think there is anything you can do.

[EgoPossum]

thanks for the offer.

If I have to I will get a petition ready for people to sign both in the shop, local fields, and online

[Mark.c]

I know there really strict about sims in Ontario, both my parents are police officers. The next time i see them, i will ask what you could do, maybe that could help a bit.

[kiriyama9000]

Invite the police to play for a day!

[Jordii]

On a more serious note, Canada really sucks for these kind of things. Like mentioned above, a petition is likely the only thing to make an impact, but what are you exactly concerned about? It's highly unlikely they'll just say "You can't sell paintball markers", but the chances they'll stop the sale of milsim markers is more reasonable. Still, at least where I'm from, milsim markers make only a fraction of what the speedball markers bring in.

[canscom]

Is Thunder bay RCMP or local Law Enforcment

[EgoPossum]

canscom, on 03 December 2011 - 05:59 AM, said:

Is Thunder bay RCMP or local Law Enforcment

They are local law enforcement.

Update on what is going on:
What the Guns and Gangs officer's issue was is that markers like the TM-15, Delta Elite and Bravo One are "close enough" to the real thing (even though they are not the 1to1 replica that the firearms code classifies as a replica) that if one was pointed at someone they would think that it is a real firearm.
If the person was an officer, they would respond with deadly force. Now I do not blame any police officer that has a paintball gun pointed at them for shooting the person.
He wants to take this to a national level and is getting in contact with the RCMP regarding this.
When we asked him about what he was going to do about Walmart and Canadian Tire selling Airsoft and Milsim markers, he replied that because they sell nationally that he wasn't going to go after them *sigh*

We talked to one of the distributors about this and they helping us look into some avenues for ourselves to work with the police rather then against them, because when dealing with law enforcement there is no winning in the end unless you work with them and come to an understanding

We have always had an internal policy that we do not sell to anyone under 18 unless there is a parent or guardian present and we can talk to them.
What we are doing at this time is taking the shrouds and stocks off of all the offending markers and keeping them in the boxes. The customer can install them if the feel they want them on their marker.

Where we are located, speedball is not even 1% of our total paintball sales. Woodsball, milsim and recball are more prevalent here because there is so much green space around us and everyone knows someone that has a few acres of private property that you can play on.

This post has been edited by EgoPossum: 03 December 2011 - 11:10 AM

[CdTriX]

afaik if you have a firearms license at the shop, they they are allowed to sell paintball guns that are mil-sim variety as well as RAP4 markers. I know the proshop at my field has a license to sell those types or markers. but no one else is allowed.

They have to follow the firearms act and i didn't think it was at the discretion of local law enforcement because it's a federal law.

http://laws-lois.jus...ng/acts/F-11.6/

There is the firearms act in full i believe.

Here's some information that might help you. from RCMP website: http://www.rcmp-grc....eplique-eng.htm

Possessing or Acquiring Replica Firearms
As an individual, you may keep any replicas that you owned on December 1, 1998. You do not need a licence to possess a replica firearm and it does not have to be registered. However, you cannot acquire, make or import a replica firearm. If you take a replica firearm out of Canada, you cannot bring it back in.

If you are a business, you may possess, acquire or import replica firearms only if you have a valid Firearms Business Licence that allows you to possess prohibited device for anapproved purpose.



From the criminal code: http://laws-lois.jus...ge-39.html#h-37

Certain weapons deemed not to be firearms
(3) For the purposes of sections 91 to 95, 99 to 101, 103 to 107 and 117.03 of this Act and the provisions of the Firearms Act, the following weapons are deemed not to be firearms:

• (a) any antique firearm;
• (b) any device that is
  • (i) designed exclusively for signalling, for notifying of distress, for firing blank cartridges or for firing stud cartridges, explosive-driven rivets or other industrial projectiles, and
  • (ii) intended by the person in possession of it to be used exclusively for the purpose for which it is designed;
• (c) any shooting device that is
  • (i) designed exclusively for the slaughtering of domestic animals, the tranquillizing of animals or the discharging of projectiles with lines attached to them, and
  • (ii) intended by the person in possession of it to be used exclusively for the purpose for which it is designed; and
• (d) any other barrelled weapon, where it is proved that the weapon is not designed or adapted to discharge
  • (i) a shot, bullet or other projectile at a muzzle velocity exceeding 152.4 m per second or at a muzzle energy exceeding 5.7 Joules, or
  • (ii) a shot, bullet or other projectile that is designed or adapted to attain a velocity exceeding 152.4 m per second or an energy exceeding 5.7 Joules.

The last part of the criminal code does not classify paintball markers as a firearm because the muzzle velocity does not exceed 152.4 meters per second (500 foot per second) and i don't think paintballs hold together at 500fps. I could be wrong about paintballs handling 500fps though.

Therefore it is not considered a firearm according to the criminal code of canada.

Here's some of the RCMP's interpretation of airguns and it may relate to paintball markers as well. http://www.rcmp-grc....rme_air-eng.htm

This post has been edited by CdTriX: 03 December 2011 - 12:01 PM

[XxLOPERSxX]

EgoPossum, on 03 December 2011 - 10:54 AM, said:

canscom, on 03 December 2011 - 05:59 AM, said:

Is Thunder bay RCMP or local Law Enforcment

They are local law enforcement.

Update on what is going on:
What the Guns and Gangs officer's issue was is that markers like the TM-15, Delta Elite and Bravo One are "close enough" to the real thing (even though they are not the 1to1 replica that the firearms code classifies as a replica) that if one was pointed at someone they would think that it is a real firearm.
If the person was an officer, they would respond with deadly force. Now I do not blame any police officer that has a paintball gun pointed at them for shooting the person.
He wants to take this to a national level and is getting in contact with the RCMP regarding this.
When we asked him about what he was going to do about Walmart and Canadian Tire selling Airsoft and Milsim markers, he replied that because they sell nationally that he wasn't going to go after them *sigh*

We talked to one of the distributors about this and they helping us look into some avenues for ourselves to work with the police rather then against them, because when dealing with law enforcement there is no winning in the end unless you work with them and come to an understanding

We have always had an internal policy that we do not sell to anyone under 18 unless there is a parent or guardian present and we can talk to them.
What we are doing at this time is taking the shrouds and stocks off of all the offending markers and keeping them in the boxes. The customer can install them if the feel they want them on their marker.

Where we are located, speedball is not even 1% of our total paintball sales. Woodsball, milsim and recball are more prevalent here because there is so much green space around us and everyone knows someone that has a few acres of private property that you can play on.

The fact that this guy is going after paintball markers because of their "realism" and not airsoft guns is ridiculous. The shroud and stock idea is a really good one though.

[CdTriX]

XxLOPERSxX, on 03 December 2011 - 12:06 PM, said:

EgoPossum, on 03 December 2011 - 10:54 AM, said:

canscom, on 03 December 2011 - 05:59 AM, said:

Is Thunder bay RCMP or local Law Enforcment

They are local law enforcement.

Update on what is going on:
What the Guns and Gangs officer's issue was is that markers like the TM-15, Delta Elite and Bravo One are "close enough" to the real thing (even though they are not the 1to1 replica that the firearms code classifies as a replica) that if one was pointed at someone they would think that it is a real firearm.
If the person was an officer, they would respond with deadly force. Now I do not blame any police officer that has a paintball gun pointed at them for shooting the person.
He wants to take this to a national level and is getting in contact with the RCMP regarding this.
When we asked him about what he was going to do about Walmart and Canadian Tire selling Airsoft and Milsim markers, he replied that because they sell nationally that he wasn't going to go after them *sigh*

We talked to one of the distributors about this and they helping us look into some avenues for ourselves to work with the police rather then against them, because when dealing with law enforcement there is no winning in the end unless you work with them and come to an understanding

We have always had an internal policy that we do not sell to anyone under 18 unless there is a parent or guardian present and we can talk to them.
What we are doing at this time is taking the shrouds and stocks off of all the offending markers and keeping them in the boxes. The customer can install them if the feel they want them on their marker.

Where we are located, speedball is not even 1% of our total paintball sales. Woodsball, milsim and recball are more prevalent here because there is so much green space around us and everyone knows someone that has a few acres of private property that you can play on.

The fact that this guy is going after paintball markers because of their "realism" and not airsoft guns is ridiculous. The shroud and stock idea is a really good one though.

all the store needs to do is get a valid firearms business license and all of this is not a problem anymore.

[aj619]

First get a print out of the criminal code for firearms next go down to your local police station and talk to someone in charge

Tell them what's been going on and tell them that they are only going after small stores and if they have any idea why this is happening also mention the criminal code of 500 FPS and 5.7 joules requirement for it to be considered a firearm
Then your going to want to get yourself a lawyer that has dealt with cases like this
After that try to get the community involved




Also this is only at a local level I would suggest talking to your mayor
And I own quite a few replica fire arms I don't see why there worried about paintball guns when I could probably get a real gun illegally a lot easier they really need to get there priority's straight

This post has been edited by aj619: 03 December 2011 - 01:20 PM

[-ORaNGe-]

If you can get me the officer's number and extension whose handling it I can call him up and answer some questions for him. I'm Air Force and in my late twenties so odds are he'd be willing to take me seriously.

[EgoPossum]

-ORaNGe-, on 03 December 2011 - 01:28 PM, said:

If you can get me the officer's number and extension whose handling it I can call him up and answer some questions for him. I'm Air Force and in my late twenties so odds are he'd be willing to take me seriously.

Thanks for the offer. They don't seem to take the tattooed, bald paintball tech (that is a wealth of general knowledge) or the early 20's manager in charge of paintball for all the stores too seriously.

I will get you that info when I am at the shop on Monday

[CdTriX]

It could be local cops being bored out of their skulls looking for something to do.

Canada doesn't have a lot of gun related crime. A few armed bank robberies, some homicides, but it's not like it's some huge crime spike because of paintball markers.

It's not like we're riding our bikes down the road with a bravo one slung across our back pretending to be gangsters or terrorists. I personally don't know anyone that owns a gun but that's because I'm city folk. I believe there are more real guns out there then paintball markers. Rifles, shotguns, and air guns for hunting and sports shooting.

[Funk21]

EgoPossum, on 03 December 2011 - 10:54 AM, said:

canscom, on 03 December 2011 - 05:59 AM, said:

Is Thunder bay RCMP or local Law Enforcment

They are local law enforcement.

Update on what is going on:
What the Guns and Gangs officer's issue was is that markers like the TM-15, Delta Elite and Bravo One are "close enough" to the real thing (even though they are not the 1to1 replica that the firearms code classifies as a replica) that if one was pointed at someone they would think that it is a real firearm.
If the person was an officer, they would respond with deadly force. Now I do not blame any police officer that has a paintball gun pointed at them for shooting the person.
He wants to take this to a national level and is getting in contact with the RCMP regarding this.
When we asked him about what he was going to do about Walmart and Canadian Tire selling Airsoft and Milsim markers, he replied that because they sell nationally that he wasn't going to go after them *sigh*

We talked to one of the distributors about this and they helping us look into some avenues for ourselves to work with the police rather then against them, because when dealing with law enforcement there is no winning in the end unless you work with them and come to an understanding

Sounds like he's trying to be super cop and wasting tax payers money(sounds like he wants a promotion or to make a name for himself). If he was so set on preventing an innocent person getting shot by a cop because they have a milsim paintball marker in their hands he would go after the Walmart's and Canadian Tire's because they are the ones who are more than likely going sell it to some idiot that thinks driving around with their buddies and shooting people is cool.

Most people who play paintball and for that matter woods ball knows the importance of safety and would never consider waving it around anywhere other than at the field. Go to the council meetings, get a petition going and make a video message from the players at your local field showcasing the strict safety rules and great sportsmanship that this sport brings out in it's players. Lastly go to the local RCMP / police division to keep the dialog open. I feel for you and my fingers are crossed for ya.

Funk21

We have always had an internal policy that we do not sell to anyone under 18 unless there is a parent or guardian present and we can talk to them.
What we are doing at this time is taking the shrouds and stocks off of all the offending markers and keeping them in the boxes. The customer can install them if the feel they want them on their marker.

Where we are located, speedball is not even 1% of our total paintball sales. Woodsball, milsim and recball are more prevalent here because there is so much green space around us and everyone knows someone that has a few acres of private property that you can play on.

[NJC]

sounds like the local police are being complete dicks about your problem. who is stupid enough to point a paintball marker at an officer unless they are playing paintball? honestly, the only guns that actually look milsim are pretty much RAP4 and a few select guns. and even then, as already stated before, who rides down the street with those guns strapped around their backs pretending to be terrorists? seriously, police need to think with their heads and not their asses

[joeyt]

Police is paranoid about those kinds if things. There are a few officers that play at my field.

[ionpaintballlover]

that sounds like some shit that would happen here in the states

[nowan4ever]

EgoPossum, on 03 December 2011 - 01:43 PM, said:

-ORaNGe-, on 03 December 2011 - 01:28 PM, said:

If you can get me the officer's number and extension whose handling it I can call him up and answer some questions for him. I'm Air Force and in my late twenties so odds are he'd be willing to take me seriously.

Thanks for the offer. They don't seem to take the tattooed, bald paintball tech (that is a wealth of general knowledge) or the early 20's manager in charge of paintball for all the stores too seriously.

I will get you that info when I am at the shop on Monday

orange is on the prowl