[Demon]

eskimo you are on the right track but i think the OP is more regarding to making the "recoil" "vibration" and sound signature better,

[tyronejk]

Demon, on 31 October 2012 - 04:24 AM, said:

tyronejk, on 30 October 2012 - 06:53 PM, said:

Demon, on 29 October 2012 - 10:51 PM, said:

...
and tyrone no gun has ever had forward dwell and reverse dwell or whatever you are trying to say there.
...

Duh hello?
...

here's the manual, i have read it before, and multiple times and i checked again for this. find multiple dwell settings because i sure as hell can't.

http://www.paintball...mini_manual.pdf

heres the shockwave manual too. you can try here if you want, maybe i missed something.

http://www.paintball...nstructions.pdf

also if anyone is confused they pretty much repeat my explanation of dwell almost verbatim in the shockwave manual.

in other words. the manufacturer has NO mention of two dwell settings. and facebook is not a legitimate source for information, now there are such things as a mechanical dwell control dealing with springs etc affecting your dwell, but what we are discussing here is board dwell settings. now if you would care to share with me what you think you are talking about feel free to go ahead, because atm i have absolutely no fucking clue what you are going on about.

and this is horribly irrelevent to this discussion but apparently this is what you want to site, this is the lurker eigenbolt manual for the axe/mini. find multiple dwell settings here http://www.lurkerpb..../minimanual.pdf

and the shocker one, just because i want to pack it on.

http://www.lurkerpb....rboltmanual.pdf

big hint, try reading the manual before you try and act like someone else is an idiot.

Here's a hint as large as your mother's ass:
Maybe not dismiss something you don't know so quickly.
http://paintballgunm...mini-manual.pdf
Hint: "Dwell" and "closing dwell" are mentioned on every damn page.

[FCpaintballer]

So basically what determines the smoothness of a shot is the amount of time it takes to accelerate the paintball from 0 to 280 FPS? The longer it takes, the smoother the shot and vice versa. So therefore having a longer dwell time would create a smoother shot. Kind off like a car's frame in a crash, only with acceleration instead of deceleration. An older style car with a more rigid construction would decelerate faster in a shorter space of time, obviously causing more damage to whoever was inside. On newer model cars however, they are equipped with crumple points so that when the car strikes and object it experiences a slower deceleration over a longer period of time. Am I getting at the right idea with that comparison? Also I now realize that "shot quality" is hard to quantify because it is a factor mainly based on personal preference, some people might like the shot of a Vanguard Demon over the shot of the Luxe. So in their opinion the Demon would have better shot quality. I'm sorry for being rather ambiguous with my wording in my original post.

[Demon]

FC you are on the right track and i think you have your answer? or is something else confusing you?

and tyrone, the virtue board is the only board on the market with "closing dwell" and that is only for the invert mini, the closing dwell is simply them splitting the dwell setting into two to allow more control but it doesn't do anything. to explain to someone who doesn't know what dwell is that is completely irrelevent and it doesn't even matter because dwell is simply the time the solenoid is activated. you are adjusting the same goddamn setting, the stock boards do it in one programming but all you are doing with "closing dwell" is pretending you are adding more options for the user when in reality it is the same fucking thing.

for you to possibly understand that ALL guns have only one setting dwell, that is the time the solenoid is activated for it to do it's work of propelling the bolt etc. virtue just adds "another setting" but it is only dwell. they simply broke the dwell settings into two to help them justify someone needing a new board "for more settings" all you are going to do by bringing up the virtue board is confuse FCpaintballer.

every gun requires power to the solenoid in both directions to operate OTHERWISE NOTHING MOVES. i cannot dumb this down any further you obviously can't understand virtue is just coming up with something to say they are better, you need to understand the workings of the marker to see that dwell is the same thing, it doesn't matter what the bolt is doing, dwell is simply an ammount of time.

This post has been edited by Demon: 31 October 2012 - 06:25 PM

[Snipez4664]

Demon, on 31 October 2012 - 06:23 PM, said:

every gun requires power to the solenoid in both directions to operate OTHERWISE NOTHING MOVES. i cannot dumb this down any further you obviously can't understand virtue is just coming up with something to say they are better, you need to understand the workings of the marker to see that dwell is the same thing, it doesn't matter what the bolt is doing, dwell is simply an ammount of time.

Most are only single polarity - the mini uses a specifically designed noid that is low cost, but high quality and functions using some very interesting magnetic circuit stuff.



I tend to think of dwell as a gate opening (it isn't 1:1 with the actual valve, but directionally it's the same.)

So, you need some AMOUNT (mass flow) of air to move your bolt or whatever, right?


So, when you have longer to deliver the amount (more dwell), then at any given time you don't have to be flowing AS MUCH air to get to that volume or mass in the longer dwell period. This translates into lower LPR pressures. With less pressure at the noid (because we're running a lower dwell) you are decreasing the volume flow, and because it can't fill the space behind a ramas quickly, the assembly accelerates more slowly and with less jerkiness. That's why the Intimidator Eigenrams have added 2ms of dwell in the manual since 2006.


Shocker Eigenbolts are a bit different - they're actually pretty dwell insensitive, but since it vents the "spool/ram" section of the bolt, it saves air to not overdwell it.

Eigenrings are very complicated to explain, but basically the ring keeps the chamber pressure high, which keeps the forward biased force on the bolt higher longer. By not holding the bolt forward, you're able to save more air in the chamber than you can otherwise, because the bolt's actuation is crisper.


With the mini, the open dwell (basically the amount of time air is flowing) will help move the bolt and degas the area behind the poppet. really overdwelled settings along with velo adjuster settings over 1.5 turns out from all the way in will result is terrible efficiency because the poppet will be trying to close by flowing through the bleed hole, but the noid is not letting the closing pressure build. A minimized dwell and a backcap of 1 to 1.25 turns will result is really excellent efficiency with the eigenbolt.

[Troy]

Snipez4664, on 31 October 2012 - 10:30 PM, said:

Eigenrings are very complicated to explain, but basically the ring keeps the chamber pressure high, which keeps the forward biased force on the bolt higher longer. By not holding the bolt forward, you're able to save more air in the chamber than you can otherwise, because the bolt's actuation is crisper.

If you have time, I would like more explanation then that. I understand that as the chamber is venting, it creates a vacuum on one side of the Eigenring and pulls it to the back cap. I can understand how that would work as a way to cut off some of the air flow towards the end of the bolt's cycle (which was unneeded), but I don't understand how the ring keeps the pressure in the chamber higher during the shot. It seems to me, that as the ring moves, pressures on both sides will stay more or less the same, therefore, if pressures are the same, then, the output pressure of the bolt's chamber should be the same as well. If anything, I would think that the pressure on the side facing the back cap would be lower then the other side, because, it's dragging across the top hat in a race to equalize and it can't move at the exact speed necessary to equalize do to the force of friction exerted on the interior o-ring.

I'm, fairly, certain that you know this, and I'm missing something... obviously, I would like to know where I'm wrong.

[Snipez4664]

You kind of have to think about it in discretized steps for it to make sense. Imagine infinitely small time steps or motion steps

1. valve begins venting
2. pressure due to venting causes a pressure difference due to the ring being a large restriction
3. pressure difference causes the ring to move towards the backcap in an attempt to equalize - forget the leakby in the ring as it's not significant at the timescale of the shot itself
This motion can be though of best as an energy gradient - the air behind the ring wants to get out, but it instead drives the ring backwards, which shrinks the volume of the main chamber, and essentially dumps the energy behind the sail back into the chamber air by piston action.


Because of the in the system that drives this action, the pressure should stay higher than it otherwise would, and then drop much more quickly due to the decreased final volume.


I don't know how much of this is accurate, but I've run through it with some very smart people and I have a lot of at least anecdotal data confirming that this TYPE of effect must exist (not just efficiency, but claims of drop in velocity INCREASE, as well as the ability to lower dwell after drop in, which jives with more average forward bias force from the fuse bolt geometry)

[Troy]

That makes more sense. My problem was visualizing the ring being pulled by the vacuum as opposed to it being pushed by the air behind it.

After using it in my DM, I knew it worked... I just wasn't, exactly, sure why it did.

[tallsmallboy44]

There is WAY too much science going on in here for me to comprehend...