[cockerpunk]

'P0E, on 27 January 2011 - 06:36 PM, said:

cockerpunk, on 27 January 2011 - 02:46 PM, said:

...
well, the fundamental problem is that many things effect effienecy. right? so without either specifying or controlling all these things you test is going to have a wide variety of outcome with any given gun. i dont think there is any good way around that, but it would be interesting to take a similar setup, and use three different weigths of balls, and three different chrono speeds and see exactly how they effect the outcomes.

I don't see that as a problem. First, efficiency and the number of shots per tank are two different things. Maybe that's why we are not on the same page.

This reminds me of the accuracy tests. 'Accuracy' to most paintballers refers to the probability of hitting a given target. Unfortunately measuring that would require testing every possible target shape and size, that's impossible and unrealistic. Understandably Punkworks does the next best thing. Assume the target is always a circle and determine the target (circle) size that will result in a X % hit probability. Since your test isn't really measuring accuracy (due to reasonable limitations) I've always thought it more pragmatic to have a different name. Circular Target Impact Probability Test? CTIP?

Your efficiency test is in a similar situation in that it isn't measuring efficiency, it's measuring number of shots per set of variables. If it was possible to measure accuracy for any given target shape/size, we could take that data and apply it to any given target/range to determine the probability of impact. Measuring efficiency (instead of number of shots per set of variables) is much the same. We could take a system's efficiency then apply system changes to reasonably calculate the new number of shots or make comparisons.

What are all the factors that effect system efficiency?
Energy out of the tank - measurable
Energy invested in the paintballs - measurable

What are all the factors that effect number of shots per tank changes?
System efficiency (measured from above)
Barrel changes
Gun changes
Regulator changes
Tank changes
Rate of fire changes
Ambient Temperature changes
Paintball changes
- all quantifiable

Thanks to your extensive barrel testing we know how to extrapolate system efficiency changes based on barrel changes. e.g. If a12" long 0.007" underbore was used during the system efficiency test we know using a different barrel wouldn't gain any substantial efficiency or consistency. We can get that same insight into regulator, ROF, temperature, etc changes down the road. If you were to operate backwards and measure number of shots per partially known set of variables, the results could not be used to make comparisons since the variables were not held constant. In this case Energy expelled via ball mass and velocity.

Thank you for commenting on this.

i'd argue that all those lower variables listed effects SYSTEM efficiency. if you can get a 30fps swing in velocity just due to barrel alone, that most certainly effects both efficiency and shots per tank.

[Steephill]

I tried reading this thread, and it hurt my brain.

[bigschank]

Im just waiting to see the protege results

[brycelarson]

bigschank, on 27 January 2011 - 11:09 PM, said:

Im just waiting to see the protege results

me too. need to get more paint.

and Poe and Gordon - I do think we're talking around each other. The LSET is designed to give a number - that number is "shots per 1000 psi per inch^3" the second half gives "shots below 1000 psi per inch^3" Both of those are only talking about a particular set up. Think of the test more as a way to tune your gun than as something you would put in an ad. In this case we were changing one variable - the tank reg and repeating the test with as identical rigs as is practical. Same barrel, same gun, same settings, same bag of paint.

Poe - I agree in principle that recording more data about the test conditions is almost always a good thing - but in this case my main goal when developing the test was to keep it simple and easy to apply.

[brycelarson]

'P0E, on 26 January 2011 - 12:58 PM, said:

Absolute test
To measure efficiency all that's needed is energy input and energy output. Energy input is easy. It's just starting tank pressure minus ending tank pressure multiplied by tank volume. Temperature can be used to scale it as needed. Since most tests will only vary by 40F(10% or +/-5%), it's not really needed and can just be contributed to error.

Energy out is just the sum of each ball's energy. Use half the average mass times the square of each shot velocity.

Once ball fit (e.g. +0.002" underbore) and air supply is defined, you have the perfect efficiency test. Any tank at any pressure can be used. Any barrel can be used and (pulling from your previous barrel tests) we can make safe assumptions regarding changes. No other significant variables are missing.

back to your question from a while ago - the only hole I see in your proposed perfect efficiency test is the paint itself. Since there's usually a >.005 variation ball to ball in size I don't think regular paint will work for an absolute test. They're claiming +/- .003 on the Hydrotech balls - maybe they would give us a better projectile for this test. It's even possible that mass variations will be small enough that they'll give us a good shot at applying the LSET in a more universal way.

[Spider200081]

ninjapaintball, on 26 January 2011 - 05:44 PM, said:

Spider200081, on 26 January 2011 - 12:20 AM, said:

The SLP does work fine for dm's and ego's right? Just curious since I might be interested in getting a g6r and needing a new tank now would possibly get a slp aslong as it works fine with ego and dm markers. Well basically any 2 reg marker.

have not heard about the dms but we think no. we have shoot it on an ego and it was OK but would stick to the g6r and the victorys.

thanks ray

[OOG671]

Awesome read even though I didn't understand all the statistical stuff....hey...I barely passed statistics in college like 10+ years ago.

One thing for sure...the G6R is hella efficient and regardless of which Ninja tank your using....an additional 90+ shots on a 68/4500 could be a life saver to some people....

also...this test and others makes me happy that I supported the Punkworks Sticker/Raffle drawing...4 more days people...not too late to send some money to Punkworks to support their work...get cool stickers...and get entered into a raffle drawing for some cool stuff.