[Empire91]

First off, you're not getting 50% more shots. You're getting about a third more. Not sure how not doubling the pressure leads to doubling the shots. Secondly, not sure what extra net costs a steely incurs over a carbon fiber tank. You have to hydro test both of them either way. And this is a budget baller category. If you're on a budget, you aren't going to be looking for tournament grade stuff. Plus, this gear works just fine, and will allow someone to play pretty comfortably. Here's just a quick comparison without a gun, because any gun will work in this scenario.


Mask: V Force ProVantage 34.00$--------------V Force Profilers 70.00$
Tank: Guerrilla Air 62/3000 40.00$--------------Standard Empire 68/4500 140.00$
Total: 74.00$------------------------------------------------210.00$

That's money that can be put towards other things. And since the people that would be looking at buying this are on a budget, it's safe to say that they won't be shooting massive amounts of paint. A 68/3000 tank can get about 840 shots when using an average efficient gun. Granted, a 68/4500 can get around 1,200 but honestly, what budget baller is going to be shooting over half a case per game? That wouldn't be practical. So, aside from being a bit heavier, I don't see how for a budget baller you can say the steely will be less advantageous than the CF tank.

This post has been edited by Empire91: 03 May 2012 - 02:18 PM

[Lotus]

Having 50% more air is 50% more shots. If you do the math, a 68/4500 carbon fiber tank actually holds over twice as much air and therefore twice as much shots as a 48/3000 tank. It's math. The only reason I said slightly over 50% was because I was comparing a 50/4500 to a 48/3000.

Net cost is factoring in resale. It doesn't exist for steelies, it does for carbon fiber. It's all clearly explained in English in my previous posts.

You have your view of budget and I have mine. I believe you are giving poor advice considering paintball is an amazing game that people generally like to stick with, and therefore initial purchases actually are almost inconsequential compared to the continual expenses of field fees, paint, gas, food, and whatnot. Again that's also explained in the post. I can run the math for you if you'd like to show you just how small of an expense it is proportionally, and yet it makes a significant and noticeable difference on the field.

Again the biggest waste of money and most non-budget thing to do is to replace gear with "upgrades." That's why I'll never advise anyone buying something that they'll want to change later. I will always advise them to hit that critical point of performance.

edit: You want someone to skimp on a mask, really?

Someone is spending hundreds of dollars on a setup, and therefore hundreds of dollars on regular expenses like field fees, gas, paint, etc, and you recommend they save $35 to skimp on their mask? The single most important item they own?

This post has been edited by Lotus: 03 May 2012 - 03:10 PM

[Empire91]

Lotus, on 03 May 2012 - 03:00 PM, said:

Having 50% more air is 50% more shots. If you do the math, a 68/4500 carbon fiber tank actually holds over twice as much air and therefore twice as much shots as a 48/3000 tank. It's math. The only reason I said slightly over 50% was because I was comparing a 50/4500 to a 48/3000.

Net cost is factoring in resale. It doesn't exist for steelies, it does for carbon fiber. It's all clearly explained in English in my previous posts.

You have your view of budget and I have mine. I believe you are giving poor advice considering paintball is an amazing game that people generally like to stick with, and therefore initial purchases actually are almost inconsequential compared to the continual expenses of field fees, paint, gas, food, and whatnot. Again that's also explained in the post. I can run the math for you if you'd like to show you just how small of an expense it is proportionally, and yet it makes a significant and noticeable difference on the field.

Again the biggest waste of money and most non-budget thing to do is to replace gear with "upgrades." That's why I'll never advise anyone buying something that they'll want to change later. I will always advise them to hit that critical point of performance.

edit: You want someone to skimp on a mask, really?

Someone is spending hundreds of dollars on a setup, and therefore hundreds of dollars on regular expenses like field fees, gas, paint, etc, and you recommend they save $35 to skimp on their mask? The single most important item they own?

You're comparing two extremely different tanks. I don't see the logic in comparing a 48 ci tank to a 68 ci tank. Of course you'll get more shots off the 68. You'd get more shots off a 68/4500 even when comparing it to 48/4500. And you're not doubling the pressure, you're increasing it by a third. Unless 3,000 X 2 now equals 4500.

If people stick with the sport like you suggest later, then why would net cost factor in at all then? If they're budget ballers, chances are they're not whoring around gear. So if they keep playing with a tank, and keep getting it hydro tested, they shouldn't have a problem with trying to sell it because they will never need to. After you play with a steely for a couple of games, the weight doesn't even come into effect. You're not going to pick up a CF tank after playing with an aluminium one and increase your skill so much as to say, "wow, I really need a Carbon tank now."

Increasing your initial investment only decreases the amount of money you are able to spend on playing the game itself. So if you spend an extra I don't know, 300 dollars, well then that's 6 maybe seven cases of paint you could have bought, but instead, you went for minimal performance increases. Paintball is fun, but it's not fun when you have all that fancy new gear but no money to actually go out and play.

So when they get their 200 dollar Extcy, they're not going to want to change it shortly down the road? Like say, put the Blackheart board in it?

Where did I say skimp on a mask? Unless you are in some way insinuating that the ProVantage is a shitty mask? First question is, have you ever used one? Because if you haven't, then how are you even qualified to comment on it? Second thing is, the ProVantage offers the same benefits from any of the other masks out there. There's a quick change lens system, it comes with a visor, thermal lenses are available. (It doesn't come with them, but neither do the Profilers) It doesn't fog, and it provides plenty of protection for even people with big faces without being too bulky. Why spend the extra 35 dollars when you have a mask that is just as capable.

[NPpballer]

Empire91, on 27 April 2012 - 03:32 PM, said:

I mean, if you want HPA and you can't afford Carbon Fiber, they work just as well. They're just a little heavier.

Because exactly that, they're a cheap gateway into a real CF tank. Then you either have a $60 tank laying around or you sell it for $20.

I saw some crazy shit at the field last weekend. We always split up beginners and regulars so they don't get over shot. Well a lot of the kids with entry level electros wanted to go with the beginner group because theyve only played once or twice in their life.

I liked that you emphasized on the will to keep playing. Paintball's a huge investment, and it's not worth it for just a year or two of play.

[Lotus]

Empire, I honestly think you're missing the forest for the trees. I believe you're describing people who I would place in my second category: people I would tell to just rent and not even buy their own setup. In which case I would advise them not to spend their money and instead save it to play. Again my belief is that if you can't afford what I consider the minimum critical point, you should rent. I had thought you would understand that.

With regards to the mask, that's the one thing I recommend a splurge on. It's your mask. The single most important piece of equipment you own. Adequate isn't good enough in my opinion. A VForce ProVantage is fine for someone in my first categry (the sub $150 or doesn't know if they want to stick with it), but I wouldn't recommend that mask for someone who is going to stick with paintball for a very long time. Again, skimping on a mask is not something I ever condone, unless you're in group #1. And yes, the VForce ProVantage is not the best mask. It's skimping. Hell even the manufacturer acknowledges that.

The GoG G1 is there because it's only a net extra cost of $15 when you get the blackheart board down the road, and you end up with a marker basically equivalent to the extcy. If that's the difference between renting and not, well at that point using it just once pays for itself and with zero downside. The same cannot be said for the examples you are giving out.

All of this is easily spelled out in the original post. The setup you describe is functional, yes. An Azodin Blitz with an Invert Halo TOO, VForce ProVantage, and 48/3000 tank isn't actually something I would mind using on the field. I'd be glad to, but only for specific situations. However this is for budget ballers. At that level I'd rather just save money and rent until I could reach my critical point. If you don't stick with it, then you wasted money. If you do, every paintball player I've met with a setup like that is always talking about what they want to "upgrade" and that's definitely not budget friendly. Again, this is all in the original post.

Also, with regards to tank capacity, do math. 4500 divided by 3000 is 1.5, not 1.33. 4500 is 50% more than 3000. Also I am well aware that comparing a 68 to a 48 may not be strictly fair, which is why in my original example I compared it to a 50/4500. Even so, I still believe it to be valid as those are the typical sizes. Most people buying steel tanks get 48/3000, and most people buying carbon fiber tanks get 68/4500.

I don't like repeating myself, especially when all of these responses can be predicted by simply reading my original post.

This post has been edited by Lotus: 03 May 2012 - 08:28 PM

[Empire91]

As you said, you don't like repeating yourself, and neither do I. We're gonna keep spinning our wheels here sir. So I will respectfully bow out. I don't admit defeat though

Also, that's my bad on the math. I'm on pain pills from a root canal, but I shouldn't be that dumb.

This post has been edited by Empire91: 03 May 2012 - 08:34 PM

[Lotus]

Props man. I feel like I just lost...