[MondoMor]

I've finally had time to take apart my brand new Ninja reg and compare it to my PE. The parts seem to be interchangeable, and the pistons measure within about .001" on diameters, and about .004" in overall length. The only significant differences I can find are:

1) Ninja is shorter due to some internal passage differences
2) Ninja reg piston is brass (light!) vs. PE reg's stainless steel (heavy)
3) Ninja reg uses a coiled spring vs. the PE reg's belleville stack.
4) Ninja bonnet is slightly shorter and has a shorter pin valve.
5) Ninja spring cavity is slightly shallower, which precompresses the spring as the bonnet is installed(hence the need for the bonnet tool) So you'd have to add a couple red shims if you wanted to "Ninjafy" your PE reg by buying the Ninja piston, spring, bonnet and pin valve.

I've put the PE together with Ninja internals and the Ninja together with PE internals and there doesn't seem to be any reason why either configuration wouldn't work. Heck, the bonnets seem to be interchangeable. Same dimensions, same threads.

I don't have a set of small pin gauges, but I suspect even the base hole (through which the tank air is metered into the pressure-controlled volume, and on which the seal on the small end of the piston rests) is the same diameter. This would make the pressure ratio the same, and both regs ought to have similar in:out ratios, which they do.

Makes me wonder if the PE reg's dismal creep performance was due to a crappy piston base seal.


Edit: One huge plus on the Ninja side is the really long set of threads going into the tank. The PE engages about .6" worth of threads while the Ninja extends nearly a full inch. More threads = more safety.

This post has been edited by MondoMor: 21 August 2009 - 08:49 PM

[Lament]

MondoMor, on Aug 21 2009, 05:38 PM, said:

I've finally had time to take apart my brand new Ninja reg and compare it to my PE. The parts seem to be interchangeable, and the pistons measure within about .001" on diameters, and about .004" in overall length. The only significant differences I can find are:

1) Ninja is shorter due to some internal passage differences
2) Ninja reg piston is brass (light!) vs. PE reg's stainless steel (heavy)
3) Ninja reg uses a coiled spring vs. the PE reg's belleville stack.
4) Ninja bonnet is slightly shorter and has a shorter pin valve.
5) Ninja spring cavity is slightly shallower, which precompresses the spring as the bonnet is installed(hence the need for the bonnet tool) So you'd have to add a couple red shims if you wanted to "Ninjafy" your PE reg by buying the Ninja piston, spring, bonnet and pin valve.

I've put the PE together with Ninja internals and the Ninja together with PE internals and there doesn't seem to be any reason why either configuration wouldn't work. Heck, the bonnets seem to be interchangeable. Same dimensions, same threads.

I don't have a set of small pin gauges, but I suspect even the base hole (through which the tank air is metered into the pressure-controlled volume, and on which the seal on the small end of the piston rests) is the same diameter. This would make the pressure ratio the same, and both regs ought to have similar in:out ratios, which they do.

Makes me wonder if the PE reg's dismal creep performance was due to a crappy piston base seal.


Edit: One huge plus on the Ninja side is the really long set of threads going into the tank. The PE engages about .6" worth of threads while the Ninja extends nearly a full inch. More threads = more safety.

Understand, PSI (Ninja) used to make the PE regs. Not knowing which reg they used, it may have been a PSI made one, a Chinese clone (PE went to China to have the regs made for them to their specks, but cheaper), or a newer Reactor reg, which is also of Chinese manufacture. This is part of my problem with this, as cool and good as it is, there is not enough information on the part of Bryce and CP. We don't know if they were new, used, or what. If they were used, how long had they been used? That may have been a part of why the Myth reg was so inconsistent. We don't know.

Further, I would have liked to have seen all of the tanks filled to 4500 PSI, not 2750/2900 PSI, and check the output pressure of each reg at consistent intervals, not at varied intervals, like 2000/1950/2100 or 900/950/1000/1100/1150. Plus, I would have loved to see them do this five times with each tank, with an interval of like five minutes between each fill, to let things settle on them. They could have posted up the readings each time that they did it, and then given an average over the five times.

This post has been edited by Lament: 21 August 2009 - 09:41 PM

[MondoMor]

That's a good point. The reg I was comparing the Ninja to was a vintage '04 PE reg.

[sticktodrum]

Lament, on Aug 21 2009, 10:40 PM, said:

This is part of my problem with this, as cool and good as it is, there is not enough information on the part of Bryce and CP. We don't know if they were new, used, or what. If they were used, how long had they been used? That may have been a part of why the Myth reg was so inconsistent. We don't know.

Further, I would have liked to have seen all of the tanks filled to 4500 PSI, not 2750/2900 PSI, and check the output pressure of each reg at consistent intervals, not at varied intervals, like 2000/1950/2100 or 900/950/1000/1100/1150. Plus, I would have loved to see them do this five times with each tank, with an interval of like five minutes between each fill, to let things settle on them. They could have posted up the readings each time that they did it, and then given an average over the five times.

You know that you could do these tests (and any of the Punkworks tests) yourself. Whenever there is something you don't like, or something you want to see, then the best way is to repeat the procedure yourself. That's what works about scientific testing. The idea is to try and reproduce the results.

I can't imagine it would be that difficult to gather all of the samples you want to see. Go for it.

[brycelarson]

None of our tests is perfect. No test ever is.

We get a million suggestions on what we could have done - how we could have improved, how we fucked up etc. We certainly listen to all of those and try to improve our methods every time we do a test.

I take your suggestions as just that - fair and constructive criticism. That said, I see no reason that our test results aren't valid.

I agree with STD (your name is funny when abbreviated ) - if you would like to further investigate this - feel free. It's not a difficult test. None of our tests are. We always make sure to show how we set up and perform our tests for just that reason - to allow anyone who has more interest in something a chance to repeat or improve on what we've started.

Some tests are fascinating and I can't wait to do more complete or more thorough versions - some tests, well, I couldn't give two craps about the results. This one falls in the middle. My 45/45 (Dye Throttle we tested) works just fine for me. It tested on the acceptable end of things and that's just fine. All of the guns I use it with have an in-line reg, so the moderate output changes don't really cause any problems. I think the Ninja regs are impressive and I think that there is a trade-off in the design of the Myth.

I now know these things - so when my tank is out of hydro in two years I'll re-read this data and make a choice.

[pbjunky126]

with the myth reg jumping like that in the vid it might have a defective piston, like mine did. contact ga to see for sure

[brycelarson]

pbjunky126, on Aug 21 2009, 11:22 PM, said:

with the myth reg jumping like that in the vid it might have a defective piston, like mine did. contact ga to see for sure

what was the symptom of your defective piston?

[Lament]

sticktodrum, on Aug 21 2009, 08:50 PM, said:

Lament, on Aug 21 2009, 10:40 PM, said:

This is part of my problem with this, as cool and good as it is, there is not enough information on the part of Bryce and CP. We don't know if they were new, used, or what. If they were used, how long had they been used? That may have been a part of why the Myth reg was so inconsistent. We don't know.

Further, I would have liked to have seen all of the tanks filled to 4500 PSI, not 2750/2900 PSI, and check the output pressure of each reg at consistent intervals, not at varied intervals, like 2000/1950/2100 or 900/950/1000/1100/1150. Plus, I would have loved to see them do this five times with each tank, with an interval of like five minutes between each fill, to let things settle on them. They could have posted up the readings each time that they did it, and then given an average over the five times.

You know that you could do these tests (and any of the Punkworks tests) yourself. Whenever there is something you don't like, or something you want to see, then the best way is to repeat the procedure yourself. That's what works about scientific testing. The idea is to try and reproduce the results.

I can't imagine it would be that difficult to gather all of the samples you want to see. Go for it.

Got $$$? Between getting the regs, and tanks, as well as the gauges (I have the nice cheapy $5 32 Degrees that I recently received that can help), I don't have the money to spend on getting all of these things. I can do what I can do with what I have, which is my GA 68/4500, my Pure Energy 68/4500 with Myth reg, a Pure Energy 88/4500 with Ninja reg, a Pure Energy 68/4500 with what I believe to be a PSI made reg (It has the Made in USA and Pat. Pending numbers), and a generic reged (I believe another PSI made one) 48/4500. I also have a JT 50/3000 with what looks to be another generic PSI made reg made for JT. My gauges are only so accurate, since I am using the stock gauges that come with the tanks, and a cheapy 0-1200 PSI gauge. I can say that the two Myths have a year and a year and a half of use on them, but I would call it fairly light use, and the Ninja and generic one on the 48/4500 are both brand new, never been used. Beyond that, the rest are used, but anyone's guess as to how much.

I guess that I expected a bit more. My bad, not your fault or anything of the like Bryce. You guys have a wonderful reputation for going out and figuring things out, but I guess that I expected a bit more, like giving us info like if they are used or new, size of the tanks, maybe even using the exact same tank, but with each reg, and some better consistency.

[Scheele]

So pretty much, this test is completely non-conclusive? I think that there are too many things that need to be accounted for. Doing a full reg vs. reg test is going to take mucha $$$ for a good sample of new regs from each manufacturer.

I am actually really interested in a comparison of PSI made PE tanks and China made PE tanks. I have a suspicion that the China tanks are not as much worse as assumed and that most issues arise from cheap burst disks.

[sticktodrum]

I don't think Bryce or Gordon have that much money either. They do the best they can with what they've got, much like you. I'd say that it's unfair to expect more from anyone doing this at their own expense, than you would expect from yourself. You sound like you've got plenty, so why not give it a shot?

[brycelarson]

yeah, sorry if I get snarky - it's a sore point. We have a ton of armchair testers who seem to think we owe them something. We know that our tests aren't perfect - no test is. Yes, there might be a way to do a better test - but with the resources we have I feel that this test is valid.

As to chinese regs being different than american regs - why would that be true? they're building them to the same specifications - right? they're using the same designs - right?

If anyone ever thinks they can do a better test - DO IT. I'm not saying that it's hard to do better tests than we do - because it's certainly not. I'm actually asking people to step up and get involved.

Lord Odin is a perfect example. He has different equipment and different questions - so he devises his own tests and conducts them.

The only way we can test everything that everyone wants to see is if all of the people who jump on the forums and bitch about what we did wrong get off their lazy asses and try a test. Just one. Just try one. If 10% of the people that read this board and watched our videos did a test - doesn't matter how poorly designed or executed - but if just %10 of those people did a test the general pool of paintball science knowledge would double overnight.

The answer to the age and condition of the regs - PMI, Myth, Crossfire, Dye - used, cleaned and serviced right before test. Ninja - couple of cases through it.

Tanks - 45/45 on the Dye and 68/3000 on all the rest.

[cockerpunk]

the reason we didn't go to 4500 is we dont have a gauge that goes up to 4500. our best gauge only goes up to 3000.

i dont consider this so much a reg vs reg brand test, i consider this a reg design and capably test. we see in the field of regs we used, about 5 different designs, and we evaluated how good each one proved to be. looking at the results i can see which functions of which regs lead to the failure and successes in each category.

now, form this test i dont think the conclusion is "dont buy a PE or ga reg" i think it is more along the lines of, "the myth regs design compromises perhaps to greatly, the trade off between size and consistency provided with longer springs."

keep in mind we did this test for the science, not for "consumer reports"

on the whole i was pleasantly surprised by most of the regulators, they all performed on the input:output test much better then i had thought they would.

[Lament]

Excellent to know a few more details about the tanks and regs. That actually really helps alot. I just want to make sure that I am getting this correct then:

The first part of the test was to fill the tank to a set pressure, for ease, we will say 3000 PSI, and let it sit for five minutes while taking readings of the output pressure?

The second part of the test was to take the tanks at a high enough pressure, and take an initial output pressure reading, and then drop it down and take another reading of the output pressure?

Given that I don't have the gauges that you guys have, those are a pretty enough penny that I have yet to spend to get, I can do that relatively soon, if not this weekend. Hmmmm....

[brycelarson]

Lament, on Aug 22 2009, 10:07 AM, said:

Excellent to know a few more details about the tanks and regs. That actually really helps alot. I just want to make sure that I am getting this correct then:

The first part of the test was to fill the tank to a set pressure, for ease, we will say 3000 PSI, and let it sit for five minutes while taking readings of the output pressure?

The second part of the test was to take the tanks at a high enough pressure, and take an initial output pressure reading, and then drop it down and take another reading of the output pressure?

Given that I don't have the gauges that you guys have, those are a pretty enough penny that I have yet to spend to get, I can do that relatively soon, if not this weekend. Hmmmm....

pretty close. sort of the opposite direction. we installed the gauges, filled to 1000 - checked output, filled to 2000, checked output, filled to 2950, checked output. Then we bled down to 2500, fired the gun to clear the reg and that started our 5 minute sample of creep.

all of the pressures we approximate - we were looking for the curve for each - not a specific comparison. This gives us a good idea about how linear each reg design is - which is the real question.

[Kitty]

I am gonna have one of the new Myths sent to Bryce and Gordon next week..
Lets see if that ones any better

[brycelarson]

Kitty, on Aug 22 2009, 06:52 PM, said:

I am gonna have one of the new Myths sent to Bryce and Gordon next week..
Lets see if that ones any better

coolio. It's a pretty easy test - so gathering another set of regs wouldn't be too bad.

[CrazyLittle]

Lament wanted me to crack the stems on those two that I sent you. Are you guys done with them yet or how much longer do you need them?

[cockerpunk]

PM me your addy Crazy, we dont need these regs anymore.

[Lament]

Kitty, on Aug 22 2009, 04:52 PM, said:

I am gonna have one of the new Myths sent to Bryce and Gordon next week..
Lets see if that ones any better

Wait! But, you are almost anti-GA.....

Not fair.

Must be nice to have a bit of a change with GA now. They not only give you the time of day, but they give you the new spiffy reg too.

[pbjunky126]

brycelarson, on Aug 21 2009, 11:24 PM, said:

pbjunky126, on Aug 21 2009, 11:22 PM, said:

with the myth reg jumping like that in the vid it might have a defective piston, like mine did. contact ga to see for sure

what was the symptom of your defective piston?

mine just over pressureized till the macroline burst, but it could have a dif defect that effected this.

This post has been edited by pbjunky126: 24 August 2009 - 09:37 PM