[canscom]

Yep people here love em

[OEFVeteran]

i would love to get my hands on a couple for that price... then flip all but one here in the states...

now to see if i can purchase in canada and return back to the states with a rifle

[Watcher]

TheGuy, on 28 November 2012 - 10:41 PM, said:

Just a dumb question to get a discussion going...

Whats would theoretically be better for a zombie apocalypse? An AR or AK platform?

Im thinking AR because of the lighter ammo and better accuracy. Reliability really wouldn't be an issue as I know how to maintain firearms.

For the sake of arguements, lets say the AR is in the common 5.56 nato and the AK is in the common 7.62x39 russian.

In the US of A, AR definitely. If for no other reason, then because of availability. Every shop here has 'em, tons of people have 'em, and ammo is everywhere!
Also, being very similar to the military issued rifles and sharing ammunition/magazines, it is easy to scavenge after military installations are run over.

More positives are a relatively light weight, low recoil (to accommodate young and female shooters), decent precision, high velocity round, and if you are fighting zombies then stopping power is moot since all you have to do is pierce the skull.


In a zompocalypse I doubt very much you'll be crawling through the mud and other nastiness with your weapon so reliability when fouled shouldn't be an issue. Even so, cleaning kits are small, light, and common and you should never be without a backup gun.



In Russia or other continents where the AK is more prominent, it, of course, would be a better choice for many of the same reasons. However, given an equal choice between the two the AR will prove the better system.

Me? I'll take a Ruger SR556. Gas piston means it should run more reliably with neglect compared to a DI gun, and it is arguably easier to clean since all you have to do is open the gas-key and clean off the piston inside.
Also on my hip would be my Buckmark .22lr and dropped down on my leg would be my Ruger SR1911 in case I'm facing uninfected targets...


Now if we are talking a SHTF situation, not necessarily zombies, then my ideas change a bit. You need to make sure you can drop a man sized target with ease who may or may not be wearing body armor, and you might be rolling around in filth if the situation dictates it is necessary.
You could argue pros and cons to either system now and never get anywhere. It's very situational and locational.
Are you defending a homestead?
Are you assaulting?
Are you doing recon?
Are you just passing through?
Are you with a group or are you solo?


An AK shines in a heavier bullet with greater "stopping power" on an unprotected target, in neglect (long haul, may never shoot it until you have to), in simplicity (handing off to untrained users), and in ruggedness.
The AR shines in commonality, availability, weight, and accuracy.

In a urban setting, in a group, or traveling by vehicle go AR. In rural setting, alone, or "hoofing it", go AK.
The AR is more maneuverable, more capable of penetration, and protected from the elements in a vehicle. The AK is more abusable, quicker/simpler to maintain, will more likely drop larger game than an AR, and in a pinch can be used as an effective tool for many tasks you may find in the wild.

I'd take the best of both, a Mini-30. Simple action, reliable when dirty, can take a lot of neglect, solid as a tank, and shoots the 7.62x39.



Of the guns I own, though, I'd have to take my Mossberg 590A1.
It is a little on the heavy side, especially with ammo, but being able to shoot any 2-3/4 to 3" 12gauge shotgun shell is a plus, it's small enough to be maneuverable, simple enough to straight up abuse if need be, and depending on load I can hunt any game in North-America as well as defend myself quite easily.
Run #8 quail shot and pick up some birds, run 00 Buck and drop me a Bambi, or run a rifled-slug and take out my attacker at 100+ yards




Off topic, got a Wilson Combat guide-rod and some new VZ grips for my SR1911.



They are a lot lighter than I thought they would be when I ordered them, so I'm debating keeping them.

If anyone likes 'em, shoot me a PM. Maybe we can do business

This post has been edited by Watcher: 30 November 2012 - 10:09 PM

[OEFVeteran]

i am jsut going to put this out there for you all to consider... over seas in Afghanistan i saw more AK's jam and malfunction then i did M4's and M16's... why? because the AR system is better sealed then the AK system and grime and filth that builds up in the ak's open reciever (the dust cover us useless in the desert) were as the M4 lers much less dust and carp into the reciever with the dust cover closed...

here is something else to consider... the AK and AR are not the only semi auto combat rifles out there...
yes, there are more AR carriants then any other rifle in existence, but there are better rifles out there then the AR...

not necessarily better, but here is a list of rifles to consider
Sig 551/552/556
HK G36 series (if you can find it)
FNH SCAR platform (my personal preference)
M1a/M14 (second choice)
Mini-14
SKS
FNH FS2k
Styer AUG
just to name a few...

here is what you need to consider when picking an SHTF weapon, and this is an across the board guide line, not a z-day vs. governmental collapse/invasion/civil war situation...

reliability... how many rounds can said rifle platform shoot before the first failure without cleaning....
Maintenance... how often do you need to give your weapon TLC and how long does it take...
Operating system... DI, OP-rob, short stroke piston, long stroke piston, gas tappet (short stroke impact tappet)
availability of spare parts/cross comparability of parts from other guns
strength of materials used, how much abuse can the rifle take before it or any part of it fails
ammo selection, how easy will it be for you to stockpile ammo and find ammo once your supplies are gone
effective range, accuracy and control of weapon under both slow and higher rates of fire

stopping power isnt all its cracked up to be... yes, it would be nice to stop a man dead in his tracks with one shot... but, if you are going to be protecting yourself, you train to shoot center mass, also called the death box... even a .22 will kill if you hit between the nipples... stopping power is a moot point if your rifle and round are accurate enough to put multiple rounds on target in a tight group... a 5.56 nato M855 ball round will go though most non SAPI plate armor on the market...

when defending yourself, head shots and center mass are where you want to aim, so make sure your rifle exceedes your abilities to hit out to a safe distance of 300 yards (0-300 yards is considered close range, 300-600 is mid range, anything past 600 is long range) remember the AR platform is a sub MOA rifle, the AK47 is not, the AK platform is a minute of man rifle, it will only be as accurate as you are...

my reasoning for choosing the SCAR as my go to weapon... with 5.56 M855 ball ammo i can drop any game in North America out to 500 yards, yes, even bull moose and grizzlies will drop from a 5.56 round if shot placement is right... i can also attest to M855 ball ammo piercing 1/4 thick steel plate... so, i kno that i will be able to hit my target and drop them without issue as long as they are not in a heavily armored vehicle or behind a concrete wall... if for some reason i dont get a single shot kill then the SCAR is smooth enough where my sights dont come off target under rapid fire and i can put a few more rounds into the target without major adjustment... for example, i put 30 rounds into the 10 ring of a zero target at 25m with iron sights shoot 2-3 rounds per second without my irons coming off target....

the rifle itself.. the parts are for the most proof way over built.. the BCG is indestructible under military abuse, the only real weak point is the stock... its over all compact, and its a match grade millspec rifle, its more accurate then i will ever be, though i have it man sized "green ivan" targets at 500 yards with it, center mass and head... it accepts all 1913 rail accessories... as far as the reliability of the rifle, FN tested it to 20k rounds without cleaning out the gas tappet and cicnt have a single malfunction... cleaning and take down is easy, one pin andi can field strip it... takes 10 minutes to clean then put back together....

ammo and magazines... 5.56 NATO and .223 work in this rifle, and are easily found and inexpensive as far as rifle ammo goes... all i use are STANG magazines (i dont trust polymer mags, or any magpul magazine) so finding magazines will be a breeze if needed...

the rifle is fully functioning with the stock folded to the side, which also makes it compact for hauling it in my pack if i need to... a fully loaded 30rd mag with m855 is 1.12 lbs if i remember correctly... thats ammo and mag... so weight wise i can carry more mags then any 7.62 caliber, more ammo/pound is a huge plus in my book

everyone has thier own reasons for choosing their go to gun... i thought long and hard on the SCAR, compared it to custom AK's, gas piston AR's, the ACR and Sig556.... and in the end the SCAR jsut beat them all out for what i wanted out of a rifle... i can take both man and beast and not have to worry about malfunctions and cleaning or heavy ammo loads

[Watcher]

OEFVeteran, on 30 November 2012 - 11:00 PM, said:

i am jsut going to put this out there for you all to consider... over seas in Afghanistan i saw more AK's jam and malfunction then i did M4's and M16's... why? because the AR system is better sealed then the AK system and grime and filth that builds up in the ak's open reciever (the dust cover us useless in the desert) were as the M4 lers much less dust and carp into the reciever with the dust cover closed...

here is something else to consider... the AK and AR are not the only semi auto combat rifles out there...
yes, there are more AR varriants then any other rifle in existence, but there are better rifles out there then the AR...

True, not all systems are infallible or hold up the same in certain environments, and not all systems are completely free from maintenance. An AK completely lacking in care for an extended period WILL fail. Let's not be blind, here.
Also true, the loose tolerances and design of the AK warrants the ability to tolerate dirt and grime when compared to other systems. Not to say the receiver is better at keeping things out, but the system is more tolerant.


I was only comparing the two because that was the topic of the subject. The question was that in a zompocalypse would an AR or AK be better?




Yeah stopping power isn't what people say it is. I'd hope we all aren't naive. However, simple physics says that the bigger the round the harder the hit.
Every cartridge can kill in one hit, and every cartridge can fail to kill in certain circumstances. Shot placement has more to do with lethality than the round.

That being said, the bigger the round the more trauma, the more trauma the more likely to be lethal, and the more likely to be lethal the less critical shot placement is.

Is the 5.56 effective? Hell yes! Many years of combat have proved it.
Is the 7.62 effective? Hell yes! Many years of combat have proved it.

But for strategically different reasons...



Also, as far as the whole "minute of man" concept, if the rifle is at least as accurate as you are that is all that matters, right? Who cares if it is bullseye accurate at 3 miles, as long as it can hit center of mass at X range when you want it to hit center of mass at X range then it's accurate enough.
Having laser like accuracy is nice, but is it really necessary?
As long as you know your weapon, train with your weapon, and can hit consistently at your likely engagement ranges then you are squared away.

This post has been edited by Watcher: 01 December 2012 - 12:40 AM

[OEFVeteran]

the size of the round does not determine the amount of damage it will cause... at least not in all cases... all bullets create 2 types of wounds... a temporary wound cavity (caused by cavitation) and the wound tract... the temp wound cavity is caused when the energy of the bullet displaces fluid in the body and causes soft tissue damage... the wound tract is simply the hole punched into the target and the tissue displaced by the bullet itself... a higher velocity round will cause more cavitation upon impact and create a larger temp wound cavity... while the 7.62x39r bullet will do more damage fromteh bullet itself, the 5.56 NATO will create a bigger temp cavity... all because of the speed the bullet travels... now, a bullet like the .30-06 and .50BMG have the velocity to create huge temp wound cavities... the concept of stopping power is more for round impact on a hard target... if your target is wearing body armor, a bigger round will impart more energy into the armor plate and cause the person to stop... a smaller round, esp steel core rounds, tend to be through and through rounds....

one of the reasons the US switched to 5.56 is its high velocity and its ability to penetrate non ceramic body armor... there has been testing done on intermediate calibers, like 6.8SPC, that have proven to be better then 5.56, but at a heavier weight per round for the soldier...

think about this... and i cant remember exactly which hospital did the study, i want to say it was either a NYC or Chicago hospital, but they compiled nation wide data on gun shot victims and they found that out of the 20% of survivable wounds the majority were larger caliber, where as out of the majority of fatalities were smaller calibers with 2 or more hits... more hits on target with 9mm proves to be more lethal then 1 hit with .45acp... which is why the military still uses a 9mm side arm with a 15 rd mag... more potential hits on target to ensure the target goes down...

i get what you are saying, and i am not knocking the AK or AR platform at all, or anyone's decision between the two... and i wasnt directing anything at you, just providing another view point...

my experience with the AK (even in the hands of a professional soldier) is that it will jam and corrode sooner in dusty environments... the reason the AK is able to cycle through most dirt and grime when an AR cant isnt becuase of the loose tolerances in the receiver... its becuase it uses a gas op-rod to cycle the BCG... less carbon fowling in the receiver means that the bolt group will move more easily along its contact points... where as a DI AR dumps all the hot gas and carbon back into the BCG which fowls things up quicker... an AR will shoot though most dirt and grim in the hands of a professional soldier.... i know that part of my training was to shot gun the AR and give it a good shake to knock out any dust from the trigger group, which is where most of the malfunction problems come from...

with either weapon system it boild down to training... if you are well trained with your weapon you will be able to clear any jam or fix any malfunction short of a ruptured case...

as for accuracy... i put a lot of stock in my rifle being "laser accurate"... the fact that i am able to hit a target at 500 yards with consistency is huge in my book... the longer away i know i can hit someone the more stand off i will have... means for the most part i am safer... i know without a hint of doubt that i cant hit paper with an AK at 300 yards, but i can with an AR... i am the type that will take accuracy over most other aspects of a weapons performance... if its light, accurate, easy to clean, and shoots a common NATO spec round...

[canscom]

And thats why I would stick with the Lee-Enfield OEFVeteran

[OEFVeteran]

if thats what works for you in canada then go for it... 5.56/.223 around my area is almost more common the .22LR.... even WalMart sells it in bulk...

[ibunkeru666]

Honestly, Its all down to what ever you have in your gun safe at that moment. As much as we'd like to say we'd be prepared, if anything zombie-esque were to happen it would probably be out of the blue. So, if you say the AK is better and you only have an AR, looks like thats your new best friend whether you like it or not. However, if i could choose. I'd take an SBR'd AK. Something chambered in 7.62x39 (around me its easier to find than bottled water) and extremely small so i could get it into and out of a vehicle easily and move through heavily wooded areas quickly without any hang ups.

But i hate to revert back to the last topic, but I also just bought a bolt action .22, and need some optics advice. I'm willing to spend like 200 bucks, I need at least 9x, and because of the goofy rail that came on the gun, the longer the optic the better.

[Watcher]

OEFVeteran, on 01 December 2012 - 11:09 AM, said:

if thats what works for you in canada then go for it... 5.56/.223 around my area is almost more common the .22LR.... even WalMart sells it in bulk...

Sweet! I wish my Walmart sold more things in larger quantities. I'm lucky they even sell ammo

[OEFVeteran]

i used to buy 250 rounds of .45acp there for 80 bucks... and they sell 100 round packs of 5.56....

[WeAre138]

Saw a deal on a Chinese Type 56 SKS. Going back and forth on grabbing it. Any thoughts? Im familiar with the SKS, but not with the quality of the Chinese models.

[OEFVeteran]

quality on the SKS in general isnt that great... ask your local shop see what they say...

i took off the muzzle break on my SCAR this after noon, and ordered a YHM thread protector... next on my list is a YHM Phantom QD suppressor adapter then saving up for a YHM Phantom Ti QD suppressor... once i get everything together (including the rail extension and bipod) i am gonna send her out to 7.62 precision for a duracoat finish...

[canscom]

Does FNH make a civvy SCAR-H

[OEFVeteran]

yes, its called the SCAR 17s

for all FN small arms (with acception to military specific rifles like the HAMR and FNAC/IAR) they make a civilian legal version... hell, the first gen FS2k came with a full auto trigger group but no FA selector

This post has been edited by OEFVeteran: 02 December 2012 - 10:22 PM

[SoCalPB22]

Does anyone else but me think that the Berreta ARX160 look like the Dye DAM. And also damn I love the look of the Sig Sauer ACP Platform

[G4paintballer]

I think I might get another deer gun next year. Either way I'll keep my 870 for deer hunting. Now here's my problem, either I get a semi automatic and use that as a driving type gun and mount a scope on my 870 and use that as a long range, stand hunting gun. Or I can get a purpose built break action slug gun for stand hunting and use my 870 as a driving gun. But get a recoil pad for it.

As of right now I'm leaning towards the second option since it would be cheaper and I already have my 870 as a pretty maneuverable gun with the 18 inch barrel. But semi autos generally have less recoil and follow up shots would be fairly easy to do. And I wouldn't have to by sabot slugs which are friggin expensive.

Opinions?

[OEFVeteran]

i like the idea behind the ARX-160... but it is the single ugliest gun i've ever seen... and it seems Beretta is pulling an HK here and not offering the ARX-160 to public, because you suck, and we hate you... i have zero respect for Beretta as a firearms company...

[Watcher]

Might be coming into some money soon and I'm going to need a good present for myself to improve my mood. It's a long story, but I'm basically being kicked out; have been paying into a personal savings account as "rent" for the past few years so I have more than a few bucks saved up.


Looking to get a "standard" AR of some kind. I don't want to say that money is no object, but I understand that you tend to get what you pay for so I'm willing to pay more for a good quality piece from a stand-up company.

Right now I like piston better than DI, but either one will work. I'm not completely biased.

The top choice I have right now is the Ruger SR556.
It's a piston gun, it's made in the USA by a company that is awesome, it comes with a lot of stuff so it is ready to roll right out of the box, has a quad rail so I can add a weapon-light, an AFG, and anything else I want in the future, I think it looks awesome, and at around $1500 it's a price I'd be comfortable paying to get all of the things it brings to the table.


Anyone know any good reasons why I shouldn't be looking at the Ruger? Anyone have any recommendations that are around the same price or less that have similar value for the dollar?


I don't want a piston vs DI argument here, I understand the pros/cons and in my situation as a civie I don't think the reliability of one over another or the availability of parts is going to be an issue. I don't necessarily believe that there is any indication of a performance difference, either, but I do know that a piston gun keeps the crap out of the bolt-carrier and I know that lends itself to ease of maintenance.
When a typical range visit involves around 10 firearms, the easier to clean the better.

[SoCalPB22]

The what do you think about their 92FS OEF

But I kinda agree with you the ARX looks like a combination of the H&K G36 and the XM8

This post has been edited by SoCalPB22: 08 December 2012 - 10:22 PM