[OEFVeteran]

i had a beretta m9 in afghanistan... i used it as a paperweight on my desk on teh rare occasion i had to do paperwork... there isnt a single beretta product out there that i will willingly shoot or own ever again....


as for AR's... the Sig 516 is an amazing little AR... and for the 1500 dollar price tag its hard to beat... its a piston gun, they are made in Portsmouth/Exeter, NH, and they come with a 3 position adjustable gas block... standard, suppressed, and off... yes, you can turn off the gas piston to use it as a single shit/manual action rifle for use with specialty loads...

one of the NCO's i served with in my old unit, his wife worked for ruger, he had an SR556... he said it was easy to clean, but very picky on ammo... not a quality i would want out of rifle... i know that it differs from rifle to rifle, but i've heard froma couple different people that their sr556 only liked being fed certain ammo

[Watcher]

OEFVeteran, on 09 December 2012 - 01:01 AM, said:

... the Sig 516 is an amazing little AR... and for the 1500 dollar price tag its hard to beat... its a piston gun, they are made in Portsmouth/Exeter, NH, and they come with a 3 position adjustable gas block... standard, suppressed, and off... yes, you can turn off the gas piston to use it as a single shot/manual action rifle for use with specialty loads...

one of the NCO's i served with in my old unit, his wife worked for ruger, he had an SR556... he said it was easy to clean, but very picky on ammo... not a quality i would want out of rifle... i know that it differs from rifle to rifle, but i've heard froma couple different people that their sr556 only liked being fed certain ammo

Well, so far every firearm I own, including my 3 Rugers, has eaten anything I have fed it without incident. Is it possible the SR556s of early production were experiencing teething issues?
I have not heard that from anyone recently, and reviews I find online do nothing but praise the rifle. I would like so much for it to be 100% for me, I can only afford so much ammo and it's going to be cheap...


As for the Sig, that looks great! Looks like the same system the Ruger has, and a very similar look/design/price.
US made is a plus, what is Sig's warranty like?

[OEFVeteran]

when i worked at Sig it was a lifetime warranty for the original owner of the fire arm for factory defects, this did not cover worn out barrels or parts that are neglected and warn due to extreme use... if there is an issue with the firearm, you contact SigArms in NH, they send you an RMA and usually a box, you ship them the rifle/hand gun, one of the pro shop techs evaluate it, and they give you a quote as to how much it will be and how long it will take to repair... if its major repair work, and its under warranty they usually replace the rifle, minus the cost of shipping...

a friend of mine has a sig 516, i shot it and compared it to my SCAR... the 516 was lighter, and was outfitted with high end magpul accessories... though it wasnt as smooth as the SCAR... its a great little rifle, and i really want to get one to keep in my car... built up with an AimPoint CompM4 optic, AFG and a MagPul UBR stock, would make for the perfect in-a-pinch gun for a shoot and scoot situation... though, i have also been tossing around the idea of trading off my SCAR (minus the optic) for either a Sig516 or a or an FN FS2k...

if there was one AR rifle out there that i could own it would be a Sig516... its got some nice features you dont see on more expensive rifles... like a litle detent on the lower receiver that eliminates most wobble between the upper and lower...

so far, the only downfall of my SCAR has been the fact that i have had to re-train myself in CBQ/CQC because of the way the rifle handles/feel and its layout... as well as re-learn/re-train myself in immediate and remedial action to clear a jam/misfire

[Watcher]

From just snooping around it seems like the Sig customer service leaves a lot to be desired.

The rifle seems pretty consistent, but lemons do emerge, and when they do I see a lot of reports of multiple trips back or a company that talks to you like it is your fault...


Also, seems like Ruger has taken a few measures to correct some issues in their SR556 over the years, and their CS never skips a beat. Read a thread from 2 years ago about someones SR556 that had really bad carrier tilt, and in about 2 weeks he had his rifle back with a new upper, BCG, and buffer-tube/buffer.

By the same token, I read a thread about the Sig where it had a jamming/feeding issue. Was sent back in twice, repaired in the same manner twice, and was never corrected.
Sounds a lot like my experience with Marlington...

At the same time, however, I've read cases where someones Sig is having an issue and CS was quick and correct. Might be a luck-of-the-draw kind of thing or a case of "bad news travels fast".


In both cases, it seems like people who own solid rifles love them. Just seems like Sig has a lot more CS complaints while the Ruger ultimately addressed the problem every time.

Also seems like the Ruger will cycle cheap stuff after break in.


I'll have to get some in my hands and see what they feel like.





Wait, did you say you worked for Sig?

This post has been edited by Watcher: 09 December 2012 - 05:00 AM

[OEFVeteran]

yeah, i used to do security at the Sig plant in Exeter, NH...

i know a few people that still work there... yet, i still cant get a discount to save my life...

out of the numerous people i know that have Sig products, the only complaint i've heard of with the 516 is the trigger pics coming loose... most people just put the rock river arms retention pins in, but a friend of mine sent his pack... 1 week turn around (granted it was in state shipping) and he never had a problem again...

an old NCO of mine's wife worked at ruger, she did something with the SR556, quality control i believe... she wouldtell us horror stories about products coming off the line, barrels that were off center, over sized or under sized chambers... all in all ruger is a good company, but after hearing all the horror QC stories form her i try and avoid them... and yeah, every company has horror stories about some part of the plant/process, its just that i've heard too many about ruger from more then oe person that works there... but, at least it means QC is doing their job and pulling the defects off the line


if you have the money to spend on a rifle, you really should look into a SCAR 16S, as long as its legal in your state... yes, its pricey, yes its heavier then an AR-15... but i've got less money invested in my SCAR then some of my friends do with their AR-15's... the SCAR only needs a few changes, and they are puerly personal preference... charging handle, pistol grip, optic/fore end accessories... i actually debated on weather or not forgo the optic and just rock the irons... the irons are that good

[Watcher]

OEFVeteran, on 09 December 2012 - 11:16 AM, said:

if you have the money to spend on a rifle, you really should look into a SCAR 16S, as long as its legal in your state... yes, its pricey, yes its heavier then an AR-15... but i've got less money invested in my SCAR then some of my friends do with their AR-15's... the SCAR only needs a few changes, and they are puerly personal preference... charging handle, pistol grip, optic/fore end accessories... i actually debated on weather or not forgo the optic and just rock the irons... the irons are that good

I never really considered the SCAR. I think it looks huge, I'd rather have something with a more common battery of arms, and it's quite a bit more than I want to spend initially.
I am not planning a lot of modification, either, so with optics and either a SR556 or Sig516 with a few ergonomic changes I will be quite a bit under the price tag of a 16S.



About the "horror stories", I'm sure every company has some issues with production. It's the QC and the product support that matters the most, in my opinion. Besides, the demand for Ruger is huge right now. It only makes sense that if they are working as fast as they can to meet sales that there would be some rushed firearms. As long as the product that makes it to you is solid, or if there is an issue the company corrects it ASAP, then I'll be a customer.



Lets see, the Sig from ImpactSports is $1469 while the Ruger is $1499. Only a $30 difference.
The Ruger comes with 2 extra P-mags compared to the Sig, so that is the cost difference right there.

But with the Ruger you get a longer rail, a heavier barrel, and better BUIS. I would probably get a better stock for the Ruger eventually, and I would get better BUIS for the Sig. That still makes them around the same cost.

But with the Sig you can clean out the transfer-rod channel, on the Ruger you can't... But you arguably don't have to with the Ruger.



This is turning out to be a really close race. I really should just go out and find them to handle them and see which feels better...

[OEFVeteran]

the Magpul BUIS are excellent on the Sig, not sure what comes on the Ruger though...

the SCAR 16s can be found for 2250 if you shop round... only realt changes to teh SCAR i feel is the pistol grip, 30 bucks, and the charging handle, 40-60 depending on what you get...

yes, the SCAR 16s is heavier, but, it runs cleaner, cooler, and requires less TLC to keep running.... its not a gas piston like you would see in a piston AR... its a short stroke gas tappet... i've seen photo and video evidence of SCARs running 20k plus rounds without malfunction and no need to clean the tappet... only issue that arose was when teh shooter wne to remove the tappet to clean it...the SCAR also has a quick change barrel... 5 minutes and you can swap barrels if you need to... but the real benefit to that is the cleaning... remove the barrel and you can do a full detail on the chamber and star nut... the BCG is beefier, stronger, and has less surface are contact with the receiver then an AR-15... it runs smoother, less recoil, and less maintenance... plus, its got a folding stock that fully adjustable for length of pull and cheek rise... its got an ambi safety/selector lever and mag release...

honestly, the only reason i woudl consider going back to an AR style rifle is simply because that what i trained with and thats what i am use to, but every time i shoot the SCAR i forget all about the M4/AR-15...

if you dont want to spend that much, i fully understand, just giving you a perspective on why i chose the SCAR of every other semi auto 5.56 on the market... i had set my budget at 3500 for rifle and optic... and i am just about there with the SCAR...

light fighting weight (with accessories)
maneuverability
portability
fully adjustable
truly ambidextrous
spare parts may be in shot order right now, but ther eis no need for them, the whole rifle is so over built it will take more abuse then your common shooter can ever dish out to break...
lowest and smoothest recoil impulse out of any rifle cartridge chambered semi auto on the market..., the only rifle that has a lower felt recoil is the Super V, and thats in .45acp...

as long as you follow the user manual on teh SCAR (i.e. dont put any non approved or non FN branded parts on it that changes the function of the rifle) they have the best CS in teh industry... this means if you SBR it, and it breaks, FN wont cover the cost unless its a factory cut FNH barrel... having a thrid party, FNH certified gun smith or not, cut your barrel will void warranty... but a new pistol grip, charging handle or flash hider wont....

the choice is yours... i know that if i had the chance to do it again, and didnt have an oppertunity to get a SCAR i would have gotten the Sig556... the Ruger SR556 is nice as well, i am jsut more a fan of Sig after seeing their QC and product testing in person

[Watcher]

OEFVeteran, on 10 December 2012 - 01:45 AM, said:

the Magpul BUIS are excellent on the Sig, not sure what comes on the Ruger though...


honestly, the only reason i woudl consider going back to an AR style rifle is simply because that what i trained with and thats what i am use to, but every time i shoot the SCAR i forget all about the M4/AR-15...

if you dont want to spend that much, i fully understand, just giving you a perspective on why i chose the SCAR of every other semi auto 5.56 on the market... i had set my budget at 3500 for rifle and optic... and i am just about there with the SCAR...

From what I can tell, the Sig comes with an in-house designed BUIS set that is fairly basic. The Ruger comes with Troy BUIS which are much better. Well, maybe not much better but they at lease lock in the up position with a push button. The Sig sights just have a spring detent.
I would get the MBUIS sights for the Sig if I ended up with it.



For an AR, I would highly consider something with a more standard battery of arms simply from a commonality standpoint. Just how all three of my handguns (.45 1911, 9mm SR9, .22 Buckmark) all have a rear mounted thumb safety with up as "safe" which locks the slide and down as "fire", a slide stop forward of the safety that I actuate with my support hand, and a mag release slightly lower than and behind the trigger which is a push button, I'd want an AR with a flush and rear mounted charging handle, a 90 degree swing selector switch, and a push button mag release with a left-side bolt-release.

Not to say that a different design like the SCAR or Robinson's XCR is a bad choice or more ergonomic/better designed, but when 95% of ARs are done one way I'd like to get something where the one I train with works the same as everyone else's...
Especially on a piston rifle, in a SHTF situation if mine goes down and I have to desert it for a common DI gun like a RRA, I'll know how to use it since I've been essentially training with it the whole time.


But to be perfectly honest, I just never really liked the SCAR.
I'll agree with everything you've described about it, and I know FNH is a great company, but the SCAR is not high on my list of "rifles I'd like to own one day".

[OEFVeteran]

the SCAR isnt a rifle for everyone... and its taken quite a bit of time at the range for me to re-train to use the SCAR the way i i used an M4... but, at the end of the day, i find its all in how you set up the rifle... i like my charging handle on the right side with the standard length rail, that way when i use a CQB gun fighters grip with my left hand on the mag well i dont rip off my own thumb with the charging handle... the selector lever, i like the SCAR's 45* throw rather then the 90* of the AR or ACR, its much quicker to engage and disengage... i also like how the rifle has a mag release on both sides, make shooting off hand and reloading much easier, same witht he selector switch... so far the only things i would change on my SCAR if i could afford to do so are... Ti lower receiver and but stock that maintained all factory specs, jsut made out of titanium for strength and weight savings... extended rail section to maximise my usable rail space, and a removal of the rail section i dont need/use... i like to have rails where i want/need them, which is why i am looking into a VLTOR SCAR hand grip w/extension... and lastly, a heavy profile Christensen Arms CF barrel, with a hard chrome lined bore to reduce weight and maintain accuracy...

the real selling point to me for the SCAR is that its a match grade milspec carbine... i've personally shot 2 inch groups at 300 yards with it... less then 1MOA accuracy in a milspec carbine... but again, its not a rifle fr everyone, and not jsut becuase of the price tag... they do take quite a bit to get used to... hell, everyone i've let shoot or taught to shoot my SCAR says they enjoy shooting it, but wouldnt buy one simply because they its a lot to learn about...


and every Sig516 ive seen in a shop or that my friends have bought came with damn nice sights... i know they offered a MagPul MOE version of the 516... with the MBUIS, Moe handguard, MOE compartment grip and MOE stock... but the factory irons are milspec and lock into place.... if i were to get aftermarket back up irons for my SCAR i would get YMH BUIS... http://yhm.net/index...3&products_id=4

[Watcher]

OEFVeteran, on 10 December 2012 - 04:00 AM, said:

and every Sig516 ive seen in a shop or that my friends have bought came with damn nice sights... i know they offered a MagPul MOE version of the 516... with the MBUIS, Moe handguard, MOE compartment grip and MOE stock... but the factory irons are milspec and lock into place....

Hmm. Perhaps there is more to this rifle than Sig displays on their website...

The rifle I mainly see has a MOE stock and MIAD grip, basic sights, and the stock (troy?) quad-rail up front...

[OEFVeteran]

on the site the advertise the sights as Sig Advanced Flip Ups... i remember them being very very nice sights on my buddies rifle... but, i have also seen them in the store on the shelf, brand new form the factory, with both MBUIS and Troy sights.... the handguard is also a sig hand guard, and it comes with the ladder style rail covers, which i think is a nice touch

[Watcher]

Here could be a deciding factor.

I like the "c-clamp" full arm extension hold on my rifles. Granted, I don't have any semi-autos I can do it to, but the last time I shot I held my M91/30 and M44 in that way, I found the recoil to be more manageable, I found the weapon more "pointable", and I found it very comfortable and stable.
I even tried it in a sporting environment. I was shooting a little inconsistent at the clay range with my 16G SEARS bolt-shotgun, so I stepped back, stretched out, picked it back up, and tried the extended hold on it. Shot a 10/10, so it works for me.


If the forearm on the Sig is too short for this type of hold, I think my decision is made. If it is long enough, then it's back to the drawing board!

[OEFVeteran]

you could always get a rail extension... but the for arm on the Sig is a full length carbine rail... you dont want to stretch your arm out too far down the barrel, as this fatigues your arm faster... find a happy medium... for close range, i use a gun fighters grip... left hand on teh mag well... for lon range, i use and extended target grip... i've dont both with the Sig and never had an issue... very comfortable rifle to shoot... and its an AR... its got little to no recoil what so ever, so its very easy to manage

[Watcher]

Here is another one to consider. In my price range, and likely around the same cost as the Sig after I get BUIS and maybe a new grip and stock.

The Smith & Wesson M&P-15 PSX.


Good design, good company, good reviews, seems like another solid competitor. Has the same size/style rail as the Sig, has a simpler piston system, but it has a slower twist rate in the barrel, yet it seems like it has a slightly heavier profile barrel.

[OEFVeteran]

the only twist rate you want in an AR-15 is 1/7.... anything more is useless for heavier loads

This post has been edited by OEFVeteran: 12 December 2012 - 12:44 AM

[WeAre138]

This thread makes me feel poor LOL. Ive been looking at the M&P Sport myself. Seems like a decent budget buy. My Ar knowledge is very limited though. Are the forward assist, and dust cover really needed for non-operators?

I keep going back and forth between a nice revolver and an AR come tax season.

[OEFVeteran]

for forward assist and dust cover are both very much needed...

the dust cover does a good job of sealing up the receiver, as long as you remember to close it when you are not shooting...

the forward assist is there to help you seat the round if the bolt doesnt go all the way forward... help prevent misfires...

if you have any ar questions, feel free to ask

[WeAre138]

Well now that thats out of the way. Moving on to other options. Now that I really stop, and think. It would seem silly to skimp on an AR. Buy once, cry once ya know.

Im going to have to take a look at the Windham Weaponry offerings. I really respect what that company did after Bushmaster left all their workers hanging.

Any mid range AR's youd recommend, or any hints on what to look for in the hunt.

[maximumslinky]

i got a question for you fellas. i have a remington 1911 and it seems to be shooting low. i dont think there is a way to adjust the sights up or down so is there an adjustable sight that you can recommend?

[Watcher]

OEFVeteran, on 12 December 2012 - 12:40 AM, said:

the only twist rate you want in an AR-15 is 1/7.... anything more is useless for heavier loads

Well then, since both the Smith and Ruger have 1/9 twist that kind of narrows the choices down...

Is it really necessary in a fun gun? I'm not planning on shooting match ammo or going for distance here.


And another thing I just noticed, since the Sig is ambi mag release I wonder if it would interfere with a BAD-lever...