[Tor]

fsugonoles63, on 29 June 2010 - 01:01 AM, said:

sticktodrum, on 29 June 2010 - 12:58 AM, said:

thegreg, on 29 June 2010 - 12:55 AM, said:

in all likely hood end up reflecting poorly on us as a community.

Hrmmm, that's pretty doubtful actually.

So far religion is the only one getting reflected poorly upon

That's the case with alot of situations....

[fsugonoles63]

Tor, on 29 June 2010 - 01:02 AM, said:

fsugonoles63, on 29 June 2010 - 01:01 AM, said:

sticktodrum, on 29 June 2010 - 12:58 AM, said:

thegreg, on 29 June 2010 - 12:55 AM, said:

in all likely hood end up reflecting poorly on us as a community.

Hrmmm, that's pretty doubtful actually.

So far religion is the only one getting reflected poorly upon

That's the case with alot of situations....

Well, not saying religion is bad or anything but, it causes lots of stupid situations

[ConradNorCal]

thegreg, on 29 June 2010 - 12:55 AM, said:

Clearly Chechneya is completely ass-backwards

well its easy to say that living in the states and believe me I used to think the exact same thing, but once you actually travel to 3rd world countries (I've been to several) you realize its not the peoples fault per say. Education is usually not offered, or is optional and extremely expensive. They have little contact and or knowledge with the outside world. Their world is all they've ever known.

*Theirs a really great book that deals with this exact issue, can't recall the name, deals with deep space travel and cannibalism, errrr whats it called , If I remember I'll post it*

Even in our globalized world many places still remain isolated and have little to no contact with the outside world. I saw a documentary not long ago that talked about small undiscovered tribes in the Amazon, what you might consider to be commonly known could potentially be unheard of to them.

This post has been edited by ConradNorCal: 29 June 2010 - 01:15 AM

[X Ray]

sticktodrum, on 29 June 2010 - 12:21 AM, said:

TechPB-Mike, on 28 June 2010 - 06:52 PM, said:

People who act this way have no clue that their actions are an insult to their own religion. I see acts like this, not as acts of religion, but of violence hidden behind religion.

This isn't 100% true. Most people like to think it is, but the truth is that these people aren't entirely evil. Steven Weinberg (a prominent physicist) said very accurately that bad people can do evil, but for good people to do evil, that takes religion.

I really don't think that every man in these countries that embrace these beliefs are all evil pricks that would do these things no matter what. It's a bit foolish to think that. Actually, it's really foolish to think that. Millions and millions of men, all in these countries, are evil? Hardly.

Most of them are regular people, following customs that they were brought up with. It's enough with this blaming of the people for everything. They do these things precisely because they belief they have divine permission. That is why.

It's easy to point the finger at people, because everyone feels comfortable doing that. Unfortunately, no one seems to want to do the more difficult task in saying that these people are not entirely at fault.

Hmm, so what you are saying is that they do evil deeds because of their beliefs and being brought up not knowing any better.
I think you are partly right, people as a hole will often act out as a heard and simply go along with the "many" in stead of the "individual". However, IMO people have a born sense of right or wrong and if they just follow a little of this sense they would not be as barbaric.
Yes you can argue that they do this things because of their beliefs but every human being is capable of making moral judgments of their own, and to me they do not deserve being absolved from moral and ethical responsibility because of the way they were raised or their beliefs.

[ConradNorCal]

X Ray, on 29 June 2010 - 01:16 AM, said:

sticktodrum, on 29 June 2010 - 12:21 AM, said:

TechPB-Mike, on 28 June 2010 - 06:52 PM, said:

People who act this way have no clue that their actions are an insult to their own religion. I see acts like this, not as acts of religion, but of violence hidden behind religion.

This isn't 100% true. Most people like to think it is, but the truth is that these people aren't entirely evil. Steven Weinberg (a prominent physicist) said very accurately that bad people can do evil, but for good people to do evil, that takes religion.

I really don't think that every man in these countries that embrace these beliefs are all evil pricks that would do these things no matter what. It's a bit foolish to think that. Actually, it's really foolish to think that. Millions and millions of men, all in these countries, are evil? Hardly.

Most of them are regular people, following customs that they were brought up with. It's enough with this blaming of the people for everything. They do these things precisely because they belief they have divine permission. That is why.

It's easy to point the finger at people, because everyone feels comfortable doing that. Unfortunately, no one seems to want to do the more difficult task in saying that these people are not entirely at fault.

Hmm, so what you are saying is that they do evil deeds because of their beliefs and being brought up not knowing any better.
I think you are partly right, people as a hole will often act out as a heard and simply go along with the "many" in stead of the "individual". However, IMO people have a born sense of right or wrong and if they just follow a little of this sense they would not be as barbaric.
Yes you can argue that they do this things because of their beliefs but every human being is capable of making moral judgments of their own, and to me they do not deserve being absolved from moral and ethical responsibility because of the way they were raised or their beliefs.

but your logic requires the belief that all humans share the same mental capacity/ability, something I don't necessarily agree with.

[sticktodrum]

X Ray, on 29 June 2010 - 01:16 AM, said:

Hmm, so what you are saying is that they do evil deeds because of their beliefs and being brought up not knowing any better.
I think you are partly right, people as a hole will often act out as a heard and simply go along with the "many" in stead of the "individual". However, IMO people have a born sense of right or wrong and if they just follow a little of this sense they would not be as barbaric.
Yes you can argue that they do this things because of their beliefs but every human being is capable of making moral judgments of their own, and to me they do not deserve being absolved from moral and ethical responsibility because of the way they were raised or their beliefs.

Not exactly what I'm saying. I'm saying that the fact that something is a belief, anything is permissible and possible. It's not about herd mentality, it's about justification. I'm sure that most of the people in that country are decent people, and what they feel they are doing is moral and just. To us, it's not.

People don't understand that morality shifts with time and culture. That is why we see those things are disturbing and disgusting. To them, and others whose customs allow and encourage, they are part of life. It is because of those customs that these inflictions of pain and violence are allowed.

As a species, we have a grand, innate sense of empathy. It comes from our growth as a social species. Like other primates, it's beneficial to have compassion for other members of a group, or our species. That's where our most fundamental recognition that there is a "right" and "wrong" come from. The divine justifications of terrible evils are betrayals to that primitive impulse of empathy.

[Tor]

It's quite simple about what sticktodrum is trying to say.

Its a matter of what they learn growing and how much outside knowledge they accumulate.

This post has been edited by Tor: 29 June 2010 - 01:31 AM

[X Ray]

ConradNorCal, on 29 June 2010 - 01:22 AM, said:

X Ray, on 29 June 2010 - 01:16 AM, said:

sticktodrum, on 29 June 2010 - 12:21 AM, said:

TechPB-Mike, on 28 June 2010 - 06:52 PM, said:

People who act this way have no clue that their actions are an insult to their own religion. I see acts like this, not as acts of religion, but of violence hidden behind religion.

This isn't 100% true. Most people like to think it is, but the truth is that these people aren't entirely evil. Steven Weinberg (a prominent physicist) said very accurately that bad people can do evil, but for good people to do evil, that takes religion.

I really don't think that every man in these countries that embrace these beliefs are all evil pricks that would do these things no matter what. It's a bit foolish to think that. Actually, it's really foolish to think that. Millions and millions of men, all in these countries, are evil? Hardly.

Most of them are regular people, following customs that they were brought up with. It's enough with this blaming of the people for everything. They do these things precisely because they belief they have divine permission. That is why.

It's easy to point the finger at people, because everyone feels comfortable doing that. Unfortunately, no one seems to want to do the more difficult task in saying that these people are not entirely at fault.

Hmm, so what you are saying is that they do evil deeds because of their beliefs and being brought up not knowing any better.
I think you are partly right, people as a hole will often act out as a heard and simply go along with the "many" in stead of the "individual". However, IMO people have a born sense of right or wrong and if they just follow a little of this sense they would not be as barbaric.
Yes you can argue that they do this things because of their beliefs but every human being is capable of making moral judgments of their own, and to me they do not deserve being absolved from moral and ethical responsibility because of the way they were raised or their beliefs.

but your logic requires the belief that all humans share the same mental capacity/ability, something I don't necessarily agree with.

Really? So you think that groups of humans (not individuals) are superior from others because they differ in mental capacities and abilities?

[ConradNorCal]

Tor, on 29 June 2010 - 01:31 AM, said:

It's quite simple about what sticktodrum is trying to say.

Its a matter of what they learn growing and how much outside knowledge they accumulate.

I don't think thats what he's saying at all.....he is saying that empathy (right/wrong) is a basic primate emotion in every human

X Ray, on 29 June 2010 - 01:34 AM, said:

ConradNorCal, on 29 June 2010 - 01:22 AM, said:

X Ray, on 29 June 2010 - 01:16 AM, said:

sticktodrum, on 29 June 2010 - 12:21 AM, said:

TechPB-Mike, on 28 June 2010 - 06:52 PM, said:

People who act this way have no clue that their actions are an insult to their own religion. I see acts like this, not as acts of religion, but of violence hidden behind religion.

This isn't 100% true. Most people like to think it is, but the truth is that these people aren't entirely evil. Steven Weinberg (a prominent physicist) said very accurately that bad people can do evil, but for good people to do evil, that takes religion.

I really don't think that every man in these countries that embrace these beliefs are all evil pricks that would do these things no matter what. It's a bit foolish to think that. Actually, it's really foolish to think that. Millions and millions of men, all in these countries, are evil? Hardly.

Most of them are regular people, following customs that they were brought up with. It's enough with this blaming of the people for everything. They do these things precisely because they belief they have divine permission. That is why.

It's easy to point the finger at people, because everyone feels comfortable doing that. Unfortunately, no one seems to want to do the more difficult task in saying that these people are not entirely at fault.

Hmm, so what you are saying is that they do evil deeds because of their beliefs and being brought up not knowing any better.
I think you are partly right, people as a hole will often act out as a heard and simply go along with the "many" in stead of the "individual". However, IMO people have a born sense of right or wrong and if they just follow a little of this sense they would not be as barbaric.
Yes you can argue that they do this things because of their beliefs but every human being is capable of making moral judgments of their own, and to me they do not deserve being absolved from moral and ethical responsibility because of the way they were raised or their beliefs.

but your logic requires the belief that all humans share the same mental capacity/ability, something I don't necessarily agree with.

Really? So you think that groups of humans (not individuals) are superior from others because they differ in mental capacities and abilities?

not groups, just individuals I also never said superior.....(don't try and make me out to be some jackass neo-Nazi, b/c that was totally not my point).....

[sticktodrum]

ConradNorCal, on 29 June 2010 - 01:22 AM, said:

but your logic requires the belief that all humans share the same mental capacity/ability, something I don't necessarily agree with.

Well, unfortunately it's not exactly something that's left up to agreement or disagreement. The jury isn't out on the capacity of the species in terms of physiology or cognizance. You can split hairs with certain people who are obviously of lower capacity (mentally), or are psycho or sociopathic, but those are exceptions, not rules.

Considering our 5+ billion population number stems from an original population of only a few thousand (as our species emerged from/left the Sahara), everyone you see around you is just a different permutation of the potential of that original gene pool. Granted, there is a lot of variation, and some mutation, but essentially we're all the same. Biologically, there is no such thing as race, and superficial variances are mostly due to short-term effects of social group related bolstering of inherited traits. SO yes, for the most part (and that's a really big most), we have the same capacities. Especially, in terms of our ability to formulate a basic sense of empathy and compassion for members of our species. Unfortunately, it's betrayed easily not only by cultural and customary mentalities, but also by conflicting survival instincts that are left over.

[X Ray]

ConradNorCal, on 29 June 2010 - 01:36 AM, said:

Tor, on 29 June 2010 - 01:31 AM, said:

It's quite simple about what sticktodrum is trying to say.

Its a matter of what they learn growing and how much outside knowledge they accumulate.

I don't think thats what he's saying at all.....he is saying that empathy (right/wrong) is a basic primate emotion in every human

X Ray, on 29 June 2010 - 01:34 AM, said:

ConradNorCal, on 29 June 2010 - 01:22 AM, said:

X Ray, on 29 June 2010 - 01:16 AM, said:

sticktodrum, on 29 June 2010 - 12:21 AM, said:

TechPB-Mike, on 28 June 2010 - 06:52 PM, said:

People who act this way have no clue that their actions are an insult to their own religion. I see acts like this, not as acts of religion, but of violence hidden behind religion.

This isn't 100% true. Most people like to think it is, but the truth is that these people aren't entirely evil. Steven Weinberg (a prominent physicist) said very accurately that bad people can do evil, but for good people to do evil, that takes religion.

I really don't think that every man in these countries that embrace these beliefs are all evil pricks that would do these things no matter what. It's a bit foolish to think that. Actually, it's really foolish to think that. Millions and millions of men, all in these countries, are evil? Hardly.

Most of them are regular people, following customs that they were brought up with. It's enough with this blaming of the people for everything. They do these things precisely because they belief they have divine permission. That is why.

It's easy to point the finger at people, because everyone feels comfortable doing that. Unfortunately, no one seems to want to do the more difficult task in saying that these people are not entirely at fault.

Hmm, so what you are saying is that they do evil deeds because of their beliefs and being brought up not knowing any better.
I think you are partly right, people as a hole will often act out as a heard and simply go along with the "many" in stead of the "individual". However, IMO people have a born sense of right or wrong and if they just follow a little of this sense they would not be as barbaric.
Yes you can argue that they do this things because of their beliefs but every human being is capable of making moral judgments of their own, and to me they do not deserve being absolved from moral and ethical responsibility because of the way they were raised or their beliefs.

but your logic requires the belief that all humans share the same mental capacity/ability, something I don't necessarily agree with.

Really? So you think that groups of humans (not individuals) are superior from others because they differ in mental capacities and abilities?

not groups, just individuals I also never said superior.....(don't try and make me out to be some jackass neo-Nazi, b/c that was totally not my point).....

I was not trying anything like that at all, but we are talking about groups of people here. Not idividuals.

[ConradNorCal]

sticktodrum, on 29 June 2010 - 01:43 AM, said:

ConradNorCal, on 29 June 2010 - 01:22 AM, said:

but your logic requires the belief that all humans share the same mental capacity/ability, something I don't necessarily agree with.

Well, unfortunately it's not exactly something that's left up to agreement or disagreement. The jury isn't out on the capacity of the species in terms of physiology or cognizance. You can split hairs with certain people who are obviously of lower capacity (mentally), or are psycho or sociopathic, but those are exceptions, not rules.

Considering our 5+ billion population number stems from an original population of only a few thousand (as our species emerged from/left the Sahara), everyone you see around you is just a different permutation of the potential of that original gene pool. Granted, there is a lot of variation, and some mutation, but essentially we're all the same. Biologically, there is no such thing as race, and superficial variances are mostly due to short-term effects of social group related bolstering of inherited traits. SO yes, for the most part (and that's a really big most), we have the same capacities. Especially, in terms of our ability to formulate a basic sense of empathy and compassion for members of our species. Unfortunately, it's betrayed easily not only by cultural and customary mentalities, but also by conflicting survival instincts that are left over.

On a biological sure humans may be nearly the same, but don't you agree that some humans simply strive to "out think" and "out wit" other humans, I consider those with high levels of desire to know the most to be "smarter" than other humans. I think everyone has met those type of people who have an insatiable hunger to learn. I sure have, and I consider them to be smarter/ more advanced than myself and the general population. I think of them as the beginnings of the next evolutionary step in man.

This post has been edited by ConradNorCal: 29 June 2010 - 01:59 AM

[X Ray]

sticktodrum, on 29 June 2010 - 01:27 AM, said:

As a species, we have a grand, innate sense of empathy. It comes from our growth as a social species. Like other primates, it's beneficial to have compassion for other members of a group, or our species. That's where our most fundamental recognition that there is a "right" and "wrong" come from. The divine justifications of terrible evils are betrayals to that primitive impulse of empathy.

Ok stick I can see you are very smart, I like that, but this is my point exactly. Yes religion can overrule our fundamental sense of empathy, but again I say empathy is there for a reason, for the benefit of the species.

However you are also right on your other points. And there are no easy answers. At least none that I can come up with.

This post has been edited by X Ray: 29 June 2010 - 02:06 AM

[sticktodrum]

ConradNorCal, on 29 June 2010 - 01:58 AM, said:

On a biological sure humans may be nearly the same, but don't you agree that some humans simply strive to "out think" and "out wit" other humans, I consider those with high levels of desire to know the most to be "smarter" than other humans. I think everyone has met those type of people who have an insatiable hunger to learn. I sure have, and I consider them to be smarter/ more advanced than myself and the general population. I think of them as the beginnings of the next evolutionary step in man.

It's another innate quality, wonder and curiosity. However just like everything else, it's betrayed by more conflicting impulses for survival. In a social atmosphere where variation is wide, and threats are minimal, individuals have more ability to explore without normal consequence. There are indeed people who are smarter, want to be smarter, have the desire to learn more, etc., and each situation has it's own set of causes. Intelligence, wittiness, etc. are all multi-factorial things, and it's too complex to point to one cause or influence. Social structure is just as much an influence on any one's ability as predisposition.

As far as evolutionary steps, there are a few seeming steps that pop up every now and then. However a lot of variation that could perhaps develop towards "evolutionary" developments are usually remixed and suppressed into the gene pool due to reproductive selection. There was a good example of some test done on people who had processing sections of the brain overlapping in function, allowing them to pair figures and colors as if they were single data points, and allowing odd, complex problem solving. I'd have to look that up again, it was really trippy stuff.

X Ray, on 29 June 2010 - 02:03 AM, said:

Ok stick I can see you are very smart, I like that, but this is my point exactly. Yes religion can overrule our fundamental sense of empathy, but again I say empathy is there for a reason, for the benefit of the species.

However you are also right on your other points. And there are no easy answers. At least none that I can come up with.

Odd thing about that, since it seems so unintuitive (and it doesn't even really sound like it's different at first listen) is that empathy is only there because it benefited the species. It's not exactly a reason, since the empathetic impulse is a bi-product of survival/adaptation as opposed to having a purpose in and of itself.

My point that I tried to make above is that I really don't think it's fair (or accurate) to say that people will find any other reason to do evil, and they hind behind religion. In some cases, that is indeed true. The psycho or sociopathic are indeed evil, and do evil things; their justifications notwithstanding. However that can't (and doesn't) apply to entire populations of hundreds of thousands if not millions of people in parts of the world. It's extremely unlikely that millions of Islamic men would somehow find or have any random justification for violence against women, female circumcision, repression, etc. if their divine allowances were not present. It's much more likely (and in my opinion, true) that their cultural beliefs are precisely the reason why they do such things.

[TechPB-Mike]

all good points, I tend to try to separate what is religion and "accepted customs"

It's almost a chicken and egg argument, but I always try to separate what is a custom, and what is specifically instructed in a religious text

I love Mario's saying about needing religion to make good people do evil things.

I dunno, I'm just sick of acts of violence being downplayed because of "religion" or "custom". This is an attack on innocent people, I just see the addition of religion and customs into this as a way for justification.

People are being attacked, people are being injured, it's wrong, regardless of what the perps are trying to hide it behind

[nycpbguy]

It's their belief...America came to be because of religious reason. Remember back then where husbands and wives can't even sleep in the same bed? All due to the Puritans beliefs and customs. I am agnostic as I really hate to argue if there is a God or not but I don't believe that there is a higher power being that told men to treat women with such disrespect and violence. Immanuel Kant said that if there wasn't a God people would actually make up someone that is a higher being of them. With that being said was there a psychopath or a group of psychopaths that started all this shit? Maybe...

[Vitamin J]

sticktodrum, on 29 June 2010 - 10:43 AM, said:

My point that I tried to make above is that I really don't think it's fair (or accurate) to say that people will find any other reason to do evil, and they hind behind religion. In some cases, that is indeed true. The psycho or sociopathic are indeed evil, and do evil things; their justifications notwithstanding. However that can't (and doesn't) apply to entire populations of hundreds of thousands if not millions of people in parts of the world. It's extremely unlikely that millions of Islamic men would somehow find or have any random justification for violence against women, female circumcision, repression, etc. if their divine allowances were not present. It's much more likely (and in my opinion, true) that their cultural beliefs are precisely the reason why they do such things.

You are completely correct. What is happening in Chechnya, Iran, Saudi Arabia, UAE, etc to Muslim women happened long ago in Europe to Christian women. The Bible says that women must be modest and cover their hair. Thankfully the people who founded the United States decided that making laws based on the Bible or any other religious text was wrong, though there are many people who wish to do just that. Next time someone tells you that the United States is a "Christian nation" slap them in the face.

You bring up female circumcision, but seem to glance over the fact that 60% of males in the United States are circumcised. Women didn't get to vote until 1920 and it is still a commonly held belief that "woman's place is in the kitchen." So don't think we are that much different from them, perhaps if that area of the world hadn't been raped and pillaged for their natural resources and their governments weren't corrupted or overthrown to gain an edge in the Cold War, they would have better education systems and less militaristic governments.

This post has been edited by Vitamin J: 30 June 2010 - 12:07 PM

[The Count]

nycpbguy, on 29 June 2010 - 12:17 PM, said:

America came to be because of religious reason.

This is not true. The US came to be because of money, simply. Many of the founding fathers were deists, several were even atheists.

Vitamin J said:

Next time someone tells you that the United States is a "Christian nation" slap them in the face.

Do it a second time for me.

[Dirk.Baumann]

TechPB-Mike, on 28 June 2010 - 06:52 PM, said:

read this on the link-

"The belief that women must be covered is an explicit admission that Islam does not equip men with the necessary tools of faith to allow them to resist the temptation posed by women, who look they way they do because Allah created them that way--and should be celebrated as one of His most beautiful creations."

People who act this way have no clue that their actions are an insult to their own religion. I see acts like this, not as acts of religion, but of violence hidden behind religion.

People are using their religion as a instrument of oppression. If Islam never existed, these people would be acting the EXACT same way, using some other form of worship or belief to oppress women.

I see violence against women in that article, and a society who's willing to put up with it.

Police or not, someone rolls up and starts shooting my wife or daughters in the face with a paintball gun, would get a hot one right through the chest.

Violence against the defenseless, that's all this is. Absolutely sickening

Anger management much? Kidding

[PBSL Carmen]

Ultimately these guys are just grownup bullies, and hide behing whatever they can and use it as justification so that they don't seem like a bad guy. Bad guys spawn angry mobs that chase them down and tear them to shreds. Good guys spawn supporters. If you can convince people that you are a good guy, you get to keep being a bully. If you can't, you're SOL. All these guys are saying is "I'm a good guy because XYZ told me so."

It just personally pisses me off that so many people use religion as the XYZ.