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Breaking in a Gun - Myth or Fact


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#1 TechPB-Mike

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Posted 22 December 2008 - 09:15 PM

I was curious if you guys were interested in testing a couple of BRAND NEW guns, and finding out if there is any truth to the whole "gun is broken in" theory

Maybe we take a poppet and spool, brand new in the box, and test them out of the box at the chrono, shoot them 10,000 times, and retest

See if the LPR drops, HPR drops to achieve 300fps

#2 PATRIOT

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Posted 22 December 2008 - 09:16 PM

mike, quit sniffing eaither...lol ;)
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#3 CRU_Paintball

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Posted 22 December 2008 - 09:17 PM

I have noticed that the markers tend to shoot a little better brand new out of the box as well.

#4 wgp2002

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Posted 22 December 2008 - 09:22 PM

it may depend on the gun as well beyond the difference of valves.. maybe throw some old guns in like mags or cockers compared to lux's .. maybe bob longs would be a good test subject old vs new
The lesson here is love your gun dont give a shit about what people say about it.. if it fits you keep it if not move on. I get enough crap from kids who think autocockers are shit when most have never shot one. Every angel I ever shot was smooth but they were out of my range so i went with an autococker instead. Now I have a couple and they are my babies. Love the sport Love your gun whatever it may be and Love yourself .. maybe not in that order. CockerOwnerClub

#5 Poe

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Posted 22 December 2008 - 10:06 PM

I was curious if you guys were interested in testing a couple of BRAND NEW guns, and finding out if there is any truth to the whole "gun is broken in" theory

Maybe we take a poppet and spool, brand new in the box, and test them out of the box at the chrono, shoot them 10,000 times, and retest

See if the LPR drops, HPR drops to achieve 300fps


I would like to see that myth tested. "Breaking in" any decent marker never made much sense to me.

One suggestion though; tear apart the gun and ensure it is correctly cleaned and lubed prior to the first and last test. A marker's "out of the box" quality varies wildly from manufacturer to manufacturer in my experience. Some markers still have machine oil (not lube) on internal components. Some only place a dot of lube on the air filter, relying on the first x cycles to carry it to the seals. A complete clean/re-lubing will ensure any change is not the result of normal use and is in-fact the gun "breaking in".

...although... If the gun shoots better because it wasn't properly lubricated in the first place, is that the same as breaking in the gun?

Edited by Poe, 22 December 2008 - 10:17 PM.


#6 PATRIOT

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Posted 22 December 2008 - 10:06 PM

i cant tell aboput the efficentcy of my PM7 new compaired to broken in, but i can say that after putting 75+ cases through it, it dose shoot amazing now, and i have only changed one oring in the gun since i bought it brand new a year ago. ( just trying to show people that if you take care of a DM/PM it wont eat orings like a fat kid eats cake )




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#7 obsesedwithpb_15

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Posted 22 December 2008 - 10:10 PM

My mini has deff gotten better efficincy since i first got it a year ago. but thats just minis.
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#8 wgp2002

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Posted 22 December 2008 - 10:10 PM

i think there will be a bit of a difference whether it is significant or not is debatable. Springs change after use for no other fact than this the more you use a spring it will wear out and become less stiff. but i think think to be as complete as possible you will need a spool vs poppet and have as close to simmilar inline regs as possible
The lesson here is love your gun dont give a shit about what people say about it.. if it fits you keep it if not move on. I get enough crap from kids who think autocockers are shit when most have never shot one. Every angel I ever shot was smooth but they were out of my range so i went with an autococker instead. Now I have a couple and they are my babies. Love the sport Love your gun whatever it may be and Love yourself .. maybe not in that order. CockerOwnerClub

#9 muska1994

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Posted 22 December 2008 - 10:14 PM

i would try it out for you guys on my G3, but i don't think i can afford 10,000 shots

#10 brycelarson

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Posted 22 December 2008 - 10:18 PM

I would love to do that test. I asked Azreal to attempt the same thing with some of the new regulators that he's testing.

Do you think that the gun has to fire paint - or is just dry firing enough to "break it in"?

We could actually do that as part of the test I suppose.

New out of the box - test two guns
take one and fire 5000 reballs - re-test
take one and fire 5000 dry cycles - re-test

This is a good one for my basement.

#11 Snipez4664

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Posted 23 December 2008 - 02:20 AM

I would love to do that test. I asked Azreal to attempt the same thing with some of the new regulators that he's testing.

Do you think that the gun has to fire paint - or is just dry firing enough to "break it in"?

We could actually do that as part of the test I suppose.

New out of the box - test two guns
take one and fire 5000 reballs - re-test
take one and fire 5000 dry cycles - re-test

This is a good one for my basement.


It shouldn't need to fire paint. Traditionally, break in effect is a combination of a few things:

1. O-ring wear and lube distribution. This creates less friction as the "high" parts of the o-ring gland are tamped down. This occurs because rubber isn't perfectly elastic.

2. In poppet guns, the springs, particularly the valve spring, wears over time. You can accelerate this by "spragging" a spring and leaving it clamped to full compression in a vice, or compressing it and adding heat. Lower spring tension means the valve is open for longer.
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#12 Jack Wood

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Posted 23 December 2008 - 05:56 AM

I'm going to see if I can find a post I made about this on PBN a while back. There are certainly more considerations than you may think.

The biggest "break-in" factor we see is with the solenoids. The performance of most solenoids vary drastically between new, out-of-the-box, and what they are like after 10-20,000 cycles. More-so with direct acting solenoids like the MAC we used on the 07/08 Ego, but still with pilot operated valves, because the pilot is basically a mini direct acting valve.

I'll see if I can find my old post.
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#13 Jack Wood

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Posted 23 December 2008 - 06:07 AM

OK, I found it. I had actually saved it locally on my machine for future reference :)

This was applicable to a question asked in an Ego forum, so should be read in context.

"Ooouuuhh, good question!! About time someone came up with a really interesting point. So I’ll do my best to give a decent answer:-

Breaking in a gun, and the reasons for why and how is best achieved, and even what exactly the individual elements or percentage effect on resultant performance is some-what of a "black science". In other words, as far as I know , no-one has ever tried to quantify what breaking-in is, what it does, the best way to achieve it, or what the empirical difference is between a broken-in v non-broken-in gun is.
I will not lie to you all and tell you that I have all the answers about what happens and why. Hell, I probably don’t know half of the reasons if you start to take everything into account to the nth degree.
Springs are a consideration, for the basic reasons mentioned above, generally speaking, though we do use high-quality pre-stressed springs where possible, that have already been “worked” to a degree, so should not need as much breaking in as you think. It normally only takes a few cycles for a spring to reach its peak. More importantly (and is often overlooked) that springs do deteriorate over a period of cycles. Again, cheaper springs are worse, and wear out quicker than quality ones. I would say at 100,000+ cycles you should be looking to replace reg and valve springs.
Solenoid performance, for a varying number of reasons is also a major consideration in our experience, particularly the new Direct Acting valves in the 07. We found significant performance gains both in operational speed and cycle-to-cycle consistency after a period of 8-10,000 shots.
Then there is seat-forming, which is a consideration for the reg seats in the LPR and in-line (not in our exhaust valves/valve guides, but does effect other manufacturers) regulators. Again, like springs, these need to work in and then can indeed wear-out and collapse. Again, we use the highest possible quality PU materials for these, and now we have fixed the seal retention in the In-line pistons, I think we have the best possible balance between performance and reliability (Note: Like many many things in life, we have to walk a fine line between reliability and performance. Yes, a harder seal material in an in-line reg will give higher flow, and a faster recharge rate, but will also fail much more easily with contamination of any kind. As long as the regulator performs sufficiently well to support the rest of the other mechanical limitations of the rest of the “system” its performance cannot effect the whole).
Finally (I think) we have burnishing (or “polishing”) effect of internal bores. Rammer bores in particular will burnish to a mirror polish over a period of time. Obviously o-ring tolerance, rammer and body tolerance, lubrication (or lack of it) will all effect this process, and we have no way of measuring or quantifying it.

To try and answer the original question: would re-building a gun mean re-breaking-in? Yes and no. If you take it apart, and put it back together with the same parts, then technically, in my mind, it would take 2-3 shots to get all components re-seated and back to their original state.
If you replace any parts (particularly the solenoid in an 07-based gun) then the break-in would be considerably longer. Replacing o-rings can also require working –in, but again, o-rings can wear out, probably more rapidly than any other component. After all they are considered a disposable item for a reason.

Finally, PLEASE save this somewhere where it can be easily referenced for future questions, as I’m not about to type this all out again.

Cheers

Jack Wood"



Finally, I do not agree with dry firing guns. Any guns. I stated this before with the dry-fire efficiency testing. Most guns will rely on some of the blow-back from the ball firing to stop key components hammering togther. I would NEVER recommend anyone to dry fire 500, let alone 10,000 rounds through any gun.
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#14 wmassregulators

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Posted 23 December 2008 - 08:29 AM

I can tell you, when we were building the dc vikings, each one would get broken in before they left
and it did make a difference and if I can dig it up, I have numbers to prove it
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#15 Tucan9999

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Posted 23 December 2008 - 09:21 AM

I took my old Dragon Intimidator about a week agao when i goit my Vice and tested this theory. THIS MAY ONLY BE WTH VICES!
The dragon shot better then teh Vice untill i put about a case through the Vice. After that the Vice shot flawlessly and dident break or chop 1 ball :)

So yeah the gun does need to break in a little
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#16 Snipez4664

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Posted 23 December 2008 - 10:18 AM

Jack,

I'd expect the difference in solenoids is mechanical rather than electrical. What do you think?

I had a thought years ago about selling a lube-like product that had fine grit dispersed in it for the express purpose of polishing the bores (as an aside, do you really think it's burnishing, or is it polishing/lubricant impregnation that is occurring?)

For the longevity of certain poppet components, dry firing is a bad idea - stick something in the barrel to get some back pressure. This is generally common sense, for aural reasons.
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#17 Jack Wood

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Posted 23 December 2008 - 12:34 PM

Common Sense and Paintball do not mix well............

So you mean like a grinding/lapping paste? Not sure about that. You would never get it 100% out of the system, I'm sure.

Mmm, yea, the more I look at it the more it looks like impregnation could certainly be contributary factor. Over time the bores do "level out". The exact terminology of an o-ring rubbing on the inside of a bore, I am not sure of! Polishing? Honing? Burnishing? And what difference this has in real terms I am not sure. More so the eradication of the flange/lip around the exterior of the o-rings will have a larger impact.

And yes, the solenoid performance increase is a mechanical issue, though we have also seen changes to the magnetism of the armature inside the coil over a period of time. But basically, yes I was referring to the mechanical break-in of the solenoid, rather than anything specifically electrical.
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#18 brycelarson

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Posted 23 December 2008 - 12:57 PM

Mmm, yea, the more I look at it the more it looks like impregnation could certainly be contributary factor. Over time the bores do "level out". The exact terminology of an o-ring rubbing on the inside of a bore, I am not sure of! Polishing? Honing? Burnishing? the coil over a period of time. But basically, yes I was referring to the mechanical break-in of the solenoid, rather than anything specifically electrical.



I think burnishing is the closest description. that would imply a smooth surface working only through friction - polishing and honing would imply that a cutting agent of some kind was involved.

When I'm talking burnishing in sculpture - normally you're talking using a hard object to smooth a surface - ie the back of a spoon. It involved pressure, but not a cutting medium.

I would think that o-rings on metal is a good analogy.

#19 slinkyaroo

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Posted 23 December 2008 - 01:04 PM

I think testing a new and broken in reg would be good.

ie. CP new, CP repacked and CP used for consistency

This would help the kids crying about their new markers fluxing too much.


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Edited by slinkyaroo, 24 December 2008 - 02:17 PM.


#20 Snipez4664

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Posted 23 December 2008 - 02:04 PM

I think burnishing is the closest description. that would imply a smooth surface working only through friction - polishing and honing would imply that a cutting agent of some kind was involved.

I would think that o-rings on metal is a good analogy.


http://en.wikipedia...._(metalworking)

I am unsure if an o-ring actually transmits enough force (via preload) to make any difference in the surface structure of the metal. Perhaps. When I look at producing a barrel, I often consider roller burnishing the bore.

Jack,

You'd never get it all out all right - the trouble is the non-serviceable solenoid. Although the gun for which the scheme was devised did not incorporate a solenoid in the traditional sense....FWIW I was inspired by extrude honing.
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#21 Hunter_D

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Posted 23 December 2008 - 04:29 PM

I'd be more than happy to contribute to the "breaking in" of a gun with the arrival of my newest Promaster! :wub:

#22 cockerpunk

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Posted 23 December 2008 - 06:01 PM

i think this depends alot on the design of the marker.

in a gun like an automag, .0002 inches on the power tube oring can mean the differnce from bolt stick every shot to your level 10 bouncing off the most brittle paint.

but on a gun like an autococker or your typical stacked tube poppit valve, that just doesn't matter as much.
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#23 Poe

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Posted 23 December 2008 - 10:34 PM

i think this depends alot on the design of the marker.

in a gun like an automag, .0002 inches on the power tube oring can mean the differnce from bolt stick every shot to your level 10 bouncing off the most brittle paint.

but on a gun like an autococker or your typical stacked tube poppit valve, that just doesn't matter as much.


As little as 0.0002?! I wouldn't have thought.

#24 italian mobster

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Posted 24 December 2008 - 12:29 AM

why am i so stupid
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#25 cockerpunk

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Posted 24 December 2008 - 02:00 AM

i think this depends alot on the design of the marker.

in a gun like an automag, .0002 inches on the power tube oring can mean the differnce from bolt stick every shot to your level 10 bouncing off the most brittle paint.

but on a gun like an autococker or your typical stacked tube poppit valve, that just doesn't matter as much.


As little as 0.0002?! I wouldn't have thought.


most of the automag valve system is precision ground, 200 millionths is cake for a grinder to stay accurate.

and yeah, the reason for all the different level 10 spacers is becuase of variation in the orings, not the gun or bolt. the tolerances issue is the oring itself.
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#26 hey no way

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Posted 24 December 2008 - 02:04 AM

bob long intimidator series are definite break in guns. vices are quite persnickity about that
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#27 Jack Wood

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Posted 24 December 2008 - 04:38 AM

Extrude honing is amazing. I'd love to have that done to the head of my car.

O-ring tolerance is BY FAR the biggest ball-ache we have. Compared to the tolerance that we can hold on machined parts, the o-rings area joke. We have to stick to a sole supplier of o-rings to have any chance of keeping any kind of consitency of fit and feel in the parts. And even then it is pot-luck what you get from week to week.

Edited by Jack Wood, 24 December 2008 - 04:39 AM.

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#28 Snipez4664

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Posted 24 December 2008 - 09:11 AM

Extrude honing is amazing. I'd love to have that done to the head of my car.

O-ring tolerance is BY FAR the biggest ball-ache we have. Compared to the tolerance that we can hold on machined parts, the o-rings area joke. We have to stick to a sole supplier of o-rings to have any chance of keeping any kind of consitency of fit and feel in the parts. And even then it is pot-luck what you get from week to week.


As an aside, I just found a new donor swap engine for my car (BMW E30) - I wonder how much extrude honing would run...

Absolutely agree. I once went so far as to design a groove system that maintains a constant sealing force on the O-ring for a gun in which the friction was critical on the only spool seal involved. You can imagine it as rather CVT like, but I was never sure how the air pressure flux would affect it. So many things that I never get around to testing outside of my brain :(

I think that a really lost art is that of O-ring selection - on any gun we care about between me and my brother, we'll test fit parts with the O-rings we've just put on - you can tell a bad one from a good one quite easily. The ol' hand dynamometer (This compliments Snipez's world famous 'finger calipers') The shocker guys have caught on to this pretty recently, to the point where it's becoming 'common' knowledge.

For those that don't know, the total sealing diameter difference on O-rings is generally +-.003 at the diametric ridge from the 'actual' dimension. I'd say in most guns this can be worth up to 30fps, depending on settings.
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#29 crusificton

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Posted 24 December 2008 - 09:46 AM

I would imagine it would be difficult to accurately control this test considering that I think that companies actual try their guns out for a few shots to ensure they function. I know with my ego that was well lubed brand new was probably seven times.

#30 Lucas

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Posted 24 December 2008 - 02:15 PM

it may depend on the gun as well beyond the difference of valves.. maybe throw some old guns in like mags or cockers compared to lux's .. maybe bob longs would be a good test subject old vs new


I agree with you,
depending on which guns and how they operate whether it be spool, poppet, or other different features will determine your results.
But I think if you take a variety of guns brand new y ou could come to a reasonable conclusion.

#31 Nefarious79

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Posted 24 December 2008 - 02:32 PM

which one performs better the worn out one or the new one hmmm................

#32 TechPB-Mike

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Posted 24 December 2008 - 04:42 PM

Gordon & Bryce, what would be an ideal gun to test this out on?

Spool? Poppet?

I'm thinking spool, just because of the amount of oring surface area you get with a spool

#33 brycelarson

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Posted 24 December 2008 - 04:54 PM

Gordon & Bryce, what would be an ideal gun to test this out on?

Spool? Poppet?

I'm thinking spool, just because of the amount of oring surface area you get with a spool


I would think that if it's an o-ring thing - spool.

However, if it's a regulator thing - then anything with a HPR and LPR.

If it's a spring thing - poppet.

So, I guess the answer is - I dunno.

#34 Cheap-o

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Posted 24 December 2008 - 05:03 PM

get a couple minis, and a couple PMr's or G3's if its going to be money issue... everyones got a mini or a g3

#35 Nefarious79

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Posted 24 December 2008 - 05:05 PM

I dont, care to share?

#36 VICE_ROY

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Posted 24 December 2008 - 09:06 PM

I believe that guns shoot smoother and more consistent after you get a few cases through them.

The test would have to be done to prove this, but the first few hundred rounds through my Vice consisted of one chop and a few breaks. After getting a little over a case through it, I could play all day, shoot over a case, and get zero ball breakage, and no chops.

It also seems as if my Vice has started to get a little bit smoother and consistent now that I've got nearly 6 cases through it, but I don't have any evidence to support that.
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#37 chewiestmonkey

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Posted 24 December 2008 - 11:52 PM

why not test both? see what happens =]
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#38 Iram

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Posted 26 December 2008 - 10:32 AM

I think there's a biological component here that's not being takin into account. I know when I do anything that changes the way a marker shoots, or switch to a new marker, I play like shit for the first two days. It just takes me time to get used to the different feel, different grip angle, etc., of the new gun. "Muscle memory", or whatever you want to call it, definately plays a role (at least for me).

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I haven't done formal testing, but this is what I've observed with my last few guns.

PMR SE: Velocity was +/-10 to +/-15 right out of the box. One shot would be 260, the next 280. After putting several cases (probably around 10-20 cases total), the consistancy is generally +/-3 fps.

Custom Timmy (Hyper2 inline reg): When initially build, the consistancy was about +/-10 fps (260-280 fps). After two cases, it was down to +/-3 or 4 fps. I then took the hole gun apart, duracoated it, and put it back together. It was then shooting +/-10 fps again. After the first half case, it was down to shooting +/- 3fps.

Autococker SR: Initially, it was shooting about +/-12 fps. Started leaking after the first ~600 rounds. Just got it back from WGP after the repair...




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