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#1 brycelarson

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Posted 24 August 2010 - 08:05 PM

Video and more stuff upcoming

Here's some fun stuff:

https://spreadsheets...=en&output=html

Posted Image
set 1




Posted Image
set 2



Posted Image
set 3



Posted Image
set 4



Posted Image
set 5

#2 cockerpunk

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Posted 24 August 2010 - 08:19 PM

set 4 - lol

you guys will like the video.
The ultimate truth in paintball is that the interaction between the gun and the player is far and away the largest factor in accuracy, consistency, and reliability.

And yes, Gordon is the sexiest manifestation of "to the front."


#3 lovebunny

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Posted 24 August 2010 - 08:41 PM

thats cool!
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#4 cockerpunk

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Posted 25 August 2010 - 08:49 AM

need the video ...
The ultimate truth in paintball is that the interaction between the gun and the player is far and away the largest factor in accuracy, consistency, and reliability.

And yes, Gordon is the sexiest manifestation of "to the front."


#5 brycelarson

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Posted 25 August 2010 - 09:10 AM



chill dude.



#6 UV Halo

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Posted 25 August 2010 - 11:00 AM

I can't watch the video yet (office blocks it) but, I have one question, and one comment.

In Set 1, what was the Sniper's pump position?

Set 4 does not seem to be labeled correctly. Table says "Orange, Blue, Red" Picture shows Red, Blue, Green. Are the fields just offset one column to the left or, is 'orange' supposed to be 'green'?

Overall, Great Work guys! I can't wait to see the video. I find it amusing that the software has a simulated brushed aluminum/steel 'finish' around the displays... 1990's software? or their developers not having a clue on interface design? :P

#7 Lord Odin

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Posted 25 August 2010 - 11:45 AM

Very cool stuff!

Could you guys try out a single marker and change out a single part (bolt for example)? I'm wondering if our perception of "loud" comes from certain frequencies or if it will apply across the spectrum, like we're seeing so far.

#8 cockerpunk

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Posted 25 August 2010 - 12:06 PM

Very cool stuff!

Could you guys try out a single marker and change out a single part (bolt for example)? I'm wondering if our perception of "loud" comes from certain frequencies or if it will apply across the spectrum, like we're seeing so far.


yes, that is what we are thinking too. notice the sniper and other guns have a low frequency bump, but some guns don't?

we don't personally own any multi-bolt guns ... maybe a cocker. if you still have all those M98 bolts, have an M98 to test them on .... ;)

this test is ment to be pretty open ended. keep any suggestions coming!
The ultimate truth in paintball is that the interaction between the gun and the player is far and away the largest factor in accuracy, consistency, and reliability.

And yes, Gordon is the sexiest manifestation of "to the front."


#9 UV Halo

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Posted 25 August 2010 - 12:21 PM


Very cool stuff!

Could you guys try out a single marker and change out a single part (bolt for example)? I'm wondering if our perception of "loud" comes from certain frequencies or if it will apply across the spectrum, like we're seeing so far.


yes, that is what we are thinking too. notice the sniper and other guns have a low frequency bump, but some guns don't?

we don't personally own any multi-bolt guns ... maybe a cocker. if you still have all those M98 bolts, have an M98 to test them on .... Posted Image

this test is ment to be pretty open ended. keep any suggestions coming!


An Ion would be the best platform for Bolt to Bolt comparison. Even I have three bolts that differ pretty significantly in design:
DW Hollowpoint (not the current with the pillow front): big opening in front and in back
Orange Unicorn Nano Extreme (spring closing tail section): Big opening in front, lots of porting in back
Stock Bolt (porting front and back).

If you guys have (or can get the Ion) it'd be much easier for folks to send you bolts rather than full on guns. Sending in my Ion is not really in option only because of it's bulk and weight Posted Image

#10 brycelarson

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Posted 25 August 2010 - 12:24 PM

yeah we have an Ion. It's bone stock - so it makes a good testing platform.

and yes, Set 4 - blue is SR, Red is Ice Epic and Green is Emag.

Edited by brycelarson, 25 August 2010 - 12:24 PM.


#11 Lord Odin

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Posted 25 August 2010 - 12:28 PM

yes, that is what we are thinking too. notice the sniper and other guns have a low frequency bump, but some guns don't?

we don't personally own any multi-bolt guns ... maybe a cocker. if you still have all those M98 bolts, have an M98 to test them on .... ;)

this test is ment to be pretty open ended. keep any suggestions coming!


Unfortunately all of my bolts and powertubes are for the A5/X7. The bolts would work for the 98 but the most noticeable sound difference was the powertube, IMO, because some were metal and some were plastic. Unfortunately, they would be incompatible with the 98. Unless you guys have an A5 or X7 laying around, you might wanna try a different marker but using the same principle.

#12 Latsabb

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Posted 25 August 2010 - 12:29 PM

I am sorry that this is a bit off topic (ok, way off topic) but am I the only one that watches and listens to cockerpunk, and feels like it is Michael Cera or Jesse Eisenberg telling me about paintball? lol. I noticed it first with the classic gun shows, but it just makes me chuckle more each time.
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#13 cockerpunk

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Posted 25 August 2010 - 12:34 PM



Very cool stuff!

Could you guys try out a single marker and change out a single part (bolt for example)? I'm wondering if our perception of "loud" comes from certain frequencies or if it will apply across the spectrum, like we're seeing so far.


yes, that is what we are thinking too. notice the sniper and other guns have a low frequency bump, but some guns don't?

we don't personally own any multi-bolt guns ... maybe a cocker. if you still have all those M98 bolts, have an M98 to test them on .... Posted Image

this test is ment to be pretty open ended. keep any suggestions coming!


An Ion would be the best platform for Bolt to Bolt comparison. Even I have three bolts that differ pretty significantly in design:
DW Hollowpoint (not the current with the pillow front): big opening in front and in back
Orange Unicorn Nano Extreme (spring closing tail section): Big opening in front, lots of porting in back
Stock Bolt (porting front and back).

If you guys have (or can get the Ion) it'd be much easier for folks to send you bolts rather than full on guns. Sending in my Ion is not really in option only because of it's bulk and weight Posted Image


the trouble with usign the ion, is typically in spool valves, aftermarket bolt designs are made for increased effienecy and smoothness and thus change how the gun functions. if thats that you want to list for, then thats good, but i think odin was interested in how the air flowing through the bolt effects the sound, becuase poppit valves have a much easier time changing the bolt face there are tons of options, like open, venturi and such.



yes, that is what we are thinking too. notice the sniper and other guns have a low frequency bump, but some guns don't?

we don't personally own any multi-bolt guns ... maybe a cocker. if you still have all those M98 bolts, have an M98 to test them on .... ;)

this test is ment to be pretty open ended. keep any suggestions coming!


Unfortunately all of my bolts and powertubes are for the A5/X7. The bolts would work for the 98 but the most noticeable sound difference was the powertube, IMO, because some were metal and some were plastic. Unfortunately, they would be incompatible with the 98. Unless you guys have an A5 or X7 laying around, you might wanna try a different marker but using the same principle.


im thinking cocker/sniper might be the best platform. i think between the odd cockers me and bryce have we could look at that. or a limited investment over on MCB of a smattering of bolts.
The ultimate truth in paintball is that the interaction between the gun and the player is far and away the largest factor in accuracy, consistency, and reliability.

And yes, Gordon is the sexiest manifestation of "to the front."


#14 UV Halo

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Posted 25 August 2010 - 12:41 PM

yeah we have an Ion. It's bone stock - so it makes a good testing platform.

and yes, Set 4 - blue is SR, Red is Ice Epic and Green is Emag.


I'll send you my two aftermarket bolts depending on when you'd like them and how long you would need them. See if you can get some other models (i.e. TechT L7v2, Firebolt), etc, and you'll have a pretty broad array.

Here's an idea for other related testing.- to the best of your ability isolate 'marker action' from barrel noise:
Build a sound absorbing box with only two openings- One for the barrel to stick out, and another for the hand (each as tight as possible).

With the same marker configuration, fire the marker within and, outside of the box. Analyze the differences.
I've recently found that there's a pretty good amount of noise that appeard to emanate from the bodies of both my Ion and my T9 (when I've had the barrel under several pillows and a blanket or two). Possible causes: vibrations due to mechanical impacts, and rapid pressurization and depressurization of chambers within the marker.

#15 brycelarson

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Posted 25 August 2010 - 01:03 PM

I'll send you my two aftermarket bolts depending on when you'd like them and how long you would need them. See if you can get some other models (i.e. TechT L7v2, Firebolt), etc, and you'll have a pretty broad array.

Here's an idea for other related testing.- to the best of your ability isolate 'marker action' from barrel noise:
Build a sound absorbing box with only two openings- One for the barrel to stick out, and another for the hand (each as tight as possible).

With the same marker configuration, fire the marker within and, outside of the box. Analyze the differences.
I've recently found that there's a pretty good amount of noise that appeard to emanate from the bodies of both my Ion and my T9 (when I've had the barrel under several pillows and a blanket or two). Possible causes: vibrations due to mechanical impacts, and rapid pressurization and depressurization of chambers within the marker.


that's an interesting idea - but I don't know how applicable it is in play. I know a ton of noise comes off the SR body - but it's going to do that when you're playing - so I just assume that's part of the gun.

#16 bvdave

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Posted 25 August 2010 - 01:09 PM

video just doesnt do this test justice, I know your pain from shooting the cannoniser indoors, but on video it doesnt sound too much louder then the normal shots
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#17 cockerpunk

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Posted 25 August 2010 - 01:19 PM

video just doesnt do this test justice, I know your pain from shooting the cannoniser indoors, but on video it doesnt sound too much louder then the normal shots


yeah, i was disappointed. teh SR littearlly hurt your ears when we shot it. bryce said it was 20+ db louder then then Emag, and about 5 db louder then the Epic.

crazy loud.
The ultimate truth in paintball is that the interaction between the gun and the player is far and away the largest factor in accuracy, consistency, and reliability.

And yes, Gordon is the sexiest manifestation of "to the front."


#18 jdlarson11

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Posted 25 August 2010 - 01:25 PM


video just doesnt do this test justice, I know your pain from shooting the cannoniser indoors, but on video it doesnt sound too much louder then the normal shots


yeah, i was disappointed. teh SR littearlly hurt your ears when we shot it. bryce said it was 20+ db louder then then Emag, and about 5 db louder then the Epic.

crazy loud.



Helen Keller could even hear the SR shoot...Posted Image , thats a LOUD ass gun...

Edited by jdlarson11, 25 August 2010 - 01:26 PM.


#19 Lord Odin

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Posted 25 August 2010 - 02:23 PM

the trouble with usign the ion, is typically in spool valves, aftermarket bolt designs are made for increased effienecy and smoothness and thus change how the gun functions. if thats that you want to list for, then thats good, but i think odin was interested in how the air flowing through the bolt effects the sound, becuase poppit valves have a much easier time changing the bolt face there are tons of options, like open, venturi and such.


I'm more interested in the material being used that the bolt design, itself, although I would be interested in that type of testing, too. We know that metal conducts sounds very well and I always hear people talk about how metal internals make a marker sound louder than plastic internals. So I'm wondering how big of a role it plays. Specifically, whether people notice DB's or frequencies better.

#20 jdlarson11

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Posted 25 August 2010 - 07:16 PM

Do you guys know the total decibel readings of each gun?

you can get close by estimating the center of the curve. I've got most of the curves saved individually. Which one you looking at?

Edited by brycelarson, 25 August 2010 - 08:21 PM.


#21 jdlarson11

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Posted 25 August 2010 - 08:43 PM

Do you guys know the total decibel readings of each gun?

you can get close by estimating the center of the curve. I've got most of the curves saved individually. Which one you looking at?


I just want to know what the SR peak DB was atand how does that compare to a normal pistol (9mm/45)

Edited by jdlarson11, 25 August 2010 - 08:43 PM.


#22 brycelarson

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Posted 25 August 2010 - 09:41 PM

the test mic I'm using I made - so it's not calibrated. I've got an SPL meter - I can certainly check next time we do this.

#23 lovebunny

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Posted 26 August 2010 - 09:43 AM

im thinking a stock AKP is louder then the sr?
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#24 brycelarson

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Posted 26 August 2010 - 10:08 AM

We'll test it.

#25 lovebunny

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Posted 26 August 2010 - 10:21 AM

We'll test it.


a stock farting one?

ore a tuned one with a reg and the goodies?
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#26 brycelarson

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Posted 26 August 2010 - 10:22 AM

I can slap the gas through back on it - but even with a reg it still farts exactly the same way.

#27 lovebunny

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Posted 26 August 2010 - 11:19 AM

I can slap the gas through back on it - but even with a reg it still farts exactly the same way.


yeah it thous.. but keep it stock,
and hey trow in the reg and se if theres any diffrens
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#28 chem daddy

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Posted 27 August 2010 - 07:32 PM

I wonder if your mic is picking up AC line noise. Allmost all the FFTs show a feature at ~60-63 Hz. Alot of times this is indicative of a ground loop pickup.
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#29 brycelarson

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Posted 28 August 2010 - 07:18 AM

yeah, that's possible. We did have some without the feature at 60 hz, so I'm not sure. The other possibility is that it's a room reflection. A 60 hz wave should be about 15 feet long - and that would be about the distance from the gun past the trap into that alcove.

I use that system pretty regularly and it's normally very clean - but the power in my basement might be a bit sketchy - something I intend to re-do when I put the walls back.

#30 nwi.pballer32

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Posted 28 August 2010 - 10:57 AM

etek 3 sound test!!

#31 chem daddy

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Posted 28 August 2010 - 01:46 PM

Watching the first video again, It looks like the 60 Hz peak is also prominent when you are not shooting, leading me to be more confident that it is AC line noise. Did you guys do a background subtraction? That will probably remove most of the 60 Hz and give you the spectrum of sound due only to the marker firing.

I don't know that much about acoustics, but would integrating the FFT as a function of frequency give you an indication of overall loudness? This would give a single number to compair vs looking at the entire spectrum. (I may be totally off base here, let me know if I'm wrong)

I think what you guys are doing is great, working on the science behind paintball. So much in PB is vodoo & myth, it's good to see people testing things and thinking for themselves.
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#32 cockerpunk

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Posted 28 August 2010 - 04:11 PM

indeed, i'd love to compute the area under the curve, but this software doesn't output pure data very well. thats the difference in an engineering software package and an audio-tech software package.

were working on a better method, but its hard to do. we'll see.
The ultimate truth in paintball is that the interaction between the gun and the player is far and away the largest factor in accuracy, consistency, and reliability.

And yes, Gordon is the sexiest manifestation of "to the front."


#33 brycelarson

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Posted 28 August 2010 - 05:20 PM

I can clarify things a bit. The microphone we're using isn't a calibrated mic. Those cost a few hundred bucks. This is a microphone I made that uses the same panasonic mic capsule used in most commercial test mics.

This mic may not represent exactly what the real curve of these guns - nor can it tell us actual db levels. It is very close. I've checked it against calibrated mics and it's within 3 db at pretty much the whole 20-20000 hz range. I have not checked the db reading against a calibrated mic. So, what this means is that this mic may not show exactly the correct frequency db level - BUT when we're using it to compare two signals it will give a very accurate comparison.

I do own a calibrated db meter - so we can certainly check some guns and post the raw db number.

and yeah, next time we set up I'll throw my phones on the preamp and take a listen. I've heard a lot of 60 hz hum in my day - it's very apparent.

I wouldn't look at that lump too much, human ears are really bad at locating and distinguishing low frequency sounds - the mid and high freq stuff is going to be WAY more important when talking about something like gun loudness.

#34 Lord Odin

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Posted 06 October 2010 - 09:24 AM

Have you guys tested loudeners? Flasc, Lapco, and Opsgear all make a dishka/cannonizer/loudener. Was wondering if a cone aimed towards the target or a wider cone makes it louder.

BTW, have you guys tested the sound signatures in front as well as off to the side?

#35 cockerpunk

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Posted 06 October 2010 - 10:13 AM

front and side test is on the list. we only have one loudener and thats the flasc.
The ultimate truth in paintball is that the interaction between the gun and the player is far and away the largest factor in accuracy, consistency, and reliability.

And yes, Gordon is the sexiest manifestation of "to the front."





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