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Request for Loader Speed Tests ...


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#1 cdrinkh20

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Posted 19 January 2011 - 02:21 PM

Taken from a post I made on SpecOps:

I think someone who owns these needs to do some BPS tests - especially on the loaders with various settings.
For example, I was trying to figure out how many Qloader pre-winds I will need to have it keep up with my Tac One (RT at 1200 psi) - no such info on the internet, at least when I had last searched. I'll have to basically guess and check with different pre-wind settings (plus, I don't actually know how fast it fires as of yet - I don't own a chrono).

I figured it would be good to know for other loaders as well, such as the Empire Prophecy I picked up - it has 6 different motor speeds which can be tuned - plus it has a tension detection method (don't remember the details), but this slows the ROF somewhat, from what I read. The magnetic clutch can be adjusted for brittle paint (softer), but a stiffer clutch will also increase feed speed.

If somebody with a high-end electronic marker could change their settings to cap ROF at certain levels, then test to see if the loader keeps up, then we could determine the *minumum* required settings/loader to keep up with the marker. This way, it could use less batteries, or in the case of the Qloader in particular, be gentler on paint (more prewinds = more tension on the balls).

Of course, I'm sure small things could affect these tests - they would have to be done with fresh batteries, the same brand of paintballs (from the same batch as much as possible), etc.


Thoughts?

#2 cockerpunk

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Posted 19 January 2011 - 02:39 PM

i have always wanted to rig something up to test loader speeds, have not had the chance to yet. our rig would be bascially the same as simon from KEEs. a high speed camera pointed at the loader mouth which has just one ball out of it. then a little finger would push the ball out of the way at exteremly high speed and we would then watch and count the frames until the next ball is loaded. that gives us a pretty good idea of speed.

issues that PW has in testing this:

1. we'd have to build the rig (not taht hard)
2. we dont own anything by revis and prophs, we'd have to get our hands on the other super loaders

but, if the PW crew could supply us with the loaders, i'd be more then happey to try it out.
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#3 Lord Odin

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Posted 19 January 2011 - 03:49 PM

I see problems running into beyond the 2nd shot though. As we've seen from Wood's videos, the stack has a great deal of influence on the balls; they interact with each other. The first ball (or few balls, actually) might load correctly but once it has to feed fast, the motor and settings kick in and I think that's where its limitations come into play. Otherwise we'd simply be going off of drop tests and we all know that those aren't the final word in loader speed.

Are we talking feed rates in real situations (similar to the TechPB Speed Contest), drop rate, or a Reball-like feed rate where clipping and breaks don't count but still offers resistance to the loader?

Also, how could the Cyclone be added to the test?

Edited by Lord Odin, 19 January 2011 - 03:54 PM.


#4 cockerpunk

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Posted 19 January 2011 - 03:53 PM

the second shot should load exactly like the first shot, given that the stack will have enough time to calm down while the gun is cycling (gun cycle times are nearly always 10-30 ms). that one ball load time is the true feed speed of the system.
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#5 Latsabb

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Posted 19 January 2011 - 03:59 PM

What if you had a tube to simulate a barrel that a loader and compressor could hook up to? Take two pieces of your favorite tubing (PVC for example) and put a T shaped junction on it in the middle for example. The loader attaches to that T junction in the middle, with the compressor supplying, lets say 100 PSI from one end. As the balls drop into the tubing, they are blow out the other end. It would be like a gun that didnt have a bolt, just steady air. Have the T junction transparent, and put the high speed there. The only thing I see wrong with this is that the balls MIGHT be affected by the constant air, as some of that air would push against the ball stack. But I am not sure that it would be significant enough to really impact things, especially with tension based loaders.
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#6 Latsabb

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Posted 19 January 2011 - 04:02 PM

the second shot should load exactly like the first shot, given that the stack will have enough time to calm down while the gun is cycling (gun cycle times are nearly always 10-30 ms). that one ball load time is the true feed speed of the system.


This is true, but I think they are speaking more about the fact that the loaders do not always get the balls down as fast under heavy firing rates. The Pinokio for example sometimes skips a bit, or can kind of popcorn around rather than having a perfectly steady stream. When you first start shooting it is fine, because the ball stack is already up and ready, but once that prop gets going, it is not all that steady of a feed.
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#7 cdrinkh20

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Posted 19 January 2011 - 05:07 PM

Yeah, I was thinking mostly of a constant rate of fire at various settings, rather than maximum (though I'm sure some would be interested in that).
I got the Prophecy hoping I could get it to handle my new Tac One's RT effect as much as possible, considering I have an input of 1200 psi.

#8 Troy

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Posted 20 January 2011 - 09:32 AM

Get a feedneck, attach it to a loader. Suspend the contraption above a spinning plate with holes or slots cut out for paintballs to drop freely through. Spin the disk via an electric motor that you can vary it's speed (an electric motor attached wired to a potentiometer would work, or an electric drill could fit the bill in a pinch). Vary the speed of the disk until the loader fails (might be messy ;)). I'll let you decide what you consider to be a good amount of paintballs flowing through the disk to consider the loader ok at that rate of speed.

Once you know the frequency at which the holes are crossing the feedneck and how long the loader ran, you can calculate how many balls should have made it through. Then, you can count all the balls that made it and figure out how many skips you had.

Btw, I would also like to point out that loader performance varies significantly based on the batteries that feed them. It would be a good idea to get a DC power supply and wire it up to the loader to control that possible variable. Of course, it would also be interesting to see how fast they wear down a battery, and how well they deal with lower than optimum amounts of current (which is another good argument for a variable DC power supply)

Edited by Troy, 20 January 2011 - 09:57 AM.

\m/

#9 Troy

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Posted 20 January 2011 - 09:45 AM

...another thought. IF it's more of a reciprical motion that you are looking for, you may be interested in my hydration bladder test rig below:
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I'm sure you guys could use that as a template to make a reciprocating "bolt" with a very predictable, and repeatable cycle rate.
\m/

#10 Ice

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Posted 22 January 2011 - 11:57 AM

I think that consistency is more important than highest speed but once you make the rig you can test both. It would be more important for me to know for example that a rotor could load at 15bps through an entire hopper of paint with no missed or delayed shots than it would be for me to know that it hit 37bps but was inconsistent at that speed.

As for the actual test, I think the best option would be constant air in a T formation, but I'd make the pipe on the 'barrel' side a larger diameter and very short. That way no air pressure would ever push the ball stack up. When a paintball is in the breach all the force would be pushing it out the 'barrel' side. As the ball moves forward there is plenty of space for pressure to escape so as to not push against the stack.
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#11 Lord Odin

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Posted 22 January 2011 - 02:12 PM

Thought of a better way to word it.

Wouldn't measuring a single ball change only show the stack's load tension? In other words, just crank up the tension on the loader and it's max setting would be its feed rate with this test. The loader only has to load 1 more ball without issue for it to be a successful test. It doesn't measure the loaders ability to keep up with a feed rate.

#12 Ice

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Posted 22 January 2011 - 03:11 PM

I found a good example.


The guy babbles and plays with his camera for a while so skip to 2:20 in. This is him shooting uncapped ramp with the NXe. He hits up to 28 bps, but it is not one long uninterrupted string. BPS jumps all over the place and there are plenty of feed skips. Now skip to 3:25 where he shoots uncapped ramp with the rotor. He says it only hit 22 bps, but it was almost a perfect string and much better compared to the NXe. That, IMO, is much more important than top speed. For simplicity and actual usefulness, I would propose testing different hoppers on your fastest marker with an adjustable BPS cap. Start it at 12bps and count the number of interruptions in the string over a period of time. Then do it again at 15bps, 18bps, 20bps, and then finally uncapped ramp. There is no reason to devise a testing rig as long as you're using the same marker in every test. Isn't that much simpler, and a more useful test?
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#13 LieutenantDan

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Posted 22 January 2011 - 06:04 PM

I feel like the loader speed would very from marker to marker based on their operation, so this test would be incredibly difficult to do and get meaningful results...
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#14 cockerpunk

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Posted 22 January 2011 - 06:18 PM

I feel like the loader speed would very from marker to marker based on their operation, so this test would be incredibly difficult to do and get meaningful results...


which is why we test the business end of it, and test the ball load speed.
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#15 Troy

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Posted 23 January 2011 - 09:26 AM


I feel like the loader speed would very from marker to marker based on their operation, so this test would be incredibly difficult to do and get meaningful results...


which is why we test the business end of it, and test the ball load speed.


Agreed. I also think that an apparatus as prone to chopping as possible if the loader makes a mistake (in other words, no cure bolt, no soft touch bolt, no graduated speed, and no level 10 kit etc) would be good as well. If a loader can load paint fast enough into a device that is made to chop paint without breaks, we can create a baseline, then we'll know it'll work on any marker.
\m/

#16 Ice

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Posted 23 January 2011 - 11:26 AM



I feel like the loader speed would very from marker to marker based on their operation, so this test would be incredibly difficult to do and get meaningful results...


which is why we test the business end of it, and test the ball load speed.


Agreed. I also think that an apparatus as prone to chopping as possible if the loader makes a mistake (in other words, no cure bolt, no soft touch bolt, no graduated speed, and no level 10 kit etc) would be good as well. If a loader can load paint fast enough into a device that is made to chop paint without breaks, we can create a baseline, then we'll know it'll work on any marker.

I happen to have a piranha with T-board with no eyes. Can be set up to 40 bps and makes a nice squirt gun. ;) I think it would be better to do it on a gun that only fires when a ball is fed though, because it is much easier to diagnose a string based on the sound of the gun shooting (like in that video I posted) than to go back and watch the tape and try to count broken balls. That's if you trust the eyes of the marker 100%...
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#17 Lord Odin

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Posted 23 January 2011 - 11:42 AM

Perhaps you could use an apparatus like Troy's rig but use varying "bolts". That way, we can see if certain loaders are more prone to certain issues than others or if they all suffer from the same problems.

#18 Troy

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Posted 23 January 2011 - 07:17 PM

Perhaps you could use an apparatus like Troy's rig but use varying "bolts". That way, we can see if certain loaders are more prone to certain issues than others or if they all suffer from the same problems.


That would be an interesting way to test bolts against each other... and bolts are pretty cheap ;)
\m/

#19 lovebunny

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Posted 23 January 2011 - 09:42 PM

i think the speed king contest is a good test abuot loader testes..

the rotor cappet out at what 23bps? magna 25?
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