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G6R Break-In testing


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#1 brycelarson

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Posted 24 January 2011 - 01:13 PM

Hey guys,

So, 2 scuba tanks and 20,000 shots later we've got some interesting data.

Here's the video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FbE7pmGKsYE

Here's the data sheet:
https://spreadsheets...=en&output=html

Here's the internal wear (or lack thereof) after 20,000 cycles

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Edited by brycelarson, 24 January 2011 - 07:56 PM.


#2 Millertime

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Posted 24 January 2011 - 03:00 PM

First! lol

ROFLMAO that is an epic ball catcher. Very innovative design.

And Cocker's hair = epic awesomeness.

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#3 betasniper

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Posted 24 January 2011 - 03:14 PM

"This video is unavailable"

?

And now it works

Edited by betasniper, 24 January 2011 - 03:15 PM.

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#4 Danny D

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Posted 24 January 2011 - 03:43 PM

Looks like it finishes stabalizing after the first 100 shots. The standard deviations after that are all within the norms recorded after each case.

Well done! That looks like a lot of work.

Edited by Danny D, 24 January 2011 - 03:44 PM.


#5 Lord Odin

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Posted 24 January 2011 - 04:32 PM

Very cool Reball catcher!

#6 .SP0NGE.

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Posted 24 January 2011 - 04:46 PM

Very cool! I love it. :)

#7 brycelarson

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Posted 24 January 2011 - 05:09 PM

Looks like it finishes stabalizing after the first 100 shots. The standard deviations after that are all within the norms recorded after each case.

Well done! That looks like a lot of work.


I used that sliding 25 shot SD calc. shot #114 was the first 25 shot string that dropped below the long term SD - so IMO shots 90-114 were as consistent as anything else we shot. So yes, I call it 90. Sorry Danny - I think you guessed 120 in the contest. :) I think you were closest - but Price Is Right rules declare that you have to be closest w/o going over. :)

And actually, once we got the rig set up it wasn't terrible. Here's a tip - lubricate reballs. life is good when things are a bit slippery :)

#8 Danny D

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Posted 24 January 2011 - 07:14 PM

I used that sliding 25 shot SD calc. shot #114 was the first 25 shot string that dropped below the long term SD - so IMO shots 90-114 were as consistent as anything else we shot. So yes, I call it 90. Sorry Danny - I think you guessed 120 in the contest. Posted Image I think you were closest - but Price Is Right rules declare that you have to be closest w/o going over. Posted Image

And actually, once we got the rig set up it wasn't terrible. Here's a tip - lubricate reballs. life is good when things are a bit slippery Posted Image


Hey, no problem Bryce. Posted Image

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#9 Jacobk123

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Posted 24 January 2011 - 10:09 PM

Wow im glad I took AP Stats this year, I can actually understand the spreadsheet this time :P
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#10 Millertime

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Posted 25 January 2011 - 08:49 AM

Sorry Danny - I think you guessed 120 in the contest. :) I think you were closest - but Price Is Right rules declare that you have to be closest w/o going over. :)


Actually I think there was a guy that bid 1.

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#11 motoguy1251

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Posted 25 January 2011 - 09:05 AM

I was a bit surprised that there was virtually no wear on the cupseal. Cant wait for the NT numbers to see if they reflect the g6r.
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#12 LieutenantDan

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Posted 25 January 2011 - 10:18 AM

I had a feeling that "break in period" was complete bull...
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#13 brycelarson

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Posted 25 January 2011 - 10:53 AM

Actually I think there was a guy that bid 1.


I think there was a 22.

I had a feeling that "break in period" was complete bull...


well, it's not complete bull. there was significant improvement over the first 90-ish shots.

#14 danath 34

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Posted 25 January 2011 - 11:02 AM

so we are seeing a *relatively* steady drop in SD over the first 500 shots. The gun seems to be breaking in over the first 500 shots. Now if I am reading this correctly, the SD values for the next 10 cases are kind of all over the place (seems semi random) so I would say it is well broken in within the first case. However, when you rebuild the ram, there is a noticeable drop in SD again, indicating that the best consistency is with fresh ram orings.

So what exactly is 'breaking in' in the first 500 shots? because as we can see from the ram rebuild data, the ram orings being fresh actually increases consistency. Is it the reg orings maybe? Reg seat?

I did have one question, though. What happened at shot #346? It appears as if something was changed causing a few low chrony shots and higher SD values. However, this could be caused by paint size variation. Also what was shot #347? Was it a low shot? Is that why it was left blank?


Great data guys! Interesting stuff...
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#15 cockerpunk

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Posted 25 January 2011 - 12:22 PM

an interesting thing i would like to note is that the before and after cleaning shots seem to be at random. meaning, sometimes cleaning the gun made it better, sometimes a bit worse.
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#16 brycelarson

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Posted 25 January 2011 - 01:06 PM

I did have one question, though. What happened at shot #346? It appears as if something was changed causing a few low chrony shots and higher SD values. However, this could be caused by paint size variation. Also what was shot #347? Was it a low shot? Is that why it was left blank?


the blanks are when we missed a chrono reading. Usually it's when the second eye on the chrono didn't see the ball. It happens sometimes. shots 61, 85, 320, 347 etc.

I kinda see what you're saying about 346 - but actually it's only 3 lower than 345. All guns have odd shots from time to time. This one is no different. I wouldn't try to read too much into any one shot - it's the means and SD data from groups of shots that really starts to have meaning.

#17 iceman6

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Posted 25 January 2011 - 03:22 PM

Wonder how this will correlate to a spooly? or any other gun for that matter. Is the G6R just a break in freak of nature because finished tolerances from BL are that good? hrmm we may be able to put a tighter ball park on "break in" times with all markers. I always thought the whole 10 cases thing was a little out there...

#18 cockerpunk

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Posted 25 January 2011 - 03:51 PM

Wonder how this will correlate to a spooly? or any other gun for that matter. Is the G6R just a break in freak of nature because finished tolerances from BL are that good? hrmm we may be able to put a tighter ball park on "break in" times with all markers. I always thought the whole 10 cases thing was a little out there...


we will be testing a brand new NT11 as well.
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#19 The_Economist

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Posted 25 January 2011 - 04:11 PM

Yaaay, the 10-case-break-in myth is busted!

This is gonna put some folks on MCB into a tizzy - but they will probably discount your methods and stick their heads back into the sand anyways.

My bet is that a spool valve gun with have similar results and that break-in is extremely rapid on all types of modern guns.



#20 IhasAcellular

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Posted 25 January 2011 - 04:26 PM

Naw, MCB will just say it takes 30 cases to break in a gun.

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#21 brycelarson

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Posted 25 January 2011 - 04:32 PM

Naw, MCB will just say it takes 30 cases to break in a gun.


We do expect that argument. Not necessarily from MCB. It's quite reasonable really. I don't know that a good argument can be made for that break in leading to significan performance change, but I can see the reasoning behind the argument.

#22 Proxydust

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Posted 25 January 2011 - 04:38 PM

I actually think that the spool valve will have a larger break in...... they have a TON of orings....... i could be totally wrong


also..... you could do a double blind test with this


get 2 G6Rs with the same amount of shots...tell a person its a BNIB G6R and then give them the other and say it has like 50k shots and see which one they think is smoother

Edited by Proxydust, 25 January 2011 - 04:40 PM.



#23 danath 34

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Posted 25 January 2011 - 07:01 PM


I did have one question, though. What happened at shot #346? It appears as if something was changed causing a few low chrony shots and higher SD values. However, this could be caused by paint size variation. Also what was shot #347? Was it a low shot? Is that why it was left blank?


the blanks are when we missed a chrono reading. Usually it's when the second eye on the chrono didn't see the ball. It happens sometimes. shots 61, 85, 320, 347 etc.

I kinda see what you're saying about 346 - but actually it's only 3 lower than 345. All guns have odd shots from time to time. This one is no different. I wouldn't try to read too much into any one shot - it's the means and SD data from groups of shots that really starts to have meaning.



yeah I was trying to get an idea of why the SD seemed to jump higher at that shot. But I can imagine the occasional oddball shots would do that sort of thing to a rolling SD.

Also thinking about the comment cockerpunk made about how sometimes cleaning the gun made it better, sometimes worse... I probably just missed it somewhere, but what was the method/schedule for cleaning the gun? Did you do it every x shots, or did you do it when you noticed consistency issues, etc? Because one test that would be interesting to do would be to test how often you really do have to break down and clean the gun. This is a widely debated topic. Some people clean their gun after every day of play religiously, some people do it once a year. I would be interested to see an experiment testing this. Maybe split it up into a couple/few tests. You could do one test for the reg(s), one test for easy to get to internals (such as the ram) and another test for the less easy to reach internals (such as valves). But this is likely a topic for a whole 'nother thread...
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#24 brycelarson

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Posted 25 January 2011 - 09:59 PM

cleaning schedule was based on what was suggested in the manual. we did a clean of the bolt and upper tube every case before chrono. We cleaned and lubed the ram and oiled the bolt o-rings every three cases. We rebuilt the ram after 10 cases. There was no wear showing - but we wanted to see what would happen to the performance after putting new o-rings in.

#25 betasniper

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Posted 26 January 2011 - 12:27 AM

Have you tried quad rings on the ram? Or would you consider that a waste of time?
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#26 brycelarson

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Posted 26 January 2011 - 08:14 AM

Have you tried quad rings on the ram? Or would you consider that a waste of time?


we weren't really trying to do anything to the gun to gain performance. This was a test around break-in. We intentionally didn't change a thing. Just pulled it out of the box, aired it up and started shooting over the chrono.

I would certainly be interested to see if they have an effect on anything - but that's more a test for tinkering with a gun to see if you can improve performance.

#27 RIP-Buttercup

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Posted 26 January 2011 - 08:49 AM

Towards the end of the video you mention adjusting if it gets way out of range. Did this occur? Looking at case 6 data shows a slight fps increase right before cleaning. Could you go into what parts you cleaned/replaced.

Like the efficiency, question the consistency of the G6R, or was this your paint?
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#28 brycelarson

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Posted 26 January 2011 - 09:05 AM

Towards the end of the video you mention adjusting if it gets way out of range. Did this occur? Looking at case 6 data shows a slight fps increase right before cleaning. Could you go into what parts you cleaned/replaced.

Like the efficiency, question the consistency of the G6R, or was this your paint?


we didn't have to adjust. We were going to let the gun do what it was going to do - unless it got WAY out of range - like >350 <220.

There's always going to be a "noise floor" from paint. Variations in the 10-14 range for SDs of samples isn't all that odd. In this case we were shooting basically a paint-to-bore match with good but not great paint. I think moving to an under or overbore with excellent paint would tighten that range up significantly. Again, we're trying to test in a very real world situation - not trying to squeeze performance out of the gun. This paint was paint that I would gladly shoot.

#29 Schuppert3

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Posted 28 January 2011 - 09:30 PM

So you think its varies with different guns at all? I mean guns with different design's could have different results?

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#30 brycelarson

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Posted 30 January 2011 - 04:19 PM

So you think its varies with different guns at all? I mean guns with different design's could have different results?


we're doing the NT11 next. We think that if there is a difference in guns we should see it when looking at poppet v spool. The number of dynamic o-rings is quite different.

#31 IhasAcellular

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Posted 31 January 2011 - 02:22 AM


So you think its varies with different guns at all? I mean guns with different design's could have different results?


we're doing the NT11 next. We think that if there is a difference in guns we should see it when looking at poppet v spool. The number of dynamic o-rings is quite different.

Is it possible that we are looking at the wrong thing? Maby its not the orings that "break in". Any chance that its the springs inside the marker becoming less....springy?

Edited by IhasAcellular, 31 January 2011 - 02:23 AM.

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#32 brycelarson

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Posted 31 January 2011 - 08:54 AM

Is it possible that we are looking at the wrong thing? Maby its not the orings that "break in". Any chance that its the springs inside the marker becoming less....springy?


we're not looking at the parts - we're looking at the performance. In this case a huge majority of any performance change happened in 90-ish shots. We don't know what exactly created this change - but if it's o-rings then it's possible that the spoolie will have a larger change in performance. Don't know till we shoot it.

#33 UV Halo

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Posted 31 January 2011 - 04:45 PM

You guys by chance do not have any pre break-in photos of the internals?

I ask because one of the pics, you can clearly see the line on the oring where the flash (excess material) was. Some orings are better than others and, a before/after comparison would be a good thing to see. For example, maybe there was excess material on the oring that was worn off in the first '90ish' shots.

#34 brycelarson

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Posted 31 January 2011 - 08:06 PM

You guys by chance do not have any pre break-in photos of the internals?

I ask because one of the pics, you can clearly see the line on the oring where the flash (excess material) was. Some orings are better than others and, a before/after comparison would be a good thing to see. For example, maybe there was excess material on the oring that was worn off in the first '90ish' shots.


no we don't have any. I think you might be reading too much into the ones we did post. In person I would say the opposite - the o-rings appear to have no wear.

#35 Doyle

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Posted 21 June 2011 - 03:51 AM

Edit: I found the NT11 thread, the search function had failed me.

http://www.techpb.co...howtopic=133970

There is the link for all those who wanted to compare like me.


Edited by Doyle, 21 June 2011 - 04:03 AM.

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