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G6R LSET efficiency testing - Std Vs SLP


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#1 brycelarson

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Posted 24 January 2011 - 01:20 PM

Hi guys,

I ran the LSET test on the G6R using a Ninja SLP and a standard Ninja reg. The Protege results are coming soon.

Here are the data sheets:

SLP - https://spreadsheets...=en&output=html
Standard Reg - https://spreadsheets...=en&output=html

Here's the video:

Edited by brycelarson, 24 January 2011 - 07:35 PM.


#2 cockerpunk

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Posted 24 January 2011 - 01:21 PM

what output was teh standard reg?
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#3 NDomipolo

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Posted 24 January 2011 - 01:25 PM

pretty cool to see a good comparison,not that big of a difference but it probably adds up once you shoot tons of paint,but not to big of a difference

#4 Danny D

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Posted 24 January 2011 - 01:26 PM

How many replicates did you do for the test? Are the values shown averages? If thats only a single data point for each reg, i dont think you can make any usable conclusions from it.

Interesting test though. Thanks for doing it!

PS> the vid link is absent

Edited by Danny D, 24 January 2011 - 01:31 PM.


#5 Leafy

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Posted 24 January 2011 - 01:50 PM

So looks like real world numbers they come out to be the same? weird.

Also where did the break in thread go, I got the email and then I get a board message with the email link.

#6 brycelarson

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Posted 24 January 2011 - 02:00 PM

I closed the break in thread until I have time to upload the vid. I'll open it back up.

Cocker - Ninja reg measures 780 on the nose.

Danny - think of it this way - there are more than 90 individual events recorded in that number. The sample size is already large. any odd performance will be cancelled out by the large sample size.

I can certainly do it again later but when I've done these tests in the past replication hasn't changed the results. It tends to be a very stable test - assuming the gun is working right and this one is.

#7 IhasAcellular

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Posted 24 January 2011 - 02:06 PM

Wasnt the big deal with the slp reg to be able to shoot "deeper" into the tank, and really shine when the tank was below 1000 psi?

Edited by IhasAcellular, 24 January 2011 - 02:12 PM.

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#8 brycelarson

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Posted 24 January 2011 - 02:15 PM

Wasnt the big deal with the slp reg to be able to shoot "deeper" into the tank, and really shine when the tank was below 1000 psi?



I don't know. From this it looks like there's a slight improvement in the top of the tank - but the bottom is the bottom.

#9 Danny D

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Posted 24 January 2011 - 02:23 PM

Danny - think of it this way - there are more than 90 individual events recorded in that number. The sample size is already large. any odd performance will be cancelled out by the large sample size.

I can certainly do it again later but when I've done these tests in the past replication hasn't changed the results. It tends to be a very stable test - assuming the gun is working right and this one is.



So what your saying is you did the test 90 times (shooting from 2000-1000psi x 90), and the number displayed is the average? If thats the case, well done!!! I dont think you should do any more testing, as thats a tonne, and the numbers displayed should be representative of the actual mean.

#10 brycelarson

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Posted 24 January 2011 - 02:33 PM

So what your saying is you did the test 90 times (shooting from 2000-1000psi x 90), and the number displayed is the average? If thats the case, well done!!! I dont think you should do any more testing, as thats a tonne, and the numbers displayed should be representative of the actual mean.


no, what I'm saying is that in a shot string of 90+ shots you're already accounting for operational glitches in the system. I shot from 2k down to 1k and 1k down to 220 fps once on the standard reg, once on the SLP reg.

In past usage of the LSET unless something isn't working with the gun repetition of the test doesn't result in much variation. If a few of the shots use more gas - then it's likely that a few will use less. In something like this where we're counting a large-ish sample size the overall results tend to be quite accurate.

#11 Danny D

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Posted 24 January 2011 - 02:52 PM

Your sample size is 1 for each of the 4 treatments. If it were any more than 1 you would be able to measure variance, which you cannot. If you would like more clarity in your data, id suggest running the test a couple times. Especially since your using a 13ci tank. I believe the LSET was designed for larger tanks (68ci) and would allow for more balls to be shot per treatment.

13 ci is a great shortcut, I would do the same, but id just suggest repeating the test a few times to make sure there isnt any variation. This would give you a larger "sample size" or replicates as they are called and would allow you to be more confident in any conclusion you make. I know you guys spend a lot of time on these tests but i think it would be the best option to complete the test.

Edited by Danny D, 24 January 2011 - 02:56 PM.


#12 brycelarson

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Posted 24 January 2011 - 02:59 PM

Your sample size is 1 for each of the 4 treatments. If it were any more than 1 you would be able to measure variance, which you cannot. If you would like more clarity in your data, id suggest running the test a couple times. Especially since your using a 13ci tank. I believe the LSET was designed for larger tanks (68ci) and would allow for more balls to be shot per treatment.

13 ci is a great shortcut, I would do the same, but id just suggest repeating the test a few times to make sure there isnt any variation. This would give you a larger "sample size" or replicates as they are called and would allow you to be more confident in any conclusion you make. I know you guys spend a lot of time on these things but i think it would be the best option to complete the test.


actually, no the LSET (Larson Standard Efficieny Test (as in Bryce Larson :) )) works great on a 13ci tank. It gives numbers large enough to see variation when you make adjustments etc - but small enough to make it handy.

I'll pick up some more paint and when I do the tests on the Protege for reference I'll chuck some more paint through the G6R.

And yes, in the past I have done it a multiple times on the same gun. There just isn't variation. Any gun that's getting good consistency (which this G6R was) will produce very similar numbers repetition after repetition.

#13 Danny D

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Posted 24 January 2011 - 03:01 PM

Thanks bryce Posted Image

#14 LieutenantDan

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Posted 24 January 2011 - 05:55 PM

zomg! that's amazing! getting slp reg now :dodgy:

it's an improvement but it's so efficient anyway, 50 bucks?
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#15 lovebunny

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Posted 24 January 2011 - 05:55 PM

wont the slp shoot deaper in to the tank? then the std reg?
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#16 brycelarson

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Posted 24 January 2011 - 06:17 PM

wont the slp shoot deaper in to the tank? then the std reg?


didn't seem to. both regs choked the gun below 220 fps at 125-150 psi in the tank.

#17 MIBaller

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Posted 24 January 2011 - 06:19 PM

Can anyone straight explain why the G6R get better effcieny on SLP the standard HP.


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#18 shutts67

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Posted 24 January 2011 - 06:52 PM

Magic. Ninja and BL both said that they couldn't explain it, but it happened, I believe.

#19 Danny D

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Posted 24 January 2011 - 07:09 PM

Im guessing its shoot down. The lower output one might experience more shootdown at higher rof than the higher output reg. Thats probably why it seems more "efficient" according to bob + ninja.

Just my theory. Feel free to tear it apart.

Edited by Danny D, 24 January 2011 - 08:07 PM.


#20 brycelarson

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Posted 24 January 2011 - 07:35 PM

Im guessing its shoot down. The lower output one might experience more shootdown at higher rof than the higher output reg. Thats probably why it seems more "efficient".

Just my theory. Feel free to tear it apart.



just posted the video - the way we do the LSET there's no shootdown. It's possible that the SLP chokes the gun in high ROF situations giving it artificially inflated efficiency - but check the video for how we do these.

The SLP on the G6R shows a theoretical 2300-ish shots from a 68/45.

#21 Danny D

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Posted 24 January 2011 - 08:07 PM

Lol, i know bryce, my theory is why ninja and bob long got more efficiency from it.

Edited by Danny D, 24 January 2011 - 08:08 PM.


#22 brycelarson

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Posted 24 January 2011 - 08:18 PM

Lol, i know bryce, my theory is why ninja and bob long got more efficiency from it.


but our test does confirm the insane efficiency. You can use pretty simple algebra to extrapolate our results to a larger tank.

The SLP on the G6R got 7.85 shots per inch^3 per 1000 psi above 1000. It also got 7.3 shots per inch^3 for the last 1000 psi in the tank.

so if P = starting pressure and I = inches^3 of the tank we're looking at:

(P-1000)(7.85*I) + (7.3*I) = shots per tank.

If you insert a 68/45 with a full 4500 fill you get

(4.5-1)(7.85*68)+(7.3*68) = 3.5*533.8+496.4 = 2364.7 shots per tank. That's F'n impressive.

Based on previous application of the LSET on the 2k-1k portion we had a cyborg get 90 an emag get 72, an Ion get 56 and a 2k cocker get 87. None of those guns touch this guy on the full tank stuff - and the G6R looks like it'll shoot ALL the way down into a tank.

#23 Lord Odin

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Posted 24 January 2011 - 08:25 PM

Very cool test, guys. I really like the term you associated with it: LSET. I was thinking of doing this exact same thing for a little while now for some part's testing. Great idea using the smaller tank.

#24 MIBaller

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Posted 24 January 2011 - 08:32 PM

the only thing i can think of is the gun allows too much air through a vent at higher pressures.
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#25 lovebunny

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Posted 24 January 2011 - 08:55 PM

the g6r with an slp reg seams to be the perfekt gun for me sins im almost always filling from scuba tanks..

and shooting the tank almost eampty is just bad ass!
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#26 Danny D

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Posted 24 January 2011 - 08:59 PM

but our test does confirm the insane efficiency. You can use pretty simple algebra to extrapolate our results to a larger tank.

The SLP on the G6R got 7.85 shots per inch^3 per 1000 psi above 1000. It also got 7.3 shots per inch^3 for the last 1000 psi in the tank.

so if P = starting pressure and I = inches^3 of the tank we're looking at:

(P-1000)(7.85*I) + (7.3*I) = shots per tank.

If you insert a 68/45 with a full 4500 fill you get

(4.5-1)(7.85*68)+(7.3*68) = 3.5*533.8+496.4 = 2364.7 shots per tank. That's F'n impressive.

Based on previous application of the LSET on the 2k-1k portion we had a cyborg get 90 an emag get 72, an Ion get 56 and a 2k cocker get 87. None of those guns touch this guy on the full tank stuff - and the G6R looks like it'll shoot ALL the way down into a tank.



No doubt thats impressive, but i believe he was getting around 2800 shots, or 21.5 pods if i remember correctly. I was just pointing to the fact that he attributed this to the slp reg, and my theory is that it got to that figure due to shootdown. And your post seems to supports that also.

#27 brycelarson

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Posted 24 January 2011 - 09:02 PM

No doubt thats impressive, but i believe he was getting around 2800 shots, or 21.5 pods if i remember correctly. I was just pointing to the fact that he attributed this to the slp reg, and my theory is that it got to that figure due to shootdown. And your post seems to supports that also.


yeah, certainly - the extra 500 shots could certainly be from choking the gun. that makes great sense.

Anyone have the actual count Bob posted in that video?

#28 IhasAcellular

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Posted 24 January 2011 - 09:10 PM

Bob says 20.5 pods, I dont really care to go through and count every shot :P

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#29 brycelarson

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Posted 24 January 2011 - 09:13 PM

Bob says 20.5 pods, I dont really care to go through and count every shot :P


wasn't there a conversation about the size of the pods? 20.5 @ 140 is way different than 20.5 @ 110. Either is still impressive though. if the pod size is a bit lower it may indicate that there's less shoot down. If they're full 140 pods then my guess would be that the gun is air starved.

#30 IhasAcellular

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Posted 24 January 2011 - 09:17 PM


Bob says 20.5 pods, I dont really care to go through and count every shot :P


wasn't there a conversation about the size of the pods? 20.5 @ 140 is way different than 20.5 @ 110. Either is still impressive though. if the pod size is a bit lower it may indicate that there's less shoot down. If they're full 140 pods then my guess would be that the gun is air starved.

He's also shooting at quite a high ROF. So its possible.

You also have different conditions. His test was done in California, with Valken paint, which may have been a bit larger of a bore size.

Edited by IhasAcellular, 24 January 2011 - 09:20 PM.

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#31 brycelarson

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Posted 24 January 2011 - 09:20 PM

He's also shooting at quite a high ROF. So its possible.

You also have different conditions. His test was done in California, with Valken paint, which may have been a bit larger of a bore size.


True. The QC sheet that came with the gun showed 280s / 290s - but when we got it it was shooting 250-ish with our .684/.685 paint. So yeah, I'm sure their paint was chubby. You should be able to get an extra 10-15 fps by underboring more - and the stock barrel is .685 so big paint would do it.

#32 bigschank

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Posted 24 January 2011 - 09:21 PM

any idea how soon the protege results will post?

#33 brycelarson

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Posted 24 January 2011 - 09:23 PM

any idea how soon the protege results will post?


I have a partial but need to get more paint. It's surprising how quickly you can chew through the paint doing these. It's basically a bag per gun - two regs each, two tests plus chrono paint. the Protege got 88 shots from 2k to 1k on 1000 psi on the SLP.

#34 squire

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Posted 24 January 2011 - 09:49 PM

So between the SLP and the Standard regulator are you getting about roughly 6% more total shots when using the SLP?

#35 IhasAcellular

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Posted 24 January 2011 - 09:53 PM

Roughly 93 more shots with a 68/45 tank.

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#36 Lord Odin

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Posted 24 January 2011 - 10:37 PM

Bryce, is your chrono capable of recording high rof? It would be nice to confirm the choking/shootdown theory by shooting at higher ROF and get velocities for each individual shot.

#37 Schuppert3

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Posted 24 January 2011 - 10:51 PM

I believe bjorn also said their are air passages waiting to blow when you don't use the SLP. So yeah ninja and bob long said you will get better efficiency but their is still more purpose in it according the Bjorn (Blast Tech).

Still that's some pretty awesome numbers but i think if i got a g6r i would still get the SLP just to have the extra couple hundred shots or so. I mean if your gonna buy that gun you might as well go all out?

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#38 RIP-Buttercup

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Posted 24 January 2011 - 11:17 PM

So predicted G6R with SLP 4500/68= 2365 shots 4500/45=1565 shots
and predicted G6R With STD 4500/68= 2291 shots 4500/45=1516 shots
So for the 4500/68 SLP= 74 more shots and for the 4500/45 = 49 more shots

It does not seem worth it to get a SLP tank unless you need a new tank anyway, at least with this data. Difference will be smaller as tank size decreases. Would like to know what Bob was doing to hit 2500+. Even still, this gun makes my borg look like an air hog.

Thanks for the data.

Edited by RIP-Buttercup, 24 January 2011 - 11:19 PM.

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#39 Spider200081

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Posted 25 January 2011 - 12:02 AM

So predicted G6R with SLP 4500/68= 2365 shots 4500/45=1565 shots
and predicted G6R With STD 4500/68= 2291 shots 4500/45=1516 shots
So for the 4500/68 SLP= 74 more shots and for the 4500/45 = 49 more shots

It does not seem worth it to get a SLP tank unless you need a new tank anyway, at least with this data. Difference will be smaller as tank size decreases. Would like to know what Bob was doing to hit 2500+. Even still, this gun makes my borg look like an air hog.

Thanks for the data.



I agree with this statement. I am thinking though that if you have the G6R and say an Ego and are looking for a new tank to look at the slp. I believe it does work fine for duel reg markers such as ego, dm ect correct?

#40 IhasAcellular

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Posted 25 January 2011 - 02:44 PM

Would like to know what Bob was doing to hit 2500+. Even still, this gun makes my borg look like an air hog.

Thanks for the data.


I figured out the reason.....we forgot he was using a 70 ci tank and not a 68.


(70*7.846)*4.5=2471.49 shots the extra 30 or so can be attributed to paint to bore match.

120 balls per pod in bobs video.

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#41 cockerpunk

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Posted 25 January 2011 - 03:05 PM

IIRC bob didn't get 2500+ out of a 68/45. someone goldwaved it and counted that the pods measured like 110 rnds each, which comes out stunningly close to the LSET test (surpized even myself with that one). within a pod anyway ...

also, assuming 100% effienecy, a 68/45 tank only has about 2600-2700 rounds in it, so we are quickly approaching this level of performance.

i also agree with DannyD, its got to be shoot down.
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#42 Leafy

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Posted 25 January 2011 - 03:10 PM

also, assuming 100% effienecy, a 68/45 tank only has about 2600-2700 rounds in it, so we are quickly approaching this level of performance.


No kidding. It really is too bad that we lost that thread where I did all the math out and determined that the protege was operating at ~80% efficiency. Its really amazing, paintball is rally they only time where I've ever seen something actually even think of approaching 100% thermodynamic efficiency.

#43 IhasAcellular

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Posted 25 January 2011 - 03:25 PM

IIRC bob didn't get 2500+ out of a 68/45. someone goldwaved it and counted that the pods measured like 110 rnds each, which comes out stunningly close to the LSET test (surpized even myself with that one). within a pod anyway ...

also, assuming 100% effienecy, a 68/45 tank only has about 2600-2700 rounds in it, so we are quickly approaching this level of performance.

i also agree with DannyD, its got to be shoot down.

I believe it was a 70/45 tank. The numbers seem to add up nearly perfectly (if I actually did the math correctly..haha)

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#44 brycelarson

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Posted 25 January 2011 - 03:30 PM

if those numbers are correct on Bob's video then I think we can pretty reasonably say that it's not choking. Or at least it's not gaining any efficiency through choking the gun.

#45 cockerpunk

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Posted 25 January 2011 - 03:51 PM


...
also, assuming 100% effienecy, a 68/45 tank only has about 2600-2700 rounds in it, so we are quickly approaching this level of performance.
...


Assuming what ball weight and velocity?

yes, that would be correct


also, assuming 100% effienecy, a 68/45 tank only has about 2600-2700 rounds in it, so we are quickly approaching this level of performance.


No kidding. It really is too bad that we lost that thread where I did all the math out and determined that the protege was operating at ~80% efficiency. Its really amazing, paintball is rally they only time where I've ever seen something actually even think of approaching 100% thermodynamic efficiency.


well, if your thinking cycle effienecy, then you need to include all the losses in the compressor and filling and all that crap.

we are basically just talking about the expansion process in the gun, which is pretty reasonable to have high effienecy.
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#46 Leafy

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Posted 25 January 2011 - 03:54 PM



also, assuming 100% effienecy, a 68/45 tank only has about 2600-2700 rounds in it, so we are quickly approaching this level of performance.


No kidding. It really is too bad that we lost that thread where I did all the math out and determined that the protege was operating at ~80% efficiency. Its really amazing, paintball is rally they only time where I've ever seen something actually even think of approaching 100% thermodynamic efficiency.


well, if your thinking cycle effienecy, then you need to include all the losses in the compressor and filling and all that crap.

we are basically just talking about the expansion process in the gun, which is pretty reasonable to have high effienecy.


But really how many systems do you know that even have expansion efficiency that high? Steam/super critical turbines certainly dont.

#47 brycelarson

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Posted 25 January 2011 - 05:03 PM

One thing to consider though. If the gun shot nothing but 2.9g paint @ 250FPS for Punkwork's test and someone else ran this test with 3.2g paint at 300fps, they would only get 62% as many shots. [b]


The form indicates a chrono speed of 280. Since the velocity is the ^2 part of the equation controlling velocity makes a larger difference than controlling mass.

That said, I do think that including a mass per ball field on the form would be a good idea. We've got brand and size.

This test is not designed to test two guns against each other unless they're shooting the same paint out of the same barre at the same velocity. There's simply no way to control enough variables to create a universal efficiency test.

#48 cockerpunk

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Posted 25 January 2011 - 08:48 PM


...
yes, that would be correct


To expand on that...

Max theoretical shot count :
3.2g @ 300fps = 2584 shots (91.5% efficient)

3.0g @ 300fps = 2756 shots (85.8% efficient)

2.9g @ 275fps = 3393 shots (typical weight and velocity, 69.7% efficient)

2.9g @ 250fps = 4105 shots (57.6% efficient)

Showing my work -
Energy in a 68ci tank @ 4500psi is pressure times volume
31.03MPa * 0.001114m^3 = 34567.42J

Energy of each 3.2g paintball at 300fps is half of mass times velocity squared
0.5 * 0.0032Kg * (91.44m/s)^2 = 13.378J

Assuming a 3.0g ball at 300fps
0.5 * 0.003Kg * (91.44m/s)^2 = 12.54J

Assuming a 2.9g ball at 275fps
0.5 * 0.0029Kg * (83.82m/s)^2 = 10.187J

Assuming a 2.9g ball at 250fps
0.5 * 0.003Kg * (76.2m/s)^2 = 8.42J


69ish percent efficient isn't that bad.

One thing to consider though. If the gun shot nothing but 2.9g paint @ 250FPS for Punkwork's test and someone else ran this test with 3.2g paint at 300fps, they would only get 62% as many shots.

1466 vs. 2365

Is that a significant margin of error for this test?


of course, thats why you dont switch paints and chrono speeds between tests.

if you use the same ball weight and velocity, the comparison of those two samples will still hold true. this isn't an absolute test, its a comparative test. the comparative results will be valid despite the sample bias both are suspected of.

Edited by cockerpunk, 25 January 2011 - 08:52 PM.

The ultimate truth in paintball is that the interaction between the gun and the player is far and away the largest factor in accuracy, consistency, and reliability.

And yes, Gordon is the sexiest manifestation of "to the front."


#49 MIBaller

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Posted 25 January 2011 - 09:00 PM

Can some one please explain to my why the SLP makes such a difference on the G6R to me it doesnt make much sence as the air from the tank goes through an HPR to lower the pressure maybe some one who is smarter than I am can explain exactly why?
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#50 IhasAcellular

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Posted 25 January 2011 - 09:45 PM

From what i've heard....nobody knows...that includes Bob Long, and Ninja...

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