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#151 Lord Odin

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Posted 03 February 2009 - 09:38 AM

the problem with date stamping paint is that then the paint manufacturer would have to admit that paint has a shelf life - AND, like perishable items they would have to price their product accordingly - meaning raise prices to account for lost product.

Stores that sell little to no paint, you know - the big box sporting goods stores - wouldn't stock any paint because they would then have to have a stock-person check that paint and pull it when it expired.

If they keep the same distribution system as they currently have then the date stamp isn't any good anyway - sure you know that the paint is a year old, but unless the store sells lots of paint - all of the paint on the shelves will be.

The easiest way to get good paint is to buy it from a reasonably busy place - a place that sells a lot of paint. A field or pro-shop.

The store doesn't have to pull the product because of its age. This isn't like food where someone could get really sick from using it. If it gets old, it just won't shoot as well. Also, a born on date isn't like an expiration date. It only says when it was made; not if and when it goes bad. To Joe Blow walking in and picking up a box, he's not gonna know what is old and what is new. He probably doesn't even care. As of right now, there is no consensus on a cutoff period for aged paint anyway. For example, to some, 6-8 months is acceptable while others only want 3 months or less. It just depends on who's buying it. Paint bought at stores like Walmart are expected to be crappy but we get them because they're cheap and available. They don't take care of the paint now and I don't see them worrying about it later either. Besides, I don't think the big box stores are going to care enough to rotate or remove boxes unless they haven't sold in months. If we want the good stuff, usually we'll go to our PB store, field, or PB online vendor.

#152 Merc4Hire

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Posted 03 February 2009 - 01:37 PM

Bryce. I know all of that. I do buy from good shops when I am near them. But how things are now isn't necessarily how they always will be.

Paintball is growing. The more mainstream things get, the more normal store chains will pay attention to paintball customers. There was probably a point in time that you had to special order a basketball or make your own. Now you can get the hateful things everywhere in varying degrees of quality.

The same problem applies to online vendors. They are gonna sell me their oldest nastiest crap too. Things could start with paintball stores and online vendors making a guarantee about the storage and age of the paint they sell. If they asked the manufacturers to get a rubber hand stamp and date stamp the paint as they throw it on the pallet, I bet they would.

The other thing is it would be easy to sell a premium line of paint through high volume sellers like online stores and busy big city fields, that would be time stamped. Just like hair salons have salon only shampoos and stuff. I know nelson made a deal with some field, I think near chicago, to make a mid low grade paint brand that would only be sold as field paint to only that place. The name used to be one of their main products. Then they made the special contract with just one busy field. I think itwas nel-spot or nel-splat or something like that. They should have named it nel-bounce.

Edited by Merc4Hire, 03 February 2009 - 01:46 PM.



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#153 Merc4Hire

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Posted 03 February 2009 - 01:52 PM

The other thing is that it hurts future sales to sell crappy paint. Kids go and play with walmart paint which is fairly expensive compared to good paint by the case at a paintball shop. They shoot each other for a year or so in the trees behind their freind's house, and they get fed up, and switch to cheaper airsoft. It cost's about $0 to play and you never buy a bulk pack of bbs and open up a bag of goo when you get home. Alot of these players, who represent a big chunk of the sport, never see anything better than that.


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#154 brycelarson

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Posted 03 February 2009 - 02:54 PM

Paintball is growing. The more mainstream things get, the more normal store chains will pay attention to paintball customers. There was probably a point in time that you had to special order a basketball or make your own. Now you can get the hateful things everywhere in varying degrees of quality.


Painball's actually shrinking. Paint prices have dropped - so margins have gotten thinner.

I agree, it would be nice to know how old paint is.

#155 Spitlebug

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Posted 03 February 2009 - 03:29 PM

Here's my take on this whole issue:

Firstly, I think it went without saying that paint manufacturer's don't date paint because they know thier product is perishable. The Zap paint and JT paint that I have in my posession for a year may actually be two years old and that's what disturbs me the most.

Secondly, it's easy enough to say to someone "Just go buy paint from somewhere that sells a lot". This however isn't always an option. The closest place to me that sells any quantity of paint is an hour and a half drive away. Walmart and Canadian Tire on the other hand are close at hand. This poses a little bit of a problem wouldn't you say?

Thirdly, rural areas are where paintball is actually growing. Back yard fields, scenario games, private fields and the like. Despite what the Industry might like to think, paintball fields (particularly outdoor) tend to be in more rural areas for many reasons. Things like property taxes, noise, land price and the general seasonal nature of the game all contribute to this.

So what do you do? Buy paint online - sight unseen? Would you trust a courier company to handle a case or two of paintballs without breaking any? Do you get a refund for broken paint? What about lost games because of broken paint?

Too many questions, not enough answers.

As to the idea that paintball is shrinking - that is an outright lie. Paintball is growing, just not in the way we might expect. Many of the companies don't see it though because they have thier head in the Tourney gutter, which is what has essentially caused a large downturn in the sport. Now we have companies like Smart Parts, Kingman and a few others attempting to cater to that growth by coming out with markers that look tactical and shit like that. What a waste of time. I cannot blame the companies for trying to keep afloat any way they can but it all seems so moot.

Markers like the SP-1, SP-8, MR1, MR, Tac-5 Recon and all the other wannabe tactical and scenario markers have done nothing but saturate the market place and now the companies are starving again. People trash Tippmann markers because they are long, ugly or whatever. To tell you the truth I would rather go pickup a 98Custom (no ACT) with a Revvy and traipse around the woods than play with any of the newer generation of markers. I think my reasons for this are very obvious.

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#156 cockerpunk

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Posted 03 February 2009 - 04:58 PM

well, we are not trying to solve the problems the paintball industry has in this thread.

ill talk to joey probably tomorrow or thursday and let you guys know what she says. shes pretty in tune with it all, so well see.
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#157 Spitlebug

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Posted 03 February 2009 - 08:27 PM

well, we are not trying to solve the problems the paintball industry has in this thread.

ill talk to joey probably tomorrow or thursday and let you guys know what she says. shes pretty in tune with it all, so well see.


You're right we aren't but if the industry doesn't do something and I mean damn near *anything* new, they are going to go tits up. Consider adding production dates a novelty that no other paint manufacturer does. Patent it and charge some royalties. If the paint quality is good and the price is good people will use it.

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#158 Leftystrikesback

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Posted 03 February 2009 - 09:55 PM

Chemically what would you attribute to the increased hardness of an aged shell? Would it be a loss of moisture or a hardening of the fill within the paintball itself? Covalently stronger bond?


Are you asking about increasing hardness or increasing strength? I haven't seen any evidence to say hardness increased, that's a whole different test.

So in terms of the strength, I want to say that the shell is taking on MORE water as time goes on to make them stronger. This also corresponds to the ball deflecting more before failure, which is also a trend in the aged paint (if anything that makes them softer :) ).

The water could be coming out of the air or out of the fill. I think the fill is the more likely culprit, and I say that because the paint aged in a humid environment wasn't much different from any of the other aged paint samples. Unfortunately I don't know much about the fill, someone else posting in here seemed to know more so they might be able to comment on it's ability to lose water. I know from sticking a paintball in the microwave that lots of water boiled off so it isn't too stuck in the fill.
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#159 Spitlebug

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Posted 03 February 2009 - 10:53 PM

Chemically what would you attribute to the increased hardness of an aged shell? Would it be a loss of moisture or a hardening of the fill within the paintball itself? Covalently stronger bond?


Are you asking about increasing hardness or increasing strength? I haven't seen any evidence to say hardness increased, that's a whole different test.

So in terms of the strength, I want to say that the shell is taking on MORE water as time goes on to make them stronger. This also corresponds to the ball deflecting more before failure, which is also a trend in the aged paint (if anything that makes them softer :) ).

The water could be coming out of the air or out of the fill. I think the fill is the more likely culprit, and I say that because the paint aged in a humid environment wasn't much different from any of the other aged paint samples. Unfortunately I don't know much about the fill, someone else posting in here seemed to know more so they might be able to comment on it's ability to lose water. I know from sticking a paintball in the microwave that lots of water boiled off so it isn't too stuck in the fill.


Strength -> Tensile Properties. Not a Rockwell Hardness type test. I should have been a little more choosy with my nomenclature.

As far as water coming out of a paintball when microwaved, that would be entirely natural. The fill majority is water, dye and sometimes wax (parrafin?). It is clear to me that liquid can seep over time from the paint shell as can be seen with "sweating" paintballs. So naturally if you excite the water molecules within the paintball itself some will come out. The heat that the excited molecules will create could make the matrices of the polymer shell form gaps where water could easily escape.

Edited by Spitlebug, 03 February 2009 - 10:53 PM.

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#160 Lord Odin

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Posted 03 February 2009 - 10:55 PM

Chemically what would you attribute to the increased hardness of an aged shell? Would it be a loss of moisture or a hardening of the fill within the paintball itself? Covalently stronger bond?


Are you asking about increasing hardness or increasing strength? I haven't seen any evidence to say hardness increased, that's a whole different test.

So in terms of the strength, I want to say that the shell is taking on MORE water as time goes on to make them stronger. This also corresponds to the ball deflecting more before failure, which is also a trend in the aged paint (if anything that makes them softer :) ).

The water could be coming out of the air or out of the fill. I think the fill is the more likely culprit, and I say that because the paint aged in a humid environment wasn't much different from any of the other aged paint samples. Unfortunately I don't know much about the fill, someone else posting in here seemed to know more so they might be able to comment on it's ability to lose water. I know from sticking a paintball in the microwave that lots of water boiled off so it isn't too stuck in the fill.


Strength -> Tensile Properties. Not a Rockwell Hardness type test. I should have been a little more choosy with my nomenclature.

As far as water coming out of a paintball when microwaved, that would be entirely natural. The fill majority is water, dye and sometimes wax (parrafin?). It is clear to me that liquid can seep over time from the paint shell as can be seen with "sweating" paintballs. So naturally if you excite the water molecules within the paintball itself some will come out. The heat that the excited molecules will create could make the matrices of the polymer shell form gaps where water could easily escape.

That makes me curious. If paintballs sweat their moisture over [a reasonable amount of] time, then shouldn't the shell be just as soft/hard as when first made? By the sounds of it, they are stronger. What would explain this?

#161 Spitlebug

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Posted 03 February 2009 - 11:05 PM

Chemically what would you attribute to the increased hardness of an aged shell? Would it be a loss of moisture or a hardening of the fill within the paintball itself? Covalently stronger bond?


Are you asking about increasing hardness or increasing strength? I haven't seen any evidence to say hardness increased, that's a whole different test.

So in terms of the strength, I want to say that the shell is taking on MORE water as time goes on to make them stronger. This also corresponds to the ball deflecting more before failure, which is also a trend in the aged paint (if anything that makes them softer :) ).

The water could be coming out of the air or out of the fill. I think the fill is the more likely culprit, and I say that because the paint aged in a humid environment wasn't much different from any of the other aged paint samples. Unfortunately I don't know much about the fill, someone else posting in here seemed to know more so they might be able to comment on it's ability to lose water. I know from sticking a paintball in the microwave that lots of water boiled off so it isn't too stuck in the fill.


Strength -> Tensile Properties. Not a Rockwell Hardness type test. I should have been a little more choosy with my nomenclature.

As far as water coming out of a paintball when microwaved, that would be entirely natural. The fill majority is water, dye and sometimes wax (parrafin?). It is clear to me that liquid can seep over time from the paint shell as can be seen with "sweating" paintballs. So naturally if you excite the water molecules within the paintball itself some will come out. The heat that the excited molecules will create could make the matrices of the polymer shell form gaps where water could easily escape.

That makes me curious. If paintballs sweat their moisture over [a reasonable amount of] time, then shouldn't the shell be just as soft/hard as when first made? By the sounds of it, they are stronger. What would explain this?


Well, when you look at dimpled paint I supposed some of that could have been escaped gases to the atmosphere or water loss. However, I have noticed that when the outer shell of a paintball does get moist it becomes rubbery in texture once dried off. So, assuming paintballs do lose some moisture and the bags they are in are sealed fairly well then it is possible that the exterior coating of the shells (the portion that is air dried) would be the entire reason for the actual brittleness of the paint and that underneath that facia of hard shell is a rubbery like inner shell that actually helps to contain the liquid. This could also mean that if the balls do "sweat" the exterior facia of the shell could become more like the rubbery inner shell.

This is all just hypothesizing though. Hard to say for sure without knowing the exact chemical composition of the paint shell and fill.

Edited by Spitlebug, 03 February 2009 - 11:07 PM.

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#162 cockerpunk

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Posted 03 February 2009 - 11:16 PM

Chemically what would you attribute to the increased hardness of an aged shell? Would it be a loss of moisture or a hardening of the fill within the paintball itself? Covalently stronger bond?


Are you asking about increasing hardness or increasing strength? I haven't seen any evidence to say hardness increased, that's a whole different test.

So in terms of the strength, I want to say that the shell is taking on MORE water as time goes on to make them stronger. This also corresponds to the ball deflecting more before failure, which is also a trend in the aged paint (if anything that makes them softer :) ).

The water could be coming out of the air or out of the fill. I think the fill is the more likely culprit, and I say that because the paint aged in a humid environment wasn't much different from any of the other aged paint samples. Unfortunately I don't know much about the fill, someone else posting in here seemed to know more so they might be able to comment on it's ability to lose water. I know from sticking a paintball in the microwave that lots of water boiled off so it isn't too stuck in the fill.


Strength -> Tensile Properties. Not a Rockwell Hardness type test. I should have been a little more choosy with my nomenclature.

As far as water coming out of a paintball when microwaved, that would be entirely natural. The fill majority is water, dye and sometimes wax (parrafin?). It is clear to me that liquid can seep over time from the paint shell as can be seen with "sweating" paintballs. So naturally if you excite the water molecules within the paintball itself some will come out. The heat that the excited molecules will create could make the matrices of the polymer shell form gaps where water could easily escape.

That makes me curious. If paintballs sweat their moisture over [a reasonable amount of] time, then shouldn't the shell be just as soft/hard as when first made? By the sounds of it, they are stronger. What would explain this?


perhaps the decreased volume inside means that there is less internal pressure. think of a balloon - its alot easier to pop a nearly full one then a half full one - the internal pressure is much less. this would mean under steady state loads it could support alot more. however, impact loading might be different becuase dimples cause stress concentrations.
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#163 Spitlebug

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Posted 03 February 2009 - 11:39 PM

Chemically what would you attribute to the increased hardness of an aged shell? Would it be a loss of moisture or a hardening of the fill within the paintball itself? Covalently stronger bond?


Are you asking about increasing hardness or increasing strength? I haven't seen any evidence to say hardness increased, that's a whole different test.

So in terms of the strength, I want to say that the shell is taking on MORE water as time goes on to make them stronger. This also corresponds to the ball deflecting more before failure, which is also a trend in the aged paint (if anything that makes them softer :) ).

The water could be coming out of the air or out of the fill. I think the fill is the more likely culprit, and I say that because the paint aged in a humid environment wasn't much different from any of the other aged paint samples. Unfortunately I don't know much about the fill, someone else posting in here seemed to know more so they might be able to comment on it's ability to lose water. I know from sticking a paintball in the microwave that lots of water boiled off so it isn't too stuck in the fill.


Strength -> Tensile Properties. Not a Rockwell Hardness type test. I should have been a little more choosy with my nomenclature.

As far as water coming out of a paintball when microwaved, that would be entirely natural. The fill majority is water, dye and sometimes wax (parrafin?). It is clear to me that liquid can seep over time from the paint shell as can be seen with "sweating" paintballs. So naturally if you excite the water molecules within the paintball itself some will come out. The heat that the excited molecules will create could make the matrices of the polymer shell form gaps where water could easily escape.

That makes me curious. If paintballs sweat their moisture over [a reasonable amount of] time, then shouldn't the shell be just as soft/hard as when first made? By the sounds of it, they are stronger. What would explain this?


perhaps the decreased volume inside means that there is less internal pressure. think of a balloon - its alot easier to pop a nearly full one then a half full one - the internal pressure is much less. this would mean under steady state loads it could support alot more. however, impact loading might be different becuase dimples cause stress concentrations.


This is what I was sort of hinting at. If indeed the paintballs are losing some mass and dimples are forming as a natural state change. Moreover, it seems as though dimpled balls have what I would consider a more pliable surface than fresh paint.

I would surmise that if you took fresh paint and dimpled paint and gently moistened the outer shell the result would be the same and that both ball would be more difficult to break.

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#164 Leafy

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Posted 04 February 2009 - 12:08 AM

Sorry if this came up in the last few pages because I started to skim but i have an idea for the ball drop rig to at least try to get the ball to fall on the seam. Depending on how much spin is induced by air resistance this may work very well. Use a very light vacuum (just enough to hold the ball against gravity and hopefully not enough to cause permanent structural damage and deformation) with a cup closest to the size and shape of a paintball.have the release valve as close to the cup and as high flowing as realistically possible so to minimize disturbances on that end. The hardest part will be orientating the ball on the seam when you first put it in the rig. I also suggest dropping onto a concrete floor with a thin (like 3 mil) plastic covering on it.

#165 Leftystrikesback

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Posted 04 February 2009 - 12:13 AM

I wasn't thinking of it as paintballs "sweating" (releasing water to their surroundings) but more like the water transferring from the fill to the shell and the shell holding onto that extra moisture, making it more stronger but more rubbery.

In the sweating case the paint would be losing mass which could be measured with an accurate enough scale over an extended period of time. I believe that once in a while I have seen some condensation on the inside of a bag of old paint.

In the case of the water transferring from fill to shell, the mass would stay the same over time but the shell would be getting stronger and more rubbery at the same time.

If I had an accurate enough scale I would test this to see which is more likely happening (if it's happening at all). Though I could just use a whole bunch of paint and hope that makes up for low precision scale.

Actually, it would make sense that a combination of these two things (and others) is happening since one does not preclude the other from being true.

Edited by Leftystrikesback, 04 February 2009 - 12:17 AM.

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#166 Spitlebug

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Posted 04 February 2009 - 12:21 AM

I wasn't thinking of it as paintballs "sweating" (releasing water to their surroundings) but more like the water transferring from the fill to the shell and the shell holding onto that extra moisture, making it more stronger but more rubbery.

In the sweating case the paint would be losing mass which could be measured with an accurate enough scale over an extended period of time. I believe that once in a while I have seen some condensation on the inside of a bag of old paint.

In the case of the water transferring from fill to shell, the mass would stay the same over time but the shell would be getting stronger and more rubbery at the same time.

If I had an accurate enough scale I would test this to see which is more likely happening (if it's happening at all). Though I could just use a whole bunch of paint and hope that makes up for low precision scale.

Actually, it would make sense that a combination of these two things (and others) is happening.


Interesting enough hypothesis. Here is how I feel is the most accurate way of getting the (mean) weight of a paintball.

1.) Use a container that will allow the paint to be static, but not enough to compress the paint.
2.) Weigh that container ten times and assume that the mean is the tare weight.
3.) Fill said container with a quantitative amount of paint (you will need to count them).
4.) Take a series of ten weights of the paint inside the container. Get the mean weight.
5.) Subtract the tare weight and the total weight to get the quantitative weight of the paintballs.
6.) Divide the weight of the paintballs by the number of paintballs to get the mean weight per ball.

On the flip side you could just assume that your results would be more representative by using more paintballs, or assuming that the loss in mass would be proportional to the number of paintballs within the container.

When I weighed a pod with 100 paintballs in it the tare weight and the filled weight only varied by +/- 1g.

Edited by Spitlebug, 04 February 2009 - 12:23 AM.

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#167 Lord Odin

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Posted 04 February 2009 - 12:22 AM

In the sweating case the paint would be losing mass which could be measured with an accurate enough scale over an extended period of time. I believe that once in a while I have seen some condensation on the inside of a bag of old paint.

I happen to have a ziplock bag of 3 year old paint sitting next to me and there is a lot of condensation on the inside of it. I'd say that it definitely does happen.

#168 Spitlebug

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Posted 04 February 2009 - 12:24 AM

In the sweating case the paint would be losing mass which could be measured with an accurate enough scale over an extended period of time. I believe that once in a while I have seen some condensation on the inside of a bag of old paint.

I happen to have a ziplock bag of 3 year old paint sitting next to me and there is a lot of condensation on the inside of it. I'd say that it definitely does happen.


This is the same for some of the JT paintballs from the test. Two bags had what I would call a considerable amount of condensation or seepage - whichever would be more appropriate.

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#169 Leftystrikesback

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Posted 04 February 2009 - 01:24 AM

I happen to have a ziplock bag of 3 year old paint sitting next to me and there is a lot of condensation on the inside of it. I'd say that it definitely does happen.


Can I ask the obvious question here... why do you have a bag of 3 year old paintballs on your desk?
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#170 Lord Odin

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Posted 04 February 2009 - 01:27 AM

I happen to have a ziplock bag of 3 year old paint sitting next to me and there is a lot of condensation on the inside of it. I'd say that it definitely does happen.


Can I ask the obvious question here... why do you have a bag of 3 year old paintballs on your desk?

I found it late last year in a drawer at my parent's house right next to my first paintball gun, my Automag Classic. Figured what the hell, it might come in useful some day for a test.

#171 Spitlebug

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Posted 04 February 2009 - 01:29 AM

I happen to have a ziplock bag of 3 year old paint sitting next to me and there is a lot of condensation on the inside of it. I'd say that it definitely does happen.


Can I ask the obvious question here... why do you have a bag of 3 year old paintballs on your desk?

I found it late last year in a drawer at my parent's house right next to my first paintball gun, my Automag Classic. Figured what the hell, it might come in useful some day for a test.


You can never have too many paintballs. :lol:

So tempted to suspend Kitty just so I can say I have....
Okay, fuck it....I just banned Kitty, that's going in the sig.

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#172 cockerpunk

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Posted 04 February 2009 - 11:27 AM

I happen to have a ziplock bag of 3 year old paint sitting next to me and there is a lot of condensation on the inside of it. I'd say that it definitely does happen.


Can I ask the obvious question here... why do you have a bag of 3 year old paintballs on your desk?

I found it late last year in a drawer at my parent's house right next to my first paintball gun, my Automag Classic. Figured what the hell, it might come in useful some day for a test.


You can never have too many paintballs. :lol:


thats a lie, i have like 5 to 7 cases of different types of paint at any given time.

i frequently have to throw it away because i have no room to store it, or time to shoot it.

i really just should play semi more ... but thats the dark side.
The ultimate truth in paintball is that the interaction between the gun and the player is far and away the largest factor in accuracy, consistency, and reliability.

And yes, Gordon is the sexiest manifestation of "to the front."


#173 Spitlebug

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Posted 04 February 2009 - 11:48 AM

I happen to have a ziplock bag of 3 year old paint sitting next to me and there is a lot of condensation on the inside of it. I'd say that it definitely does happen.


Can I ask the obvious question here... why do you have a bag of 3 year old paintballs on your desk?

I found it late last year in a drawer at my parent's house right next to my first paintball gun, my Automag Classic. Figured what the hell, it might come in useful some day for a test.


You can never have too many paintballs. :lol:


thats a lie, i have like 5 to 7 cases of different types of paint at any given time.

i frequently have to throw it away because i have no room to store it, or time to shoot it.

i really just should play semi more ... but thats the dark side.


You can always donate some of it to the gleamers at the field. You know, he kids that go to play speedball but only have enough money for a 500 count bag...

So tempted to suspend Kitty just so I can say I have....
Okay, fuck it....I just banned Kitty, that's going in the sig.

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#174 brycelarson

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Posted 04 February 2009 - 12:56 PM

I rarlely leave the field with paint - not becuase I shoot so much, but be causes I donate it to someone who's going to use it.

#175 Spitlebug

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Posted 04 February 2009 - 07:54 PM

So, I checked around today and these are the paint brands I have available to me:

Local:
- All Brass Eagle Paint
- Inferno
- Hellfire
- X-ball
- Rec. Sport

An hour and half drive away:
- XO (unsure of make)
- Nelsplat
- Hotspot
- Afford-a-balls (dear god)
- DraXXus Gold

Some of those are discontinued paint brands so who knows how old they are...

So tempted to suspend Kitty just so I can say I have....
Okay, fuck it....I just banned Kitty, that's going in the sig.

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