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ATF Seizes 30 Toy Guns, Says "They Can Be Converted Into Machine Guns"


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#51 madsnipes

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Posted 17 June 2011 - 11:52 AM

wow retards

#52 XtremeShooter21

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Posted 29 July 2011 - 02:16 PM

The ATF is the dumbest gov agency. Is hard to belive that still get funded.

Edited by XtremeShooter21, 29 July 2011 - 02:18 PM.

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#53 Justbunkeredyou

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Posted 30 July 2011 - 08:12 PM

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#54 SlovPeter

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Posted 05 August 2011 - 08:01 PM

LOL now this, god how stupid can the ATF be. Makes me laugh!

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#55 Loren

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Posted 12 August 2011 - 08:04 PM

YAY! Democrates, go big Goverment! :rolleyes:

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#56 DruidicRifleman

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Posted 12 August 2011 - 08:56 PM

the receiver of an M4/M16 doesnt have much pressure exerted on it, its all exerted on the chamber, which is a part of the barrel, and the bolt/bolt face.....
which is the reason why companies like HK and FN can make guns and gun parts out of high impact temp. resistant plastic and advanced polymers.. look at the G36/XM8 or teh FN F2000/P90.

i am not saying that is possible to fully convert, but with the right receiver, its plausible.... yet again, the anti gun media and anti gun nuts are trying to instill fear in a nation that was built and protected by citizens with guns.... lets not forget our roots...


http://www.google.ca...iw=1152&bih=674

Some really low pressure...

Lets review A .20 grain BB at 300 or 400 FPS VS a 60 grain bullet at 2500 3000FPS. Recoil forces alone will shatter an air-soft receiver Sending shrapnel into the user's face

Those who thinkthey ca convert anairsoft gun to Fire realbullets for the most part..

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HOW EVER.... model COULD be the asahi M40A1 and thats why it is very rare

Edited by DruidicRifleman, 12 August 2011 - 09:03 PM.

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#57 Marchal03

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Posted 23 August 2011 - 08:13 PM

What a waste of tax payer money.... I would like to see how you can make a airsoft gun into a deadly lethal weapon like a machine gun. Why don't they stop investigating toys and start doing real investigations? Like illegal drugs being smuggled in to the US or Illegal Aliens etc.
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#58 DruidicRifleman

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Posted 23 August 2011 - 08:39 PM

What a waste of tax payer money.... I would like to see how you can make a airsoft gun into a deadly lethal weapon like a machine gun. Why don't they stop investigating toys and start doing real investigations? Like illegal drugs being smuggled in to the US or Illegal Aliens etc.


Cause those drug and people smugglers have fully auto Ak47's they steal from the Mexican government
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#59 Vaellis

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Posted 23 August 2011 - 08:40 PM


What a waste of tax payer money.... I would like to see how you can make a airsoft gun into a deadly lethal weapon like a machine gun. Why don't they stop investigating toys and start doing real investigations? Like illegal drugs being smuggled in to the US or Illegal Aliens etc.


Cause those drug and people smugglers have fully auto Ak47's they steal from the Mexican government



Are you sure there not converted airsoft guns? :dodgy:
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#60 UV Halo

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Posted 26 August 2011 - 12:42 PM

I'm not going to say the ATF is correct in it's seizure but, there's a lot of ignorance in this thread. A lot of it stems from terminology.

First, folks need to know what the ATF considers to be the key components of a gun like the AR15, to understand that, you need to understand the AR15 (for those that don't know):

Two major sections:
Upper Receiver (Barrel, Bolt and Carrier Kit, Charging Handle Kit, Upper Receiver Parts Kit, Gas block, Handguard)
Lower Receiver (The Lower Receiver itself, the Lower Receiver Parts Kit (hammer, pins, etc), Pistol Grip, Trigger Guard, Trigger, Buffer Tube, Butt Stock.

For legal and regulatory purposes, the ATF only considers the Lower Receiver (only the frame not all the internal parts) as the gun. So, you can buy all of the other parts, all day, every day, on the internet without any interferance from the ATF. You try to buy the lower receiver, and then you need to file paperwork, etc.

The ATF seized the items because the Airsoft guns LOWERS could be used to build a firearm using openly available AR15 parts. Now, consider that that model of Airsoft gun has lower receiver internals very similar to the lower receiver of an actual M4, meaning that with some modification, you could end up with a burst / full auto capable firearm to boot. All under the radar of the ATF.

The messed up part is that there is no real reason to make the lowers of an airsoft gun functionally identical to a real gun. They could have come up with any number of diferent ways to make the gun cycle.




#61 DruidicRifleman

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Posted 26 August 2011 - 07:34 PM

UVhalo

You can do that with a cutting board if you know how.

Making an Ar15 in the USA IS legal ANd there is no functional similarity it's electrically bassed.

It's no more difficult to make a full auto AR from scratch

there are machinist diagrams online that so every step.
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#62 malitov

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Posted 26 August 2011 - 08:17 PM

I'm not going to say the ATF is correct in it's seizure but, there's a lot of ignorance in this thread. A lot of it stems from terminology.

First, folks need to know what the ATF considers to be the key components of a gun like the AR15, to understand that, you need to understand the AR15 (for those that don't know):

Two major sections:
Upper Receiver (Barrel, Bolt and Carrier Kit, Charging Handle Kit, Upper Receiver Parts Kit, Gas block, Handguard)
Lower Receiver (The Lower Receiver itself, the Lower Receiver Parts Kit (hammer, pins, etc), Pistol Grip, Trigger Guard, Trigger, Buffer Tube, Butt Stock.

For legal and regulatory purposes, the ATF only considers the Lower Receiver (only the frame not all the internal parts) as the gun. So, you can buy all of the other parts, all day, every day, on the internet without any interferance from the ATF. You try to buy the lower receiver, and then you need to file paperwork, etc.

The ATF seized the items because the Airsoft guns LOWERS could be used to build a firearm using openly available AR15 parts. Now, consider that that model of Airsoft gun has lower receiver internals very similar to the lower receiver of an actual M4, meaning that with some modification, you could end up with a burst / full auto capable firearm to boot. All under the radar of the ATF.

The messed up part is that there is no real reason to make the lowers of an airsoft gun functionally identical to a real gun. They could have come up with any number of diferent ways to make the gun cycle.





They confiscated TOYS. Whats next nerf guns? How about toy light sabers? If this is who we have regulating guns in our nation then I fear for our nations future.

Watch out next they'll be raiding lumber yards.

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Edited by malitov, 26 August 2011 - 08:22 PM.


#63 IwannaWAFFLE

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Posted 26 August 2011 - 09:06 PM

you would have to basically replace the whole receiver, both parts and the barrel, by then you have registered firearm(all the lowers have to be registered).....

so not worth it, you can just buy one for less hassle and money.
dumb people will always be dumb, thanks ATF for being uneducated retards..

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#64 UV Halo

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Posted 26 August 2011 - 09:36 PM

You can do that with a cutting board if you know how.


LOL Wut?

Making an Ar15 in the USA IS legal ANd there is no functional similarity it's electrically bassed.


No shit, I've helped build one myself. And you are clearly wrong. The airguns seized were WE Tech TTI M4s and they are gas blowback operated and here's a quote from the busted importer (mind you, if he's exaggerated, it was in his favor):

Now we at Airsoft Outlet Northwest, being the rational individuals we are, went out and had a gunsmith check the true compatibility of these replicas and found the following information:

  • The WE TTI M4′s lack any sort of functional gas tube which is integral to an AR15′s operation
  • The upper receiver of an AR15 fits onto the lower of the WE TTI M4
  • The stock trigger pack in the WE TTI cannot strike the firing pin of a AR15 bolt
  • The body of the WE TTI lower is several mils thinner than an AR15 lower, and shims would be needed for any AR trigger pack to work
  • The trigger pack of an AR15 appears to be able to fit onto the lower receiver of a WE TTI M4, one of the AR15 trigger pack retaining pins is impossible to insert without major modification, and the hammer isn't operable with the WE TTI lower.
So essentially these Airsoft replicas cannot even operate an AR15 trigger pack without heavy modification with a precise tooling system operated by someone who knows the specific measurements to drill and tap the WE TTI lower receiver.


Shims would help get the airsoft lower to fit onto let's say, a Rock River Arms upper. The stock trigger pack (springs, hammer, etc) could be replaced with an aftermarket trigger pack but, you need to drill holes for one pin, and the dimensions are easy to find on the internet. Contrary to what the shop owner says, you don't need a precise tooling system.

It's no more difficult to make a full auto AR from scratch

there are machinist diagrams online that so every step.


Making a lower receiver (as you say, "from scratch") without a Federal Firearm License is illegal and can land you in jail. Now, I don't know about you but, I think it's significantly easier to drill out a couple pin holes, than it is to build the body of lower receiver from scratch.

They confiscated TOYS. Whats next nerf guns? How about toy light sabers? If this is who we have regulating guns in our nation then I fear for our nations future.


Dude, really? Add some facts to backup your assertion. Otherwise, don't waste our time.

#65 DruidicRifleman

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Posted 26 August 2011 - 09:54 PM


You can do that with a cutting board if you know how.


LOL Wut?

Making an Ar15 in the USA IS legal ANd there is no functional similarity it's electrically bassed.


No shit, I've helped build one myself. And you are clearly wrong. The airguns seized were WE Tech TTI M4s and they are gas blowback operated and here's a quote from the busted importer (mind you, if he's exaggerated, it was in his favor):

Now we at Airsoft Outlet Northwest, being the rational individuals we are, went out and had a gunsmith check the true compatibility of these replicas and found the following information:

  • The WE TTI M4′s lack any sort of functional gas tube which is integral to an AR15′s operation
  • The upper receiver of an AR15 fits onto the lower of the WE TTI M4
  • The stock trigger pack in the WE TTI cannot strike the firing pin of a AR15 bolt
  • The body of the WE TTI lower is several mils thinner than an AR15 lower, and shims would be needed for any AR trigger pack to work
  • The trigger pack of an AR15 appears to be able to fit onto the lower receiver of a WE TTI M4, one of the AR15 trigger pack retaining pins is impossible to insert without major modification, and the hammer isn't operable with the WE TTI lower.
So essentially these Airsoft replicas cannot even operate an AR15 trigger pack without heavy modification with a precise tooling system operated by someone who knows the specific measurements to drill and tap the WE TTI lower receiver.


Shims would help get the airsoft lower to fit onto let's say, a Rock River Arms upper. The stock trigger pack (springs, hammer, etc) could be replaced with an aftermarket trigger pack but, you need to drill holes for one pin, and the dimensions are easy to find on the internet. Contrary to what the shop owner says, you don't need a precise tooling system.

It's no more difficult to make a full auto AR from scratch

there are machinist diagrams online that so every step.


Making a lower receiver (as you say, "from scratch") without a Federal Firearm License is illegal and can land you in jail. Now, I don't know about you but, I think it's significantly easier to drill out a couple pin holes, than it is to build the body of lower receiver from scratch.

They confiscated TOYS. Whats next nerf guns? How about toy light sabers? If this is who we have regulating guns in our nation then I fear for our nations future.


Dude, really? Add some facts to backup your assertion. Otherwise, don't waste our time.


http://www.weaponeer.net/ one of the user's there built a working AR15 lower receiver from a Kitchen cutting board. another from pine

AND FFL's are not required to MAKE a Semi auto Firearm last time i checked any laws ONLY to sell them Less the laws have change when i looked Though if you know of a specific law that forbids building a firearm for personal use LINK? I like to keep abreast of changing gun laws in the USA.

Edited by DruidicRifleman, 26 August 2011 - 09:59 PM.

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#66 malitov

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Posted 26 August 2011 - 11:51 PM

They went out of their way to confiscate fake guns. Wasted time, tax dollars, and made themselves look even worse than they already do. The ATF is a joke.

#67 Kodiak

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Posted 27 August 2011 - 01:15 PM

Problem: in most states, FIREARMS ARE NOT TRACEABLE! Stores only keep sales records for a few months before throwing them in the trash. The federal government and most state governments (possibly a few exceptions) never find out where certain firearms go or who buys them. Even though background checks are required in order to purchase firearms, the government never finds out why you are being checked. The only firearms that are required to be registered are fully automatic weapons (which are so expensive by themselves that the average crook could never afford one.)...


You are mistaken. A legal firearm is traceable from the manufacturer to the distributor to the licensed gun dealer to the buyer. If you buy from a licensed gun dealer they have to fill out and retain a form 4473. If you don't want your firearm to be "traceable" buy it uses from a private owner. Of course, check your local and state laws.

Section 12.7 Record retention period. The regulations provided under the NFA, specifically 27 CFR
479.131, provide that the retention periods for required records shall be in conformity with the
requirements specified under Part 478. As provided by Part 478:

(4) All FFLs shall retain each Form 4473 and 4473(LV) for a period not less than 20 years from
the date of sale or disposition of the firearms.


Link to full document.

#68 Kodiak

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Posted 27 August 2011 - 01:32 PM

AND FFL's are not required to MAKE a Semi auto Firearm last time i checked any laws ONLY to sell them Less the laws have change when i looked Though if you know of a specific law that forbids building a firearm for personal use LINK? I like to keep abreast of changing gun laws in the USA.

There is a difference between "making" a firearm and "building" a firearm. If you want to build an AR-15, the only registered part will be the lower. If you want to make a firearm you have to go thru the ATF first.

Section 6.1 Requirements for making NFA firearms.
Persons not otherwise prohibited from possessing firearms may submit an application to make an NFA firearm, other than a machinegun. The application process requires submission of ATF Form 1, Application to Make and Register a Firearm, in duplicate, along with FBI FD-258, Fingerprint Card, in duplicate, and payment of the $200 making tax...


Link to full document.

Edited by Kodiak, 28 August 2011 - 09:09 AM.


#69 pbkid74

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Posted 27 August 2011 - 01:50 PM

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#70 krispy022

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Posted 27 August 2011 - 02:23 PM

i love people getting into fights about legality of firearms were talking about criminals not law abiding citizens so traceable firearms arent a problem whn you buy them off the streets and who thinks your going to get a 1500 dollar ar to slap another 400 dollar airsoft lower that you have to take allot of time to modify and isnt going to work for long. rather than just buying a full auto off the streets or even better a y milled ak that you can make into full auto or a g3/cetme that you can buy a full auto lower legally for im trying to say theres easyer ways to do this and allot less expensive the atf is just stupid and makes it harder for good people to get guns and does nothing to stops criminals hell they even give them guns

#71 DruidicRifleman

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Posted 27 August 2011 - 11:06 PM

Yeah waste of tax dollars...

inthe end we are still discussing an agency thats ILLEGAL Covert programs have gotten150 mexicancitenskilled one special agent is wanted in Mexico for 150 counts of Accessory to murder for helping the cartels Smuggle guns. And this was directly approved From the top DOJ
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#72 PBjones

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Posted 05 September 2011 - 11:55 AM

AND FFL's are not required to MAKE a Semi auto Firearm last time i checked any laws ONLY to sell them Less the laws have change when i looked Though if you know of a specific law that forbids building a firearm for personal use LINK? I like to keep abreast of changing gun laws in the USA.

There is a difference between "making" a firearm and "building" a firearm. If you want to build an AR-15, the only registered part will be the lower. If you want to make a firearm you have to go thru the ATF first.

Section 6.1 Requirements for making NFA firearms.
Persons not otherwise prohibited from possessing firearms may submit an application to make an NFA firearm, other than a machinegun. The application process requires submission of ATF Form 1, Application to Make and Register a Firearm, in duplicate, along with FBI FD-258, Fingerprint Card, in duplicate, and payment of the $200 making tax...


Link to full document.


You are incorrect. It is not illegal to make firearms. You can make firearms for personal use all day long.

The only time that you have to apply for an FFL is if you are making them with the intent to sell, usually in large quantities. Then you are no longer a private citizen, you are a manufacturer, and certain rules apply to you. Mostly dealing with taxes, serial numbers and records keeping.

The regulation that you quoted is actually dealing with ”NFA” items, which are weapons controlled under the National Firearms Act. This refers mainly to automatic weapons, short barrel rifles, suppressors, and items that fall under the category of AOW, such as pistols with a forward grip.

NFA items require a $200 tax stamp to make or purchase, not regular semi-auto firearms.

In the end, this case is retarded because these airsoft guns are not capable of being mated to a functioning upper receiver. At least not without as much, if not more effort than it would take to make an AR lower from a blank that you can buy for $80.

And for those of you saying ” herp derp untracable automatic weapons!”, google the words: lightning link.

There are much cheaper and easier ways to get your hands on a full-auto AR. Anybody with the technical skills, knowledge and tools required to convert a TOY into a weapon has much more economical and easier means to achieve the same results.

The ATF is just flexing their pathetically small nuts over a bunch of toys. That whole organization is rotten to the core and the crap that they pulled with ”fast and furious” proves it.

The worst part is that nobody even lost their job over it, they just got reassigned. That entire branch of federal law enforcement needs to be gutted.

Edited by PBjones, 05 September 2011 - 07:29 PM.


#73 Kodiak

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Posted 05 September 2011 - 06:13 PM


AND FFL's are not required to MAKE a Semi auto Firearm last time i checked any laws ONLY to sell them Less the laws have change when i looked Though if you know of a specific law that forbids building a firearm for personal use LINK? I like to keep abreast of changing gun laws in the USA.

There is a difference between "making" a firearm and "building" a firearm. If you want to build an AR-15, the only registered part will be the lower. If you want to make a firearm you have to go thru the ATF first.

Section 6.1 Requirements for making NFA firearms.
Persons not otherwise prohibited from possessing firearms may submit an application to make an NFA firearm, other than a machinegun. The application process requires submission of ATF Form 1, Application to Make and Register a Firearm, in duplicate, along with FBI FD-258, Fingerprint Card, in duplicate, and payment of the $200 making tax...


Link to full document.


You are incorrect. It is not illegal to make firearms...

Good catch, I missed the "NFA" only completely.

Q: Does the GCA (Gun Control Act) prohibit anyone from making a handgun, shotgun or rifle?

With certain exceptions a firearm may be made by a non-licensee provided it is not for sale and the maker is not prohibited from possessing firearms. However, a person is prohibited from assembling a non-sporting semi-automatic rifle or non-sporting shotgun from imported parts. In addition, the making of an NFA firearm requires a tax payment and approval by ATF. An application to make a machine gun will not be approved unless documentation is submitted showing that the firearm is being made for a Federal or State agency.

[18 U.S.C. 922(o) and ®, 26 U.S.C. 5822, 27 CFR 478.39, 479.62 and 479.105]


Edited by Kodiak, 05 September 2011 - 06:19 PM.


#74 PBjones

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Posted 05 September 2011 - 07:25 PM

***Mods, please delete this post. I replied when I meant to edit, and I can't delete posts from my phone.

Thanks.

Edited by PBjones, 05 September 2011 - 07:31 PM.


#75 junits15

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Posted 05 September 2011 - 08:04 PM

"can be converted to real guns" right I don't even play airsoft and I know that's not true. Also I love how its completely legal to make a gun in your house but people are getting all uptight about airsoft guns that look real. Way to go America we did it again.
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#76 Aulldeath

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Posted 05 September 2011 - 08:32 PM

LOL, the guy who claims you can convert it to a machine gun, was putting the mag in backwards....
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#77 DruidicRifleman

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Posted 13 September 2011 - 11:12 AM


AND FFL's are not required to MAKE a Semi auto Firearm last time i checked any laws ONLY to sell them Less the laws have change when i looked Though if you know of a specific law that forbids building a firearm for personal use LINK? I like to keep abreast of changing gun laws in the USA.

There is a difference between "making" a firearm and "building" a firearm. If you want to build an AR-15, the only registered part will be the lower. If you want to make a firearm you have to go thru the ATF first.

Section 6.1 Requirements for making NFA firearms.
Persons not otherwise prohibited from possessing firearms may submit an application to make an NFA firearm, other than a machinegun. The application process requires submission of ATF Form 1, Application to Make and Register a Firearm, in duplicate, along with FBI FD-258, Fingerprint Card, in duplicate, and payment of the $200 making tax...


Link to full document.


You are incorrect. It is not illegal to make firearms. You can make firearms for personal use all day long.

The only time that you have to apply for an FFL is if you are making them with the intent to sell, usually in large quantities. Then you are no longer a private citizen, you are a manufacturer, and certain rules apply to you. Mostly dealing with taxes, serial numbers and records keeping.

The regulation that you quoted is actually dealing with "NFA" items, which are weapons controlled under the National Firearms Act. This refers mainly to automatic weapons, short barrel rifles, suppressors, and items that fall under the category of AOW, such as pistols with a forward grip.

NFA items require a $200 tax stamp to make or purchase, not regular semi-auto firearms.

In the end, this case is retarded because these airsoft guns are not capable of being mated to a functioning upper receiver. At least not without as much, if not more effort than it would take to make an AR lower from a blank that you can buy for $80.

And for those of you saying " herp derp untracable automatic weapons!", google the words: lightning link.

There are much cheaper and easier ways to get your hands on a full-auto AR. Anybody with the technical skills, knowledge and tools required to convert a TOY into a weapon has much more economical and easier means to achieve the same results.

The ATF is just flexing their pathetically small nuts over a bunch of toys. That whole organization is rotten to the core and the crap that they pulled with "fast and furious" proves it.

The worst part is that nobody even lost their job over it, they just got reassigned. That entire branch of federal law enforcement needs to be gutted.


150 Counts accessory to murder Under Mexican law. Aiding and abbeting Arms smuggling after the fact 2000 Counts.2000 Counts endangering the public. 2000 Counts High treason for providing arms to an enemyof the USA. And thats just the arizona office you have cast away and 2 other programs just as bad.

It's worse then water gate and Iran contra

Also I have Conversion How to'sfor every thing from the1022 to a 1911. Buying airsoft guns to Build a full auto IS a retarded means any high school kid knows this.

Edited by DruidicRifleman, 13 September 2011 - 11:17 AM.

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#78 Rotozip2

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Posted 23 September 2011 - 01:54 AM

I think the ATF is just trying to cover their ass after they made a massive idiotic mistake.

If they thought it could be make into a functioning firearm. They would be having people pay the $200 dollar tax stamp just to own the damn things because the guns can shoot "full auto".

Edited by Rotozip2, 23 September 2011 - 01:55 AM.

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#79 That Rich Paintballer

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Posted 03 October 2011 - 04:35 PM

That guy has no idea what he is talkin about, they can be converted to machine guns with minimal effort, my ass. Unless that kid is extremely smart

#80 Hitman2513

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Posted 15 October 2011 - 11:51 PM

I always thought airsoft is stupid I see guys at my recball field dressed up like the dude on the cover of Modern Warfare 2 with an M4/M16 a few minutes later I see him sit down and he pulls a snickerbar from his vest *facepalm* they say they use everything they have on the field I only carry a pod pack filled with paint
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