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After years of discussion: KICK!


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#101 Spitlebug

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Posted 15 August 2011 - 03:33 PM

I was thinking less about the internal movement, and more about the gas exhaust (and probably along the lines of what Spittle is thinking).


^^ This. Would backpressure be the correct nomenclature? Or transferred energy via conservation of energy? IN <-- = --> OUT?

If we shot both a spoolie and put it up against a Tippmann, for example, (which has a HUGE hammer) we could possibly see opposite results between under and overbores.


As in more forward momentum regardless of bore?

Edited by Spitlebug, 15 August 2011 - 03:34 PM.

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#102 Troy

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Posted 15 August 2011 - 04:50 PM

^^ This. Would backpressure be the correct nomenclature? Or transferred energy via conservation of energy? IN <-- = --> OUT?


I'm not an engineer, so I may not know the correct nomenclature, but I think "backpressure" is a perfect way to characterize the force I am interested in looking at. Higher the pressure, the faster the paintball accelerates, the lower the pressure, the longer it takes for the paintball to accelerate.

I wonder if we could correlate the intensity of the highest peaks on some of these markers with pressure readings from a transducer in the breach.

If we shot both a spoolie and put it up against a Tippmann, for example, (which has a HUGE hammer) we could possibly see opposite results between under and overbores.


As in more forward momentum regardless of bore?


I think with a marker with a big hammer like a Tippmann's, the hammer would be, by far, the biggest cause of kick so much so that the backpressure effect on the marker would be masked. It's hard to imagine otherwise when you are talking about a chunk of metal that is an order of magnitude or two heavier than a paintball is.

For a Tippmann, specifically, you really need to define how the thing operates to predict whether or not more forward momentum will applied when you shoot it over bored or under bored at a normalized speed. If it has an RVA, it's trivial to say that it will have more forward momentum, because you are actually tightening the spring that shoots the hammer forward on sear release which governs the marker's dwell. With Tippmanns, the recoil in the backward vector would be in flux... and that would be the interesting thing to look at.

An Ego might show more forward momentum. Because it has an LPR, the pressure on the hammer will be static, but the pressure on the valve will be dynamic. As the pressure deceases the pressure on the valve will also decrease which could mean the hammer bottoms out (I'm assuming it does bottom out... but I'm actually not sure if it does or not) faster without decelerating as much as it would at a higher pressure.

A spoolie without an LPR would show signs of it's internals slowing down, insofar as the increased breach pressure from an under bore doesn't effect the bolt's backward momentum.

There is a lot to think about...

Edited by Troy, 15 August 2011 - 04:53 PM.

\m/

#103 rntlee

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Posted 15 August 2011 - 07:15 PM

Does the interference fit of the paintball into an under-bore contribute to kick? How is the extra energy required to overcome the added friction dissipated?

#104 cockerpunk

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Posted 15 August 2011 - 09:16 PM

my impression is that in and underbore, the acceleration of the paintball is faster. faster acceleration = high force.

now, if that is large enough to feel/measure ... i dont know.

Edited by cockerpunk, 15 August 2011 - 09:17 PM.

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#105 Snipez4664

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Posted 15 August 2011 - 10:46 PM

If the change in pressure is only due to expansion (no blowby condition in an underbore) the peak acceleration for the same velocity will be slower for a given control bore
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#106 Slu

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Posted 15 August 2011 - 11:20 PM


Yeah, so you might as well objectively measure and quantify what you can, and then keep subjectivity separate while also noted.


exactly. My thoughts on this are that we run two parallel tests using the same data.

I want to collect a library of guns for reference as well as just cause it'll be cool to have. While we're doing that my thought was that we record perception of the quality of the kick of the gun along side the graphs. That way we can later group guns that were perceived to shoot smoothly and see if we can determine what aspect of the guns' movement gave that impression.

The basic test that I proposed to Gordo last time we talked was to round up a big pile o guns at the field. We just set up in the chrono station and get a line of shooters. We have say 5 shooters and 10 guns. Each shooter shoots each gun and rates it on a smoothness scale - say 1 being least smooth and 10 being most kicky. We record graphs like those above for each gun. We can then take the mean perceived rating and see if there are any patterns. As long as we're consistent with how we post the test we should be able to continue to add data any time we feel like setting up at the field.


If I could add my 2 cents to this. I would also like to see the shooters wear ear muffs. The Harsher sounding markers may be perceived to be more kicky do to sound sigature and not physical sensation.
I'm very interested to see how preception of kick lines up with the tests. Will the smoother markers be the ones with lower peaks or the ones that have the widest Que to their peaks or will it be the ones that + movement most match the - movement or will it be the average of the whole.
I'm wondering what data you could get by using the adjustments to the solenoid of an Ego 11 to speed up and slow down the bolt cycling in different ways to see what is preceived as more or less kicky.

#107 brycelarson

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Posted 16 August 2011 - 07:16 AM

If I could add my 2 cents to this. I would also like to see the shooters wear ear muffs. The Harsher sounding markers may be perceived to be more kicky do to sound sigature and not physical sensation.
I'm very interested to see how preception of kick lines up with the tests. Will the smoother markers be the ones with lower peaks or the ones that have the widest Que to their peaks or will it be the ones that + movement most match the - movement or will it be the average of the whole.
I'm wondering what data you could get by using the adjustments to the solenoid of an Ego 11 to speed up and slow down the bolt cycling in different ways to see what is preceived as more or less kicky.


the ego 11 will certainly be a fun platform to test on this rig. In fact, we could repeat the test as a single blind by using ego 11s with various settings and not telling the shooters which one they were shooting.

#108 Troy

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Posted 16 August 2011 - 09:45 AM

If the change in pressure is only due to expansion (no blowby condition in an underbore) the peak acceleration for the same velocity will be slower for a given control bore


Could you break down your thoughts on this a little more?... cause I'm dumb.

I think you're assuming that the acceleration curves for both an overbore and an underbore are the same... which may not be a flawed assumption. I'm thinking that the energy imparted on a paintball in an underbore situation may be closer to exponential (with a much greater peak acceleration at the beginning, and less at the end) due to the fact that there isn't any blowby gasses as it expands. Whereas an overbore that does have blow by would relieve so much pressure that it's acceleration curve would be closer to linear. I'm also stipulating that the extra energy released by the valve to propel the ball is trivial compared to the movement of the ball itself.

I'm very often wrong on these forums... I just like to know WHY I'm wrong.
\m/

#109 brycelarson

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Posted 16 August 2011 - 10:24 AM

Re: the hammer mass on the 98 - I'll argue forever that the largest force in any paintball gun isn't the hammer/rammer etc - it's the ball accelerating. We're talking about a 3g object going from 0 to 300 fps in a couple of ms. That's going to be a much larger force than a 20-something gram hammer moving an inch propelled by a spring.

Something to think about - and I'm not sure exactly how it applies to the under/overbore conversation - but it may influence results - in our dry fire v paint efficiency test we found that some systems did respond differently to backpressure - some didn't. The Sniper changed somewhat with and without paint - the Ion didn't change at all. This may mean that different valve types and designs will respond differently to backpressure. To me this means backpressure changes valve operation and resolution on some systems but not others.

#110 Troy

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Posted 16 August 2011 - 11:01 AM

Re: the hammer mass on the 98 - I'll argue forever that the largest force in any paintball gun isn't the hammer/rammer etc - it's the ball accelerating. We're talking about a 3g object going from 0 to 300 fps in a couple of ms. That's going to be a much larger force than a 20-something gram hammer moving an inch propelled by a spring


I'll grant you the fact that the hammer on a 98 doesn't recieve as much force being propelled into the valve by the drive spring as the paintball going out the barrel, however, this may not hold true for the reciprocal motion, which is when the hammer is propelled AWAY from the valve by expanding gasses. As I stated above, this is the only interesting effect a change in operating pressure will make on a 98's internals. The 98's hammer doesn't slam to a stop before it's caught by the sear, it's motion is modulated by the drive spring, but that initial push against the hammer to get it going in the right direction is, probably, a big one... and it's influence shouldn't be discounted on the marker's kick.

Also, as I've said earlier... I've been proven wrong on these boards a bunch of times, and this could be the case here as well.
\m/

#111 rntlee

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Posted 16 August 2011 - 11:48 AM

Re: the hammer mass on the 98 - I'll argue forever that the largest force in any paintball gun isn't the hammer/rammer etc - it's the ball accelerating. We're talking about a 3g object going from 0 to 300 fps in a couple of ms. That's going to be a much larger force than a 20-something gram hammer moving an inch propelled by a spring.





Just a fyi...the stock hammer on a 98 or BT-4 weighs around 140 grams and travels the 1.6 inches of stroke forward at about 1.5 m/s and blows back at about 3 m/s.

#112 Snipez4664

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Posted 16 August 2011 - 12:16 PM


If the change in pressure is only due to expansion (no blowby condition in an underbore) the peak acceleration for the same velocity will be slower for a given control bore


Could you break down your thoughts on this a little more?... cause I'm dumb.

I think you're assuming that the acceleration curves for both an overbore and an underbore are the same... which may not be a flawed assumption. I'm thinking that the energy imparted on a paintball in an underbore situation may be closer to exponential (with a much greater peak acceleration at the beginning, and less at the end) due to the fact that there isn't any blowby gasses as it expands. Whereas an overbore that does have blow by would relieve so much pressure that it's acceleration curve would be closer to linear. I'm also stipulating that the extra energy released by the valve to propel the ball is trivial compared to the movement of the ball itself.

I'm very often wrong on these forums... I just like to know WHY I'm wrong.



If you have blowby, you are losing energy as it moves down the barrel

if you can't put energy efficiently into the ball at the muzzle end of the control bore, the initial pressure and therefore acceleration must be higher
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#113 Troy

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Posted 16 August 2011 - 01:05 PM

If you have blowby, you are losing energy as it moves down the barrel

if you can't put energy efficiently into the ball at the muzzle end of the control bore, the initial pressure and therefore acceleration must be higher


That makes sense, thanks.
\m/

#114 y0da900

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Posted 16 August 2011 - 06:23 PM

I think it would be interesting to have a decent range of guns for a random crowd to take a few shots each with and ask them to subjectively rate the recoil in a lowest to highest manner so their opinions can be compared to the accelerometer results.

#115 brycelarson

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Posted 16 August 2011 - 07:22 PM

I think it would be interesting to have a decent range of guns for a random crowd to take a few shots each with and ask them to subjectively rate the recoil in a lowest to highest manner so their opinions can be compared to the accelerometer results.


yeah, rating them would be a good way to keep comparisons in line. sample of 5 - rate them in order from 1 to 5 least to most kick.

#116 y0da900

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Posted 16 August 2011 - 07:56 PM

I think it would be interesting not just in a how perceptive are people factor, but may give some clues into what aspect of the kick is actually picked up by more people as kick. It isn't just how much the gun moves, but how long it is moving.

#117 cockerpunk

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Posted 16 August 2011 - 10:09 PM

I think it would be interesting not just in a how perceptive are people factor, but may give some clues into what aspect of the kick is actually picked up by more people as kick. It isn't just how much the gun moves, but how long it is moving.


thats the idea!
The ultimate truth in paintball is that the interaction between the gun and the player is far and away the largest factor in accuracy, consistency, and reliability.

And yes, Gordon is the sexiest manifestation of "to the front."


#118 Spitlebug

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Posted 16 August 2011 - 11:24 PM

It would be interesting to have a blind test though and have people rate kick on various markers and see how accurate the general populace is at actually detecting kick by using nothing but physical senses and then comparing that agaist actual data for the period in which the marker was shot. This might discount people being able to tell "kick" in a meaningful way.

I.E. anecdotal recounting of kick may be dismissed almost entirely.

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#119 Spitlebug

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Posted 16 August 2011 - 11:26 PM

*edit* I would also like to see a comparison where a marker is tuned really poorly (I.E. ultra high LPR and low HPR with high dwell) too see if that has a huge skew on what can be perceived as kick.

Lots of data can be mined from that for sure.

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#120 y0da900

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Posted 17 August 2011 - 04:57 PM

Not sure if it is posted here anywhere, but in the test Bryce ran on our mechanical Ion kit, I was rather surprised with the results. I would have had no problem stating that it has more kick than a standard Ion, at least more that is perceived because there is not a consistent and automatic return of the bolt at a specific time after the bolt forward motion. I believe that the ability to pick up on the recoil of the bolt in separate directions as separate instances skews the perception despite that the net "area under the curve" is incredibly close to a standard Ion.

#121 cockerpunk

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Posted 07 October 2011 - 12:30 PM

i have many many more of these to post today, stay tuned!
The ultimate truth in paintball is that the interaction between the gun and the player is far and away the largest factor in accuracy, consistency, and reliability.

And yes, Gordon is the sexiest manifestation of "to the front."


#122 cockerpunk

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Posted 07 October 2011 - 01:49 PM

these should be much better graphs then before, i worked on them pretty good. i will also edit them into the first post.

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The ultimate truth in paintball is that the interaction between the gun and the player is far and away the largest factor in accuracy, consistency, and reliability.

And yes, Gordon is the sexiest manifestation of "to the front."


#123 brycelarson

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Posted 07 October 2011 - 02:20 PM

these should be much better graphs then before, i worked on them pretty good. i will also edit them into the first post.


Gordon worked on them pretty good! He speak english good.

The graphs do look excellent.

#124 rntlee

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Posted 07 October 2011 - 05:07 PM

Probably a ridiculous question, but is it possible to correlate high-speed video with the sensor readings to see what is actually happening?

I'm thinking recoil from the ball's exit shouldould be the largest contributor (peak?). It should be close to the same for all guns, right? Why is there so much variation between large peaks? Is it simply a matter of ergonomics?

Edit: Are you dry-firing?...

Edited by rntlee, 07 October 2011 - 05:07 PM.


#125 brycelarson

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Posted 07 October 2011 - 06:54 PM

Probably a ridiculous question, but is it possible to correlate high-speed video with the sensor readings to see what is actually happening?

I'm thinking recoil from the ball's exit shouldould be the largest contributor (peak?). It should be close to the same for all guns, right? Why is there so much variation between large peaks? Is it simply a matter of ergonomics?

Edit: Are you dry-firing?...


not a ridiculous question at all - I'm sure we'll work out a way to do it. The trick is getting a sync signal.

As to what everything is - we don't necessarily have any better ideas than you do. That said - I think you're correct. The ball's acceleration should be the largest peak.

I think we determined that up is back based on how we mount the sensor - so the largest peak upwards should be the one related to ball acceleration.

As to height of peaks - two things to keep in mind. 1. There obviously could be some differences in valve operation and breech pressure - so there could be differences in rate of acceleration. 2. We're sampling at 1k for these tests - so peak detection isn't necessarily going to be the strongest piece of data we're collecting. Overall cycle timing and scale is reasonable to take from our data - but the chances of a sample landing exactly right on the peak of the impulse isn't guaranteed.

I'll screen shot and mark up a couple of impulses based on what I think things are.

does this look right to everyone?

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Edited by brycelarson, 08 October 2011 - 07:38 AM.


#126 Magmoormaster

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Posted 09 October 2011 - 10:30 PM

Am I reading this right that a Geo2 has more kick than an Etek3? That's depressing.

#127 The_Economist

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Posted 10 October 2011 - 12:00 AM

The Ego 9 looks satisfyingly kicky.


#128 brycelarson

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Posted 10 October 2011 - 07:19 AM

Am I reading this right that a Geo2 has more kick than an Etek3? That's depressing.



The Ego 9 looks satisfyingly kicky.


I can't actually agree with either of those statements yet. We now have traces of what the gun is actually doing - but we haven't added the human factor yet. We need some testing involving people telling us how a gun feels to align with the data. That might start to give us a better picture about what creates the perception of kick.

#129 cockerpunk

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Posted 10 October 2011 - 12:42 PM

exactly right bryce. i suggest we get a samplin of 10 players or so, and two, or three guns with very different kick profiles, and then test them and ask the players afterwards to rank each gun.

however, looking at this data we have so far collected, im not sure how to see the difference. nothing really pops out at me besides the "ring out" at the end of the shot for charactoriszation. maybe the ring out is what we feel, that would make the most sense.
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And yes, Gordon is the sexiest manifestation of "to the front."


#130 The_Economist

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Posted 10 October 2011 - 06:22 PM


The Ego 9 looks satisfyingly kicky.


I can't actually agree with either of those statements yet. We now have traces of what the gun is actually doing - but we haven't added the human factor yet. We need some testing involving people telling us how a gun feels to align with the data. That might start to give us a better picture about what creates the perception of kick.


I only say it because that's what I own and it feels great to me. I'm not very "kick-averse," though, a paintball gun's kick has never really mattered to me.


#131 brycelarson

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Posted 10 October 2011 - 07:47 PM

I only say it because that's what I own and it feels great to me. I'm not very "kick-averse," though, a paintball gun's kick has never really mattered to me.


I get that - I'm just saying we only have one half of the data to line up what you're saying with what we collected. We need the "feel" half.

As Gordon said, our plan is to get a few guns together, have a few people shoot each (hopefully without talking to each other) and rank them on some sort of scale from smoothest to most kicky. I like odd scales so there's a middle - so maybe 1 to 7. Least kicky gun you've ever shot being 1, most a 7.

We can then take the rankings of the guns based on perception then look at the graphs and see if we can see any trends.

Like Gordo said - at this point there's nothing terribly obvious about any of these signals - but that's what we're trying to determine.

#132 The_Economist

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Posted 10 October 2011 - 07:50 PM


I only say it because that's what I own and it feels great to me. I'm not very "kick-averse," though, a paintball gun's kick has never really mattered to me.


I get that - I'm just saying we only have one half of the data to line up what you're saying with what we collected. We need the "feel" half.

As Gordon said, our plan is to get a few guns together, have a few people shoot each (hopefully without talking to each other) and rank them on some sort of scale from smoothest to most kicky. I like odd scales so there's a middle - so maybe 1 to 7. Least kicky gun you've ever shot being 1, most a 7.

We can then take the rankings of the guns based on perception then look at the graphs and see if we can see any trends.

Like Gordo said - at this point there's nothing terribly obvious about any of these signals - but that's what we're trying to determine.


Sounds like a good idea for a test. Too bad you guys are all the way up in MN, or I would volunteer.


#133 brycelarson

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Posted 10 October 2011 - 08:17 PM

Sounds like a good idea for a test. Too bad you guys are all the way up in MN, or I would volunteer.


it's a small rig and easy test. Maybe next year at LL?

#134 The_Economist

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Posted 10 October 2011 - 08:24 PM


Sounds like a good idea for a test. Too bad you guys are all the way up in MN, or I would volunteer.


it's a small rig and easy test. Maybe next year at LL?


I will do my best to be there.


#135 Molybdenum

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Posted 10 October 2011 - 08:30 PM


I only say it because that's what I own and it feels great to me. I'm not very "kick-averse," though, a paintball gun's kick has never really mattered to me.


I get that - I'm just saying we only have one half of the data to line up what you're saying with what we collected. We need the "feel" half.

As Gordon said, our plan is to get a few guns together, have a few people shoot each (hopefully without talking to each other) and rank them on some sort of scale from smoothest to most kicky. I like odd scales so there's a middle - so maybe 1 to 7. Least kicky gun you've ever shot being 1, most a 7.

We can then take the rankings of the guns based on perception then look at the graphs and see if we can see any trends.

Like Gordo said - at this point there's nothing terribly obvious about any of these signals - but that's what we're trying to determine.


I think you would have to blindfold the shooter and re-identify the guns randomly for each subject as guns 1 through whatever just to be safe about eliminating bias.

#136 obsidianjeff

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Posted 10 October 2011 - 08:35 PM

I think you would have to blindfold the shooter and re-identify the guns randomly for each subject as guns 1 through whatever just to be safe about eliminating bias.


on the stance of using a blind study to prevent bias this is good. on the other hand handing a blindfolded person a paintball gun might not be a great idea... another way I think would be to get renters who know absolutely nothing about paintball guns so they don't have any preconceived knowledge of a guns price and whatnot

#137 Molybdenum

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Posted 10 October 2011 - 09:13 PM

on the stance of using a blind study to prevent bias this is good. on the other hand handing a blindfolded person a paintball gun might not be a great idea... another way I think would be to get renters who know absolutely nothing about paintball guns so they don't have any preconceived knowledge of a guns price and whatnot


That's true. I would be comfortable with blindfolded shooters in the chrono station or something where it could be made sure that the shooter knows where to point the gun. I think if you blindfolded them, handed them the gun, pointed it for them, and told them to try to not shift aim you wouldn't have a problem.

I like the Idea of using renters, but they still may have some preconceptions, and they may not be very good judges of "smoothness".

I'd be curious to test a sample of both and compare them.

#138 cockerpunk

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Posted 11 October 2011 - 10:09 AM

shooting blindfolded is not how you play on the feild. when poeple are blindfolded, they tend to walk and carry themselves differently. they ahve different stance when standing, different form, and we want poeple who know guns, have shot lots of guns, and are shooting them like they normally would.

not to mention, simply knowing what gun they are holding is not bias. we arn't ranking guns by brand and no one will be shooting there own gun, there is no "winner." we just want to get feedback on what parts of kick the human perceves the most.
The ultimate truth in paintball is that the interaction between the gun and the player is far and away the largest factor in accuracy, consistency, and reliability.

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#139 The_Economist

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Posted 11 October 2011 - 10:43 AM

there is no "winner." we just want to get feedback on what parts of kick the human perceves the most.


What do you mean? Who is this versus? This has to be against someone! :)


#140 obsidianjeff

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Posted 11 October 2011 - 11:06 AM

I feel that this is at least partially relevant more expensive wine = better taste just like how people think their more expensive barrel shoots better. If people know the gun costs more, they're going to be more partial to it, and possibly think it has lower "kick" than another gun.

this could be another test, where you give newbies all the same 2 or 3 guns, and tell them their prices, but change them around for each person, and see how they compare their perceived kicks

#141 cockerpunk

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Posted 11 October 2011 - 11:10 AM

thats acutally an interesting idea, do bring new guys in with no preconcived notions, however i think that has drawbacks as well.
The ultimate truth in paintball is that the interaction between the gun and the player is far and away the largest factor in accuracy, consistency, and reliability.

And yes, Gordon is the sexiest manifestation of "to the front."


#142 gamefreak054

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Posted 12 October 2011 - 10:13 AM

Maybe do blinfolded experienced players and newer players?




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