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Tiberius First Strike Accuracy Test


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#1 brycelarson

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Posted 14 February 2009 - 04:36 PM

Hey guys, I'm working on a video - but here's the data:

First Strike data

pretty impressive - I would love to see a test at 150'+

#2 JJ GBR

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Posted 14 February 2009 - 04:41 PM

Did you adjust the velocity between the 2 tests?

editted to add - i'm gonna kick myself, but whay do x and y represent?

Edited by JJ GBR, 14 February 2009 - 04:42 PM.


#3 brycelarson

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Posted 14 February 2009 - 05:03 PM

Did you adjust the velocity between the 2 tests?

editted to add - i'm gonna kick myself, but whay do x and y represent?


no and impact locations on my target.

#4 cockerpunk

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Posted 14 February 2009 - 05:06 PM

where did you shoot them?
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#5 Special Ed

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Posted 14 February 2009 - 05:09 PM

Typically X is Horizontal and Y is vertical.

#6 brycelarson

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Posted 14 February 2009 - 05:14 PM

where did you shoot them?


my backyard - I've got about 85' from the fence on the south side to the garage.

really impressive looking in flight - they decelerate drastically slower than regular paint. We need to do the dual-chrono test on these guys.

#7 Lord Odin

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Posted 14 February 2009 - 05:52 PM

Since they travel faster at longer distances, I would think it safe to say that they have a flatter trajectory and don't drop as quickly. Did you notice that?

Edited by Lord Odin, 14 February 2009 - 05:52 PM.


#8 brycelarson

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Posted 14 February 2009 - 06:04 PM

not at this range. they certainly appeared to be going faster on impact with the target - however, they only impacted a fraction of an inch higher on average than the regular balls.

Now, my sample size was very small - so a few outliers on the paintballs could certainly have skewed that result - but no, I didn't see it.

I would expect that as the distance gets longer these guys would really start to show their worth.

and here's the video:

#9 Weigel21

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Posted 14 February 2009 - 06:25 PM

AHH, there's no video!

#10 brycelarson

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Posted 14 February 2009 - 06:41 PM

still processing - youtube is stupid.

#11 Lucas

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Posted 14 February 2009 - 06:54 PM

Bryce:
Is it possible for you to add a key on your spreadsheets?

#12 airlesscoma

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Posted 14 February 2009 - 07:19 PM

still no vid :(

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#13 cockerpunk

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Posted 14 February 2009 - 08:44 PM

nice test bryce!

good to see you found your chrono so we can do some dual chrono testing
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#14 sickbugs

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Posted 14 February 2009 - 09:53 PM

did you laser align the gun with the center of the target? silly question i know, but your results make me think of a comment a guy made about a rifled paintball barrel (i t might have been on here) the rifling seemed to make the ball more consistant (closer grouping) but not more accurate, the grouping was always off to a side of the target.

#15 whats_an_a5

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Posted 14 February 2009 - 10:48 PM

with a real rifle you make minor adjustments after you fired a few rounds. But in this case he only has a very limited quantity so making minor adjustments would mess with the overall data that he was trying to acheive.

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#16 paintball-is-me

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Posted 14 February 2009 - 10:59 PM

nice job bryce!! this is impressive

#17 brycelarson

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Posted 15 February 2009 - 12:02 AM

did you laser align the gun with the center of the target? silly question i know, but your results make me think of a comment a guy made about a rifled paintball barrel (i t might have been on here) the rifling seemed to make the ball more consistant (closer grouping) but not more accurate, the grouping was always off to a side of the target.


I had no intention to hit the center of the target - that wasn't important. I just needed to keep the aim point constant - then the spread tells us about the accuracy of these rounds.

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what do you want to know? I thought it was pretty self-explanatory.

#18 MasterMind88

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Posted 15 February 2009 - 12:34 AM

When you do the multipul chrono test, would it be possible to spread them out evenly over the course of the rounds flight.

like for example, if you were shooting at a distance of 100ft to set the chronos 25ft apart.
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#19 brycelarson

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Posted 15 February 2009 - 12:35 AM

we currently have two chronos - so depending on how many rounds we get - then yes, we'll spread them apart.

#20 chewiestmonkey

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Posted 15 February 2009 - 02:04 AM

hey bryce, could you just take out the bolt on your sniper, put a round in the back, then slide your bolt in, having your bolt push the ball into the barral? wouldnt that be better than taking off the barrel?


great test btw! :tup:

Edited by chewiestmonkey, 15 February 2009 - 02:05 AM.

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#21 Jack Wood

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Posted 15 February 2009 - 09:00 AM

So, obviously time to re-visit back-spin bolts then, heh?

If these rounds only show an improvement of a fraction of an inch over normal balls at 75ft, then that is virtually identical to the results you got from the backspin bolt tests IIRC..............

Edited by Jack Wood, 15 February 2009 - 09:02 AM.

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#22 brycelarson

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Posted 15 February 2009 - 10:57 AM

So, obviously time to re-visit back-spin bolts then, heh?

If these rounds only show an improvement of a fraction of an inch over normal balls at 75ft, then that is virtually identical to the results you got from the backspin bolt tests IIRC..............


yes, the backspin was about an inch higher on average. I hesitate to compare this to that test until I have a larger sample size of regular paint to first strike rounds. having a sample size of only 8 means that one high flyer on the regular paint could skew the results to a much greater degree than at a higher sample size.

However, there is a big difference - and that was the apparent velocity at range. I may shoot the paint again today to get video of the time to impact - but the first strike seemed to arrive at the target much more quickly - while the backspin didn't.

I think I'll just go shoot my garage - then I can look at the audio track of the first strike and the paint - and see how much faster the first strike was going at impact.

#23 Jack Wood

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Posted 15 February 2009 - 11:23 AM

So, obviously time to re-visit back-spin bolts then, heh?

If these rounds only show an improvement of a fraction of an inch over normal balls at 75ft, then that is virtually identical to the results you got from the backspin bolt tests IIRC..............


yes, the backspin was about an inch higher on average. I hesitate to compare this to that test until I have a larger sample size of regular paint to first strike rounds. having a sample size of only 8 means that one high flyer on the regular paint could skew the results to a much greater degree than at a higher sample size.

However, there is a big difference - and that was the apparent velocity at range. I may shoot the paint again today to get video of the time to impact - but the first strike seemed to arrive at the target much more quickly - while the backspin didn't.

I think I'll just go shoot my garage - then I can look at the audio track of the first strike and the paint - and see how much faster the first strike was going at impact.


Do you have a copy of Goldwave? If not, there is a free download of it. That should give you a highly accurate way of measuring the time between fire and strike.. I might be tempted to put the mic (camera) near the target so you can get the bang of the gun and thwack of the round on target.

And these are two completley different modes of operation here. They can't be compared by the same method of time-to target.

Edited by Jack Wood, 15 February 2009 - 11:30 AM.

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#24 brycelarson

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Posted 15 February 2009 - 11:40 AM

Do you have a copy of Goldwave? If not, there is a free download of it. That should give you a highly accurate way of measuring the time between fire and strike.. I might be tempted to put the mic (camera) near the target so you can get the bang of the gun and thwack of the round on target.

And these are two completley different modes of operation here. They can't be compared by the same method of time-to target.


If I do it I'll set the rig up to match the shots that I got yesterday. I suppose if I get really crazy I can even account for the speed of sound at 30 deg. F to shorten the time to target.

I've got plenty of audio editing software - I work in theatre and live event production - I spend way too much time in front of my computer with my headphones on.

and yes, trying to draw parallels between these rounds and backspin is a dangerous thing. These rounds are obviously a superior projectile to a ball - regardless of what you do to that ball as you fire it. There's a very good reason that bullets gained the shape they did - and rifled barrels took over from smooth-bore guns shooting balls. They just work better.

The real question with these rounds - as CockerPunk said in his video - isn't if they really work - it's how they'll be used and allowed in games.

I'm one of those guys that after 10+ years playing paintball has a really good sense of when they other guys can actually hit me. I had to re-adjust a bit when the flatline came out - but not too much since they're going so slow at range. I'll be the guy standing in the open just outside of reliable shooting range in a game yelling at the other team - because it's fun. Mix in two guys on that other team hauling Tiberius guns and I'll have to start to re-think that.

I dunno if they'll catch on and the FPO thing is going to be a big stumbling block - but they're certainly fun to shoot. :)

#25 Crome

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Posted 15 February 2009 - 11:45 AM

a little off topic but I watched the vid that CP just did on his opinion on these and he said they are plastic? how is that going to work out in the woods? gelatin breaks down over time and after a while is completely absorbed into the woods, these will be laying around in little fragments for who knows how long... I think they are going to find resistance from land owners if they cant find a solution to that.... or maybe Im way off base here

anyone have an opinion on that?

#26 brycelarson

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Posted 15 February 2009 - 11:53 AM

they're UV / biodegradable plastic. Dunno how long they're going to last - but they will break down.

#27 jb512

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Posted 15 February 2009 - 03:45 PM

Can someone link to a dual chrono test on regular paintballs? I would like to see the numbers on that.

#28 csskiller

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Posted 15 February 2009 - 05:52 PM

Cockerpunk, I'm just wondering, it being 30 ish degrees where you are (that's WARM! :P) Do you think that there could be some contraction of the barrel due to the temperature?

I'm not sure what the magnitude of the contraction would be though.

I'm just saying this as you were testing the bore of the paintballs.

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#29 cockerpunk

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Posted 15 February 2009 - 06:07 PM

Cockerpunk, I'm just wondering, it being 30 ish degrees where you are (that's WARM! :P) Do you think that there could be some contraction of the barrel due to the temperature?

I'm not sure what the magnitude of the contraction would be though.

I'm just saying this as you were testing the bore of the paintballs.


well that was bryce doing the outdoor test ... but ...

thermal coefficient of aluminum is .000012 in/in*f so no, there really isn't a huge thermal shrink going on there. .685(.000012)(72-30) = .0003 inches.

and he wasn't testing the bore of the barrel or anything, just comparing accuracy.
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#30 themonkman

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Posted 15 February 2009 - 06:24 PM

Just a non-technical comment: I would be very surprised if field owners that have FPO rules disallowed them for use. People who use these rounds aren't going to be using a lot of them due to the price and the projected profit margin loss from allowing their use would be so negligible that it wouldn't be worth pissing off players by banning their use on FPO fields.

I'm sure scenario producers that only allow event paint would not care much.
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#31 jb512

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Posted 15 February 2009 - 07:08 PM

the FPO solution is fields will start selling this.

I dont really see this becoming a primarily used round, just a "sniper round" if it is living up to Mike has said

#32 csskiller

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Posted 15 February 2009 - 08:13 PM

Cockerpunk, I'm just wondering, it being 30 ish degrees where you are (that's WARM! :P ) Do you think that there could be some contraction of the barrel due to the temperature?

I'm not sure what the magnitude of the contraction would be though.

I'm just saying this as you were testing the bore of the paintballs.


well that was bryce doing the outdoor test ... but ...

thermal coefficient of aluminum is .000012 in/in*f so no, there really isn't a huge thermal shrink going on there. .685(.000012)(72-30) = .0003 inches.

and he wasn't testing the bore of the barrel or anything, just comparing accuracy.

Sorry, I confuse the two of you a lot.. :P

But yeah, I didn't have a table nearby, but I guessed it would have been very small

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#33 cockerpunk

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Posted 15 February 2009 - 09:03 PM

Cockerpunk, I'm just wondering, it being 30 ish degrees where you are (that's WARM! :P ) Do you think that there could be some contraction of the barrel due to the temperature?

I'm not sure what the magnitude of the contraction would be though.

I'm just saying this as you were testing the bore of the paintballs.


well that was bryce doing the outdoor test ... but ...

thermal coefficient of aluminum is .000012 in/in*f so no, there really isn't a huge thermal shrink going on there. .685(.000012)(72-30) = .0003 inches.

and he wasn't testing the bore of the barrel or anything, just comparing accuracy.

Sorry, I confuse the two of you a lot.. :P

But yeah, I didn't have a table nearby, but I guessed it would have been very small


last summer my internship was about super high tolerances boring and other machining. were talking hitting .000005 targets with machining operations. so i practically have all the thermal coefficients memorized.
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#34 jb512

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Posted 15 February 2009 - 10:09 PM

Anyone think tiberius do anything special at phoenix as in start selling them or something of that nature?

#35 vijil

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Posted 16 February 2009 - 01:01 AM

There are so many tests that could be done with this... suddenly I'm wishing I had a wind tunnel.

In any case it seems clear that these have less drag than a regular ball.

I wonder if the comparative results change much at 100 feet, or 150 feet... also wondering whether it would be possible to demonstrate that it's less affected by wind.
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#36 cockerpunk

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Posted 16 February 2009 - 01:06 AM

There are so many tests that could be done with this... suddenly I'm wishing I had a wind tunnel.

In any case it seems clear that these have less drag than a regular ball.

I wonder if the comparative results change much at 100 feet, or 150 feet... also wondering whether it would be possible to demonstrate that it's less affected by wind.


its pretty safe to say that we arn't done testing these bad boys. ;)
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#37 Jack Wood

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Posted 16 February 2009 - 06:06 AM

Gordon, what are your thoughts now on going back and looking at backspin bolts at longer ranges? Considering that at 75 foot the FS round yielded almost identical longituninal gains as the backsping bolts which you condemned as "statistically insignificant"?

Edited by Jack Wood, 16 February 2009 - 06:07 AM.

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#38 Spitlebug

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Posted 16 February 2009 - 07:16 AM

Bryce, how does your coordinate system work? I assume that 0,0 is dead center and positive X values go to the right, negative X values to the left. The same with positive Y values being up and negative values being down? Is this just an assumed coordinate system and what is the unit of measure (inches)?

I think these are important if one wanted to plot out each trajectory. Looking at these in a three dimensional view may also be important factors considering that the Tiberius paintballs may fly in a different manner than a conventional paintball.

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#39 Troy

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Posted 16 February 2009 - 09:18 AM

I'm one of those guys that after 10+ years playing paintball has a really good sense of when they other guys can actually hit me. I had to re-adjust a bit when the flatline came out - but not too much since they're going so slow at range. I'll be the guy standing in the open just outside of reliable shooting range in a game yelling at the other team - because it's fun. Mix in two guys on that other team hauling Tiberius guns and I'll have to start to re-think that.


My thoughts exactly. I've found one of the best ways to inspire enough confidence in bunch of new players is to be bold and stand out in the open so they can see it CAN be done.

I count one of my finest moments jumping out into the open and creating a skirmish line that squashed an enemy charge into our position at the D-Day field. They had to go straight through MY valley, and I was damned sure that I wasn't going to let that happen.
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#40 Snipez4664

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Posted 16 February 2009 - 11:44 AM

Gordon, what are your thoughts now on going back and looking at backspin bolts at longer ranges? Considering that at 75 foot the FS round yielded almost identical longituninal gains as the backsping bolts which you condemned as "statistically insignificant"?


I'd also like to see that compared to the "trajectory calculator"...the backspin doesn't tend to affect drop too much until later in flight.

I believe they'll be revisiting that with the alien test, though.
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#41 cockerpunk

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Posted 16 February 2009 - 11:48 AM

yeah we have some backspin stuff lined up at longer ranges. im not really seeing a connection between this and that though ...

Edited by cockerpunk, 16 February 2009 - 11:49 AM.

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And yes, Gordon is the sexiest manifestation of "to the front."


#42 wgp2002

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Posted 16 February 2009 - 11:57 AM

i know you looked at bolts a while back but would a venturi vs other style bolts have a different effect on these? and would a rifled barrel work better for these?
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#43 brycelarson

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Posted 16 February 2009 - 12:46 PM

I'm going to say that the bolt isn't going to matter - you're basically blowing into a cup - there's already a large pocket in front of the bolt when the air comes out - so I can't imagine open v venturi really mattering.

As for rifled barrels - there's really no point. I suppose a barrel with the same twist in the same direction may work - but anything else is just going to interfere with the spin that's designed to start up when the round leaves the barrel.

#44 GrenadeMaster

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Posted 16 February 2009 - 04:04 PM

I'm one of those guys that after 10+ years playing paintball has a really good sense of when they other guys can actually hit me. I had to re-adjust a bit when the flatline came out - but not too much since they're going so slow at range. I'll be the guy standing in the open just outside of reliable shooting range in a game yelling at the other team - because it's fun. Mix in two guys on that other team hauling Tiberius guns and I'll have to start to re-think that.


Hehe... I do that too, except I find it fun to sing really obnoxious songs... such as the barney song... I also try to get just close enough I can catch them every now and then, then just pop in my feed tube on the phantom and return fire! I have also learned to hate evil... as it is very hard to catch intact.

But I only have 6 years of experience... :angry:
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#45 cockerpunk

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Posted 16 February 2009 - 04:18 PM

i know you looked at bolts a while back but would a venturi vs other style bolts have a different effect on these? and would a rifled barrel work better for these?


there is alot of talk about rifled barrels and these, and i have been waiting until we can get the highspeed going on these because i wonder alot.

in mind mind, the fins dont cause the spin while the paintball is IN the barrel.

the fins impart there spin when the ball is flying through the ambient air.

now, i want to get the highspeed to confirm that, but that is what i think.
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#46 licustoms

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Posted 16 February 2009 - 10:01 PM

While using Tiberius First Strike rounds:

.....Will they work with a rifled barrel?
.....Which direction do the fins turn in? (Right or Left)
.....What angle are the fins cut at?
.....What angle and direction are most rifled barrels grooves? (for paintball)
.....Will the rounds work better with a rifled barrel?
.....Has a rifled barrel been tested with the rounds?
.....Does a smooth bore barrel work better with the rounds?
.....What sized barrel bore work best with the rounds?

Just a few questions to add to your tests if at all possible. :)

One other thing that I was wondering about is how do the magazines work with these rounds and which magazines work with them as I may end up making a bolt action magazine fed cocker to work with the rounds - just for fun.

I am new to the PunkWorks section of the TechPB Forums however I am interested in contributing to this section as must as possible. If you guys need anything to which I may be able to help with just let me know (you guys = CockerPunk & BryceLarson)

#47 licustoms

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Posted 16 February 2009 - 10:13 PM

i know you looked at bolts a while back but would a venturi vs other style bolts have a different effect on these? and would a rifled barrel work better for these?


there is alot of talk about rifled barrels and these, and i have been waiting until we can get the highspeed going on these because i wonder alot.

in mind mind, the fins dont cause the spin while the paintball is IN the barrel.

the fins impart there spin when the ball is flying through the ambient air.

now, i want to get the highspeed to confirm that, but that is what i think.


I predict that if the Tiberius First Strike rounds do spin in the barrel that it is because there is just enough space within the barrel to allow the movement in a spiraling motion. However, I have not seen the rounds in person yet so I do not know for sure if the rounds' fins have an angle on them or if they are straight in line with the flight path. If they are straight then I predict no spin in the barrel and if they are angled then there might be a slight spin signature within the barrel if there is enough space around the round within the barrel to allow it (I would think that it depends on how much pressure or squeeze there is on the round from the barrel.)

Otherwise there would only be spin once the round exits the barrel and again if the rounds' fins are angled there would be spin once in the air otherwise if they are straight there would be spin due to ambient temperature (such as warm air rising from the ground and cool air dropping from the air) as well as any trace of wind.

As far as magazine design goes for these rounds - there are real examples of other firearms (lethal sorts) that have magazines that the Q-loader resembles that I believe would work great for these if there were only small modifications done to them as well as to the breach of any paintball marker... just some other thoughts that came to my mind.

#48 Toriphilewill

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Posted 16 February 2009 - 11:14 PM

I'm one of those guys that after 10+ years playing paintball has a really good sense of when they other guys can actually hit me. I had to re-adjust a bit when the flatline came out - but not too much since they're going so slow at range. I'll be the guy standing in the open just outside of reliable shooting range in a game yelling at the other team - because it's fun. Mix in two guys on that other team hauling Tiberius guns and I'll have to start to re-think that.


Hehe... I do that too, except I find it fun to sing really obnoxious songs... such as the barney song... I also try to get just close enough I can catch them every now and then, then just pop in my feed tube on the phantom and return fire! I have also learned to hate evil... as it is very hard to catch intact.

But I only have 6 years of experience... :angry:


I like picking up those rounds that happen to fall at my feet, and try to return them to their owner.

#49 Jack Wood

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Posted 17 February 2009 - 05:03 AM

Gordon, what are your thoughts now on going back and looking at backspin bolts at longer ranges? Considering that at 75 foot the FS round yielded almost identical longituninal gains as the backsping bolts which you condemned as "statistically insignificant"?



yeah we have some backspin stuff lined up at longer ranges. im not really seeing a connection between this and that though ...


The connection is that you openly dismissed backspin bolts as not making a significant difference at 75 foot to added range. Yet here we are looking at the FS round that displayed the same statistical difference of Y-axis strike-point on the target at 75 foot with a round that is claimed to shoot 50% (or something) further and we're jumping all over it.

I just think it would be doing the backspin sytems a real injustice to not have the opportunity to be tested in the same way as the FS rounds.
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#50 StandingCow

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Posted 17 February 2009 - 07:17 AM

I think the more distant the target the more these new rounds will shine. They are a good first step toward better accuracy. since markers have reached their limit.

Edited by StandingCow, 17 February 2009 - 10:01 AM.

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