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#1 tubberthump

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Posted 08 January 2012 - 02:41 PM

So I was wondering, is the Etha an inline poppet or a spool valve.

#2 Bauzer

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Posted 08 January 2012 - 02:48 PM

spoolie but they call it a poppet

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#3 OEFVeteran

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Posted 08 January 2012 - 02:57 PM

its not a spoolie... its got a spool like bolt.... but it has a pressure controlled poppet the fires the ball... in a spool valve, the bolt is the valve.... in a poppet, the bolt and valve are different, but still work in tandem...

the way the etha works is the bolt moves forward, once it hits a certain point, the poppet gets pushed backwards, and releases the dump chamber to fire the ball...
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#4 andrewthewookie

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Posted 08 January 2012 - 03:01 PM

the way the etha works is the bolt moves forward, once it hits a certain point, the poppet gets pushed backwards, and releases the dump chamber to fire the ball...

It's actually the other way around. The solenoid moves the central poppet back, which opens the dump chamber to the bolt. It's the dump chamber pressure that starts moving the bolt forwards.

Posted Image

That said, even though the dump chamber valve is separate from the bolt, it still seals like a spool. There's no face seal like a poppet, it's just a shorter, quick acting separate spool valve. However, because of it's quick acting nature, I'm willing to let it slide and go with PE's nomenclature.

Edited by andrewthewookie, 08 January 2012 - 03:03 PM.

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#5 cockerpunk

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Posted 08 January 2012 - 03:29 PM

its and increasing force Pressure controlled poppet.
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#6 Cookybiscuit

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Posted 08 January 2012 - 04:43 PM

its and increasing force Pressure controlled poppet.

Thats inconvenient.

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#7 brycelarson

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Posted 08 January 2012 - 06:07 PM


its and increasing force Pressure controlled poppet.

Thats inconvenient.


Which is exactly why they went with a slightly less accurate but much easier label.

#8 Schuppert3

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Posted 08 January 2012 - 07:31 PM

Im just going with what PE says. Pull poppet spool

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#9 98Pro

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Posted 08 January 2012 - 09:44 PM

lIt;s a spool seal since it has an axial seal and not a face seal.

#10 Snipez4664

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Posted 08 January 2012 - 10:36 PM

maybe we should realize that labeling guns according to outmoded conventions is silly and just evaluate guns on their individual merits
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#11 OEFVeteran

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Posted 08 January 2012 - 10:46 PM

lIt;s a spool seal since it has an axial seal and not a face seal.


that would make the victory a spool then as well, as the SC'd PE engine doenst have an traditional poppet, but a sealing oring and a donut....

the etha is a push spool pull poppet... its just not a conventional poppet...

Edited by OEFVeteran, 08 January 2012 - 10:49 PM.

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#12 Troy

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Posted 09 January 2012 - 08:16 AM

maybe we should realize that labeling guns according to outmoded conventions is silly and just evaluate guns on their individual merits


Lurker has spoken /disscusion... :rolleyes:

But yeah, I agree. The new Dye NT is problematic as well.

This isn't going to happen, because "Spool" and "Poppet" are two easy groups that the gross majority of markers fall into. I imagine, that perceived shot feel and maintenance will delineate the major groups in the future as they begin to get more and more muddled which will create two, practical, working groups. As my middle school geography teacher said (and was subsequently proven correct by my further studies in plant tax in college) "mankind loves to label stuff, even if the label is wrong."
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#13 Troy11

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Posted 09 January 2012 - 07:20 PM


maybe we should realize that labeling guns according to outmoded conventions is silly and just evaluate guns on their individual merits


Lurker has spoken /disscusion... :rolleyes:

But yeah, I agree. The new Dye NT is problematic as well.

This isn't going to happen, because "Spool" and "Poppet" are two easy groups that the gross majority of markers fall into. I imagine, that perceived shot feel and maintenance will delineate the major groups in the future as they begin to get more and more muddled which will create two, practical, working groups. As my middle school geography teacher said (and was subsequently proven correct by my further studies in plant tax in college) "mankind loves to label stuff, even if the label is wrong."


unrelated: i have never seen you on the forum before.......awkward

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#14 misterkyle

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Posted 09 January 2012 - 10:12 PM

IMO i still think its a spool. they way i figure is that air has to go through a poppet valve on a mag to fire, same with a etha

#15 Troy

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Posted 09 January 2012 - 10:48 PM

unrelated: i have never seen you on the forum before.......awkward


Not surprising, because this is the only forum I post in, and the only one that interests me. But yes, I am the ORIGINAL Troy.
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#16 THEJIMSTERNESS

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Posted 10 January 2012 - 06:09 AM

think a mini with a giant poppet

#17 Riv

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Posted 10 January 2012 - 02:57 PM

My whole understanding on what a spoolie and poppet is has been destroyed... is there a thread somewhere that can define the concepts?

What is this... increasing force pressure controlled poppet? o.o;

#18 sticktodrum

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Posted 10 January 2012 - 03:01 PM

Pfffff, you're all wrong.

It's a pull spool poppet push side pull wank spool pool with half-loop stitch on China silk.

DUH!
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#19 pbkid74

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Posted 10 January 2012 - 05:24 PM

Lol^ this guy cracks me up
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#20 drg

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Posted 10 January 2012 - 06:21 PM

maybe we should realize that labeling guns according to outmoded conventions is silly and just evaluate guns on their individual merits


Except the terminology "poppet" and "spool" refer to valve structures and they have fairly distinct definitions which are not outmoded. Unless I'm missing something, I see no poppet structure in the firing valving of this marker at all; the structures all look like pretty much classic spools.

Edited by drg, 10 January 2012 - 06:25 PM.

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#21 brycelarson

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Posted 10 January 2012 - 06:27 PM

Pfffff, you're all wrong.

It's a pull spool poppet push side pull wank spool pool with half-loop stitch on China silk.

DUH!


YOU'RE a pull spool poppet push side pull wank spool pool with half-loop stitch on China silk.

but yeah, the accuracy of the poppet / spool categories really starts to fly out the window when designers get creative.

#22 andrewthewookie

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Posted 10 January 2012 - 06:43 PM

What is this... increasing force pressure controlled poppet? o.o;

It means that pressure is increased to one side of the poppet to get it to open. In a traditional stacked tube gun, the poppet is opened by the force of a rammer, in the Etha, it's opened by the force of air.

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#23 PB2011

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Posted 10 January 2012 - 09:46 PM

Fuck it. It's a spoppit.
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#24 -ORaNGe-

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Posted 11 January 2012 - 03:47 AM

Fuck it. It's a spoppit.


I prefer Poople

#25 sticktodrum

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Posted 11 January 2012 - 12:53 PM


Pfffff, you're all wrong.

It's a pull spool poppet push side pull wank spool pool with half-loop stitch on China silk.

DUH!


YOU'RE a pull spool poppet push side pull wank spool pool with half-loop stitch on China silk.

but yeah, the accuracy of the poppet / spool categories really starts to fly out the window when designers get creative.


Hah! It was a trick! You can't use a half-loop stitch on China silk, it'll pucker! BOOM!


I like Poople, but would be more comfortable with Google. It's a Google valve, which means it does everything.
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#26 Dave1234

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Posted 13 January 2012 - 01:17 AM

^ thats called winning

#27 lovebunny

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Posted 13 January 2012 - 06:37 PM


What is this... increasing force pressure controlled poppet? o.o;

It means that pressure is increased to one side of the poppet to get it to open. In a traditional stacked tube gun, the poppet is opened by the force of a rammer, in the Etha, it's opened by the force of air.





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#28 andrewthewookie

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Posted 13 January 2012 - 06:41 PM

Actually, it moves far less than a traditional poppet rammer, and does not hit anything with any significant force, so the kick comes from some other aspect of the engine. Not to mention it moves in the opposite direction of the bolt, so, if anything, it should cancel out some of the movement form the bolt.

Edited by andrewthewookie, 13 January 2012 - 06:42 PM.

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#29 Danny D

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Posted 13 January 2012 - 07:23 PM

Thanks for the animation wookie.

Wow, so pe basically stole the design for the legion shocker.

#30 y0da900

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Posted 13 January 2012 - 09:00 PM

It's more like a Phenom than a Legion Shocker - but the firing piston is effectively the same design in a Phenom, Legion Shocker, Nova, and several other variations.

#31 Troy

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Posted 14 January 2012 - 09:36 AM

Please allow me to ask a stupid question...

In this diagram it looks like the valve that everyone is calling a poppet moves and acts a lot like what I would call a spool valve. I thought poppets sealed against a hard face using compression against said face and spool valves slid open and closed. SO, why do you guys call that valve a poppet instead of a spool?
Posted Image

Edited by Troy, 14 January 2012 - 09:41 AM.

\m/

#32 y0da900

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Posted 14 January 2012 - 10:42 AM

Short throw, rapid valve opening, full removal of seal from sealing member. It's all semantics.

#33 andrewthewookie

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Posted 14 January 2012 - 12:28 PM

It's one of those things where it's got characteristics of both, so if it gets classified as a poppet, that's fine. I'm still calling it a spool inside my head though.

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#34 brycelarson

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Posted 14 January 2012 - 12:32 PM

It's one of those things where it's got characteristics of both, so if it gets classified as a poppet, that's fine. I'm still calling it a spool inside my head though.


PE doesn't really care what it's called. They picked a name because they needed something to call it. Jack even asked for suggestions in the first thread about it here:

http://www.techpb.co...1

here's a relavent quote from Jack Wood:

"It's NOT being marketed as a poppet. The wording is "Pull Poppet Spool". Not a knock open poppet. Not an inline poppet. A Pull Poppet spool. We were trying to come up with a description that covers a spool moving over a very short/small distance to open the dump chamber. Traditionally poppet guns have there valve operate over a significantly shorter distance than a "spool valve gun" where the spool valve mech actually operates over the 1" stroke of the bolt. In traditional spool valve guns the valve mechanism is directly connected to and works in conjunction with the bolt. The dump chamber seal acts on, in or over the actual bolt. The "spool" in an Etha (pronounced with an ee sound) is seperate from the bolt, operates in the opposite direction to the bolt, and has a stroke that is fractions of the bolt stroke.

People are getting themselves tied in knots over this face seal v radial seal business that they can't see that it is the current nomenclature for seperating gun types that is buggered to start with here. "

Edited by brycelarson, 14 January 2012 - 12:36 PM.


#35 EgoPossum

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Posted 14 January 2012 - 12:42 PM

Yea looking at the diagram I see the legion shocker and Phenom.
It is a great design and I have to give PE credit, for the money it is a great shooter.
Should be easy for the techs to diagnose problems with the markers
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#36 Troy

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Posted 15 January 2012 - 09:33 AM

Short throw, rapid valve opening, full removal of seal from sealing member. It's all semantics.


Fair enough... it's good to know I'm not a total retard.
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#37 drg

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Posted 15 January 2012 - 10:43 PM

Please allow me to ask a stupid question...

In this diagram it looks like the valve that everyone is calling a poppet moves and acts a lot like what I would call a spool valve. I thought poppets sealed against a hard face using compression against said face and spool valves slid open and closed. SO, why do you guys call that valve a poppet instead of a spool?


Because language imprecision is rampant here. There is no poppet in that design as far as I can see, that is a classic paintball spool valve.
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#38 cockerpunk

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Posted 15 January 2012 - 10:52 PM

http://www.zdspb.com...c/anim_pcp.html

works extremely similar to all these guns. esp the legion shocker.

Edited by cockerpunk, 15 January 2012 - 10:56 PM.

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#39 drg

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Posted 16 January 2012 - 02:41 AM

What's even more interesting is that the Nova was marketed as a spool valve marker.
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#40 xincognitopbx

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Posted 16 January 2012 - 03:15 AM

i would call it a creative poppet. In spools the bolt is the valve, the etha clearly has a poppet. So it shouldn't matter how it seals, it has a poppet 'stick' thingy in there that releases the dump chamber instead of using the bolt.

increasing force pressure controlled poppet seems accurate

But the Ego 11 is shiny. :(

Dosent the Ego 11 only come in dust colours?

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#41 Troy

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Posted 16 January 2012 - 08:02 AM


Please allow me to ask a stupid question...

In this diagram it looks like the valve that everyone is calling a poppet moves and acts a lot like what I would call a spool valve. I thought poppets sealed against a hard face using compression against said face and spool valves slid open and closed. SO, why do you guys call that valve a poppet instead of a spool?


Because language imprecision is rampant here. There is no poppet in that design as far as I can see, that is a classic paintball spool valve.


We are starting to tread pretty heavily on my home turf now (at least my area of training, taxonomy is a long ways away from computer programming). What we have here is a, classic problem of natural kinds. The real problem is how much of a subjective weight we put on which specific attributes of the valve to determine it's kind. Anytime you create a definition, if it's too broad, it's not useful, if it's too narrow, it's not useful either. No matter what the criteria is, the underlining flaw in a definition is that it's based in some kind of subjective quality assessment (unless you are a Platonist though, and you think the perfect spool valve is running around in the realm of forms).

My specialization is in plant taxonomy, which is, pretty much, the oldest science around. We were classifying plants into groups before we had language. The kicker is, that it's barely a science at all. Plant groups are divided into groups on pretty much purely subjective differences (classifying things genetically is not an answer btw, I'm not going to go into that, so I don't derail the thread).

When I first got into an immunology lab (believe it or not plant tax isn't, exactly, one of those "in demand" job fields, and I had a bio-chem degree after all...), the primary investigator explained the purpose of his research, what he was doing, and his goals in pure metaphor. I responded "I don't like to talk in metaphors" he said "well then, I can't talk to you about science."

The point of this long rant is that whenever you are doing something cool and "scientific," you need to man up and rise to the challenge. Not everything is precise, not everything is black and white... IN FACT, in my experience, if you are doing something cool, you're working in shades of grey.

Btw, I'm going to call this a spool as well, for more pragmatic reasons rather than operational reasons. It uses grease instead of oil... it's a spool :D

Edited by Troy, 16 January 2012 - 08:08 AM.

\m/

#42 brycelarson

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Posted 16 January 2012 - 10:41 AM

Btw, I'm going to call this a spool as well, for more pragmatic reasons rather than operational reasons. It uses grease instead of oil... it's a spool :D


I think you actually won me over with this one. :) That's fantastic.

But to the point - you're exactly correct. The "standard" definition of a spool is that the bolt and the valve are the same thing - and they have a long throw. The "standard" poppet normally has a face seal and a valve with some sort of mushroom or tapered shape, has a very short throw and is fast acting. This gun has a small short throw valve with a larger end that operates the longer throw bolt/valve. It has no face seals. The designer chose to call it a "Pull Poppet Spool" indicating that at least some of its function is as a spool - the part that seems to make so many people so crabby is that "Pull Poppet" part - and I understand that. However, using the current gun classification nomenclature - it makes complete sense that they would want to reference the poppet in order to communicate the short throw fast acting valve part of their gun. Jack could have called it a "reverse moving small spool with a larger end that moves a short distance quickly to actuate the other spool valve system" but obviously that's silly. It's also silly to ask PE to label it simply a spool - since it's action is significantly different than other classic spool valve designs - including their own.

drg or anyone else - if you have a better name, post it up. Jack was open to suggestions but no one could come up with a better answer than he already had. It needs to be short, concise and explanatory to the general paintball audience. From the categorization they chose - it also needs to indicate that the control valve is quick acting. We can all bitch about things - but at some point suggesting a solution is more likely to put in a position of authority.

Just out of curiosity - what type of valve is the on/off on a mag? I know the design is somewhat different than this, but in it's place in the guns operation it seems the most analogous.

#43 cockerpunk

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Posted 16 January 2012 - 11:12 AM

its pretty obvious to me using zdspb definitions that it is an increasing force pressure controlled poppit. it adds force to one side to trigger the valve, unlike a system like the mini which increases force on one side, while reducing the force on the other side. the mini is not even argued to be a spool, and the nature of the seal (face or radial) is trivial because either gun could use either method of sealing. just this gun only adds force, unlike the mini which does both.

its an increasing prove pressure controlled poppit. nothing magical or mysterious about it.
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#44 UV Halo

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Posted 16 January 2012 - 01:26 PM

There are two major challenges we're facing here if we use ZDSPB's classification guide. It may be the best reference guide out there but, that doesn't mean it's flawless. The author even goes so far as to say: "It's not a perfect system, it's not perfectly organized, and there are exceptions. Just keep it in mind"

The specific problems we face stem from the beginning of the definitions, under "markers with no hammers" section, it says:

In paintball terms, a poppet is a valve that uses a face seal to hold pressure back. The poppet is lifted away and air is thusly released (hammer/valve markers use poppets). Spool-based markers use axial o-rings or seals to contain pressure, whereby the release occurs when a moving part shifts position to open a new air passage.

And then draws this conclusion:

Spool-based markers always involve the spool components shifting a large distance to fire, whereas poppet-based markers involve the poppet shifting only a short distance.


The guide also addes the following general consideration:

Personally, I think the means to fire the ball is primary, with the bolt movement secondary to it.


I could argue, by using just the introductory definitions (and not the conclusion), that it's actually an increasing force, dual-spool valve marker.

First Spool- central portion, which relies on axial seals. Opens, and closes the dump chamber for filling and venting.
Second Spool- Bolt portion, blow forward, spring Return.
Increasing Force- Central Portion driven forward, opening dump chamber. Bolt portion driven forward by air exiting the dump chamber.

Unfortunately this doesn't cover PE's concerns about "short throw poppets vs "long throw spools" but, it does accurately address the forces and mechanics involved here.

In any case, it's a brilliant design.

#45 Troy

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Posted 16 January 2012 - 01:29 PM

its pretty obvious


There's the magic phrase, *Devil's advocate mode on*

the mini is not even argued to be a spool, and the nature of the seal (face or radial) is trivial because either gun could use either method of sealing. just this gun only adds force, unlike the mini which does both.


The mini isn't considered to be anything other than a poppet because it has a face seal... so I don't see the relevance here. It COULD be made into a spool in a similar manner, does that make it a spool?

While you may be correct in the fact that they ARE operationally interchangeable, the fact remains the seal IS radial. Just because it COULD have a face seal, in no ways implies that it's the same valve type as a valve that HAS a face seal. Because radial seals, don't seal as well as a poppet's seal, it changes the way those seals need to be maintained, so I think there is more utility in calling it a spool, then there is in calling it a poppet.

I really don't want to have this same conversation every time some kid asks what lube they should use in their marker.... which is where we're headed. I can see it now "what should I use to lube my marker?" Answer, "well if it's a poppit, you use oil, except if you have an etha."

I'm not going to be really dogmatic about this, but I think that if you are going to say that it's, trivially, a poppet, I think you may be fooling yourself... that and I have a deep aversion to anyone saying that anything is "clear" or "obvious," rarely are things either. I will automatically pick apart anyone's argument that uses such phrases. It's a natural impulse, I can't help it.

I could argue, by using just the introductory definitions (and not the conclusion), that it's actually an increasing force, dual-spool valve marker.


Halo hit my impression of how the valve operates right on the head. This isn't the only dual spool running around... The omega has a spool valve that has a shorter throw than the total length the bolt moves.

Edited by Troy, 16 January 2012 - 01:37 PM.

\m/

#46 xincognitopbx

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Posted 16 January 2012 - 01:33 PM

I really don't want to have this same conversation every time some kid asks what lube they should use in their marker.... which is where we're headed. I can see it now "what should I use to lube my marker?" Answer, "well if it's a poppit, you use oil, except if you have an etha."


That answer has already been broken with marqs....they take dow 55 and I consider them inline poppets

Edited by xincognitopbx, 16 January 2012 - 01:34 PM.

But the Ego 11 is shiny. :(

Dosent the Ego 11 only come in dust colours?

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#47 drg

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Posted 16 January 2012 - 03:52 PM

Considering throw length as part of a "definition" of spool vs poppet is nonsense IMO. I really keep going back to the definition of the valves themselves. I think the radial seal makes it a spool. I mean that's why it's called a spool, the valve looks like a spool. Generally the firing portion of the valve takes precedence over the operational portion of the valve in the classification.

BTW if we are going to give credence to what the manufacturer calls the valving, why do we ignore that the Nova's manufacturer explicitly called it a spool?

The lube thing, I know was facetious, but also doesn't hold up with mQ valves. And ZDSPB's classifications are not gospel since it classifies mags as spool valves, when they are not.
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#48 cockerpunk

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Posted 16 January 2012 - 04:00 PM


its pretty obvious


There's the magic phrase, *Devil's advocate mode on*

the mini is not even argued to be a spool, and the nature of the seal (face or radial) is trivial because either gun could use either method of sealing. just this gun only adds force, unlike the mini which does both.


The mini isn't considered to be anything other than a poppet because it has a face seal... so I don't see the relevance here. It COULD be made into a spool in a similar manner, does that make it a spool?

While you may be correct in the fact that they ARE operationally interchangeable, the fact remains the seal IS radial. Just because it COULD have a face seal, in no ways implies that it's the same valve type as a valve that HAS a face seal. Because radial seals, don't seal as well as a poppet's seal, it changes the way those seals need to be maintained, so I think there is more utility in calling it a spool, then there is in calling it a poppet.

I really don't want to have this same conversation every time some kid asks what lube they should use in their marker.... which is where we're headed. I can see it now "what should I use to lube my marker?" Answer, "well if it's a poppit, you use oil, except if you have an etha."

I'm not going to be really dogmatic about this, but I think that if you are going to say that it's, trivially, a poppet, I think you may be fooling yourself... that and I have a deep aversion to anyone saying that anything is "clear" or "obvious," rarely are things either. I will automatically pick apart anyone's argument that uses such phrases. It's a natural impulse, I can't help it.

I could argue, by using just the introductory definitions (and not the conclusion), that it's actually an increasing force, dual-spool valve marker.


Halo hit my impression of how the valve operates right on the head. This isn't the only dual spool running around... The omega has a spool valve that has a shorter throw than the total length the bolt moves.


well since is is functionally similar if it s face vs radial seal, then i see no point in judging a gun's method of operation by a functionally irrelevant feature.

also, you should be selecting your lube based on why kind of gun it is, not its type of operation. lots of poppets like grease, and you certainly can run spools with oil (done it many times in a pitch). most often you should simply read the manual and see what the company tells you, rather then grease for spools, oils for poppets. thats just a dumb rule.

i am just failing to see any reason to call it what it is - increasing force pressure controlled poppet. you can add blowforward to that description too.

Considering throw length as part of a "definition" of spool vs poppet is nonsense IMO. I really keep going back to the definition of the valves themselves. I think the radial seal makes it a spool. I mean that's why it's called a spool, the valve looks like a spool. Generally the firing portion of the valve takes precedence over the operational portion of the valve in the classification.

BTW if we are going to give credence to what the manufacturer calls the valving, why do we ignore that the Nova's manufacturer explicitly called it a spool?

The lube thing, I know was facetious, but also doesn't hold up with mQ valves. And ZDSPB's classifications are not gospel since it classifies mags as spool valves, when they are not.


the problem is, in guns like this, face vs radial seal makes little to no difference. you could make an etha work with a face seal, like the mini.

so judging a gun on a functionally interchangeable feature is pretty silly. might as well sort them by color.
The ultimate truth in paintball is that the interaction between the gun and the player is far and away the largest factor in accuracy, consistency, and reliability.

And yes, Gordon is the sexiest manifestation of "to the front."


#49 andrewthewookie

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Posted 16 January 2012 - 04:05 PM

I think I'm with Gordon on this one. Because the valve type the Etha uses could be either a radial or face seal and still function the same, it's important to look at the other aspects of the valve, like the short throw, and quick acting nature, which are found in poppet valves.

Edited by andrewthewookie, 16 January 2012 - 04:07 PM.

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#50 drg

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Posted 16 January 2012 - 04:26 PM

Okay saying functionally similar parts should not be classified differently based on design is one of the stupidest things I've ever seen said by a purportedly smart person. All paintball guns functionally launch a paintball at about 300 fps, should there be no distinction between them because they are functionally similar?

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