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#101 cockerpunk

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Posted 17 January 2012 - 04:41 PM

but the spool/poppet 'stick' if you will doesn't move. The legion shocker resembles the etha much better in my view


its also not attached to the bolt, and thus doesn't have to have a long throw, so the fact its a radial seal really makes no difference.
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#102 drg

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Posted 17 January 2012 - 04:52 PM

but the spool/poppet 'stick' if you will doesn't move. The legion shocker resembles the etha much better in my view


Which portion of the valve moves does not affect what kind of valve it is. There is no poppet structure on the Etha spool.
The legion shocker does resemble the Etha very closely, however note that the drawing is incorrect and it is supposed to have a POPPET valve between the power tube and the firing chamber. That's what makes it a pressure-controlled poppet, NOT the operation. "Pressure controlled" in many examples including the Legion Shocker is effectively a different way of saying "spool." So the poppet part has to refer to a poppet valve structure, because the actuation is via spool.

The real distinction is not between valve action and bolt action, but between valve actuation and valve (sealing) design.

its also not attached to the bolt, and thus doesn't have to have a long throw, so the fact its a radial seal really makes no difference.


Of course it makes a difference. It changes what type of valve it is for one thing, and it also changes the design requirements.

Edited by drg, 17 January 2012 - 05:06 PM.

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#103 xincognitopbx

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Posted 17 January 2012 - 05:14 PM

design requirements? elaborate

But the Ego 11 is shiny. :(

Dosent the Ego 11 only come in dust colours?

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#104 drg

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Posted 17 January 2012 - 05:27 PM

Might be outside the scope of this thread, but a spool needs some kind of means to locate it axially within its bore, while a poppet is self-locating in one direction. The forces on a poppet are also different.

Edited by drg, 17 January 2012 - 05:31 PM.

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#105 betasniper

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Posted 26 January 2012 - 02:41 PM

Typical Spools generally cannot utilize a face seal. Since this design had the ability to use a face seal instead of an oring, The firing piston is a pressure controlled poppet where as the actual bolt is a forward air spring returned spool (FASR). Lets look at another design, The Invert Mini or Axe, They are unarguably PCP's. They are also FASR bolts. If we made ONE change and swapped the face seal for an oring, The Mini or Axe would still be a Pressure Controlled Poppet. In this case, The seal type has made no difference in the operation of the marker (except maybe efficiency). Lets try to put a face seal on an Ion. Lets change out the ID oring for a face seal. With only this single change, The Traditional Spool Valve marker Will Not Function. As soon as the bolt moves forward, the dump chamber is venting. This design can be fixed but by that time you have a completely different marker. In Ethas case, swapping the face seal in favor of an oring doesn't affect the operation where as this same replacement in a traditional spool will cause the marker to cease functioning.

That said, It doesn't really matter to me what its called. Call it a Panda Bear for all I care.

I like it.
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#106 drg

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Posted 26 January 2012 - 04:43 PM

Typical Spools generally cannot utilize a face seal. Since this design had the ability to use a face seal instead of an oring, The firing piston is a pressure controlled poppet where as the actual bolt is a forward air spring returned spool (FASR). Lets look at another design, The Invert Mini or Axe, They are unarguably PCP's. They are also FASR bolts. If we made ONE change and swapped the face seal for an oring, The Mini or Axe would still be a Pressure Controlled Poppet. In this case, The seal type has made no difference in the operation of the marker (except maybe efficiency). Lets try to put a face seal on an Ion. Lets change out the ID oring for a face seal. With only this single change, The Traditional Spool Valve marker Will Not Function. As soon as the bolt moves forward, the dump chamber is venting. This design can be fixed but by that time you have a completely different marker. In Ethas case, swapping the face seal in favor of an oring doesn't affect the operation where as this same replacement in a traditional spool will cause the marker to cease functioning.

That said, It doesn't really matter to me what its called. Call it a Panda Bear for all I care.

I like it.


Not true, the ion could well have a poppet as long as the bolt was moved to a separate system. The actuation of the bolt has no bearing on the description of the firing valve.

Changing the seal on an axe or mini to a spool type would in fact make it no longer a pressure controlled poppet because there would be no poppet. You would not be able to simply swap that seal btw,you would have to redesign some parts to ensure axial location of the spool.
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#107 Jack Wood

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Posted 31 January 2012 - 05:09 AM


Typical Spools generally cannot utilize a face seal. Since this design had the ability to use a face seal instead of an oring, The firing piston is a pressure controlled poppet where as the actual bolt is a forward air spring returned spool (FASR). Lets look at another design, The Invert Mini or Axe, They are unarguably PCP's. They are also FASR bolts. If we made ONE change and swapped the face seal for an oring, The Mini or Axe would still be a Pressure Controlled Poppet. In this case, The seal type has made no difference in the operation of the marker (except maybe efficiency). Lets try to put a face seal on an Ion. Lets change out the ID oring for a face seal. With only this single change, The Traditional Spool Valve marker Will Not Function. As soon as the bolt moves forward, the dump chamber is venting. This design can be fixed but by that time you have a completely different marker. In Ethas case, swapping the face seal in favor of an oring doesn't affect the operation where as this same replacement in a traditional spool will cause the marker to cease functioning.

That said, It doesn't really matter to me what its called. Call it a Panda Bear for all I care.

I like it.


Not true, the ion could well have a poppet as long as the bolt was moved to a separate system. The actuation of the bolt has no bearing on the description of the firing valve.

Changing the seal on an axe or mini to a spool type would in fact make it no longer a pressure controlled poppet because there would be no poppet. You would not be able to simply swap that seal btw,you would have to redesign some parts to ensure axial location of the spool.


He said that you could have a poppet in a Ion if you seperated it from the bolt. And like he also said, it would then be a completely different gun. Just because it's in an Ion body doesn't make it an Ion.

You wouldn't need to change anything to ensure axial location. The front of the spool on the Etha is floating, just the same as the front of the spool would be on a Mini if you changed it to a radial seal.

Regarding your penultimate post, the balancing/drive forces on a poppet and a spool can be made to be the same.

How about we call it a pressure controlled valve. As Betasniper said, whether it has a radial or face seal is almost irrelevent when trying to describe the operation of the mechanism. It is more to do with what actuates the seal/valve rather than the actual construction of the seal interface itself.
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#108 Cable

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Posted 31 January 2012 - 06:19 AM

I don't care what it's called I just want to know how good it is. I haven't seen a lot of people using it but can't wait to get a hold of one.

Edited by Cable, 31 January 2012 - 06:22 AM.


#109 Troy

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Posted 31 January 2012 - 07:34 AM

How about we call it a pressure controlled valve. As Betasniper said, whether it has a radial or face seal is almost irrelevent when trying to describe the operation of the mechanism. It is more to do with what actuates the seal/valve rather than the actual construction of the seal interface itself.


We can't do that Jack... if we did, then we wouldn't be able to argue anymore.
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#110 Jack Wood

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Posted 31 January 2012 - 08:42 AM

Damn! I knew there was a reason.....<br>
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#111 H all day

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Posted 31 January 2012 - 09:19 AM

first after jack woods:)
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#112 Jack Wood

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Posted 31 January 2012 - 11:30 AM

It's Jack Wood, no "s"..... That, there can be no argument over.....<br>
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#113 xincognitopbx

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Posted 31 January 2012 - 02:53 PM

Who's this Jack Wood that thinks he works at Eclipse?

Anyways I'll be first after him now :P .

@Jack Wood, why don't you just recall all of them, and put a face seal in it with your amazing CS. (I expect to see a challenge accepted face when I return to this thread.)

Edit: Also you could call it pressure valve controlled so its acronym is PVC (pipe).

Edited by xincognitopbx, 31 January 2012 - 02:56 PM.

But the Ego 11 is shiny. :(

Dosent the Ego 11 only come in dust colours?

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#114 cockerpunk

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Posted 31 January 2012 - 03:02 PM

well, i follow the ZDSPB system because it seems to fit everything currently being done in guns, without having to make lots of little specific changes. according to that, its a pressure controlled poppet, increasing force. makes sense to me, is an easy description that doesnt need any modifyers or specific rules. only reason anyone is making a stink is because its a radial seal instead of face seal, but that has nothing to do with how th gun works in this case, and is thus irreverent. i mean we even have the designer of the gun in here saying its irrelevant, so you dont even have to take my word on it.

its an increasing force pressure controlled poppet.

pressure controlled valve is to general, as any spool system could be called the same thing.

Edited by cockerpunk, 31 January 2012 - 03:03 PM.

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#115 H all day

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Posted 31 January 2012 - 05:24 PM

It's Jack Wood, no "s"..... That, there can be no argument over.....<br>

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#116 drg

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Posted 01 February 2012 - 02:23 PM

He said that you could have a poppet in a Ion if you seperated it from the bolt. And like he also said, it would then be a completely different gun. Just because it's in an Ion body doesn't make it an Ion.


Whether or not it would be a completely different gun doesn't have anything to do with the description of the valve, does it? And what does "completely different gun" mean? If the bolt were separated in the first place as it is on this marker, then ostensibly you could have a hammer-driven poppet behind it and it would still be the "same" gun.

You wouldn't need to change anything to ensure axial location. The front of the spool on the Etha is floating, just the same as the front of the spool would be on a Mini if you changed it to a radial seal.


You don't need to because the Etha is already a spool. It has a locating stop at the back of the spool. If it were a poppet like the mini, changing to a radial seal would require changes to address seal location. If the Ego's poppet had a radial seal it would require design changes.

Regarding your penultimate post, the balancing/drive forces on a poppet and a spool can be made to be the same.


Can they? The sealing force on a poppet valve/occlusive seal is distinctly different from a spool/radial seal. The radial seal seals independently of the pressure acting on it; in a poppet valve that pressure makes the seal.

How about we call it a pressure controlled valve. As Betasniper said, whether it has a radial or face seal is almost irrelevent when trying to describe the operation of the mechanism. It is more to do with what actuates the seal/valve rather than the actual construction of the seal interface itself.


Well the point of distinct descriptions is to discriminate (in the scientific sense) between designs. As I noted earlier, "pressure controlled" in firing valve operation descriptions is pretty much effectively a way to say spool-controlled, so by nature the action of a pressure-controlled valve is that of a spool valve.

Please note that I have acknowledged that there is a difference in marketing but this forum's stated goal is FOR the attacking of marketing distortions, and calling the Etha a poppet in any way is frankly a marketing distortion. I'm pretty sure you know full well the Etha is a spool through and through and have stated as much in other threads.

Edited by drg, 02 February 2012 - 02:24 AM.

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#117 Troy

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Posted 01 February 2012 - 02:42 PM

It seems to me that the biggest point in favor of this marker being called a poppet, is that you can take out the spool valve out, and replace it with a poppet, therefore, it's a poppet based marker. That line of logic just seems silly to me... oh well. Taking the valve description out of the group of similarly functioning markers seems to be the right thing to do.
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#118 cockerpunk

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Posted 01 February 2012 - 02:56 PM

It seems to me that the biggest point in favor of this marker being called a poppet, is that you can take out the spool valve out, and replace it with a poppet, therefore, it's a poppet based marker. That line of logic just seems silly to me... oh well. Taking the valve description out of the group of similarly functioning markers seems to be the right thing to do.


pressure controlled poppet =/= poppet
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#119 drg

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Posted 02 February 2012 - 02:23 AM


It seems to me that the biggest point in favor of this marker being called a poppet, is that you can take out the spool valve out, and replace it with a poppet, therefore, it's a poppet based marker. That line of logic just seems silly to me... oh well. Taking the valve description out of the group of similarly functioning markers seems to be the right thing to do.


pressure controlled poppet =/= poppet


:blink:
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#120 Jack Wood

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Posted 02 February 2012 - 01:07 PM

He said that you could have a poppet in a Ion if you seperated it from the bolt. And like he also said, it would then be a completely different gun. Just because it's in an Ion body doesn't make it an Ion.



Whether or not it would be a completely different gun doesn't have anything to do with the description of the valve, does it? And what does "completely different gun" mean? If the bolt were separated in the first place as it is on this marker, then ostensibly you could have a hammer-driven poppet behind it and it would still be the "same" gun.



I'm not quite sure whether you are being serious here. You are here arguing the semantics of a radial seal v face seal in the context of a system/application that most think the difference irrelevent, and yet you say that disconnecting the valve from the bolt or switching between a hammer-driven poppet and pressure controlled valve doesn't ostensibly alter the function of a gun? Which is it? Surely if you change the way the internals of a gun fundementally function then you change the gun itself? To a "different" type of gun.

You wouldn't need to change anything to ensure axial location. The front of the spool on the Etha is floating, just the same as the front of the spool would be on a Mini if you changed it to a radial seal.



You don't need to because the Etha is already a spool. It has a locating stop at the back of the spool. If it were a poppet like the mini, changing to a radial seal would require changes to address seal location. If the Ego's poppet had a radial seal it would require design changes.



Sorry, you are correct. I thought you were refering to axial alignment of the spool and body. It would be very easy to create a solid stop for a modified Mini spool.

Regarding your penultimate post, the balancing/drive forces on a poppet and a spool can be made to be the same.



Can they? The sealing force on a poppet valve/occlusive seal is distinctly different from a spool/radial seal. The radial seal seals independently of the pressure acting on it; in a poppet valve that pressure makes the seal.



My comment stands. The balancing and drive forces acting on a spool and a poppet can designed to be the same. I don't think I mentioned sealing forces. Regardless, the gas pressure doesn't have to make the seal in a poppet valve. A poppet can be pressure balanced, as long as it has some closing force, such as a spring. How well it seals across a range of gas pressures will depend on the construction of the seal and seat, of course.

How about we call it a pressure controlled valve. As Betasniper said, whether it has a radial or face seal is almost irrelevent when trying to describe the operation of the mechanism. It is more to do with what actuates the seal/valve rather than the actual construction of the seal interface itself.



Well the point of distinct descriptions is to discriminate (in the scientific sense) between designs. As I noted earlier, "pressure controlled" in firing valve operation descriptions is pretty much effectively a way to say spool-controlled, so by nature the action of a pressure-controlled valve is that of a spool valve. Please note that I have acknowledged that there is a difference in marketing but this forum's stated goal is FOR the attacking of marketing distortions, and calling the Etha a poppet in any way is frankly a marketing distortion. I'm pretty sure you know full well the Etha is a spool through and through and have stated as much in other threads.



I too have stated (I think, somewhere) that I agree that technically the gas release mechanism of the Etha is a spool valve. However I struggled with my concience to openly call it a "spool valve gun". Given the general publics current understnding of how a "spool valve gun" operates I think it would be far more misleading, to the consumer, to call this a "spool valve gun". Doing so, to me at least, would have been a far greater "marketing distortion" as viewed by the consumer than what we came up with. I have openly said that we didn't know what to call this gun. I still don;t think it should be refered to as simply a "sppol valve" gun. In my "marketing" description there is reference to a spool. We also wanted to imply that this isn't a traditional "spool valve marker" and that the spools throw was short, hence the poppet reference. And around the circle we go......
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#121 TechPB-Mike

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Posted 02 February 2012 - 02:36 PM

Call me crazy, but I just can't figure out why it's THAT important to put a distinct "label" on the marker

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#122 xincognitopbx

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Posted 02 February 2012 - 02:43 PM

You see, now this is someone to be after...

And also labeling was deemed 'necessary' earlier in this thread Mike, scroll back a few pages ;)


P.S. first after mike

Edited by xincognitopbx, 02 February 2012 - 02:52 PM.

But the Ego 11 is shiny. :(

Dosent the Ego 11 only come in dust colours?

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#123 cockerpunk

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Posted 02 February 2012 - 02:49 PM

Call me crazy, but I just can't figure out why it's THAT important to put a distinct "label" on the marker

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thats kinda why i protest the entire purpose of this thread. the idea being to assign traditional "spool" and "poppet" traits to guns without fully understanding how they work. if you know how they work, then its easy to figure out what they are good at and what they arnt, but in normal discussion, with relatively new and non technical players, they just want to say "oh its a spool so its smooth and quiet" or "oh its a poppet so it kicks but is efficient" but that is not really the case for guns such as this.

which is why the pressure controlled poppet designation is giving everyone who doesn't understand what it means sand in there vaginas. and im sure jack doesn't like that name cause im pretty sure empire/kee/simon was the one who made it up ;)
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#124 drg

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Posted 04 February 2012 - 12:21 AM

Whether or not it would be a completely different gun doesn't have anything to do with the description of the valve, does it? And what does "completely different gun" mean? If the bolt were separated in the first place as it is on this marker, then ostensibly you could have a hammer-driven poppet behind it and it would still be the "same" gun.



I'm not quite sure whether you are being serious here. You are here arguing the semantics of a radial seal v face seal in the context of a system/application that most think the difference irrelevent, and yet you say that disconnecting the valve from the bolt or switching between a hammer-driven poppet and pressure controlled valve doesn't ostensibly alter the function of a gun? Which is it? Surely if you change the way the internals of a gun fundementally function then you change the gun itself? To a "different" type of gun.


Quite serious, the layout of the gun, the action of the bolt, none of that changes what the valve design is. Whether the bolt is integrated with the firing valve actuator or separated from it has no effect on the definition of the firing valve (see: open- vs closed-bolt poppets).

You don't need to because the Etha is already a spool. It has a locating stop at the back of the spool. If it were a poppet like the mini, changing to a radial seal would require changes to address seal location. If the Ego's poppet had a radial seal it would require design changes.



Sorry, you are correct. I thought you were refering to axial alignment of the spool and body. It would be very easy to create a solid stop for a modified Mini spool.


It would be, but as it stands right now it does not have one designed to do that because it is not a spool, it is a poppet. And whether it is easy or not makes no difference.

Can they? The sealing force on a poppet valve/occlusive seal is distinctly different from a spool/radial seal. The radial seal seals independently of the pressure acting on it; in a poppet valve that pressure makes the seal.



My comment stands. The balancing and drive forces acting on a spool and a poppet can designed to be the same. I don't think I mentioned sealing forces. Regardless, the gas pressure doesn't have to make the seal in a poppet valve. A poppet can be pressure balanced, as long as it has some closing force, such as a spring. How well it seals across a range of gas pressures will depend on the construction of the seal and seat, of course.


The driving force can be balanced but poppets still require a net positive closing force to seal; radial seals don't need that. That's a big difference in how the seal works, that's in no way inconsequential to the design of the firing valve. Which is the point here, the nomenclature describes the design.

How about we call it a pressure controlled valve. As Betasniper said, whether it has a radial or face seal is almost irrelevent when trying to describe the operation of the mechanism. It is more to do with what actuates the seal/valve rather than the actual construction of the seal interface itself.



Well the point of distinct descriptions is to discriminate (in the scientific sense) between designs. As I noted earlier, "pressure controlled" in firing valve operation descriptions is pretty much effectively a way to say spool-controlled, so by nature the action of a pressure-controlled valve is that of a spool valve. Please note that I have acknowledged that there is a difference in marketing but this forum's stated goal is FOR the attacking of marketing distortions, and calling the Etha a poppet in any way is frankly a marketing distortion. I'm pretty sure you know full well the Etha is a spool through and through and have stated as much in other threads.



I too have stated (I think, somewhere) that I agree that technically the gas release mechanism of the Etha is a spool valve. However I struggled with my concience to openly call it a "spool valve gun". Given the general publics current understnding of how a "spool valve gun" operates I think it would be far more misleading, to the consumer, to call this a "spool valve gun". Doing so, to me at least, would have been a far greater "marketing distortion" as viewed by the consumer than what we came up with. I have openly said that we didn't know what to call this gun. I still don;t think it should be refered to as simply a "sppol valve" gun. In my "marketing" description there is reference to a spool. We also wanted to imply that this isn't a traditional "spool valve marker" and that the spools throw was short, hence the poppet reference. And around the circle we go......


The fact that the distance of travel the spool makes it short doesn't change it into a poppet though. I just fail to see how it can ever be called less misleading to call something what it is not, than to call it what it is. If the marketing copy said "poppet-like valve action and efficiency" it would be defensible, but to actually call it a poppet ... frankly that treads closer to false advertising and unethical marketing than I would ever be comfortable with.

Call me crazy, but I just can't figure out why it's THAT important to put a distinct "label" on the marker


It's necessary to use the correct terms to describe what something is for the purposes of technical discussion, particularly in a venue for technical discussion. The OP asked what the marker is designwise, we are defining what it is. The "label" platitude doesn't apply to this.

Guys, it boils down to this. What you are saying is like insisting that a blue gun can be called a black gun because the anodization is inconsequential to the gun's operation and can easily be changed or optioned differently. Insisting that a black gun be called black and not blue is not an inconsequential exercise in labeling.
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#125 Troy

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Posted 04 February 2012 - 07:27 AM

thats kinda why i protest the entire purpose of this thread. the idea being to assign traditional "spool" and "poppet" traits to guns without fully understanding how they work. if you know how they work, then its easy to figure out what they are good at and what they arnt, but in normal discussion, with relatively new and non technical players, they just want to say "oh its a spool so its smooth and quiet" or "oh its a poppet so it kicks but is efficient" but that is not really the case for guns such as this.

which is why the pressure controlled poppet designation is giving everyone who doesn't understand what it means sand in there vaginas. and im sure jack doesn't like that name cause im pretty sure empire/kee/simon was the one who made it up ;)


The irony of this post is AMAZING. It's hard to take anyone seriously criticizing others for applying labels to markers, when, in fact, you are the biggest advocate of this marker being called a poppet. Heaven forbid we try to name it something else that makes sense.
\m/

#126 bufon1228

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Posted 04 February 2012 - 07:29 PM

Maybe is a spool valve but kicks like a poppet :D. but i dont care i love it :wub: and that what counts...
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#127 cockerpunk

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Posted 04 February 2012 - 07:47 PM



thats kinda why i protest the entire purpose of this thread. the idea being to assign traditional "spool" and "poppet" traits to guns without fully understanding how they work. if you know how they work, then its easy to figure out what they are good at and what they arnt, but in normal discussion, with relatively new and non technical players, they just want to say "oh its a spool so its smooth and quiet" or "oh its a poppet so it kicks but is efficient" but that is not really the case for guns such as this.

which is why the pressure controlled poppet designation is giving everyone who doesn't understand what it means sand in there vaginas. and im sure jack doesn't like that name cause im pretty sure empire/kee/simon was the one who made it up ;)


The irony of this post is AMAZING. It's hard to take anyone seriously criticizing others for applying labels to markers, when, in fact, you are the biggest advocate of this marker being called a poppet. Heaven forbid we try to name it something else that makes sense.


i don't advocate calling it a poppet. im also not attempting to give it characteristics based on a super-simplified understanding of the function of the gun, which is the purpose of this thread.

nothing hypocritical about calling the gun by its proper name. its an increasing force pressure controlled poppet.

it works identical to a legion shocker, but its open bolt, one could even argue that the legion is a blowforward as well:

Posted Image

even the definition by ydna is spot on:

These markers use a pressurized valve plunger to release air in the same way as mechanical markers, however in this case the valve is opened using air pressure instead of mechanical force. Generally speaking, these designs are considered to be further developed, despite some being quite old. This is likely due to the inherent recoil-reduction since these markers often offer low moving mass (which can influence recoil).
The exact firing methods differ from one-another very greatly. I tend to categorize them as either requiring a burst of force to fire, or by removing an "idle" force to fire. There are also hybrid combinations of the two.


i do not understand how something so simple can really be throwing so many people for a loop. i think your all stuck on the word "poppet" and cannot see past the whole notion that there are guns that aren't really poppet valves, and aren't really spool valves, even to the point that the method of sealing the valve is irrelevant ... these guns fit very nicely when you look at grouping them as different types of pressure controlled poppets, as zdspb and ydna do. i think it makes perfect sense, and all of these guns could easily be changed from face to radial or vice versa ...

it really is that simple.

Edited by cockerpunk, 04 February 2012 - 08:11 PM.

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#128 drg

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Posted 04 February 2012 - 09:47 PM

CP did you miss where it was explained that that drawing is not correct? The legion does have a poppet apparently, but that drawing didn't draw that part correctly.

A poppet is something. I don't get why you continue to ignore what it is and just call whatever a poppet.
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#129 cockerpunk

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Posted 04 February 2012 - 10:05 PM

CP did you miss where it was explained that that drawing is not correct? The legion does have a poppet apparently, but that drawing didn't draw that part correctly.

A poppet is something. I don't get why you continue to ignore what it is and just call whatever a poppet.


it doesn't matter if the seal is radial or face ... it doesn't change how the gun works.

im not trying to call etha a poppet ... im trying to call it a pressure controlled poppet ... which is what it is. how much more basic can this be? its not a traditional poppet valved gun, is a pressure controlled poppet valve, increasing force.

Edited by cockerpunk, 04 February 2012 - 10:09 PM.

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#130 drg

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Posted 05 February 2012 - 12:35 AM


CP did you miss where it was explained that that drawing is not correct? The legion does have a poppet apparently, but that drawing didn't draw that part correctly.

A poppet is something. I don't get why you continue to ignore what it is and just call whatever a poppet.


it doesn't matter if the seal is radial or face ... it doesn't change how the gun works.


How a gun works (as you put it) doesn't affect whether the valve is a poppet or spool. For the millionth time, it seems.

im not trying to call etha a poppet ... im trying to call it a pressure controlled poppet ... which is what it is. how much more basic can this be? its not a traditional poppet valved gun, is a pressure controlled poppet valve, increasing force.


It is not a poppet valve at all. What is so hard about this, seriously?

Edited by drg, 05 February 2012 - 12:37 AM.

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#131 Troy

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Posted 05 February 2012 - 02:59 AM

Let me put it this way, I know why the group of markers that fall under "pressure controlled poppets" are not all poppet type markers... however, the term "poppet" has so much baggage that comes with it (it is the name of a certain valve type, after all) that people will see that in the description name and stop there. If I founded a new communist political party and called it "The New Tea Party" that would be outrageously dumb. Everyone knows what the Tea Party is, and what it stands for, so it's quite a natural leap to associate the libertarian stance with the new party that I founded... I can tell people "tea party!=tea party..." but that would just be retarded. If I had a group of painting utensils that I reffered to as "brushes," but that group had rollers and spray cans in it, don't you think that would be hard to explain to people why you grouped them that way?

You SAY you want people to know how guns actually operate instead of getting wrapped up in the spool/poppet box, well here's your chance (your missing it!), call it something that has neither "poppet" nor "spool" in the name and actually describe the important aspects of the firing mechanism in the name.

We both know that the poppet/spool designation is trivial to these markers, so why not just ditch the valve type as a descriptor in the title of the group?

Edited by Troy, 05 February 2012 - 02:59 AM.

\m/

#132 drg

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Posted 05 February 2012 - 04:46 PM

Let me put it this way, I know why the group of markers that fall under "pressure controlled poppets" are not all poppet type markers...


Why? Because at least as far as ZDSPB is concerned, they all are ... hence they are called poppets.

Which ones aren't?

Edited by drg, 05 February 2012 - 04:47 PM.

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#133 cockerpunk

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Posted 05 February 2012 - 11:42 PM

Let me put it this way, I know why the group of markers that fall under "pressure controlled poppets" are not all poppet type markers... however, the term "poppet" has so much baggage that comes with it (it is the name of a certain valve type, after all) that people will see that in the description name and stop there. If I founded a new communist political party and called it "The New Tea Party" that would be outrageously dumb. Everyone knows what the Tea Party is, and what it stands for, so it's quite a natural leap to associate the libertarian stance with the new party that I founded... I can tell people "tea party!=tea party..." but that would just be retarded. If I had a group of painting utensils that I reffered to as "brushes," but that group had rollers and spray cans in it, don't you think that would be hard to explain to people why you grouped them that way?

You SAY you want people to know how guns actually operate instead of getting wrapped up in the spool/poppet box, well here's your chance (your missing it!), call it something that has neither "poppet" nor "spool" in the name and actually describe the important aspects of the firing mechanism in the name.

We both know that the poppet/spool designation is trivial to these markers, so why not just ditch the valve type as a descriptor in the title of the group?


because pressure controlled valve does not make any sense. all valves are pressure controlled. a poppet is a piece that articulates over a short distance quickly to open and close. which is what all of these guns have. the face vs radial seal is only present in paintball terminology, as i pointed out before, classic "poppet" valves are from cars, which are tapered seals, both face and radial.

if you can come up with a better name then pressure controlled poppet, im all ears. it may be an uphill battle to get people to more strictly understand what a poppet valve truly is, and how a pressure controlled poppet differs, that distinction makes sense to me.
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#134 Molybdenum

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Posted 06 February 2012 - 12:00 AM

if you can come up with a better name then pressure controlled poppet, im all ears.


Poppet fired dump/spool ? I hesitate to group it with the Axe/Mini because it uses an increase (rather than a decrease) in force behind the poppet to open the valve, but if I were to group it into an existing category, pressure controlled poppet would be it.

I think part of the problem stems from paintballs convention of what we call spool valves.

#135 cockerpunk

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Posted 06 February 2012 - 12:06 AM


if you can come up with a better name then pressure controlled poppet, im all ears.


Poppet fired dump/spool ? I hesitate to group it with the Axe/Mini because it uses an increase (rather than a decrease) in force behind the poppet to open the valve, but if I were to group it into an existing category, pressure controlled poppet would be it.

I think part of the problem stems from paintballs convention of what we call spool valves.

mini does both actually, both increases the force on one side, and decreases the force on the other.

but yeah, otherwise im with you.
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#136 drg

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Posted 06 February 2012 - 05:24 AM

because pressure controlled valve does not make any sense. all valves are pressure controlled. a poppet is a piece that articulates over a short distance quickly to open and close. which is what all of these guns have. the face vs radial seal is only present in paintball terminology, as i pointed out before, classic "poppet" valves are from cars, which are tapered seals, both face and radial.


No it is not only present in paintball technology, and the face-type seal is an understood part of the definition of poppet valve. Otherwise any valve with an axially actuating component could be considered a poppet, including spool valves. Short or long action distance has nothing to do with anything, I have no idea why that keeps coming up. Paintball is replete with spool valves with tiny actuation distances.

There is no radial seal in standard automotive poppet valves, that is a "face" seal as we are using the term. The seat and valve face are not elastic and do not seal without axial force.

http://www.edgeroame...t.asp?iNum=0502
http://www.norgren.c...s/aod/spov.html
http://www.google.co...O07LwccpO3a2J1A <--- very clear powerpoint with diagrams

Edited by drg, 06 February 2012 - 05:47 AM.

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#137 cockerpunk

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Posted 06 February 2012 - 10:43 AM

because pressure controlled valve does not make any sense. all valves are pressure controlled. a poppet is a piece that articulates over a short distance quickly to open and close. which is what all of these guns have. the face vs radial seal is only present in paintball terminology, as i pointed out before, classic "poppet" valves are from cars, which are tapered seals, both face and radial.


No it is not only present in paintball technology, and the face-type seal is an understood part of the definition of poppet valve. Otherwise any valve with an axially actuating component could be considered a poppet, including spool valves. Short or long action distance has nothing to do with anything, I have no idea why that keeps coming up. Paintball is replete with spool valves with tiny actuation distances.

There is no radial seal in standard automotive poppet valves, that is a "face" seal as we are using the term. The seat and valve face are not elastic and do not seal without axial force.

http://www.edgeroame...t.asp?iNum=0502
http://www.norgren.c...s/aod/spov.html
http://www.google.co...O07LwccpO3a2J1A <--- very clear powerpoint with diagrams


automotive valves are tapered:

Posted Image
The ultimate truth in paintball is that the interaction between the gun and the player is far and away the largest factor in accuracy, consistency, and reliability.

And yes, Gordon is the sexiest manifestation of "to the front."


#138 drg

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Posted 06 February 2012 - 12:04 PM

That does not make it a radial seal, that is just hogwash. This is a classic poppet face-type seal. Tapered automotive valves work exactly the same as other poppets, their taper does not change the means of sealing. I don't suggest you try to pursue the automotive valve analogy any further, it's apparent you don't have much experience with them and you are liable to end up embarrassing yourself and/or creating a lot of misinformation.

There have been several paintball valves that used tapered poppets per se, however even seemingly flat poppets seal by the pliability of the material forming a tapered plug.

Edited by drg, 06 February 2012 - 12:04 PM.

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#139 cockerpunk

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Posted 06 February 2012 - 12:16 PM

That does not make it a radial seal, that is just hogwash. This is a classic poppet face-type seal. Tapered automotive valves work exactly the same as other poppets, their taper does not change the means of sealing. I don't suggest you try to pursue the automotive valve analogy any further, it's apparent you don't have much experience with them and you are liable to end up embarrassing yourself and/or creating a lot of misinformation.

There have been several paintball valves that used tapered poppets per se, however even seemingly flat poppets seal by the pliability of the material forming a tapered plug.

a tapered sealing face is by definition both a radial and face seal. do you doubt geometry?
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And yes, Gordon is the sexiest manifestation of "to the front."


#140 drg

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Posted 06 February 2012 - 12:33 PM

Dude, I'm sorry but you're talking out of your ass now. A radial seal is something, just like a poppet is something. If you are just going to spout made up blather, you are making a mockery of the purported purpose of your own forum.

http://www.rlhudson....html#radialseal

Edited by drg, 06 February 2012 - 12:40 PM.

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#141 cockerpunk

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Posted 06 February 2012 - 12:53 PM

Dude, I'm sorry but you're talking out of your ass now. A radial seal is something, just like a poppet is something. If you are just going to spout made up blather, you are making a mockery of the purported purpose of your own forum.

http://www.rlhudson....html#radialseal


i know what a radial seal is. i know what a face seal is. a tapered seal is either different then both and in need of a categorization, or it is both a radial and face seal. i would argue since it has components of face, and radial, it is both a radial and a face seal.

this seems relevant in light of how the legion shocker is different then the animation, it is a tapered seal.

Edited by cockerpunk, 06 February 2012 - 12:54 PM.

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And yes, Gordon is the sexiest manifestation of "to the front."


#142 xincognitopbx

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Posted 06 February 2012 - 01:06 PM


Dude, I'm sorry but you're talking out of your ass now. A radial seal is something, just like a poppet is something. If you are just going to spout made up blather, you are making a mockery of the purported purpose of your own forum.

http://www.rlhudson....html#radialseal


i know what a radial seal is. i know what a face seal is. a tapered seal is either different then both and in need of a categorization, or it is both a radial and face seal. i would argue since it has components of face, and radial, it is both a radial and a face seal.

this seems relevant in light of how the legion shocker is different then the animation, it is a tapered seal.

So we call it a taper valve and call it a day?

But the Ego 11 is shiny. :(

Dosent the Ego 11 only come in dust colours?

Feedback 2/0/0

#143 cockerpunk

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Posted 06 February 2012 - 01:19 PM



Dude, I'm sorry but you're talking out of your ass now. A radial seal is something, just like a poppet is something. If you are just going to spout made up blather, you are making a mockery of the purported purpose of your own forum.

http://www.rlhudson....html#radialseal


i know what a radial seal is. i know what a face seal is. a tapered seal is either different then both and in need of a categorization, or it is both a radial and face seal. i would argue since it has components of face, and radial, it is both a radial and a face seal.

this seems relevant in light of how the legion shocker is different then the animation, it is a tapered seal.

So we call it a taper valve and call it a day?


sure, now is it a poppet or spool?

the fundamental issue is that poppet and spool are too limiting of terms to describe the actions of these pressure controlled poppet valved guns. and in cases where face vs radial seal doesn't make a difference ... then why use that to categorize them?

other useless methods to categorize guns by:

color
number of orings
feedneck location
center of gravity
number of sharp corners that can cut you
number of 10-32 UNF fasteners used

useful way to categorize guns:

how they work (ie, pressure controlled poppet increasing force blowforward)
performance metrics (consistency, efficiency, ergonomics ...)

Edited by cockerpunk, 06 February 2012 - 01:23 PM.

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And yes, Gordon is the sexiest manifestation of "to the front."


#144 xincognitopbx

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Posted 06 February 2012 - 01:28 PM

assign taper valve a whole new set of characteristics based off of the etha? spool, poppet, and taper(ed) valve being the new group.

But the Ego 11 is shiny. :(

Dosent the Ego 11 only come in dust colours?

Feedback 2/0/0

#145 cockerpunk

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Posted 06 February 2012 - 01:30 PM

assign taper valve a whole new set of characteristics based off of the etha? spool, poppet, and taper(ed) valve being the new group.


thats basically what a pressure controlled poppet is, a different category.
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And yes, Gordon is the sexiest manifestation of "to the front."


#146 xincognitopbx

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Posted 06 February 2012 - 01:31 PM


assign taper valve a whole new set of characteristics based off of the etha? spool, poppet, and taper(ed) valve being the new group.


thats basically what a pressure controlled poppettaper is, a different category.

That's what I'm suggesting in red ;)

But the Ego 11 is shiny. :(

Dosent the Ego 11 only come in dust colours?

Feedback 2/0/0

#147 cockerpunk

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Posted 06 February 2012 - 01:35 PM



assign taper valve a whole new set of characteristics based off of the etha? spool, poppet, and taper(ed) valve being the new group.


thats basically what a pressure controlled poppettaper is, a different category.

That's what I'm suggesting in red ;)


the tapered valve example was just to show that the strict face/radial seal definition is flawed, not to suggest that PCPs use tapered valves (though some could and evidently do).
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And yes, Gordon is the sexiest manifestation of "to the front."


#148 drg

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Posted 06 February 2012 - 01:47 PM

i know what a radial seal is. i know what a face seal is. a tapered seal is either different then both and in need of a categorization, or it is both a radial and face seal. i would argue since it has components of face, and radial, it is both a radial and a face seal.

this seems relevant in light of how the legion shocker is different then the animation, it is a tapered seal.


No, it's not. Most if not all poppets seal with a taper. That's how they work. A tapered plug seal is NOT A RADIAL SEAL.

Stop making crap up just to try to be argumentative. Accept that you're wrong and stop causing misinformation. You call a poppet a poppet and a spool a spool because THAT'S WHAT THEY ARE. You don't need any other damn reason, no matter if they do the same thing or not!
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#149 cockerpunk

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Posted 06 February 2012 - 03:58 PM

i know what a radial seal is. i know what a face seal is. a tapered seal is either different then both and in need of a categorization, or it is both a radial and face seal. i would argue since it has components of face, and radial, it is both a radial and a face seal.

this seems relevant in light of how the legion shocker is different then the animation, it is a tapered seal.


No, it's not. Most if not all poppets seal with a taper. That's how they work. A tapered plug seal is NOT A RADIAL SEAL.

Stop making crap up just to try to be argumentative. Accept that you're wrong and stop causing misinformation. You call a poppet a poppet and a spool a spool because THAT'S WHAT THEY ARE. You don't need any other damn reason, no matter if they do the same thing or not!


every poppet valved gun i have ever taken apart has a flat face seal.

cockers
spyders
azodin
timmies (gen1-current)
ego
etek
vike
excal
angel (admittedly only LED-iR3)
nelson valves
........

that is how you defined the whole thing, we are playing in your ball park of definitions, don't get butthurt when they blow up in your face.

Edited by cockerpunk, 06 February 2012 - 04:01 PM.

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#150 drg

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Posted 06 February 2012 - 04:43 PM


i know what a radial seal is. i know what a face seal is. a tapered seal is either different then both and in need of a categorization, or it is both a radial and face seal. i would argue since it has components of face, and radial, it is both a radial and a face seal.

this seems relevant in light of how the legion shocker is different then the animation, it is a tapered seal.


No, it's not. Most if not all poppets seal with a taper. That's how they work. A tapered plug seal is NOT A RADIAL SEAL.

Stop making crap up just to try to be argumentative. Accept that you're wrong and stop causing misinformation. You call a poppet a poppet and a spool a spool because THAT'S WHAT THEY ARE. You don't need any other damn reason, no matter if they do the same thing or not!


every poppet valved gun i have ever taken apart has a flat face seal.

cockers
spyders
azodin
timmies (gen1-current)
ego
etek
vike
excal
angel (admittedly only LED-iR3)
nelson valves
........

that is how you defined the whole thing, we are playing in your ball park of definitions, don't get butthurt when they blow up in your face.


No, these seals are not perfectly flat, they are pliable and form effectively tapered indentations. However there are also real tapered poppet valves such as the ACI power valve, CCM valves a generation or two ago, Maddman Rocket valves, the Trracer valve (made by ACI), mq1, zenitram valves, heck it looks like stock Ego valves are mostly tapered poppets, contrary to what you said above. So yeah, poppets and taper seals are not uncommon in paintball, they ARE NOT radial seals in ANY way. Anyone can look at one and figure it out.

Posted Image

Honestly, who do you think you're fooling?

Edited by drg, 06 February 2012 - 05:09 PM.

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