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The technological limit of paintball?


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#151 Eskimo

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Posted 12 April 2012 - 01:28 PM

Right? the kingman chaser/eraser/marker/tag thingy pistols are a good step in agressive playing. And I'd honestly use one. IF the velocity could go past 260.
they are like what? 79.99 on sale for a 12 round mag fed pistol that gets 60 shots per 12 gram. and the barrel is overbored like a car in a tunnel.
Toss a 0.45 barrel on it. watch efficiency rise. and make extended 15 round mags. OH the pure joy.

Edited by Eskimo, 12 April 2012 - 01:29 PM.

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#152 rntlee

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Posted 12 April 2012 - 06:01 PM

Right? the kingman chaser/eraser/marker/tag thingy pistols are a good step in agressive playing. And I'd honestly use one. IF the velocity could go past 260.
they are like what? 79.99 on sale for a 12 round mag fed pistol that gets 60 shots per 12 gram. and the barrel is overbored like a car in a tunnel.
Toss a 0.45 barrel on it. watch efficiency rise. and make extended 15 round mags. OH the pure joy.



Can't change the barrel on a Kingman pistol...it's machined in the receiver.
A bunch of us had them at one time...they're a hoot indoors or on a really small field when everyone's playing with .43 cal




#153 The_Hyren

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Posted 12 April 2012 - 09:03 PM

We can see from these four areas alone that one crucial aspect must be changed.
And that is the paintball itself. There is a reason why paintballs are getting smaller.
And its all about the math.
1. Smaller paintball (with same mass) = less drag = longer range
2. Smaller paintball = less angular momentum = more accurate shots
3. smaller paintball = less volume = greater freedom in gun design (economical shotgun)
4. smaller paintball = less material = cheaper



Smaller balls of similar mass are going to be an issue. In essence, they cause more damage to targets because the force of impact is spread over a smaller area. .68 balls are chrono-ed at 280-300fps for safety reasons and my guess is that a smaller but similar weight ball would need its velocity scaled, which makes it less useful ultimately.

But addressing the original topic (technology limits/stagnation). I'd like to think that stagnation is due to the more and more limited number of minds producing new tech. If you look at the number of companies that used to make stuff versus today, its pretty different. There aren't little companies coming out with radical designs, like ATS, AGD, ICE, etc. Some of my favorite and the most interesting markers is history were made by these kinds of companies, who fathered cool markers like the Automag, AT85, epic, revenge, sovereign, etc. These days when I see a new company I only find knock offs of popular designs, NOT NEW ONES.

Blame it on the status of the global economy or super company bullying or whatever but that's my 2 cents on stagnation in paintball today.

If your not familiar, look some of these up, really cool markers:
ATS AT85 - Full auto without RT or electronics. ~25 round box mag fed using a chain drive
ICE Epic - bolt-less design, more well known than most
Southern Pneumatics Phoenix - Never mass produced, rotary bolt
Arrow Precision Sovereign - Cocker variant with the ram built into the bolt, side slung 3 way

#154 The_Hyren

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Posted 12 April 2012 - 09:25 PM

also, regardless of muzzle velocity, 50 cal will lose speed faster then 68 cal. so you have to add WAY higher muzzle velocities to get similar at range velocities to 68.

small, light, round projectiles are just bad fundamentally. smaller and lighter doesn't make things better.


Yea, by volume 50cal is 60% smaller (~2.5 50cal to 1 68cal), so figure mass scales similarly, so ~750 fps to have similar momentum. And when mass is down 60% but cross sectional area is only down 40%, so the same force imparts 33% more acceleration. Hence less range and more cross wind problems.

#155 UV Halo

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Posted 14 April 2012 - 12:30 AM

...But addressing the original topic (technology limits/stagnation). I'd like to think that stagnation is due to the more and more limited number of minds producing new tech. If you look at the number of companies that used to make stuff versus today, its pretty different. There aren't little companies coming out with radical designs, like ATS, AGD, ICE, etc. Some of my favorite and the most interesting markers is history were made by these kinds of companies, who fathered cool markers like the Automag, AT85, epic, revenge, sovereign, etc. These days when I see a new company I only find knock offs of popular designs, NOT NEW ONES.

Blame it on the status of the global economy or super company bullying or whatever but that's my 2 cents on stagnation in paintball today.

If your not familiar, look some of these up, really cool markers:
ATS AT85 - Full auto without RT or electronics. ~25 round box mag fed using a chain drive
ICE Epic - bolt-less design, more well known than most
Southern Pneumatics Phoenix - Never mass produced, rotary bolt
Arrow Precision Sovereign - Cocker variant with the ram built into the bolt, side slung 3 way


I believe that the current lineup of markers is the result of market darwinism. Meaning that we, the customers drove the manufacturers to produce markers with the features we wanted, in the most cost efficient manner.

Tom Kaye got out because AGD couldn't compete price-wise with the folks making entire guns out of aluminum and delrin (interestingly, time has shown that those guns are largely holding up fine if manufactured well)
ATS markers are very finicky and not very efficient
The Ice Epic doesn't have the ROF that most players desire
I don't know too much about the Phoenix but, something tells me it didn't make it for very logical reasons.
The Sovereign couldn't keep up with the ROF of electro's.

The bottom line is that there's only so many ways to arrive at a projectile leaving the barrel at 280-300FPS, and an ROF greater than 12 balls per second, with reliability, ease of maintenance, and a price low enough to turn a profit on the resulting volume of sales. The required technology has dropped low enough so now we have multiple manufacturers producing very similar designs with the major differences focused not on performance but, on the user interface/feature level.

#156 Teek

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Posted 14 April 2012 - 02:00 AM

This doesn't really count as a technological improvement I guess, but I hope more companies take... different directions with marker aesthetics. I think it's only been recently when I've really started looking into picking up a couple of old guns, and got my Timmy Alias (oh yeah, and when I saw the sexy marker thread) did I realize how bland many modern guns feel, in my opinion. Not necessarily bad, in fact I love a few Ego 11 and DM12 designs, but often this is more due to color and paint style rather than the milling and body work. Like UV said, I think the current market feels narrow because we made it narrow, and I believe in the race to try and go for the last few performance advantages, specifically in cutting down weight, we've really hampered the variety of marker designs. Milling can vary a bit, but ultimately they all look like variations of fairly similar platforms, without the variety that guns like automags used to offer, or the variety in design of autocockers. My Alias has a lot of unnecessary weight, but I think it's totally worth it because it's a damn fine looking gun.
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#157 MMMerc

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Posted 20 April 2012 - 01:42 PM

First off, i'm proud to say goggle huds may be on the way, check it
Second off, I agree that the paintball projectile is crappy and needs improving, and also agree in the decline in the innovation in gun aesthetics (sorry i have no input for either at the time). However:

I do remember how someone talked about smart jerseys earlier and i believe i thought of a way to input that into professional clothing and what not. Simply using a wire system that will snap on a direct impact from a paintball, disconnecting will disrupt the small electrical flow through it, sending a alarm to a ref or another authority, that the player has received a direct it.

Much like those impact stickers that the myth busters use, these will break only at definite direct impact. To avoid breaking when diving and what not, they will avoid the back of the elbows and front of the knees since there are not many hits there any how.

Still kinks to work out, but good idea i believe.

#158 Teek

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Posted 20 April 2012 - 02:28 PM


Your idea is solidly within reach of current technology. Competitive fencing has had reliable electronic scoring since the 1970s. Wireless technology is used at the highest end of competitive fencing and has been for more than 10 years. It would not be hard to design a jersey that detects paint and impacts and then (wirelessly or otherwise) signals other devices such as guns, indicator lights, and scoreboards.

That fencing "technology" is just the sword completing a circuit, which in turn registers as a point for the fencer, at least that what it appears like. For paintball it would be a little more difficult to establish a connection without putting a conductive substance into the ball itself.

Also to whoever brought up the new NPPL chips, I believe those are just RF sensors that have a longer range than Empires kits so that NPPL can see the cycles a second from each gun. I don't believe they can actually control what mode the marker is firing in


Well, paintballs already have water in them, I wonder if that could be used as the basis of a conductive paintball to complete a circuit? I don't think impact sensing would be good, unless we could really pinpoint a range where most paintballs break without significant error. Given the variety of conditions that can affect how a paintball breaks, I don't think this is realistic, but who knows. More sophisticated bounce/break testing (featuring paint storage experiments, and padding effects) could be very interesting.

The other problem (for me, at least) is making this more accessible. I think you could probably get a big, complex set up for tournaments not far into the future, but I think there are plenty of other methods to control wiping or playing on in tournaments. There are more refs, who are under closer scrutiny, and video technology could even be used. Although I think most people view advancements in paintball through the tournament lens, I believe this would be put to much better use in rec ball, where reffing is generally less effective, but wiping can still be very damaging.

Again though, it really only makes thing more complex, so I'd settle for a tournament system as a proof of concept.
Rest in Peace, Borg.

#159 Troy

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Posted 20 April 2012 - 03:44 PM

Well, paintballs already have water in them, I wonder if that could be used as the basis of a conductive paintball to complete a circuit? I don't think impact sensing would be good, unless we could really pinpoint a range where most paintballs break without significant error. Given the variety of conditions that can affect how a paintball breaks, I don't think this is realistic, but who knows. More sophisticated bounce/break testing (featuring paint storage experiments, and padding effects) could be very interesting.


I think differentiating between a break and a bounce would be hard, to say the least if impact is the standard you are going by.

Now, if you came up with a two part chemical solution that allowed the use of a clear liquid in a paintball, that would react to something on a jersey/glove/mask and change color or fluoresce... THAT would be cool. You could make it to where wiping only spread the activated area, making it painfully obvious that someone was cheating.



\m/

#160 Teek

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Posted 20 April 2012 - 07:01 PM


Well, paintballs already have water in them, I wonder if that could be used as the basis of a conductive paintball to complete a circuit? I don't think impact sensing would be good, unless we could really pinpoint a range where most paintballs break without significant error. Given the variety of conditions that can affect how a paintball breaks, I don't think this is realistic, but who knows. More sophisticated bounce/break testing (featuring paint storage experiments, and padding effects) could be very interesting.


I think differentiating between a break and a bounce would be hard, to say the least if impact is the standard you are going by.

Now, if you came up with a two part chemical solution that allowed the use of a clear liquid in a paintball, that would react to something on a jersey/glove/mask and change color or fluoresce... THAT would be cool. You could make it to where wiping only spread the activated area, making it painfully obvious that someone was cheating.




True that to the first.

The second is a very interesting idea...
Rest in Peace, Borg.

#161 Suit

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Posted 20 April 2012 - 10:13 PM

We have lots of room to advance, but there is a limit. I believe Dye will come out with a product the blows us away, as they have done many times before. In my mind I think they are working on perfecting the rotor. Polishing out the last few problems with it.

#162 Teek

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Posted 28 April 2012 - 07:33 PM

Although it's not a true technological advancement for paintball, it is an advancement that could change how markers are manufactured. It's 3D printing, and some people are calling it the 3rd Industrial Revolution. I'll let the video explain.




Compared to conventional manufacturing methods, 3D printing, either of metals or plastics, can offer a variety of advantages. One machine can be used to make a huge variety of objects, possibly every part of a gun, maybe even at the same time. It can do so without wasting the raw materials that you would mill off, and without needing to buy all the various, expensive specialized machines. It offers the possibility of levels of customization that come from small, expensive metal shops at factory prices. As the technology advances, it's also possible that work on this level could be done in someones home, let alone on a factory floor. You could possibly be able to manufacture your own spare parts, or even parts for guns that have long gone out of production, as all of the design is done digitally. You can even use digital scanners to create a 3d model of a real object, and then use a 3D printer to make a copy. There is a huge realm of possibilities for this technology, and it's growing rapidly. 3D printing has already been used to make airplane parts for Airbus, with remarkable results: lighter weight, lower cost, faster manufacture time. I would bet that 3D printing is going to start hitting paintball in the next 5 to 10 years at most, and when it does, it's going to change everything.
Rest in Peace, Borg.

#163 spqr-king

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Posted 29 April 2012 - 02:04 PM

I would venture to say it will travel in the first strike direction the military already does active drills with bullet style paintball rounds. They are more accurate but leave less of a mark then traditional paintballs... they also hurt a bit more but that can be fixed by changing the casing and such...

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#164 MMMerc

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Posted 29 April 2012 - 02:50 PM

I would venture to say it will travel in the first strike direction the military already does active drills with bullet style paintball rounds. They are more accurate but leave less of a mark then traditional paintballs... they also hurt a bit more but that can be fixed by changing the casing and such...


Theyve gone wayyy past that, ever heard of simunition? It's a wax or chalk bullet, can be used in any gun and has the accuracy and just a tad bit less range of a regular bullet. Very cool, but dangerous in close quarters.

Edited by MMMerc, 29 April 2012 - 02:51 PM.


#165 jps

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Posted 30 April 2012 - 09:27 AM

hurt a bit more


A bit? ;D
I've seen grown men cry from less, hehe. But i get what you're saying.

#166 turnburglar

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Posted 02 May 2012 - 11:39 PM


I would venture to say it will travel in the first strike direction the military already does active drills with bullet style paintball rounds. They are more accurate but leave less of a mark then traditional paintballs... they also hurt a bit more but that can be fixed by changing the casing and such...


Theyve gone wayyy past that, ever heard of simunition? It's a wax or chalk bullet, can be used in any gun and has the accuracy and just a tad bit less range of a regular bullet. Very cool, but dangerous in close quarters.


Sorry man but there's alot of untruths in that statement. The MAX effective range on Sims is 30-50 yards depending on which ones your shooting. We only have them for our m4s and m9s. And we ONLY use them for close range style engagement. As for pain I can't comment from 1st hand because I have never been shot in a scenario, but some of the females I shot up didn't mind too much. Sims also jam alot.

#167 spqr-king

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Posted 03 May 2012 - 11:34 AM


I would venture to say it will travel in the first strike direction the military already does active drills with bullet style paintball rounds. They are more accurate but leave less of a mark then traditional paintballs... they also hurt a bit more but that can be fixed by changing the casing and such...


Theyve gone wayyy past that, ever heard of simunition? It's a wax or chalk bullet, can be used in any gun and has the accuracy and just a tad bit less range of a regular bullet. Very cool, but dangerous in close quarters.


My friends a marine up near you guys and he sent me a picture of one of their "bullets" and brought one home it was pretty neat but basically a FS round but in a kinda metal casing looks like a 9mm but the tip has a plastic with fill. I think I have the picture somewhere...

Then again the military has the budget to create things like this, also they were using m16 like mock ups wouldnt be to hard to make it shoot a real bullet im guessing so I dont know... It would be hard to regulate something so close to the real thing and people could be hurt... perhaps why we dont have it already?

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#168 andrewthewookie

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Posted 03 May 2012 - 12:09 PM

Simunition isn't really a budget issue, just a safety issue. Yes, it can be used for training safely, but it's not something you want to put in the hands of regular people who don't know what they're doing. FS rounds are probably as close as we'll get to that and still stay at safe levels.

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#169 MMMerc

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Posted 03 May 2012 - 03:05 PM

understandably, these simulation rounds are very dangerous, especially up close.

#170 UV Halo

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Posted 03 May 2012 - 07:10 PM

... We only have them for our m4s and m9s...


Just to be clear, they are available in .38, 9mm and, 5.56mm

My friends a marine up near you guys and he sent me a picture of one of their "bullets" and brought one home it was pretty neat but basically a FS round but in a kinda metal casing looks like a 9mm but the tip has a plastic with fill. I think I have the picture somewhere...

Then again the military has the budget to create things like this, also they were using m16 like mock ups wouldnt be to hard to make it shoot a real bullet im guessing so I dont know... It would be hard to regulate something so close to the real thing and people could be hurt... perhaps why we dont have it already?


Posted Image

Theyve gone wayyy past that, ever heard of simunition? It's a wax or chalk bullet, can be used in any gun and has the accuracy and just a tad bit less range of a regular bullet. Very cool, but dangerous in close quarters.


Simunition isn't really a budget issue, just a safety issue. Yes, it can be used for training safely, but it's not something you want to put in the hands of regular people who don't know what they're doing. FS rounds are probably as close as we'll get to that and still stay at safe levels.


understandably, these simulation rounds are very dangerous, especially up close.


Just how are we defining "Safe" or "Dangerous"? Boxing and Football, even if played properly, with proper equipment are far more damaging and life threatening than paintball, and I'd bet the same applies to simunitions, given that individuals can be expected to take part in it as a component of their professional training.

I watched a full season (six episodes) of Special Ops Mission, which was conducted purely for entertainment purposes however, they were wearing tactical gear (nothing more than mil-sim airsofters do). I never saw any injuries, and the only 'protective' equipment was eyewear.

When paintball started, it was definitely not much safer. There were no chrono's, there were no specialized goggles. The first time I ever 'heard' of paintball I was getting a referral to a Tae Kwon Do studio from Simon Rhee and he described how he had recently attended a 'survival game'. He was shot once, in the leg, and it was the definition of blunt force trauma / laceration A big swollen wound that looked like his skin was erupting (vice weeping). Never the less, when I got the first issue of APG in '87, I read it to the point to where I had nearly memorized every article and, the ads. As soon as I had the money, I got myself a gun and convinced a couple of my other friends to do the same.

So, all that being said, I'd have no hesitation to join in a simunition game provided everyone involved received the proper training, had the appropriate equipment and had appropriate protective gear (face and ear for myself 'cause I do have to get in front of folks in my daily job).

#171 andrewthewookie

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Posted 03 May 2012 - 08:45 PM

So, all that being said, I'd have no hesitation to join in a simunition game provided everyone involved received the proper training, had the appropriate equipment and had appropriate protective gear (face and ear for myself 'cause I do have to get in front of folks in my daily job).

That's what I'm getting at though. It's not something you can just hand to anyone who steps onto the field (read: kids, renters, first timers, etc) and expect it to be the same level of safe like you can with paintball. However, if people know what they're doing, then it's just as safe.

I also watched Special Ops Missions, and enjoyed it. I would love to partake in a simunition game myself.

Edited by andrewthewookie, 03 May 2012 - 08:46 PM.

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#172 That Rich Paintballer

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Posted 04 May 2012 - 06:49 PM


One thing I have noticed also is that higher quality paintballs aren't going down in price, they're going up.

Paintball is going backwards as everything else is going forwards, higher tech phones are getting cheaper, computers for 3000 bucks today can destroy a 2,000 computer 4 years ago, and technoligy overall is getting smaller and cheaper.

But paintball? Its staying the same (and even getting worse) and getting more expensive. The largest cost in the game are the paintballs themselves, why do the high quality paintballs get more and more expensive?

If paintballs were 20 bucks a case for decent quality then that would be good enough for me and help paintball grow a hell of alot faster due to many people who cant play because of financial issues.


Well I hope so Posted Image


Pretty sure he said 300 :/

#173 Hzuiel

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Posted 07 May 2012 - 11:16 AM


Hydrotech is possibly moving in the right direction - we just need to wait and see if they can get the process to be economically viable.

As for FS rounds coming down in price - they already have. They're half of what they were when they came out. Based on materials and process I don't think there's a reason for them to come down in price. Loading and shooting mechanisms for them, yes, the actual projectiles, no.


Yeah coming down from ridiculous to merely unacceptable is obviously not what we're talking about here. They are still not economically viable as primary rounds for a majority of players; to be revolutionary they have a ways more to go. They remain a novelty.


I do wish they would come down a little bit, but i also wish paintball was free and i could do whatever i wanted for free. Thinking realistically, for what they are, the price isn't bad. 40 bucks for 100 rounds. If you're using them wisely that would last you longer than a case would last me, dumping my rotor over and over again at people in the woods hiding inbetween trees and possibly wiping. A case of paint at my field is 60 bucks for the cheap stuff. 40 is not bad.

Edited by hzuiel, 07 May 2012 - 11:17 AM.


#174 andrewthewookie

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Posted 07 May 2012 - 02:04 PM

The thing with FS rounds, is you can't look at them like normal paint. Sure, they seem expensive, but when you actually look and how much gets used in a game, the numbers come out different. Let's say, for a weekend scenario, I might go through 3-4 cases of paint. If they're $70 a case (that's about the average I've seen from many scenarios), then I'd spend around $210-280 on paint alone. Now, if I shot FS only for that event, I may use between 300-500 rounds, depending on how aggressive I was. At $40 a 100rd box, that's still only $120-200. It actually works out to be cheaper in the end.

Edited by andrewthewookie, 07 May 2012 - 02:05 PM.

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#175 UV Halo

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Posted 07 May 2012 - 02:39 PM

The thing with FS rounds, is you can't look at them like normal paint. Sure, they seem expensive, but when you actually look and how much gets used in a game, the numbers come out different. Let's say, for a weekend scenario, I might go through 3-4 cases of paint. If they're $70 a case (that's about the average I've seen from many scenarios), then I'd spend around $210-280 on paint alone. Now, if I shot FS only for that event, I may use between 300-500 rounds, depending on how aggressive I was. At $40 a 100rd box, that's still only $120-200. It actually works out to be cheaper in the end.


QFT. I have a couple of key data points that back this up based on my real-world usage:

Walk On game play at Warplay Paintball. This field allows full-auto, rents A-5s with RTs, and they do 2-4minute respawns in every 20-25min game. With my Woodstalker Ion, in a full day's worth of play I would go through 1.5 to 2 cases of paint. With FS rounds, I go through 1.5 to 2 boxes (100rds/box)

Living Legends 4- I brought nothing but 500 FS rounds, purchased from Rockstar Tactical. I fired 420 in the 1.5 days worth of play for just under $200. Many, if not most people at the event spent more than I did on paint.

#176 Hzuiel

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Posted 07 May 2012 - 04:04 PM

Although it's not a true technological advancement for paintball, it is an advancement that could change how markers are manufactured. It's 3D printing, and some people are calling it the 3rd Industrial Revolution. I'll let the video explain.

http://youtu.be/20R9nItDmPY


Compared to conventional manufacturing methods, 3D printing, either of metals or plastics, can offer a variety of advantages. One machine can be used to make a huge variety of objects, possibly every part of a gun, maybe even at the same time. It can do so without wasting the raw materials that you would mill off, and without needing to buy all the various, expensive specialized machines. It offers the possibility of levels of customization that come from small, expensive metal shops at factory prices. As the technology advances, it's also possible that work on this level could be done in someones home, let alone on a factory floor. You could possibly be able to manufacture your own spare parts, or even parts for guns that have long gone out of production, as all of the design is done digitally. You can even use digital scanners to create a 3d model of a real object, and then use a 3D printer to make a copy. There is a huge realm of possibilities for this technology, and it's growing rapidly. 3D printing has already been used to make airplane parts for Airbus, with remarkable results: lighter weight, lower cost, faster manufacture time. I would bet that 3D printing is going to start hitting paintball in the next 5 to 10 years at most, and when it does, it's going to change everything.


You say they're making airplane parts for airbus, so the parts have to be of good quality, but I just have to wonder from a metallurgical standpoint what the difference in quality would be to a machined part. Current manufacturing methods have been pulled together from what they found best creates the strongest parts. The grade of of the metal they start with makes a difference, and forging, tempering, milling, machining processes all change the metal. Certain metals I know actually resist sheer or abrasion and harden when they're milled so that the resulting surface after the milling is actually harder than what the metal was to start. Perhaps aluminum doesn't those same kind of quirks like steel does. Steel can vary wildly. Usually a steel tool from a high quality company is almost unbreakable, whereas cheap knockoffs will mushroom and throw off chunks and pieces, or be too brittle and actually crack instead of give a little. I know there are tricks to aluminum quality too, but perhaps not as finicky as steel, so aluminum parts of that quality level may be easier to make than a super high quailty steel part.

#177 Ir0nR0d09

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Posted 12 May 2012 - 09:52 AM

The only way paint will begin to drop in price is if it is mass produced by way more companies than there are now.

#178 MMMerc

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Posted 12 May 2012 - 03:30 PM

When I say simulation is "Dangerous" I'm speaking that if your within 10 to 15 feet, that shot will penetrate skin and lodge itself into your skin, thats why they dont do these things is CQB, it has the impact speed of a bullet (perhaps a bit less) so it requires training to use.

Edited by MMMerc, 12 May 2012 - 03:30 PM.


#179 sidthecraftycat

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Posted 12 May 2012 - 08:42 PM


The thing with FS rounds, is you can't look at them like normal paint. Sure, they seem expensive, but when you actually look and how much gets used in a game, the numbers come out different. Let's say, for a weekend scenario, I might go through 3-4 cases of paint. If they're $70 a case (that's about the average I've seen from many scenarios), then I'd spend around $210-280 on paint alone. Now, if I shot FS only for that event, I may use between 300-500 rounds, depending on how aggressive I was. At $40 a 100rd box, that's still only $120-200. It actually works out to be cheaper in the end.


QFT. I have a couple of key data points that back this up based on my real-world usage:

Walk On game play at Warplay Paintball. This field allows full-auto, rents A-5s with RTs, and they do 2-4minute respawns in every 20-25min game. With my Woodstalker Ion, in a full day's worth of play I would go through 1.5 to 2 cases of paint. With FS rounds, I go through 1.5 to 2 boxes (100rds/box)

Living Legends 4- I brought nothing but 500 FS rounds, purchased from Rockstar Tactical. I fired 420 in the 1.5 days worth of play for just under $200. Many, if not most people at the event spent more than I did on paint.


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#180 Teek

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Posted 13 May 2012 - 11:54 AM


Although it's not a true technological advancement for paintball, it is an advancement that could change how markers are manufactured. It's 3D printing, and some people are calling it the 3rd Industrial Revolution. I'll let the video explain.

http://youtu.be/20R9nItDmPY


Compared to conventional manufacturing methods, 3D printing, either of metals or plastics, can offer a variety of advantages. One machine can be used to make a huge variety of objects, possibly every part of a gun, maybe even at the same time. It can do so without wasting the raw materials that you would mill off, and without needing to buy all the various, expensive specialized machines. It offers the possibility of levels of customization that come from small, expensive metal shops at factory prices. As the technology advances, it's also possible that work on this level could be done in someones home, let alone on a factory floor. You could possibly be able to manufacture your own spare parts, or even parts for guns that have long gone out of production, as all of the design is done digitally. You can even use digital scanners to create a 3d model of a real object, and then use a 3D printer to make a copy. There is a huge realm of possibilities for this technology, and it's growing rapidly. 3D printing has already been used to make airplane parts for Airbus, with remarkable results: lighter weight, lower cost, faster manufacture time. I would bet that 3D printing is going to start hitting paintball in the next 5 to 10 years at most, and when it does, it's going to change everything.


You say they're making airplane parts for airbus, so the parts have to be of good quality, but I just have to wonder from a metallurgical standpoint what the difference in quality would be to a machined part. Current manufacturing methods have been pulled together from what they found best creates the strongest parts. The grade of of the metal they start with makes a difference, and forging, tempering, milling, machining processes all change the metal. Certain metals I know actually resist sheer or abrasion and harden when they're milled so that the resulting surface after the milling is actually harder than what the metal was to start. Perhaps aluminum doesn't those same kind of quirks like steel does. Steel can vary wildly. Usually a steel tool from a high quality company is almost unbreakable, whereas cheap knockoffs will mushroom and throw off chunks and pieces, or be too brittle and actually crack instead of give a little. I know there are tricks to aluminum quality too, but perhaps not as finicky as steel, so aluminum parts of that quality level may be easier to make than a super high quailty steel part.


I'd have to imagine that the quality would be very high. Perhaps you don't get the same results as machining those certain metals you mentioned, but I wouldn't put it past them. I do know that companies have been able to print parts for rolls royce jet engines and Formula 1 gearboxes using this process, so the 3D printing can produce parts that can withstand tremendous heat and strain. A lot of that has to do with design. I know the materials used for this one jet engine part are operate in temperatures higher than their melting point, but because of the intricate, perforated design that they came up with, these parts can still last millions of miles. Similarly, the new F1 gearboxes are more efficient than ever thanks to their design, which conventional milling could never do efficiently, if at all. While I'm not really qualified to fully judge the capabilities of 3D printing, I have to believe that they suit our needs for paintball, at the very least. Plus, I think, for paintball and many other common applications, 3D printing with plastic is going to be the future.

Here is a link to a 3D printing company, listing the materials that they use, as well as material properties, relative cost, lead time, etc. I'm no engineer, but most of these materials sound like they have the properties to handle the stress of paintball, at the very least.

Edited by Teek, 13 May 2012 - 11:55 AM.

Rest in Peace, Borg.

#181 Troy

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Posted 13 May 2012 - 03:55 PM

3D printing can be crazy pricey... I could see it being good for part runs that are really limited in quantity, where price is not a factor, but not much other than that.
\m/

#182 bassfisher

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Posted 13 May 2012 - 10:11 PM

How about a gun that does'nt shoot over 300fps
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#183 LUXOR54

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Posted 14 May 2012 - 08:14 AM

How about a gun that does'nt shoot over 300fps


do you mean a gun from factory that shoots permenantely at 290 fps?

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#184 turnburglar

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Posted 16 May 2012 - 11:31 PM

When I say simulation is "Dangerous" I'm speaking that if your within 10 to 15 feet, that shot will penetrate skin and lodge itself into your skin, thats why they dont do these things is CQB, it has the impact speed of a bullet (perhaps a bit less) so it requires training to use.


Again... I have ONLY used Sims in cqb "shoot/no shoot" scenarios. The accuracy from Sims is pretty crappy, and the pain factor seems to be greatly over exaggerated by civilian types. 15 feet is probably the farthest I have seen anyone shot from and no one complained after the moment about pain.


For the future I see rec ballers possibly looking into propane for easy access and more shots per fill. I heard it has way more potential energy than compressed air. Also the hydrotech technology would be awesome, for a better more environment friendly ball at cheaper price.

#185 bassfisher

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Posted 17 May 2012 - 01:51 AM


How about a gun that does'nt shoot over 300fps


do you mean a gun from factory that shoots permenantely at 290 fps?



Exactly, I figured if you put a set of eyes sideways and the board figured the speed over the "control" distance it could be possible in the next few years
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#186 woodsballer23

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Posted 18 May 2012 - 06:24 AM

Earlier on in this thread they were talking about projectiles like the first strike or paintball and how to improve them. Well why cant they make something like simunition which is a paintball that is shaped into a bullet. even though simunition is fired from a gun powder loaded shell the concept of the paintball bullet is still there

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#187 Egomaniacal

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Posted 20 May 2012 - 10:20 AM

That's what a First Strike round is.

Someone needs to come up with a similar round that fields don't mind people using. They're banned at a lot of fields I go to because the shells just sit around for years unless you pick them up by hand.
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#188 bronc

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Posted 23 May 2012 - 08:16 AM

After reading this thread, you guys will really want to check out our new gun when it's done :D



But I really think the only way to save paintball is for cockerpunk and bryce to sacrifice themselves to the paintball gods by playing the next psp event, naked, running to the 50 off the break every game, while carrying a giant picture of me! Posted Image
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