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#1 obsidianjeff

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Posted 11 February 2012 - 02:18 AM

so I have been wondering how the ninja Super Low Pressure reg is able to give a g6r (can't think of other guns that claim better efficiency from the output, doesn't mean there aren't others) better efficiency. the way I see it, there's the same amount of air in the tank either way, and the high and low pressure regulators on the gun are making sure the same amount of air is coming out of the bolt. so how does the SLP allow for more air efficiency?

I can understand the "being easier on orings" argument, I just don't understand how there is less air usage.

pretty much asking to find out if its really worth it to get an slp reg or keep on my current reg (outputting ~550 psi)

#2 Latsabb

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Posted 11 February 2012 - 02:23 AM

From what I was told, and this could be totally wrong, as I also dont understand it, is that the HPR is designed to flow better at lower pressures. Other regulators dont flow and recharge as well with the SLP because the pressure is too low, but the HPR on the G6R allows a better, more consistent flow, so that there isnt as much wasted air when getting the FPS needed. As I said, this is what someone told me, and I took it at face value, since it is the only actual explanation I have been given. It is quite possibly wrong.
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#3 brycelarson

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Posted 11 February 2012 - 08:45 AM

The guys at Ninja told us they knew - but wouldn't give us details.

Here's my guess - Think of the pressure in the gun moving like a wave. Each reg seat or valve is a place that stops the wave. When the pressure wave hits each one of them some of it bounces off and ripples back through the system. That pressure echo wastes energy. If the SLP feeds the gun at the same rate that the pressure wave flows through the gun there is less pressure echo - therefore less energy loss.

#4 Troy

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Posted 11 February 2012 - 10:17 AM

The guys at Ninja told us they knew - but wouldn't give us details.

Here's my guess - Think of the pressure in the gun moving like a wave. Each reg seat or valve is a place that stops the wave. When the pressure wave hits each one of them some of it bounces off and ripples back through the system. That pressure echo wastes energy. If the SLP feeds the gun at the same rate that the pressure wave flows through the gun there is less pressure echo - therefore less energy loss.


I want to see some proof that the marker isn't being, simply, just starved for air... before I believe a more complicated explanation like that. I haven't seen anything that shows the fps of individual balls at a high rate of fire through that marker. I've asked several times for the data, but no one seems to either 1) have it, or 2) want to publish it. I could be blind... if anyone wants to point me towards something that I've missed, I am 100% interested.
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#5 Cookybiscuit

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Posted 11 February 2012 - 11:38 AM

I was told it had something to do with lower pressure air traveling faster, so valves can be set to open at exact forces so no air is wasted. Dont know if thats true.

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#6 mr.satire

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Posted 11 February 2012 - 04:02 PM

I was told it had something to do with lower pressure air traveling faster, so valves can be set to open at exact forces so no air is wasted. Dont know if thats true.


Nope the air doesn't move at a higher velocity with a lower pressure. From what I understand of fluid dynamics, the most likly cause of the efficiency is the pressure wave theory.

#7 Cookybiscuit

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Posted 11 February 2012 - 04:11 PM


I was told it had something to do with lower pressure air traveling faster, so valves can be set to open at exact forces so no air is wasted. Dont know if thats true.


Nope the air doesn't move at a higher velocity with a lower pressure. From what I understand of fluid dynamics, the most likly cause of the efficiency is the pressure wave theory.

Found the thing I got it it off, PBN.

"Bob did this with the idea that low pressure air has a higher velocity (bernoulli's principle) and thus you can open valves with less air if you use internal parts that are designed to function at that lower pressure. The theory is less shootdown. Additionally since the G6R's operating pressure is already low, it really doesn't make sense to input air at 450 psi down to around 180 psi. Again, in theory, the less you change the air pressure, the less disturbances you have in airflow. What Bob is trying to do with his guns as of recent, is use different pressures, valve timings and porting and polishing techniques to try and really maximize the efficiency you can get out of a gun. With the G6R, it appears he has achieved this (although we are sort of uncertain of which of these factors is playing the biggest role)."

Meh?

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#8 drg

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Posted 11 February 2012 - 05:51 PM

Is it proven that it is more efficient? by how much?
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#9 Troy

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Posted 11 February 2012 - 08:43 PM

Is it proven that it is more efficient? by how much?


There is a video of Bob Long shooting a G6R with an SLP and emptying a whole bunch of pods... similar to Mike's efficiency test. This is the "proof." While I think that style of test is a beneficial, but really rough test... I'm not going to be formulating any opinions until I see some more data.
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#10 KCMECustoms

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Posted 11 February 2012 - 09:59 PM

^Bob also was using a 70ci tank cold filled.

#11 ic3man211

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Posted 11 February 2012 - 10:29 PM

bernoullis principle applys to faster air having less air pressure not less airpressure equals more spped. tis speed is due to the air having to travel farther over the upper surface of the wing
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#12 IhasAcellular

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Posted 11 February 2012 - 11:24 PM


Is it proven that it is more efficient? by how much?


There is a video of Bob Long shooting a G6R with an SLP and emptying a whole bunch of pods... similar to Mike's efficiency test. This is the "proof." While I think that style of test is a beneficial, but really rough test... I'm not going to be formulating any opinions until I see some more data.


Pretty sure Gordon and Bryce tested it as well.....I would look for it on their website, but Im afraid of them porno viruses that apparently reside there Posted Image

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#13 drg

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Posted 12 February 2012 - 01:28 AM

Is it this?

https://spreadsheets...NUE&hl=en&gid=0
https://spreadsheets...SWc&hl=en&gid=0

A 4 shot difference? Is that a significant difference?

Edited by drg, 12 February 2012 - 01:29 AM.

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#14 brycelarson

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Posted 12 February 2012 - 06:48 AM

Is it this?

https://spreadsheets...NUE&hl=en&gid=0
https://spreadsheets...SWc&hl=en&gid=0

A 4 shot difference? Is that a significant difference?


yup, those are the results. As to significance - I think so. I'm not positive. I think I did the test a total of 6 times - three with each setup. It was consistent that the SLP got 4-5% more shots - but yes, the number is extremely small on a tank this size.

Anyone who's better with stats than me want to run the confidence interval on those numbers with a sample size of 3 for each?

#15 Troy

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Posted 12 February 2012 - 07:43 AM

Is it this?

https://spreadsheets...NUE&hl=en&gid=0
https://spreadsheets...SWc&hl=en&gid=0

A 4 shot difference? Is that a significant difference?


Well I guess that answers that... I'm just blind :rolleyes:

yup, those are the results. As to significance - I think so. I'm not positive. I think I did the test a total of 6 times - three with each setup. It was consistent that the SLP got 4-5% more shots - but yes, the number is extremely small on a tank this size.

Anyone who's better with stats than me want to run the confidence interval on those numbers with a sample size of 3 for each?


What were the final results of all of the tests? I'm assuming that the 98 and 102 numbers are averages right?
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#16 drg

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Posted 12 February 2012 - 10:25 PM


Is it this?

https://spreadsheets...NUE&hl=en&gid=0
https://spreadsheets...SWc&hl=en&gid=0

A 4 shot difference? Is that a significant difference?


yup, those are the results. As to significance - I think so. I'm not positive. I think I did the test a total of 6 times - three with each setup. It was consistent that the SLP got 4-5% more shots - but yes, the number is extremely small on a tank this size.

Anyone who's better with stats than me want to run the confidence interval on those numbers with a sample size of 3 for each?


What did the distribution of the 6 look like? Were there any that showed no or perhaps inverted difference?
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#17 sticktodrum

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Posted 13 February 2012 - 12:06 AM

^Bob also was using a 70ci tank cold filled.


And his "pods" were holding 75-100 balls each.
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#18 brycelarson

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Posted 13 February 2012 - 10:55 AM

What did the distribution of the 6 look like? Were there any that showed no or perhaps inverted difference?


I;ll see if I can find the data. I remember being shocked at how consistent it was - as in, there was little to no variation per sample.

#19 xincognitopbx

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Posted 16 February 2012 - 05:05 PM

Regarding that wave theory, considering other guns 'work' on SLP too, why don't they achieve better efficiency.

I found somewhere that the SLPs have better efficiency because they output 275psi. Thus the backpressure in the tank isn't less than the pressure outputted. Therefore with a reg outputting 850 psi, you would start to see shootdown after your gauge reads <850. Whereas with an SLP, you wouldn't start to see shootdown until 275psi.

That theory above is far fetched, but it made sense when someone said it. Also to add to that, I know guns work on 180psi most of the time, but I don't feel that a reg that's supposed to output 850psi could fare well when the backpressure is less than that. I just feel like it wouldn't recharge as fast and that's what made the theory believable.

However I say we boycott ninja products until they tell us.

But the Ego 11 is shiny. :(

Dosent the Ego 11 only come in dust colours?

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#20 blckninja

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Posted 16 February 2012 - 05:16 PM

Is it this?

https://spreadsheets...NUE&hl=en&gid=0
https://spreadsheets...SWc&hl=en&gid=0

A 4 shot difference? Is that a significant difference?


I would like to point out that 4 shots may not be a significant difference, the fact that manufactures are adopting different theories and implementing them into paintballing shows that there is still more to be learned and done with guns.

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#21 Troy

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Posted 17 February 2012 - 09:30 AM


Is it this?

https://spreadsheets...NUE&hl=en&gid=0
https://spreadsheets...SWc&hl=en&gid=0

A 4 shot difference? Is that a significant difference?


I would like to point out that 4 shots may not be a significant difference, the fact that manufactures are adopting different theories and implementing them into paintballing shows that there is still more to be learned and done with guns.


He's right to ask though, depending on how other tests fared, a 4 shot difference could very well be within the margin of error. Bryce says that other tests were dead on with those values, and I believe that... but I would still like to see the results of other tests as well.
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#22 cockerpunk

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Posted 17 February 2012 - 09:41 AM

Regarding that wave theory, considering other guns 'work' on SLP too, why don't they achieve better efficiency.

I found somewhere that the SLPs have better efficiency because they output 275psi. Thus the backpressure in the tank isn't less than the pressure outputted. Therefore with a reg outputting 850 psi, you would start to see shootdown after your gauge reads <850. Whereas with an SLP, you wouldn't start to see shootdown until 275psi.

That theory above is far fetched, but it made sense when someone said it. Also to add to that, I know guns work on 180psi most of the time, but I don't feel that a reg that's supposed to output 850psi could fare well when the backpressure is less than that. I just feel like it wouldn't recharge as fast and that's what made the theory believable.

However I say we boycott ninja products until they tell us.


ninja told us other guns do, mostly other poppet valve guns do.

has not been tested to my knowledge though.
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#23 Cap'n Biff

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Posted 17 February 2012 - 10:08 AM

Sounds like the principle of impedance matching in electronics; less return loss the closer the pressures match tank-to-reg-to-marker. Maybe?
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#24 Doyle

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Posted 07 March 2012 - 12:40 AM

What does that efficiency difference mean in terms of a 68/45 tank? if its anything less then a pod who cares?

Also you're gun only needs to be as efficient as you are far away from a fill station.

Example: You shoot 3 pods & hopper in X-ball point.. air station is in pit, you're golden!
You shoot 12+ pods in a nppl 7-man game, refill after each game... gun type & tank size start to matter. (ie your etha & 68/45 wont cut it)
You play all day out in woods & they don't have a fill station.. better get an efficient gun or a 2nd tank!

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#25 brycelarson

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Posted 08 March 2012 - 10:12 AM

What does that efficiency difference mean in terms of a 68/45 tank? if its anything less then a pod who cares?

Also you're gun only needs to be as efficient as you are far away from a fill station.

Example: You shoot 3 pods & hopper in X-ball point.. air station is in pit, you're golden!
You shoot 12+ pods in a nppl 7-man game, refill after each game... gun type & tank size start to matter. (ie your etha & 68/45 wont cut it)
You play all day out in woods & they don't have a fill station.. better get an efficient gun or a 2nd tank!



difference based on this test is theoretical 2402 shots from a perfect 4.5k fill on a 68 tank with the SLP and 2307 with the standard reg. You're looking at just under a pod - less with a non-perfect fill.

#26 Doyle

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Posted 10 March 2012 - 12:13 AM

theoretical


Hmm, sounds like some real world testing should be done.

Enter: Punkworks

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#27 Troy

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Posted 10 March 2012 - 07:56 AM


theoretical


Hmm, sounds like some real world testing should be done.

Enter: Punkworks


That test was based off a real world test.
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#28 brycelarson

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Posted 10 March 2012 - 08:32 AM

That test was based off a real world test.


right, it's a theoretical total based on real world testing.

#29 Mrob1995

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Posted 16 March 2012 - 03:55 PM

I know that this thread has kind of moved beyond here at this point but, I just wanted to throw in my two bits about bernouli's principle. I'm no professional, but I am currently in a physics class and as far as I know Bernoulli's principle does not apply to gas under high pressures.
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#30 xincognitopbx

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Posted 16 March 2012 - 04:40 PM

I dont know if im right, but i think that gas when its entering/going through the barrel, isnt really that high of presssure at all and thats why it applies.

Edited by xincognitopbx, 16 March 2012 - 04:40 PM.

But the Ego 11 is shiny. :(

Dosent the Ego 11 only come in dust colours?

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#31 Doyle

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Posted 18 March 2012 - 10:11 AM


That test was based off a real world test.


right, it's a theoretical total based on real world testing.


still theoretical, only real way to know is to do it.

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#32 Troy

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Posted 18 March 2012 - 02:42 PM



That test was based off a real world test.


right, it's a theoretical total based on real world testing.


still theoretical, only real way to know is to do it.


*sigh*

We already know.
\m/




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