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#51 drg

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Posted 07 March 2012 - 05:48 PM

The only thing that makes me a little skeptical of dismissing things as simply placebo or purely perception is that paintball has a pass-fail answer to the accuracy question, it's not simply judgment of degree of accuracy but hitting or not hitting a target. So the mind has an important cue for organizing its analysis of accuracy, that being whether you eliminate the target or not. Over time it should become apparent if a lack of accuracy is negatively affecting effectiveness in eliminating opponents.
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#52 Danny D

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Posted 07 March 2012 - 06:24 PM

The only thing that makes me a little skeptical of dismissing things as simply placebo or purely perception is that paintball has a pass-fail answer to the accuracy question, it's not simply judgment of degree of accuracy but hitting or not hitting a target. So the mind has an important cue for organizing its analysis of accuracy, that being whether you eliminate the target or not. Over time it should become apparent if a lack of accuracy is negatively affecting effectiveness in eliminating opponents.


True, but the amount of factors the accuracy is due to is astounding. It can be literally anything from technique, to wind that day that can cause you to miss an opponent. The purpose of an experiment is to control these variables to some degree to standardise comparisons. It would be unfair to blame a paint for your poor accuracy that day without some sort of test. People are more willing to blame the equiptment than themselves. Ego is rampant in the paintball community and provides overwhelming bias in making inference on perspective as you are suggesting.

#53 drg

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Posted 07 March 2012 - 07:53 PM

I was just thinking, what we do during paintball games is very, very far from controlled testing and observation. For example, we will almost never be shooting at a flat surface that would catch all our shots in a given string of shots ... if anything you might have bunker in one direction, but in others, just air. A ball that misses and flies off is very difficult to compare to one that hits the bunker and splatters, it's hard to judge the plane and even see where the ball is in relation to the target, as a splat is probably at least 5x the diameter of the ball itself. A lot of what we do in paintball, especially at long ranges, is more like indirect fire, where we really aren't aiming directly at the target. We usually can't walk up to the target and check it out after we are done firing ;)

Then there are a lot of paintball situations where you don't see the impact point at all. Arc/blind shots and fast snapping come to mind. And when we are close enough to observe the exact performance of several balls, it is usually at a close enough range where the setup is quite precise, minimizing the performance difference between balls even if there is more downrange spread.

Hmm.

Edited by drg, 07 March 2012 - 07:54 PM.

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#54 cockerpunk

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Posted 07 March 2012 - 09:27 PM


people do notice a significant different in accuracy ... the problem is they attributed it to the wrong stuff for the most part. once the mind thinks it has a pattern, it will obviously attempt to fit any new information into that pattern. alla cocker are more accurate, pumps are more accurate, different barrels are more accurate ....


Is there empirical evidence of this? I mean most of that stuff has not been considered current for years, and it's because people noticed it wasn't true.


empirical evidence that people misassocate gun features with increases in performance?

have you EVER been on a paintball forum?
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And yes, Gordon is the sexiest manifestation of "to the front."


#55 drg

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Posted 07 March 2012 - 10:17 PM



people do notice a significant different in accuracy ... the problem is they attributed it to the wrong stuff for the most part. once the mind thinks it has a pattern, it will obviously attempt to fit any new information into that pattern. alla cocker are more accurate, pumps are more accurate, different barrels are more accurate ....


Is there empirical evidence of this? I mean most of that stuff has not been considered current for years, and it's because people noticed it wasn't true.


empirical evidence that people misassocate gun features with increases in performance?

have you EVER been on a paintball forum?


I see a lot of disagreement on paintball forums, when it comes to misinterpreting things. But this difference is supposedly real and significant. Why is there no consensus about it?
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#56 Troy

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Posted 07 March 2012 - 11:42 PM

I must agree with troy on this one despite his rather shitty response.


I made the same arguments you just did a while ago, DRG is just repeating the same question over and over and over again... no further explanation is warranted.

This thread has become a study into psychology, not science, or philosophy.

Edited by Troy, 07 March 2012 - 11:45 PM.

\m/

#57 drg

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Posted 08 March 2012 - 12:51 AM

I ask because people keep trying to avoid answering by talking around it. The simple fact remains, there is supposedly a real and consistent difference. That can't be compared to for example closed bolt or pump since those are not real and consistent differences, so the mind is free to make something up.
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#58 Troy

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Posted 08 March 2012 - 07:52 AM

I ask because people keep trying to avoid answering by talking around it. The simple fact remains, there is supposedly a real and consistent difference. That can't be compared to for example closed bolt or pump since those are not real and consistent differences, so the mind is free to make something up.


Quit saying "supposedly," there IS a difference, we've seen it, we've recorded it, we've tested it, end of story.

I couldn't care less why the masses haven't come to the same conclusions that we have, after all, relying on the majority's opinion as a gauge for truth is an ad populous logical fallacy. There are people that still believe that the holocaust didn't happen, and that evolution doesn't occur. After Galileo proved the earth revolves around the sun, no one believed him. Einstein's theory of relativity was hard to adopt because it's conclusions were so counter intuitive, etc...

I think you should stop worrying about WHY people don't believe what is clearly laid out before them, people have a long standing history of being wrong about all sorts of things.
\m/

#59 cockerpunk

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Posted 08 March 2012 - 09:46 AM




people do notice a significant different in accuracy ... the problem is they attributed it to the wrong stuff for the most part. once the mind thinks it has a pattern, it will obviously attempt to fit any new information into that pattern. alla cocker are more accurate, pumps are more accurate, different barrels are more accurate ....


Is there empirical evidence of this? I mean most of that stuff has not been considered current for years, and it's because people noticed it wasn't true.


empirical evidence that people misassocate gun features with increases in performance?

have you EVER been on a paintball forum?


I see a lot of disagreement on paintball forums, when it comes to misinterpreting things. But this difference is supposedly real and significant. Why is there no consensus about it?


because they either:

1. never thought to test it themselves
2. don't know how to test it
3. never thought anyone would or could test it
4. never seen the tests on it
5. disagree with any of the tests they have seen on it

i would disagree with your assessment that there is no consensus. punkworks and other folks tests have really become a compelling case, and its slowly making its way across the internet and down to the local fields.

Edited by cockerpunk, 08 March 2012 - 09:46 AM.

The ultimate truth in paintball is that the interaction between the gun and the player is far and away the largest factor in accuracy, consistency, and reliability.

And yes, Gordon is the sexiest manifestation of "to the front."


#60 brycelarson

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Posted 08 March 2012 - 09:59 AM

My guess would be three-fold

First - we've all had good days and bad days at the field. I know that some days I murder people and some days I can't hit crap. I usually attribute that to too much to drink the previous night, slight head-cold or something along those lines. It's entirely possible that there were real variations in paint and the fact that I'm a very good shot with a paintball gun means that when I happened to get good paint I "played" better.

Second - and this is my main hypothesis - paint in general has a shitty QC process. We have no proven that there can be differences in the ballistic performance of various paints - but we haven't tested to what extent you can extrapolate that out to paint brands and specific paints. In other words one batch of brand X might be significantly better than one batch of brand Y - but two months later when your field gets the next truck from both X and Y might prove to have equivalent performance. As with all of our testing - until we have a significant sample size it's dangerous to extrapolate too generalizations.

Next - people tend to choose gear based on personal choice - they tend to buy paint based on either brand recognition or price OR whatever the hell the field has when they show up. It seems to me that the people that spend the most time hunting certain brands are two set - Pumpers and renegade/low budget ballers. Those two groups pay extra attention to paint. The pumpers know that paint matters and those shooting brass have to find the fattest balls they can get their greasy hands on. The group looking for the cheapest plastic tubs of paint they can find at the local sport-mega-mart have made the specific decision to choose price first. Pretty much everyone else just walks up to the counter and says "give me a case of paint" and the field owner either hands them one or asks "want the good stuff?" meaning the slightly more expensive ball made by the same company on the same machines.

All three of those lead to an obvious blind spot in paint selection - which is funny. Overall the vast majority of the $$$ spent and the enjoyment attained in this game is due to the paint - but people really just don't talk about it that much. Go look at the equipment advice section - there will be a few people asking about paint - but the question is usually what's the best paint for $30 - meaning, can I get away with buying white box shite.

I'm going to put a survey up in paintball chatter asking about paint selection. I'm curious what people will say.

Edited by brycelarson, 08 March 2012 - 09:59 AM.


#61 brycelarson

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Posted 08 March 2012 - 10:05 AM

http://www.techpb.co...opic=185613&st=

poll is up

#62 The_Economist

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Posted 08 March 2012 - 11:32 AM

Bryce mentioned this, but I thought it bears repeating. It's hard to single out a great brand or line of paint since the paint quality varies from batch to batch. Two years ago, I though I hit the gold mine of price vs. performance with Formula 13. This stuff was awesome, it broke easily, it shot straight, and it was priced right in the middle range (my field offers a range of 7 paints). I used it consistently for three events, and it always impressed me. However, once my field got a new shipment of it, it wasn't the same. The shell was thicker and dimples were more prevalent. It wouldn't break and it seemed much less accurate. So, over the course of four months, a paint went from awesome to crap, even though it was made by the same company, packaged in the same box, and sold for the same price. I have seen this happen with every brand of paint I have ever tried. None of them are very consistent. Remember the "Evil" at LL3? It was absolute horseshit but it sure looked like Evil.

Maybe players can't form a consensus because paint doesn't stay the same.



#63 brycelarson

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Posted 08 March 2012 - 11:36 AM

None of them are very consistent. Remember the "Evil" at LL3? It was absolute horseshit but it sure looked like Evil.


yup - the Evil at LL3 was so bouncy that by the end of the second day I was hardly even checking myself for hits unless it hit something hard. They were bouncing off everything - knees, elbows, even mask lenses - and that was $80/case high priced paint.

We're talking, trucking temps, storage conditions, humidity etc. A while back we also had conversations with a few paint companies - and they continually change their formulas depending on what time of year it is. The paint will actually intentionally change as well as the unintentional changes based on all kinds of other things.

#64 The_Economist

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Posted 08 March 2012 - 11:41 AM

I actually still have a bag of the LL3 paint sitting on my shelf. It's a little dimpled now, but I am hanging on to it for science.


#65 MMMerc

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Posted 08 March 2012 - 12:25 PM

I actually still have a bag of the LL3 paint sitting on my shelf. It's a little dimpled now, but I am hanging on to it for science.


FOR SCIENCE!!!! :P sorry guys i had to.

#66 Jaccen

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Posted 08 March 2012 - 01:13 PM

Maybe it's time I tried out Troy's idea of a rotating bucket to "debur" paintballs. A before and after.

http://www.techpb.co...dpost&p=2472633


I've even got some year old paint I could do a worst-case scenario on. I've got year-old rec grade that was super brittle last weekend (it's cold up here), paint that's probably 3 years old, and access to newer paint.

What criteria would people want? I'd only be able to do this once.

MATERIALS:
-chrono (yellow hand-held)
-marker (Spyder Electra 09)
-bench with vice
-paint (different brands)
-hpa source (Crossfire 68/4500 psi)
-remote line to take some back weight off the marker
-airsoft bb's
-bucket with tumbling stand
-thermometer
-sheet of plywood with measured marks on it from centre
-digital callipers
-protractor (roughly measure marker inclination off the horizon just for giggles)
-plum bob
-measuring chain
-indoor shed
-camera (no camcorder available)

TESTS
25 shots per type
1. Cheap paint "stock" and tumbled
2. Expensive paint "stock" and tumbled
3. Paint tumbled at different time intervals (ie. same paint, some tumbled at 5min, 10min, 15min, etc.)
4. Hand sanding the seam of cheap and expensive paint
5. Sorting by size (either by freak inserts or by alpha's Rev. C "cherry" sorter......or both as a comparison)
6. Different polishing agents (ie. bb's or.........?)


SETUP:
1. Clamp marker in vice
2. Hook up remote line
3. Chain off 50 or 75ft. (it'll depend on how much equipment is in the shop)
4. Place target plywood
5. Pods will be marked with what type/"finish" of paint
6. Fire each measuring chrono and vector values for each shot. Temp recorded at the beginning of each 25 shot run.
7. Put data in excel
8. Post


LIMITATIONS:
1. I've only got access to a yellow hand-held chrono
2. I'm really only willing to place my old Spyder in a vice
3. I can do the 50ft. easily. 75ft maybe if I move equipment out. Is 75ft. the "standard" for these tests?
4. I'm out in the boonies. I'll only have access to scuba hpa. I'll fill the tank to 1000psi before each run.
5. I'll have to polish the paint over time and do the experiment on one weekend.
6. I'm married with a kid and a job. Don't expect a super huge financial or time commitment here, guys.
7. This will take at least 2 months worth of weekends. See #6 above.

QUESTIONS:
1. Standard distance for tests?
2. Standard inclination? I'm presuming "when the paint hits the target."
3. Other polishing agents? I can think of airsoft bb's but I'm in the dark about others. I think the wife has some craft wooden beads I could also use. Any others you can think of?
4. What's the consensus on the "high end" paint to use? If I could get away buying 500 rounds or less that would be great as the budget's minimal here.
5. Other questions or comments?

Thanks.

#67 Troy

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Posted 08 March 2012 - 01:31 PM

I was, actually, just thinking about that...

I don't think the distance matters too much, just make sure you shoot your paintballs at a grid and record the x and y coordinates of your hits, from there, we can calculate vectors.

I would add that the hit positions are even more important than the speed over the chrono.
\m/

#68 cockerpunk

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Posted 08 March 2012 - 02:18 PM

I actually still have a bag of the LL3 paint sitting on my shelf. It's a little dimpled now, but I am hanging on to it for science.


not very scientific, but a game of "will it come out my barrel?" is fun every once in a while.
The ultimate truth in paintball is that the interaction between the gun and the player is far and away the largest factor in accuracy, consistency, and reliability.

And yes, Gordon is the sexiest manifestation of "to the front."


#69 drg

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Posted 08 March 2012 - 02:57 PM

Bryce mentioned this, but I thought it bears repeating. It's hard to single out a great brand or line of paint since the paint quality varies from batch to batch. Two years ago, I though I hit the gold mine of price vs. performance with Formula 13. This stuff was awesome, it broke easily, it shot straight, and it was priced right in the middle range (my field offers a range of 7 paints). I used it consistently for three events, and it always impressed me. However, once my field got a new shipment of it, it wasn't the same. The shell was thicker and dimples were more prevalent. It wouldn't break and it seemed much less accurate. So, over the course of four months, a paint went from awesome to crap, even though it was made by the same company, packaged in the same box, and sold for the same price. I have seen this happen with every brand of paint I have ever tried. None of them are very consistent. Remember the "Evil" at LL3? It was absolute horseshit but it sure looked like Evil.

Maybe players can't form a consensus because paint doesn't stay the same.


I actually touched on this in post #24 before bryce brought it up. I guess since it was a direct response to someone else it went unnoticed. Though my post was more about freshness and storage, indeed two batches of the same paint can perform very differently and I think a big clue is the inconsistency of bore sizes from region to region or batch to batch. So if I shot a poor performing ball, I tend to chalk it up to age or handling. That is the trend I have seen.

Which of course begs the question -- if there is this much variation in ball performance for other reasons, how is this accounted for in testing and perhaps more importantly, analysis?

Edited by drg, 08 March 2012 - 02:58 PM.

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#70 cockerpunk

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Posted 08 March 2012 - 04:51 PM


Bryce mentioned this, but I thought it bears repeating. It's hard to single out a great brand or line of paint since the paint quality varies from batch to batch. Two years ago, I though I hit the gold mine of price vs. performance with Formula 13. This stuff was awesome, it broke easily, it shot straight, and it was priced right in the middle range (my field offers a range of 7 paints). I used it consistently for three events, and it always impressed me. However, once my field got a new shipment of it, it wasn't the same. The shell was thicker and dimples were more prevalent. It wouldn't break and it seemed much less accurate. So, over the course of four months, a paint went from awesome to crap, even though it was made by the same company, packaged in the same box, and sold for the same price. I have seen this happen with every brand of paint I have ever tried. None of them are very consistent. Remember the "Evil" at LL3? It was absolute horseshit but it sure looked like Evil.

Maybe players can't form a consensus because paint doesn't stay the same.


I actually touched on this in post #24 before bryce brought it up. I guess since it was a direct response to someone else it went unnoticed. Though my post was more about freshness and storage, indeed two batches of the same paint can perform very differently and I think a big clue is the inconsistency of bore sizes from region to region or batch to batch. So if I shot a poor performing ball, I tend to chalk it up to age or handling. That is the trend I have seen.

Which of course begs the question -- if there is this much variation in ball performance for other reasons, how is this accounted for in testing and perhaps more importantly, analysis?


by looking at measurable features of the ball:

sphericalness (sphereiocisty?)
consistency
seam size
brittleness

ultimately what matters is not the label on the box, or even the machine it came off of, its physical features that we can measure and test with.
The ultimate truth in paintball is that the interaction between the gun and the player is far and away the largest factor in accuracy, consistency, and reliability.

And yes, Gordon is the sexiest manifestation of "to the front."


#71 invictus

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Posted 08 March 2012 - 05:30 PM

yes, 2-3 inches of spread would be good. enough to increase your chance of hitting the target, but still accurate

#72 drg

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Posted 08 March 2012 - 06:27 PM

yes, 2-3 inches of spread would be good. enough to increase your chance of hitting the target, but still accurate


And we are officially full circle ;)
So the initial thought -- does it actually increase your chance of hitting your target to reduce the spread, particularly for the accuracy-by-volume types who would be looking at lower-end paint? Is there anything to the idea of the shotgun effect?

Edited by drg, 08 March 2012 - 06:27 PM.

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#73 cockerpunk

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Posted 08 March 2012 - 07:34 PM


yes, 2-3 inches of spread would be good. enough to increase your chance of hitting the target, but still accurate


And we are officially full circle ;)
So the initial thought -- does it actually increase your chance of hitting your target to reduce the spread, particularly for the accuracy-by-volume types who would be looking at lower-end paint? Is there anything to the idea of the shotgun effect?


when you can shoot a 2 inch pattern at 125 feet, let me know if that shotgun effect matters.
The ultimate truth in paintball is that the interaction between the gun and the player is far and away the largest factor in accuracy, consistency, and reliability.

And yes, Gordon is the sexiest manifestation of "to the front."


#74 Molybdenum

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Posted 08 March 2012 - 09:27 PM

sphericalness (sphereiocisty?)



Sphericity.

I really want to see if tumble polishing helps. It would be great if it did, because it seems it would be rather easy to implement on an industrial, or at least very large, scale.

#75 brycelarson

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Posted 11 March 2012 - 11:30 AM

here are the two survey posts:

http://www.techpb.co...pic=185613&st=0

http://www.mcarterbr...tml#post2252029

I'll give it a week then we can discuss how it applies (or doesn't) to this question.

So far I would point out that the current winner on TPB - is choosing the best paint that is still cheap - indicating that price is a bigger determining factor than performance - while it's slightly the other way over on MCB. That might simply be a variation in playing habits between the sites.

#76 cockerpunk

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Posted 11 March 2012 - 06:32 PM

here are the two survey posts:

http://www.techpb.co...pic=185613&st=0

http://www.mcarterbr...tml#post2252029

I'll give it a week then we can discuss how it applies (or doesn't) to this question.

So far I would point out that the current winner on TPB - is choosing the best paint that is still cheap - indicating that price is a bigger determining factor than performance - while it's slightly the other way over on MCB. That might simply be a variation in playing habits between the sites.


on the whole im impressed by the numbers of folks voting for quality vs price, or at least making quality at least some priority.
The ultimate truth in paintball is that the interaction between the gun and the player is far and away the largest factor in accuracy, consistency, and reliability.

And yes, Gordon is the sexiest manifestation of "to the front."


#77 Troy

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Posted 11 March 2012 - 07:37 PM

on the whole im impressed by the numbers of folks voting for quality vs price, or at least making quality at least some priority.


I agree... it's surprising to me.
\m/

#78 drg

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Posted 12 March 2012 - 12:21 AM

here are the two survey posts:

http://www.techpb.co...pic=185613&st=0

http://www.mcarterbr...tml#post2252029

I'll give it a week then we can discuss how it applies (or doesn't) to this question.

So far I would point out that the current winner on TPB - is choosing the best paint that is still cheap - indicating that price is a bigger determining factor than performance - while it's slightly the other way over on MCB. That might simply be a variation in playing habits between the sites.


I'm not so sure that doesn't say the opposite, that performance is essential regardless of price. I kind of wish you hadn't put that option because it's kind of a cop-out option, not really the same kind of "bucket" as the other selections.

But anyway, this is kind of the point I'm trying to make. Most people that play paintball fairly regularly pay at least some attention to paint performance. So in a way every game is a subjective test of ball performance.

Edited by drg, 12 March 2012 - 12:22 AM.

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#79 brycelarson

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Posted 12 March 2012 - 07:31 AM

I'm not so sure that doesn't say the opposite, that performance is essential regardless of price. I kind of wish you hadn't put that option because it's kind of a cop-out option, not really the same kind of "bucket" as the other selections.

But anyway, this is kind of the point I'm trying to make. Most people that play paintball fairly regularly pay at least some attention to paint performance. So in a way every game is a subjective test of ball performance.


when I specifically asked about performance - I'm getting a lot of stuff about dimples, seams, round, size - and very little about how it shoots. Interesting.

TechPB:
"the paint seam is the biggest thing for me. The smaller the seam, usually the more consistent. and i use Evil from the local pb shop, which sells for $60 a case with free entry to my local field"

"If the paint shell is very smooth with a very small seam. Also if its dry (as in not oily) thats a good sign. Other stuff you can tell by like roundness, fill viscosity, how bright the fill is, how brittle the shell is. etc. etc."

"Consistency of how round it is. Better seem. Brittleness. "

"Other people's opinions, opening a bag and checking for dimples, flat spots, size consistency, how often it breaks on a person instead of bouncing, how well the fill sticks to the person, how bright the fill is, stuff like that. "

"For me it's how strait it flys, so I want the smallest seams and the least dimply paint possible, then by brittleness. I like stuff that flies strait and has a tight grouping and is fairly brittle, "

MCB:

"Inspection of the balls is first. Are they round? Are there tons of dimples and flat spots? Any broken paint in the bag?

Also look at the size. I prefer a .686-.688 sized ball so that gets high marks but obviously doesn't mean it is a quality paint. I test a few balls to see if it is consistently sized. If the sizes in a small sample are way crazy, that is a sign it is going to be a bad day for accuracy.

I often do the drop test too from about my eye level ( I am 5' 10"). A good paint in my book is in the six to ten range on the drop test. Any more than that is like shooting marbles. Any less is too brittle and will likely not do well from my L7 Automag.

And of course, there is just shooting it. Can I consistently hit a reasonably sized target at a decent distance? Does it chrono well?"

Edited by brycelarson, 12 March 2012 - 07:52 AM.


#80 cockerpunk

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Posted 12 March 2012 - 10:17 AM

So in a way every game is a subjective test of ball performance.


but with uncontrolled parameters. which means you most of the time, can't single out any one factor as being an improvement. which is why you have to have controlled tests, and why in the absence of controlled tests, the wrong conclusions were made.
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#81 Troy

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Posted 12 March 2012 - 12:45 PM


So in a way every game is a subjective test of ball performance.


but with uncontrolled parameters. which means you most of the time, can't single out any one factor as being an improvement. which is why you have to have controlled tests, and why in the absence of controlled tests, the wrong conclusions were made.


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#82 Jaccen

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Posted 12 March 2012 - 01:58 PM

when I specifically asked about performance - I'm getting a lot of stuff about dimples, seams, round, size - and very little about how it shoots. Interesting.


Right, I think this relates back to how when paintball people talk about accuracy, they're actually talking about precision (as per the other thread). It's impractical to run a vector accuracy test like PunkWorks does on a case before one buys said case. Try suggesting it next time at a store if you doubt that ;)

Since everybody wants a level of precision (ie. repeat-ability), it stands to reason that the most uniform (ie. similar) paint would behave the most similar shot-to-shot. Thus, the concerns about dimples, flats, breakage, etc. I don't think testing has ever been done to show if that's true, though. It's all been conjecture and what we think happens. I don't even think testing paint brand to brand has ever been done. Heck, people claim same brand paint changes on the batch so it'd be a pretty difficult and controversial test.

These are the paint tests I know PunkWorks has done:
-Paintball Brittleness Drop Test
-Paintball Compression Test
-Initial Paint to Barrel Match Test

Is there one I'm unaware of?

If not, I think testing actual paint is the next step forward. We can choose our barrels (ie. whether you want an underbore or overbore). Knowing what to base one's paint choice off of is next on the list.

Edited by Jaccen, 12 March 2012 - 01:59 PM.


#83 cockerpunk

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Posted 12 March 2012 - 02:27 PM

the test we are al talking about is rntlees test where he measured the seam on a microscope and then shot them for actually.

we should try that Bryce, i have the measuring equipment at work that we could use.
The ultimate truth in paintball is that the interaction between the gun and the player is far and away the largest factor in accuracy, consistency, and reliability.

And yes, Gordon is the sexiest manifestation of "to the front."


#84 drg

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Posted 12 March 2012 - 02:37 PM


I'm not so sure that doesn't say the opposite, that performance is essential regardless of price. I kind of wish you hadn't put that option because it's kind of a cop-out option, not really the same kind of "bucket" as the other selections.

But anyway, this is kind of the point I'm trying to make. Most people that play paintball fairly regularly pay at least some attention to paint performance. So in a way every game is a subjective test of ball performance.


when I specifically asked about performance - I'm getting a lot of stuff about dimples, seams, round, size - and very little about how it shoots. Interesting.

TechPB:
"the paint seam is the biggest thing for me. The smaller the seam, usually the more consistent. and i use Evil from the local pb shop, which sells for $60 a case with free entry to my local field"

"If the paint shell is very smooth with a very small seam. Also if its dry (as in not oily) thats a good sign. Other stuff you can tell by like roundness, fill viscosity, how bright the fill is, how brittle the shell is. etc. etc."

"Consistency of how round it is. Better seem. Brittleness. "

"Other people's opinions, opening a bag and checking for dimples, flat spots, size consistency, how often it breaks on a person instead of bouncing, how well the fill sticks to the person, how bright the fill is, stuff like that. "

"For me it's how strait it flys, so I want the smallest seams and the least dimply paint possible, then by brittleness. I like stuff that flies strait and has a tight grouping and is fairly brittle, "

MCB:

"Inspection of the balls is first. Are they round? Are there tons of dimples and flat spots? Any broken paint in the bag?

Also look at the size. I prefer a .686-.688 sized ball so that gets high marks but obviously doesn't mean it is a quality paint. I test a few balls to see if it is consistently sized. If the sizes in a small sample are way crazy, that is a sign it is going to be a bad day for accuracy.

I often do the drop test too from about my eye level ( I am 5' 10"). A good paint in my book is in the six to ten range on the drop test. Any more than that is like shooting marbles. Any less is too brittle and will likely not do well from my L7 Automag.

And of course, there is just shooting it. Can I consistently hit a reasonably sized target at a decent distance? Does it chrono well?"


Not to state the obvious but ... that would be because you can't shoot the paint before you buy it ... I mean in some cases you might be lucky enough to get some feedback beforehand but it's a rare occasion that you would actually get to shoot a ball before you buy it.
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#85 Jaccen

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Posted 12 March 2012 - 09:08 PM

the test we are al talking about is rntlees test where he measured the seam on a microscope and then shot them for actually.

we should try that Bryce, i have the measuring equipment at work that we could use.


I presume you mean this thread?

http://www.techpb.co...&hl=rntlee&st=0

If yes, interesting stuff. I don't seem to remember reading it before so it was fun to go through it.


Does anyone have any ideas on paintball polishing? I'm going to rule out a vibratory finish unless someone can convince me otherwise. I just think I'd get a bucket of paint goo.

http://en.wikipedia....atory_finishing

I think tumble polishing is the best bet. Thus, the rotating bucket idea.

http://en.wikipedia....umble_polishing

Everything I'm reading seems to suggest using a liquid during the process, but I don't think that's practical with paintballs. I still think airsoft bb's or something similar are our best bet. I could maybe see using sand, but I think it might be too rough on the shell of the ball. Maybe I'll give it a try just to see. I'm hoping the paintballs tumbling past each other takes a lot of the burr off, but we'll see. I'll see if I can't scrounge up some inner tube to coat the bucket to soften the process.

I don't know if I can use just a direct connection to a drill to spin the bucket. From what I'm reading it might be too fast. I might need to rig up some bike gears/pulleys to drop it down in speed. Maybe a BBQ spit.

I'm open to ideas on the following:

1. RPM and duration of tumble. Right now I'm thinking the numbers given for metal in that Wiki article are what I should be aiming for. I simply lack information to choose anything but that.
2. Polishing agents. Right now I've got airsoft bb's, wooden beads of various sizes, and I guess I could grab some sandbox sand.
3. Max fill of bucket. I'm thinking under 1/2.
4. Should I apply a slight heat (ie. warming) source to the tumbling process? The wife's pretty handy in the kitchen and she says when she's making fondant you want things warm, but not boiling. I don't know if this applies because the paintballs are already formed. I wonder if the heat would warp things to much. The only value I can see is that it might make polishing easier and the paintballs less brittle.

So, yeah, thoughts?




#86 andrewthewookie

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Posted 12 March 2012 - 09:11 PM

4. Should I apply a slight heat (ie. warming) source to the tumbling process? The wife's pretty handy in the kitchen and she says when she's making fondant you want things warm, but not boiling. I don't know if this applies because the paintballs are already formed. I wonder if the heat would warp things to much. The only value I can see is that it might make polishing easier and the paintballs less brittle.

I guess that depends on whether we want to break off the seams, or squish them even with the shell.

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#87 Molybdenum

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Posted 12 March 2012 - 09:20 PM


4. Should I apply a slight heat (ie. warming) source to the tumbling process? The wife's pretty handy in the kitchen and she says when she's making fondant you want things warm, but not boiling. I don't know if this applies because the paintballs are already formed. I wonder if the heat would warp things to much. The only value I can see is that it might make polishing easier and the paintballs less brittle.

I guess that depends on whether we want to break off the seams, or squish them even with the shell.


Seeing as this is punk works the obvious thing to do is try both and see which one works better.

#88 derfalpha

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Posted 13 March 2012 - 06:45 AM

@ OP - Spread occurs regardless due to recoil, trigger squeeze, atmospheric conditions, etc so I don't think "overaccuracy" is a problem.

#89 MMMerc

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Posted 13 March 2012 - 07:43 AM

the test we are al talking about is rntlees test where he measured the seam on a microscope and then shot them for actually.

we should try that Bryce, i have the measuring equipment at work that we could use.


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