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#1 Jarz

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Posted 14 March 2012 - 04:07 PM

Hey everyone! I was just reading the thread about team ID's here at LL5, and I wanted to know this:

I'm on the New Empire (playing for the Blood Legion). The Empire's color is blue, and the Blood Legion is using purple. Would this mean I get blue and purple tape, or just blue, and the purple is at my squad leader's choice?
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#2 UV Halo

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Posted 14 March 2012 - 05:04 PM

Hey everyone! I was just reading the thread about team ID's here at LL5, and I wanted to know this:

I'm on the New Empire (playing for the Blood Legion). The Empire's color is blue, and the Blood Legion is using purple. Would this mean I get blue and purple tape, or just blue, and the purple is at my squad leader's choice?


1. I don't think they have announced team/squad color's yet (don't assume what our colors are just because of our icon colors).
2. Don't even think about doing your own taping. At the event, the only legitimate way to get taped is by the generals and their captains.

So, for now. Do not worry about it.

#3 Jarz

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Posted 14 March 2012 - 05:08 PM

Ok! Thanks!
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#4 Viper Scenarios

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Posted 14 March 2012 - 08:51 PM

Commanders, or people appointed by them, will be handing out the blue or red tape.

Squad leaders will be in charge of taping their squads.

As part of the scoring depends upon the senior refs being able to confirm that the players at the objective are with the proper squad it is important that you wear it.

Edited by Viper Scenarios, 14 March 2012 - 08:51 PM.

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#5 Jarz

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Posted 14 March 2012 - 09:03 PM

Commanders, or people appointed by them, will be handing out the blue or red tape.

Squad leaders will be in charge of taping their squads.

As part of the scoring depends upon the senior refs being able to confirm that the players at the objective are with the proper squad it is important that you wear it.

So we will be wearing ONLY blue or red? No other color to distinguish our squad within our team? Meaning, I'll be identified as a New Empire player with blue tape, but I will not have purple tape to show that I am in the Blood Legion?
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#6 UV Halo

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Posted 14 March 2012 - 09:09 PM

So we will be wearing ONLY blue or red? No other color to distinguish our squad within our team? Meaning, I'll be identified as a New Empire player with blue tape, but I will not have purple tape to show that I am in the Blood Legion?


No- he's saying we will have at a team color given to us by our general or, those appointed by our general. We will also have a squad color, given to us by our squad leader.

#7 Jarz

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Posted 14 March 2012 - 09:15 PM


So we will be wearing ONLY blue or red? No other color to distinguish our squad within our team? Meaning, I'll be identified as a New Empire player with blue tape, but I will not have purple tape to show that I am in the Blood Legion?


No- he's saying we will have at a team color given to us by our general or, those appointed by our general. We will also have a squad color, given to us by our squad leader.

Got it! Sometimes I wonder how I'm so advanced academically, but my common sense and reasoning can just suck. :lol:
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#8 Viper Scenarios

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Posted 14 March 2012 - 09:16 PM

From the Official Living Legends Event Rules

ID Tape: These strips of survey tape will be provided to you by your commander or one of his officers, not by the event staff. The only legal way to acquire ID tape is from your commander or a legal member of that team that was placed on that side by the event staff. You must wear your ID tape while on the field. A twelve inch strip must be attached to each side of your goggles and clearly visible near your left and right ear.

Ergo the commanders will give you red or blue survey tape for your goggles

Each player will also receive a strip of one-inch wide colored tape from their unit leader to indicate what unit they are in. This must be worn anytime you are on the field and must be clearly visible between the elbow and shoulder of your left arm.

Ergo unit leaders will give you a one inch strip of squad color for your arm

Get it?

Edited by Viper Scenarios, 14 March 2012 - 09:22 PM.

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#9 US_Army_Guy

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Posted 14 March 2012 - 09:54 PM

Wouldn't it make more sense to put the team tape on our arms since this is where its normally worn for scenarios (including past Legends) and even regular walk on games? I can see a LOT of players looking to the arms to see what what team people are on.

I think it would make more sense to have 12 strip of TEAM tape on our arms, and 1-inch strip of squad tape on our goggles.


Also, I hope we don't have conflicting team/squad colors like last year. Where a player on the blue team has orange squad tape, and a player on the red team has purple squad tape. red/orange and blue/purple looks a LOT alike from a distance.

I remember seeing a lot of friendly fire last year because players were getting confused on the colors.

Edited by US_Army_Guy, 14 March 2012 - 09:54 PM.


#10 UV Halo

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Posted 14 March 2012 - 10:00 PM

You must wear your ID tape while on the field. A twelve inch strip must be attached to each side of your goggles and clearly visible near your left and right ear.


Each player will also receive a strip of one-inch wide colored tape to indicate what unit they are in. This must be worn anytime you are on the field and must be clearly visible between the elbow and shoulder of your left arm.

Ergo squad leaders will give you a one inch strip of squad color for your arm

Get it?

Am I to take these portions of the rules so literally?

So, if I wear something like I did last year:
Posted Image

I would be in violation because the tape is on my right arm, and I don't have colored strips clearly visible on my mask?

Even though I was not hiding in this picture, I spend the majority of the scenario stalking and hiding in the wooded portions of the park.

The above quoted specifics concern me because:
1. The majority of players are right handed and, if they are in a covered position, their left arm is behind cover, invisible to those coming towards them from the front while, left-handers (like myself), will be much more easier to spot (less or none of our armband will be behind cover).

2. Brightly colored plastic strips on the sides of the mask defeat any benefit of camouflage.

I think I understand the intent of these rules: fratricide prevention, imposters, and 'rumble' scoring. But, the specifics really hurt players who like to stalk or ambush like myself.

To be fair, I would do it a little differently:
You may only wear the strips provided by your commander or his staff. You may be shot by your own team if you are on the field without clearly displaying these strips and cannot clearly identify yourself.

You may only wear the 1" tape provided by your squad leader. If your squad is assigned an 'occupy mission' [insert term of choice that describes those missions requiring specific squad action], you must be wearing this tape while you are in the designated area. Failure to wear this tape (insert penalty awarded for having folks from the wrong squad in the area).

-or-

If we switch the tape and the strips around:

You will be provided a colored strip of tape by your commander or his staff. This must be worn on halfway between your elbow and shoulder of one arm.

You will be provided two, 12" strips of colored survey tape by your squad leader. You must wear this tape on each side of your mask if you wish to participate in your squad's missions. If you participate in these missions without these strips of tape (insert the penalty awarded for having folks from the wrong squad in the area).

#11 Viper Scenarios

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Posted 14 March 2012 - 10:29 PM

Also, I hope we don't have conflicting team/squad colors like last year. Where a player on the blue team has orange squad tape, and a player on the red team has purple squad tape. red/orange and blue/purple looks a LOT alike from a distance.

I remember seeing a lot of friendly fire last year because players were getting confused on the colors.

That is why one is on the arm and one is on the mask this year. That should alleviate most of the confusion.


The problem I face, and have for my entire sixteen years of producing scenario events, is that you can please all of the people some of the time, and some of the people all of the time...but you can't please all of the people all of the time.

This system, with red/blue on eth head and unit tape on the arm, was the result of lengthy, multi-page discussion involving many players and weeks of debating and input. The overall opinion was that many, many events use survey tape on the goggles to identify what side players are one. They stated this works successfully and has worked well for a long time, and they felt it was the best solution, with unit identifiers on the arms.

However we still have time to discuss it further. If anyone has other opinions now is the time to discuss it.

And just so you know where I am coming from on this issue, this is one of the few events I produce that requires identification tape at all. At most of my events it's optional, with ultimate identification being provided by your character card. However I consider many aspects of my regular events to be for more advanced, experienced scenario players. Living Legends is intended to be more friendly to players from all realms of paintball be it walkon play, renegade, big game, scenario, and even tournament. Therefore much effort is put into making it fun for "scenario players" but still open and friendly for everyone else.

The first couple of years Living Legends used my regular rules, as well as character cards like my other events. This resulted in lots of confusion and problems due to the vast number of players not familiar with the many nuances of scenario play. In the end we opted to remove some of the more complex aspects from Living Legends and make it easier for more players to become more involved,

This isn't to say I ignore the needs/wants of the scenario players/teams. This year we are bringing back the scripted missions as some of the more advanced players/teams said that they had a blast last year, but they missed the sense of accomplishment provided by our usual scripted mission cards.

Many players have stated that one of the best aspects of Living Legends, and what they love most about it, is our willingness to listen and apply suggestions from players. This is no different. However, in the end, we will have to go with what we feel is the best plan overall based on experience.

Edited by Viper Scenarios, 14 March 2012 - 10:39 PM.

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#12 US_Army_Guy

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Posted 14 March 2012 - 11:27 PM

I have to second with UV Halo with the camouflage part. I too wear full camo, and if I have a huge bright colored strips of surveyor tape hanging of my mask, whats the point of wearing camouflage?

At least with shoulder tape, I'm able to hide it to an extent if I'm crawling, flanking or trying to spy on the enemy. But I'm going to have to at more then one point expose my head and that colored tape is going to give me away.

I wouldn't mind seeing Team tape on both shoulders, and a small amount of squad tape rapped around the back of the goggle strap.

Edited by US_Army_Guy, 14 March 2012 - 11:29 PM.


#13 UV Halo

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Posted 14 March 2012 - 11:40 PM

This system, with red/blue on eth head and unit tape on the arm, was the result of lengthy, multi-page discussion involving many players and weeks of debating and input. The overall opinion was that many, many events use survey tape on the goggles to identify what side players are one. They stated this works successfully and has worked well for a long time, and they felt it was the best solution, with unit identifiers on the arms.

However we still have time to discuss it further. If anyone has other opinions now is the time to discuss it.

And just so you know where I am coming from on this issue, this is one of the few events I produce that requires identification tape at all. At most of my events it's optional, with ultimate identification being provided by your character card. However I consider many aspects of my regular events to be for more advanced, experienced scenario players. Living Legends is intended to be more friendly to players from all realms of paintball be it walkon play, renegade, big game, scenario, and even tournament. Therefore much effort is put into making it fun for "scenario players" but still open and friendly for everyone else.


I'm not aware of where this conversation did, or is taking place but, I'd like to add my voice to it. If this is the place to do it, I propose the following (in the language of your rules, with my comments in italics):

ID Tape: At least one strip of 1” wide tape (colored red or blue) will be provided to you by your commander or one of his officers, not by the event staff. The only legal way to acquire ID tape is from your commander or a legal member of that team that was placed on that side by the event staff. This must be worn anytime you are on the field and must be clearly visible between the elbow and shoulder of either your left or right arm.

By allowing placement flexibility, you are still supporting easy identification, and it doesn't favor either hand.


Medic Tape: Medics must also wear a white armband anytime they are on the field and it must be clearly visible between the elbow and shoulder of the arm opposite your ID tape.

Just giving this tape/armband a formal name, and specifying the opposite arm to prevent folks from using it to hide their ID tape.


Unit Tape: Each player will also receive two, twelve inch strips of colored survey colored tape from their unit leader to indicate what unit they are in. These must be attached to each side of your goggles and clearly visible near your left and right ear if you are participating in a unit mission. You may not wear the Unit Tape for a unit you were not assigned to.

This is written with one assumption in mind- your unit allegiance only matters during specific times and places (similar to last year's rumbles). This requires that Unit leaders manage who's wearing their goggle tape (i.e. "Blood Legion! We need to occupy XXXXXXX, you better get there and have your goggle tape on- otherwise get out!


Command bunker and base: There is no shooting into, or out of, the command bunker. To eliminate everyone in the command bunker you need only to stick your foot inside the first doorway and announce "All DEAD!" At that point the base referee will clear out everyone in the bunker. The bunker is not destroyed, but everyone inside will be eliminated. No markers are allowed inside the command bunker except for the commander's. No props are allowed to be kept in the command bunker. No player may eliminate another player wearing the same color ID tape within fifty feet of their command bunker, or do anything harmful while wearing that color within fifty feet of the bunker. Players not wearing or clearly displaying their ID Tape may be shot without warning upon approach to the bunker.

The last sentence is aimed at folks losing their ID Tape and showing up at the bunker un-escorted/un-announced (bad idea in my opinion) as well as explicitly pointing out that the opposition team, if they manage to approach the bunker without showing their color, can be shot. At LL3, even though I had tape, our guards told me I could not approach the bunker without pre-approval (a perfectly acceptable policy in my opinion).


Edit: for clarity in the medic section

Edited by UV Halo, 14 March 2012 - 11:42 PM.


#14 Viper Scenarios

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Posted 15 March 2012 - 12:05 AM

I hear you, and I'm giving it due consideration. However (again, based upon experience) if you give people a way that is too temptingly easy to "circumvent the intent of the format" (read as "cheat") many will. By having too much unit tape floating around by being put on and taken off it may be too tempting for players to just grab some and "adapt" to being on whatever unit is required at the time.

Additionally, unit tape must be EASY to see so that the refs can reasonably tell that the majority of the players are members of the two units that are supposed to be skirmishing. A small piece wrapped around the back of the goggle strap just won't do it.

Unless you were at LL1, 2, or 3 you cannot appreciate how VAST an improvement last year's format made on the playability of the event. That format relies very strongly on the five units per side, and being able to identify them. Therefore, unfortunately, that has to be the primary consideration when discussing rule changes. Last year's format was a huge success with the exception of having the red/blue tape AND the unit tape on players' arms. As "Army Guy" stated; at a distance it was hard to tell purple from blue, orange from red, etc.

So I understand why you guys are in favor of your plans. However I have stated the overall benefits of the current plan, and my perceived issues with your proposals. What I need from you is an explanation of why your plans will work better overall. If it is possible to meet the needs of both the sneakers/crawlers as well as the other players I am ready to do it. However if catering to the sneakers and crawlers means it makes it more difficult for the majority of the LL players who aren't as crafty I'm afraid I have to go with a quote from Mr Spock on Star Trek: "Were I to invoke logic, however, logic clearly dictates that the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few."
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#15 UV Halo

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Posted 15 March 2012 - 12:16 AM

I was at LL3 (my first year) and LL4. I had a great time at both but, I was also one of the units caught up in the Unit Tape situation (Blue Team, orange unit) at LL4 so, I understand the gravity of these rules.

In response, I suggest that the unit tape rule should read like so:

Unit Tape: Each player will also receive two, twelve inch strips of colored survey colored tape from their unit leader to indicate what unit they are in. These must be attached to each side of your goggles at all times while you are on the field. These strips must be clearly visible near your left and right ear if you are participating in a unit mission. You may not wear the Unit Tape for a unit you were not assigned to.

This allows for them to be tucked when not on a unit mission (i.e. like last year, wolf sent me on a recon mission and stealth was a requirement). The way the rule is currently written, I could see an opposition player asking for a ref to check my mask tape and get my card punched (and possibly ejected) just because he/she couldn't see my tape.

#16 Viper Scenarios

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Posted 15 March 2012 - 12:33 AM

If I decided to take an online poll as to whether everyone preferred side tape on their head and unit tape on their arm, or vice-versa, would you guys be willing to go with popular opinion if I am?
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#17 UV Halo

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Posted 15 March 2012 - 12:38 AM

I've already registered so, if you did, I'd have to :)

I would certainly welcome a vote on the matter though.

#18 Viper Scenarios

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Posted 15 March 2012 - 12:43 AM

Well I try to be fair, and I am always interested in opinions and input.
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#19 UV Halo

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Posted 15 March 2012 - 12:47 AM

I know, and I certainly appreciate it!

I really don't want to come across as the late whiner but, even though I read the rules when you first posted the draft here, I didn't notice those explicitly (I admit I hadn't been revisiting that thread between then and today). And I never really heard a discussion on rules for this year (a few folks had questions about new equipment (i.e the scarab, small-caliber paint).

I'll try to follow more closely from here on out.

#20 Viper Scenarios

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Posted 15 March 2012 - 12:59 AM

Just to come back and answer something I missed...

The above quoted specifics concern me because:
1. The majority of players are right handed and, if they are in a covered position, their left arm is behind cover, invisible to those coming towards them from the front while, left-handers (like myself), will be much more easier to spot (less or none of our armband will be behind cover).

The reason for this is so that players only have to look for one arm. Otherwise you see their left arm and say...well, I don't see my color on that arm and I have a good shot at them...but I need to wait until I can see the OTHER arm TOO before I can be sure. They wait to see the other arm and confirm that the player is an opponent, but by that time they have missed the shot. If they know what arm they need to look at confirming friend or foe is much more efficient than not knowing which arm to check. If you KNOW that your teammates are taped on the left arm, and you can SEE an untaped left arm, you're done. SHOOT!

If I am commanding a scenario event that requires everyone to be taped I always ask that all players on my side tape the same arm for the same reason.

Edited by Viper Scenarios, 15 March 2012 - 01:01 AM.

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#21 UV Halo

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Posted 15 March 2012 - 01:03 AM

Just to come back and answer something I missed...


The above quoted specifics concern me because:
1. The majority of players are right handed and, if they are in a covered position, their left arm is behind cover, invisible to those coming towards them from the front while, left-handers (like myself), will be much more easier to spot (less or none of our armband will be behind cover).

The reason for this is so that players only have to look for one arm. Otherwise you see their left arm and say...well, I don't see my color on that arm and I have a good shot at them...but I need to wait until I can see the OTHER arm TOO before I can be sure. They wait to see the other arm and confirm that the player is an opponent, but by that time they have missed the shot. If they know what arm they need to look at confirming friend or foe is much more efficient than not knowing which arm to check. If you KNOW that your teammates are taped on the left arm, and you can SEE an untaped left arm, you're done. SHOOT!

If I am commanding a scenario event that requires everyone to be taped I always ask that all players on my side tape the same arm for the same reason.


Yeah I can see that but, why do most fields that care to tape a specific arm, pick the left arm? cause most people are right handed. So, in my opinion, remove the advantage of right-handedness by putting tape on both arms.

#22 Viper Scenarios

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Posted 15 March 2012 - 01:30 AM

Here ya go! ID Tape poll

Edited by Viper Scenarios, 15 March 2012 - 01:31 AM.

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#23 Viper Scenarios

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Posted 15 March 2012 - 01:41 AM

So, in my opinion, remove the advantage of right-handedness by putting tape on both arms.


Okay...so I need to figure out how to best please all of the left-handed players in ghillie suits? :P
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#24 UV Halo

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Posted 15 March 2012 - 01:50 AM


So, in my opinion, remove the advantage of right-handedness by putting tape on both arms.


Okay...so I need to figure out how to best please all of the left-handed players in ghillie suits? :P


No, just me :P

In any case, should I direct folks on other forums to the poll here to vote or will you setup polls on other forums?

#25 Viper Scenarios

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Posted 15 March 2012 - 11:55 AM

I did one here and one at PBNation as those are the two most active Living Legends forums.
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#26 UV Halo

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Posted 15 March 2012 - 12:02 PM

I did one here and one at PBNation as those are the two most active Living Legends forums.


I'll post up over at MCB to give users there a head's up.

#27 Viper Scenarios

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Posted 16 March 2012 - 05:29 PM

Well...so far it seems that players are in favor of red/blue tape on both arms, with squad tape on each ear.

I'll give it a week and see how everything comes out before I make anything final. :)

My thanks to everyone for their valuable input. This is what makes this event better and better every year! :tup:
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