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All paint guns have the same - NOT TRUE


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#51 David A.

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Posted 19 March 2012 - 01:44 AM

I received a lot of feedback on my post; some was positive, some was critical, some reverted to name-calling, which is to say VERY WEAK. A lot of of post referred me to post data and look at the Punkworks web-site. I looked at their website, at the Finished Test . Ends up there are no test or data showing that, "all paintball guns have the same accuracy". They do however do a lot of good work and show some data on spreadsheets. In most if not all "accuracy test, they show the velocity and show an SD value (that's STANDARD DEVIATION for you "name callers") . If the consistent and repeatable velocity is not important, then why does Punkworks show it? There was also a statement that somehow physics is different for paintball; in fact physic are the same for everything. Robot0nija seems to be the only poster that has any idea of basic physics, he got it right and he too was chastised...he is right, if you rebutted him, you need to retake high school physics. For those of you that only follow the popular dogma and refuse science, welcome to the Flat Earth Society. In fact many of the postings rebutting me, in fact backed up my post. I have yet to see anyone post any data showing my post is incorrect, anyone?

Edited by David A., 19 March 2012 - 02:05 AM.

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#52 PB2011

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Posted 19 March 2012 - 01:54 AM

I received a lot of feedback on my post; some was positive, some was critical, some reverted to name-calling, which is to say VERY WEAK. A lot of of post referred me to post data and look at the Punkworks web-site. I looked at their website, at the Finished Test . Ends up there are no test or data showing that, "all paintball guns have the same accuracy". They do however do a lot of good work and show some data on spreadsheets. In most if not all "accuracy test, they show the velocity and show an SD value (that's STANDARD DEVIATION for you "name callers") . If the consistent and repeatable velocity is not important, then why does Punkworks show it? There was also a statement that somehow physics is different for paintball; in fact physic are the same for everything, you may have heard the term "laws of Physics"? Robot0nija seems to be the only poster that has any idea of basic physics, he got it right and he too was chastised...he is right, if you rebutted him, you need to retake high school physics. For those of you that only follow the popular dogma and refuse science, welcome to the Flat Earth Society.

I have yet to see anyone post any data showing my post is incorrect, anyone?


I'm way too tired to debate this, so for everyone's sake please PM Bryce Larson or CockerPunk/Gordon. If anyone can straighten this out it's them, and who knows, maybe everyone here is wrong. May I ask one question however?

For what reason would we benefit from all barrels having the same accuracy? Do you really think ALL of the people who have ever debated accuracy have no idea how physics works? This has been debated for YEARS, and trust me, if there was some way to improve accuracy I would bet my life that someone would have found it by now. Anyway, I bid you good luck to trying to prove that paintball guns have differences in accuracy. If you do find something, be sure to put me on your list of people to tell, because I would LOVE something that made my gun more accurate.

Edited by PB2011, 19 March 2012 - 02:00 AM.

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#53 samthepainter

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Posted 19 March 2012 - 02:16 AM

While I understand the point that "punkworks" and all the modern "paintball forum scientists" are trying to make, I have to agree with the premise of this thread.

People who believe all paintguns have the same accuracy must have very little experience with different paintball guns. Or maybe it's that paintball guns these days have such consistent standards/tolerances.

I played most in the late 90s and early 2000s, paintball guns were definitely not as good back then, and a good amount of them were crappy. They were also very different from each other.

A lot of it has to do with consistency (regulators, air vs co2) -- a lot of it has to do with precision in making the gun (barrels weren't always made perfectly to standard, for example) -- a lot of it has to do with ergonomics and recoil -- and we have more unknown factors such as low/high pressure that we arent really sure about, so I'll leave that one out, but just know there are other potential factors.

The point is, saying that all paintball guns have the same accuracy is misleading at best, and incorrect at worst. Even if it was just kick that affected accuracy, in practical situations (humans using paintball guns, I don't see robots with vices playing paintball) that would mean a difference in accuracy.

I've played with a lot of crappy blowback guns (both rentals and my own) that for the life of me, I could clean and set up properly, and they just wouldnt shoot straight. Dunno why but I've experienced it myself. And honestly, I've used different barrels on THE SAME GUN that affected the horizontal (left/right) accuracy of a paintball.There are so many factors we dont know about. Just because some experiments have been done, doesn't mean everything. Experience in practical situations is the best evidence. There are probably a lot more factors than we realize affecting accuracy.

Maybe I've just played with wayyy too many dirty rental guns. But about half the guns I've ever shot, don't shoot straight to varying degrees. In my practical experience, paintball guns make a considerable difference in accuracy.
Or maybe just low end guns aren't accurate, and any decently crafted gun (mid end and higher) is about the same. Dunno. But you guys bandwagon a little too strong on here. Have an open mind. A few experiments dont mean everything.

#54 PB2011

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Posted 19 March 2012 - 02:30 AM

While I understand the point that "punkworks" and all the modern "paintball forum scientists" are trying to make, I have to agree with the premise of this thread.

People who believe all paintguns have the same accuracy must have very little experience with different paintball guns. Or maybe it's that paintball guns these days have such consistent standards/tolerances.

I played most in the late 90s and early 2000s, paintball guns were definitely not as good back then, and a good amount of them were crappy. They were also very different from each other.

A lot of it has to do with consistency (regulators, air vs co2) -- a lot of it has to do with precision in making the gun (barrels weren't always made perfectly to standard, for example) -- a lot of it has to do with ergonomics and recoil -- and we have more unknown factors such as low/high pressure that we arent really sure about, so I'll leave that one out, but just know there are other potential factors.

The point is, saying that all paintball guns have the same accuracy is misleading at best, and incorrect at worst. Even if it was just kick that affected accuracy, in practical situations (humans using paintball guns, I don't see robots with vices playing paintball) that would mean a difference in accuracy.

I've played with a lot of crappy blowback guns (both rentals and my own) that for the life of me, I could clean and set up properly, and they just wouldnt shoot straight. Dunno why but I've experienced it myself. And honestly, I've used different barrels on THE SAME GUN that affected the horizontal (left/right) accuracy of a paintball.There are so many factors we dont know about. Just because some experiments have been done, doesn't mean everything. Experience in practical situations is the best evidence. There are probably a lot more factors than we realize affecting accuracy.

Maybe I've just played with wayyy too many dirty rental guns. But about half the guns I've ever shot, don't shoot straight to varying degrees. In my practical experience, paintball guns make a considerable difference in accuracy.
Or maybe just low end guns aren't accurate, and any decently crafted gun (mid end and higher) is about the same. Dunno. But you guys bandwagon a little too strong on here. Have an open mind. A few experiments dont mean everything.


If your gun is dirty, that WILL make a difference in accuracy. As per you playing with older guns, the regulators were not as developed back then, so maybe that could factor in to range. Keep in mind however, that what you consider to be different accuracy may very well be the same as every other gun. The brain has a habit of seeing patterns that don't exist, which is why we test using measurements instead of the naked eye, because I too have seen guns that I could have sworn were more accurate, but alas, they are not.

Also keep in mind as well that paint can make a really noticeable difference with accuracy as well. If you shoot the same gun with different paint you will see a variation in accuracy as higher quality paintballs generally have less defects and therefore aren't thrown off by dimples in the shell and such.
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#55 Ajomega

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Posted 19 March 2012 - 03:12 AM

Accuracy is at best a placebo effect. For you to say " I have yet to see anyone prove me wrong" makes no sense since you have not shown any data, just several walls of text lacking proper grammar and proper spelling.

I shoot firearms too, however you simply CANNOT apply firearms knowledge to paintball. It just doesn't work.

Edited by Ajomega, 19 March 2012 - 03:13 AM.

urgh. I cant figure out how to put my bfbc2 stats on here :(

#56 samthepainter

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Posted 19 March 2012 - 03:39 AM


While I understand the point that "punkworks" and all the modern "paintball forum scientists" are trying to make, I have to agree with the premise of this thread.

People who believe all paintguns have the same accuracy must have very little experience with different paintball guns. Or maybe it's that paintball guns these days have such consistent standards/tolerances.

I played most in the late 90s and early 2000s, paintball guns were definitely not as good back then, and a good amount of them were crappy. They were also very different from each other.

A lot of it has to do with consistency (regulators, air vs co2) -- a lot of it has to do with precision in making the gun (barrels weren't always made perfectly to standard, for example) -- a lot of it has to do with ergonomics and recoil -- and we have more unknown factors such as low/high pressure that we arent really sure about, so I'll leave that one out, but just know there are other potential factors.

The point is, saying that all paintball guns have the same accuracy is misleading at best, and incorrect at worst. Even if it was just kick that affected accuracy, in practical situations (humans using paintball guns, I don't see robots with vices playing paintball) that would mean a difference in accuracy.

I've played with a lot of crappy blowback guns (both rentals and my own) that for the life of me, I could clean and set up properly, and they just wouldnt shoot straight. Dunno why but I've experienced it myself. And honestly, I've used different barrels on THE SAME GUN that affected the horizontal (left/right) accuracy of a paintball.There are so many factors we dont know about. Just because some experiments have been done, doesn't mean everything. Experience in practical situations is the best evidence. There are probably a lot more factors than we realize affecting accuracy.

Maybe I've just played with wayyy too many dirty rental guns. But about half the guns I've ever shot, don't shoot straight to varying degrees. In my practical experience, paintball guns make a considerable difference in accuracy.
Or maybe just low end guns aren't accurate, and any decently crafted gun (mid end and higher) is about the same. Dunno. But you guys bandwagon a little too strong on here. Have an open mind. A few experiments dont mean everything.


If your gun is dirty, that WILL make a difference in accuracy. As per you playing with older guns, the regulators were not as developed back then, so maybe that could factor in to range. Keep in mind however, that what you consider to be different accuracy may very well be the same as every other gun. The brain has a habit of seeing patterns that don't exist, which is why we test using measurements instead of the naked eye, because I too have seen guns that I could have sworn were more accurate, but alas, they are not.

Also keep in mind as well that paint can make a really noticeable difference with accuracy as well. If you shoot the same gun with different paint you will see a variation in accuracy as higher quality paintballs generally have less defects and therefore aren't thrown off by dimples in the shell and such.


Yeah I get your points, but I would still rebut the "brain seeing patterns that dont exist" argument. Well, I'm sure that's true in some situations, but I sure as hell know when one gun shoots straight and another one doesn't. And I don't think just having a clean barrel has 100% everything to do with it.

#57 Vaellis

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Posted 19 March 2012 - 06:35 AM

Yes, they will have the same accuracy in a vice, which means they have the same accuracy and precision, what your talking about when it's in somebodies hands is the human effect, which is not the marker's fault.


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#58 xSilent

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Posted 19 March 2012 - 07:44 AM

The bolt pushing the paintball forward will not make any difference in accuracy.

This inconsistency with older guns is an old theory, and regulators stop the fluctuations in velocity. Slap a regulator on a gun, and it will be consistent.

If your gun is curving paint all over, clean it. After working at my field for a few weekends, the 98c shoots as accurate as my victory does( and both were clean).

Considering ergonomics and trigger is somewhat irrelevant, because thats preference, and makes for way too large of a variable to be even considered.

At high rates of fire, sure you can say that the high-end markers are more accurate, because of the less constant kick, but i dont beleive that makes it more accurate.

Lets remember. Paintball guns are not like real guns. The amount of kick in any gun from an a5 to an ego, is marginal in defining "accuracy."

It is impossible to take out the human factor, like someone has said before me, we arent a bunch of robots running around with vices holding out guns. I understand David A's argument, but everyone here with the "we need data" is right. I'm not trying to hop on the science bandwagon, but it's true.

Nevertheless, paintball guns have way too many factors to the ideas of "accuracy."

Screw it. Just go play paintball guys and gals, if you hit them, you hit them, right?
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#59 xincognitopbx

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Posted 19 March 2012 - 10:35 AM

Theories without evidence are stupid. Unless your considering punkworks/your own properly achieved data, throwing around theories is a waste of time.

Don't argue without numbers about accuracy /thread

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Dosent the Ego 11 only come in dust colours?

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#60 cockerpunk

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Posted 19 March 2012 - 12:48 PM

Dammit Punkworks! See what you've done?!

Now everyone asks for data!


DAMN YOU SCIENCE! DAMN YOU TO HELL!


this pleases me greatly

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Edited by cockerpunk, 19 March 2012 - 12:51 PM.

The ultimate truth in paintball is that the interaction between the gun and the player is far and away the largest factor in accuracy, consistency, and reliability.

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#61 MMMerc

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Posted 19 March 2012 - 01:01 PM


Dammit Punkworks! See what you've done?!

Now everyone asks for data!


DAMN YOU SCIENCE! DAMN YOU TO HELL!


this pleases me greatly

crushing hopes and dreams is a hobby i love almost as much as paintball.


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#62 zuchaka

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Posted 19 March 2012 - 01:24 PM

Op the burdon of proof is on you not us .....you should know that .......unless we are all supposed to be so impressed by your knowledge of the bell shaped curve and standard deviation that we were supposed to slink away into the shadows ...... when challenging a prevailing viewpoint the burdon of proof is always on the debunker and so far all you have given us is your opinion. Asking people to disprove you when you have presented nothing other than opinion is dangerously close to you asking us to prove a negative .......you cannot have evidence of a non-event , so what you have is what we know now all the evidence pointing toward accuracy being a moot point with markers. So until you present something valid ....this is going nowhere


*also way to complain about people name calling and then turn around and compare 'us' to flat earth people .....is that name calling i am not sure ....pretty sure that's the same as calling us all stupid

Edited by zuchaka, 19 March 2012 - 01:25 PM.


#63 LUXOR54

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Posted 19 March 2012 - 05:32 PM

also why does it matter what gun your using? all the gun does is push the ball into the barrel then release enough air to get it up to 300 fps so the gun really does nothing just a push, while the barrel directs the air and the paintball down range so the gun wont affect accuracy in the way it delivers air to the ball. the barrel is what guides the ball and since gun wont affect accuracy, and the barrel does, and since all barrels have the same accuracy all guns will have the same accuracy aswell

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#64 Empire91

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Posted 19 March 2012 - 06:36 PM

I think that until we have the ability to ensure 100% consistent paint ( i.e zero dimples, exact same shell diameter, ect...) the whole accuracy argument should just be left to the physics, which in my opinion should have been the deciding factor in the first place.

And you can't compare real firearms to paintball, the mechanisms used as well as the ammunition are completely different in both cases.

#65 NJC

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Posted 19 March 2012 - 10:04 PM

you have brought the fury of the punkworks upon yourself.

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#66 Roofie Liqueur

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Posted 19 March 2012 - 10:50 PM

I agree with the OP, physics is physics. A G6R chrono'd at 300 will hit as far and as hard as an Axe also chrono'd at 300. Both equipped with a perfect paintball (free of any defects) And theyre both aiming at the same thing in theory it should hit the target dead center all the time. But the fluctuation of the FPS always happen, so in theory again a marker with a better FPS consistency will hit the target dead center more often. So therefore OP is right in a perfect condition (perfect paintballs and clean barrel) some guns will be more accurate or precise than the other.

But the outside factors or uncontrolled variables are always present and I think cancels out the advantage a marker have over the other. And we call this process placebo effect.

OP is right and so are the punkworks crew. All guns have different precision or accuracy DEPENDING on the distance you're shooting. But it gets cancelled out by the outside factors.

I'm not a physicist or an English teacher, I'm a freakin sushi chef. Grammar Nazis please spare me if I butchered the English language.

Edited by Roofie Liqueur, 19 March 2012 - 10:51 PM.




#67 MMMerc

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Posted 20 March 2012 - 07:30 AM

I agree with the OP, physics is physics. A G6R chrono'd at 300 will hit as far and as hard as an Axe also chrono'd at 300. Both equipped with a perfect paintball (free of any defects) And theyre both aiming at the same thing in theory it should hit the target dead center all the time. But the fluctuation of the FPS always happen, so in theory again a marker with a better FPS consistency will hit the target dead center more often. So therefore OP is right in a perfect condition (perfect paintballs and clean barrel) some guns will be more accurate or precise than the other.

But the outside factors or uncontrolled variables are always present and I think cancels out the advantage a marker have over the other. And we call this process placebo effect.

OP is right and so are the punkworks crew. All guns have different precision or accuracy DEPENDING on the distance you're shooting. But it gets cancelled out by the outside factors.

I'm not a physicist or an English teacher, I'm a freakin sushi chef. Grammar Nazis please spare me if I butchered the English language.


You shall be spared... for now.

However your argument is invalid as well, Your arguing consistency in FPS, Which is attributed to the regulator, not the gun. Verdict still stands.

Edited by MMMerc, 20 March 2012 - 07:33 AM.


#68 samthepainter

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Posted 20 March 2012 - 09:50 AM

The regulator isn't a part of the gun?

So then by definition, guns with different regs will have different accuracy.

Spherical paintguns in the void is different from reality. You guys are saying.... assuming the same barrel precision, the same regulator, the same ergos/recoil..... all paintguns are the same. Well yeah, if they were all the same, then they'd be all the same. But they're not the same, they're different.


And sometimes anecdotal evidence is all you need. Basing all your life decisions and beliefs on controlled scientific studies will not make you a happy person, or even necessarily a smarter, more truthy one. Proposing an idea without hordes of scientific "data" can be perfectly fine, as long as there is anecdotal evidence that hasn't been disproven, and nobody is getting hurt.

Science is about continued testing. Not about proving things wrong or throwing opposing ideas down the drain.

#69 5ozofpain

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Posted 20 March 2012 - 09:52 AM

Im suprised cookie didnt go harder on him


That would be like punching a mentally retarded kid.

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#70 MMMerc

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Posted 20 March 2012 - 10:00 AM

The regulator isn't a part of the gun?

So then by definition, guns with different regs will have different accuracy.

Spherical paintguns in the void is different from reality. You guys are saying.... assuming the same barrel precision, the same regulator, the same ergos/recoil..... all paintguns are the same. Well yeah, if they were all the same, then they'd be all the same. But they're not the same, they're different.


And sometimes anecdotal evidence is all you need. Basing all your life decisions and beliefs on controlled scientific studies will not make you a happy person, or even necessarily a smarter, more truthy one. Proposing an idea without hordes of scientific "data" can be perfectly fine, as long as there is anecdotal evidence that hasn't been disproven, and nobody is getting hurt.

Science is about continued testing. Not about proving things wrong or throwing opposing ideas down the drain.


Punkworks has done mountains of data from hard and exact scientific testing. Your "Hypothesis" is not a fact however, and cannot be proved. We can prove our side however, so don't come saying "We are wrong" When you have no evidence of so.

#71 evan15549

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Posted 20 March 2012 - 10:01 AM


Im suprised cookie didnt go harder on him


That would be like punching a mentally retarded kid.

Yay bacon :D

#72 Empire91

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Posted 20 March 2012 - 10:55 AM

The regulator isn't a part of the gun?

So then by definition, guns with different regs will have different accuracy.

Spherical paintguns in the void is different from reality. You guys are saying.... assuming the same barrel precision, the same regulator, the same ergos/recoil..... all paintguns are the same. Well yeah, if they were all the same, then they'd be all the same. But they're not the same, they're different.


And sometimes anecdotal evidence is all you need. Basing all your life decisions and beliefs on controlled scientific studies will not make you a happy person, or even necessarily a smarter, more truthy one. Proposing an idea without hordes of scientific "data" can be perfectly fine, as long as there is anecdotal evidence that hasn't been disproven, and nobody is getting hurt.

Science is about continued testing. Not about proving things wrong or throwing opposing ideas down the drain.



Yeah, but a large part of the OP's anecdotal evidence comes from a completely different circumstance. Just because firearms and paintball guns fire "bullets" at other people, that doesn't mean they are the same. As for other evidence in the form of data, Punkworks has done testing and come up with data to support their side. The OP made a claim that was not backed up by data, even though the burden of proof falls on him.

#73 UV Halo

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Posted 20 March 2012 - 11:00 AM

First, please, please, please, use some formatting in any deep posts. Simply breaking your post into several paragraphs, each centered on a specific point you were making, would make it a lot easier to read and therefore understand. Your feelings of 'this is longer than I wanted' is much more troublesome for us because, unlike you, we have no idea where your wall of text is taking us, or, in what order.

I've gone through and pulled out some of the key points you seem to be making and I've addressed each of them in turn:

if your marker shots with a +/- of 15 or 30 FPS (about 5-10%), then your impact point will be different, about 1-2 feet at 100 feet.... no matter what. The faster shots will impact higher, the slower ones will impact lower.


I'm not saying you're wrong in concept but, where did you get this data? I ask because in this test where shots were fired at a board 125ft downrange, in the .683/21" data columns look at these four shots:
Velocity (X,Y)
268FPS (9,2)
268FPS (-1,10)
296FPS (0,7)
296FPS (4, -3)

The point being that at even 125ft, the natural spread of quality paintballs dwarfs the impact of velocity inconsistency as great as +/- 28FPS, and most commercially available markers today do better than +/-28FPS. Therefore, no reasonable expectation of marker impact here.

Operating Pressure: this related to the impact of the very unstable paintball, the more pressure, the more deformation, also making paint brittleness more of a factor.


To the best of my knowledge, high speed video of paintballs traveling through a glass/acrylic barrel (I can't remember which) revealed no 'pressure pulse paintball deformation', and no impact location data has ever revealed that lower pressure is better than higher pressure. Further, without specialized testing equipment, there is no way of knowing what your breech peak pressure is nor it does not correlate with the marker's operating pressure (as Tom Kaye has tested and shown). Therefore, no reasonable expectation of paintball gun impact here.

A rough bore will cases spin, spin (unless controlled like and Apex or Flatline barrel) in paintball is bad, and it makes the paintball flight less consistent so less precise.


This has been proven but, to be clear, the bore has to be worse than what we've seen in nearly all of the commercially available paintball barrels sold by major paintball manufacturers. Most (if not all) barrels provided by major paintball gun manufacturers exceed this minimal level of quality therefore, there is no reasonable expectation of paintball gun impact here either.

A good bore with treat the paintball the same on each shot, making them repeatable, resulting in more precision.


The concept is sound but, paintballs are so crappy that nobody is claiming 'repeatable' impacts at 100'. Are you feeling the trend yet? No reasonable expectation of paintball gun impact here.

recoil is a factor; the more recoil, the further you are taken off-target and the slower your recovery time between shots.


Consider the .682/12" column in the 50ft accuracy test, notice the impact locations for these three 283FPS shots:
8,6
6,3
8,2

We've got up to a 4" variation at fifty feet, from a bench locked marker. That works out to a 24MOA spread which, if you use a dot sight would equal a vertical jump of 5-8 dots (depending on the sight) which, I've never experienced with even a 98 custom. Therefore, until someone proves that markers jump 24MOA vertically, from shot to shot, No reasonable expectation of paintball gun impact here.

The rest of your post seems to center on the human-marker interface. I would avoid this area because it's highly reliant upon the preferences of the human. For example, some folks prefer to barely hold the rear grip in order to facilitate walking the trigger and instead, they firmly hold the fore-grip (or reg). For these folks, they may prefer the hopper closer to the fore grip.

Edited by UV Halo, 20 March 2012 - 11:03 AM.


#74 MMMerc

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Posted 20 March 2012 - 11:12 AM

UV earns some props for that. Killed it.

#75 Toat

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Posted 20 March 2012 - 01:18 PM

OP thinks that the principles governing firearm performance and precision are directly corelative to paintball markers.

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#76 MMMerc

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Posted 20 March 2012 - 01:23 PM

OP thinks that the principles governing firearm performance and precision are directly corelative to paintball markers.

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I like this guy...

#77 David A.

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Posted 20 March 2012 - 07:11 PM

First, please, please, please, use some formatting in any deep posts. Simply breaking your post into several paragraphs, each centered on a specific point you were making, would make it a lot easier to read and therefore understand. Your feelings of 'this is longer than I wanted' is much more troublesome for us because, unlike you, we have no idea where your wall of text is taking us, or, in what order.

I've gone through and pulled out some of the key points you seem to be making and I've addressed each of them in turn:

if your marker shots with a +/- of 15 or 30 FPS (about 5-10%), then your impact point will be different, about 1-2 feet at 100 feet.... no matter what. The faster shots will impact higher, the slower ones will impact lower.


I'm not saying you're wrong in concept but, where did you get this data? I ask because in this test where shots were fired at a board 125ft downrange, in the .683/21" data columns look at these four shots:
Velocity (X,Y)
268FPS (9,2)
268FPS (-1,10)
296FPS (0,7)
296FPS (4, -3)

The point being that at even 125ft, the natural spread of quality paintballs dwarfs the impact of velocity inconsistency as great as +/- 28FPS, and most commercially available markers today do better than +/-28FPS. Therefore, no reasonable expectation of marker impact here.

Operating Pressure: this related to the impact of the very unstable paintball, the more pressure, the more deformation, also making paint brittleness more of a factor.


To the best of my knowledge, high speed video of paintballs traveling through a glass/acrylic barrel (I can't remember which) revealed no 'pressure pulse paintball deformation', and no impact location data has ever revealed that lower pressure is better than higher pressure. Further, without specialized testing equipment, there is no way of knowing what your breech peak pressure is nor it does not correlate with the marker's operating pressure (as Tom Kaye has tested and shown). Therefore, no reasonable expectation of paintball gun impact here.

A rough bore will cases spin, spin (unless controlled like and Apex or Flatline barrel) in paintball is bad, and it makes the paintball flight less consistent so less precise.


This has been proven but, to be clear, the bore has to be worse than what we've seen in nearly all of the commercially available paintball barrels sold by major paintball manufacturers. Most (if not all) barrels provided by major paintball gun manufacturers exceed this minimal level of quality therefore, there is no reasonable expectation of paintball gun impact here either.

A good bore with treat the paintball the same on each shot, making them repeatable, resulting in more precision.


The concept is sound but, paintballs are so crappy that nobody is claiming 'repeatable' impacts at 100'. Are you feeling the trend yet? No reasonable expectation of paintball gun impact here.

recoil is a factor; the more recoil, the further you are taken off-target and the slower your recovery time between shots.


Consider the .682/12" column in the 50ft accuracy test, notice the impact locations for these three 283FPS shots:
8,6
6,3
8,2

We've got up to a 4" variation at fifty feet, from a bench locked marker. That works out to a 24MOA spread which, if you use a dot sight would equal a vertical jump of 5-8 dots (depending on the sight) which, I've never experienced with even a 98 custom. Therefore, until someone proves that markers jump 24MOA vertically, from shot to shot, No reasonable expectation of paintball gun impact here.

The rest of your post seems to center on the human-marker interface. I would avoid this area because it's highly reliant upon the preferences of the human. For example, some folks prefer to barely hold the rear grip in order to facilitate walking the trigger and instead, they firmly hold the fore-grip (or reg). For these folks, they may prefer the hopper closer to the fore grip.


Thank you for the thoughtful note. You seem to have your facts in order, I appreciate your time and thoughtfulness in putting a well written response to my rant. I believe you are correct about formatting and I will take it into consideration in the future.
I am seeing the trend; it seems the "paintball" is such an inconsistent projectile that MOST paintball markers exceed the precision of the weakest link, the paintball. I also see from most of these posts, most do not understand the difference between accuracy and precision.
All that said, I stand by my first statement " All paintball guns have the same accuracy - NOT TRUE" The difference may be slight, especially if we are really talking about precision and well maintained, modern, regulated makers, shooting good paint.
Again, thank you for your good post.

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#78 Old Dude PB

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Posted 20 March 2012 - 07:21 PM

I think it's worth thinking about this from the manufacturer's perspective. If a marker manufacturer could demonstrate in a repeatable, conclusive test that their marker was more accurate than their competitors', wouldn't they include that in their marketing? Is there a current manufacturer out there claiming superior accuracy?

#79 Empire91

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Posted 20 March 2012 - 07:35 PM

I think it's worth thinking about this from the manufacturer's perspective. If a marker manufacturer could demonstrate in a repeatable, conclusive test that their marker was more accurate than their competitors', wouldn't they include that in their marketing? Is there a current manufacturer out there claiming superior accuracy?


Ummm, all of them?

#80 The_Economist

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Posted 20 March 2012 - 07:55 PM

The point being that at even 125ft, the natural spread of quality paintballs dwarfs the impact of velocity inconsistency as great as +/- 28FPS, and most commercially available markers today do better than +/-28FPS. Therefore, no reasonable expectation of marker impact here.


Thank you for distilling it all down. All of Punkworks' data points to this hypothesis; effects that may slightly improve a paintball gun's accuracy/precision get washed out by the inherent inaccuracy/imprecision of paintballs.


#81 gogpaintballer

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Posted 20 March 2012 - 08:00 PM

i dunno. i think i'm gonna have to go with cookybiscuit and say that all markers do have the same accuracy...
besides i would rather believe him anyways! who do i think is more credible and honest, cooky!
1) he's been on here for years, has over 11,000 posts
2) people know him
3) has years of paintball experience
4) gives helpful advice to everyone and is brutally honest about almost everything
and then there's you...

and also, lastly! what would cooky gain from lying about accuracy? if all guns didn't have the same accuracy then why would he make a massive thread about it and risk his reputation?
and besides, even mike has mentioned how all paintball markers have generally the same accuracy! so unless your calling both of them liars...

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#82 Old Dude PB

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Posted 20 March 2012 - 08:11 PM


I think it's worth thinking about this from the manufacturer's perspective. If a marker manufacturer could demonstrate in a repeatable, conclusive test that their marker was more accurate than their competitors', wouldn't they include that in their marketing? Is there a current manufacturer out there claiming superior accuracy?


Ummm, all of them?


It's not on their websites:

Dye on the DM12: "...a tradition of being among the smoothest, quietest, and most accurate paintball markers in the world."

PE on the Ego 11: "...superb shot-to-shot consistency and rate of fire accuracy."

Bob on the G6R: "...unreal efficiency and accuracy."

They're claiming to be really accurate, but none of them are claiming to be more accurate than their competitors.

#83 David A.

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Posted 21 March 2012 - 10:29 AM



I think it's worth thinking about this from the manufacturer's perspective. If a marker manufacturer could demonstrate in a repeatable, conclusive test that their marker was more accurate than their competitors', wouldn't they include that in their marketing? Is there a current manufacturer out there claiming superior accuracy?


Ummm, all of them?


It's not on their websites:

Dye on the DM12: "...a tradition of being among the smoothest, quietest, and most accurate paintball markers in the world."

PE on the Ego 11: "...superb shot-to-shot consistency and rate of fire accuracy."

Bob on the G6R: "...unreal efficiency and accuracy."

They're claiming to be really accurate, but none of them are claiming to be more accurate than their competitors.


Dye says "... and the most accurate paintball markers in the world" - that my friend is a declarative statement of comparison. Does not mean they are correct, but believe they would have some kind of evidence...Or do we think it is just advertising hype??

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#84 Old Dude PB

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Posted 21 March 2012 - 10:51 AM




I think it's worth thinking about this from the manufacturer's perspective. If a marker manufacturer could demonstrate in a repeatable, conclusive test that their marker was more accurate than their competitors', wouldn't they include that in their marketing? Is there a current manufacturer out there claiming superior accuracy?


Ummm, all of them?


It's not on their websites:

Dye on the DM12: "...a tradition of being among the smoothest, quietest, and most accurate paintball markers in the world."

PE on the Ego 11: "...superb shot-to-shot consistency and rate of fire accuracy."

Bob on the G6R: "...unreal efficiency and accuracy."

They're claiming to be really accurate, but none of them are claiming to be more accurate than their competitors.


Dye says "... and the most accurate paintball markers in the world" - that my friend is a declarative statement of comparison. Does not mean they are correct, but believe they would have some kind of evidence...Or do we think it is just advertising hype??


That sentence only claims their marker is "among" the most accurate paintball markers in the world. It doesn't make any comparison at all. If the hypothesis you're trying to disprove, that all markers have the same accuracy, is correct, then the DM12 would, in fact, be among the most accurate markers in the world. As would every other marker. Getting a little nutty with the semantics, I'll admit.

Edited by Old Dude PB, 21 March 2012 - 10:52 AM.


#85 HxCPaintball

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Posted 21 March 2012 - 05:54 PM

I love that cooky changed his avatar because of this lol.


let me know if you find any good porn on it, always got room on the thumbdrive :-)

Especially with this SOPA shit...Mikes piling porn in there like a squirrel gettin ready for winter.


#86 misterkyle

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Posted 23 March 2012 - 09:49 PM

i cant read this without laughing :lol:

#87 raisebarhere

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Posted 30 March 2012 - 06:36 PM

punkworks have multiple tests to prove you wrong
paintballs are not bullets they do not follow the same physics
quit trolling
/thread


LMFAO, "They dont follow the same physics"


lol
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Put this in your Sig if you are under 18 and pay for all of your own Paintball gear.

#88 Jordii

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Posted 30 March 2012 - 06:38 PM

This thread was just a flame fest, and it's now over a week old. To the guy above me, there was no need to necro this.
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If you're under 18 and pay for your gear, put this in your sig.

#89 RADO

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Posted 30 March 2012 - 09:21 PM

I was just was reading a post and say this quote - "all paintball guns have the same accuracy" That is just not true, and I do not know where they heard such a thing. Accuracy is complicated, more complicated for paintball markers that for gums because the projectile is so unstable, but there are a lot aspects that can and do make a difference; velocity, pressure, bore size, bore quality, barrel length, gun confront, recoil, trigger, weight, etc...

Let's start out with a definition of accuracy; to make it simple we will make it ability to - "hit what you are shooting". We will also assume that the paint is of good quality, because without quality paint, the rest of these factors are less important. This take two thing the marker must be consistent (precision) and the shooter must be able to acquire and stay on target when the trigger is squeezed. Precision is the consistent repeatability of the marker; if your marker shots with a +/- of 15 - 30 FPS (about 5-10%), then your impact point will be different, about 1-2 feet at 100 feet.... no matter what. The faster shots will impact higher, the slower ones will impact lower. Better markers with better regulators will keep the FPS more like 3 - 6 FPS (1-2%), which is far more consistent making shot drop more like a 2-3 inch difference at 100 feet.

Operating Pressure: this related to the impact of the very unstable paintball, the more pressure, the more deformation, also making paint brittleness more of a factor. Lower pressure = better precision. Seems anything under 200 is good, under 150 even better. Bore Quality - this is more of a barrel discussion and is has to do with spin and stability. A rough bore will cases spin. Spin (unless controlled like and Apex or Flatline barrel) in paintball is bad, and it makes the paintball flight less consistent so less precise. Also, it is hard on paint, making the higher quality "brittle" paint less usable. A good bore with treat the paintballs the same on each shot, making them repeatable, resulting in more precision. If you have good paint, a smooth bore and operate at lower pressure, them bore size can be reduced, making for good accuracy and more efficiency.



Everything above is either false or irrelevant due to the fact that paintballs are not only imperfect in shape (regaurdless if it high quality) but they are also filled with paint. The trajectory and physics are drastically changed with fluid moving around inside the paintball. Also no barrel will change the accuracy of the ball unless it is scratched, damaged or coated with oil.


Generally when talking about the accuracy of something that launches a projectile, the speaker technically means the precision of it. They are discussing how close will each shot land to the last and the next because that can actually be compared to another gun, if they mean the actual definition of accuracy a thread would have to say "how accurate is gun X with player X shooting compared to gun Y with player Y shooting" In other words when talking about the topic of accuarcy in the real world (not lab tests or formal experiment, just average people talking), people are reffering to the accepted definition of accuracy (which is how close each shot is relative to other shots in that grouping), instead of the actual definition that you are arguing.



Everything below is irrelevant to accuracy because that is the user aspect of the gun, not the gun, to talk about the gun's accuracy means just that, THE GUN, not the gun player relationship.

Now that we have precision out of the way, let's talk about accuracy - while you cannot have accuracy without precision, you can have precision without accuracy. If you have a perfectly shooting marker in a vice and it puts 100 shots in a 6 inch circle, that is precision. If you can not move the marker, or it is too heavy to hold up, you still can not hit anything, so this is were the rest of the list is important. Barrel length, while less important for precision helps with accuracy since it gives the shooter a better sighting plain making aiming easier and more consistent, seems 12-16 inches works best for most. Comfort has to do with your ability to be repeatable, if you are not able to hold, or point the marker, you cannot be consistent. Comfort also includes some of the other aspects listed; recoil, trigger weight and geometry. In order to make multiple shots quickly, recoil is a factor; the more recoil, the further you are taken off-target and the slower your recovery time between shots. The trigger needs to be predictable and should be light enough that squeezing it does not take you off-target, or shot when you are not intending to shoot.

Weight is always a factor, as is the balance of the weight - if a marker is too heavy moving it will be hard to start and stop. I do not want to get too technical, just imagine how much easier it is to move your arms holding a tennis ball compared to a bowling ball. Not just weight, balance is important too, hold a broom in the middle it will seem light, hold it out gripping the handle end it will seem heavy, hold it on the broom-end it will seem lighter - all the while the actual weight has not changed - some of the better, markers, tanks and hopper have better weight distribution making them easier to move, point and deal with recoil.

Now this is far more than I intended to write and it still does not go into the technical aspects or any direct marker comparisons, but leave knowing "all paintball guns DO NOT have the same accuracy"


/thread



ok i just read the last post after typing all of this and realized that this thread is pretty much dead but i already typed it all soo im posting anyway.

Edited by RADO, 30 March 2012 - 09:22 PM.


#90 robot0ninja

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Posted 08 April 2012 - 06:51 PM


physics is physics guys, it doesnt matter whats flying through the air. if it goes faster, it goes farther, if it doesnt go as fast, it doesnt travel as far. if you shoot one paintball at 270 fps and one at 300 fps, they will hit the ground at the same time (considering both guns are shot in the same place, at the same time, pointing in the same direction) but the one traveling at 270 fps will travel less as far. now lets say youre shooting an ego 11 at 280-285 fps. you can take an older style spyder and chrono it with an average of 280-285 fps, but every shot will be drastically different. spyders (especially ones without broken in springs) are terribly inconsistent. they can shoot anywhere from 220-300 fps in ten shots. the ego is a more precise gun than a spyder in terms of putting the ball in the same place every time. now if you have the same person shooting both guns, the ego will be more accurate. accuracy can only be achieved through the human variable. if you want to see my data, check out newton's laws of physics? never shot a brand new spyder? go buy one for 50 bucks from walmart.

and for those saying pros use the best only at all times, why do so many teams use an empire axe and beat teams using egos? yes, an ego is hundreds times better than a spyder, but theres a point where youre just paying for the name in paintball, not the gun.

also, you guys think that anyone who has a lot of posts and has been on a forum for years is automatically a credible scientist. mike is not a scientist and has never claimed to be one. you people will credit anyone just because they have a lot posts.


Did you read cookies thread? I guess not, your theory may sound logical, especially if applied to actual weapons, but this is paintball, velocity control may allow for a more consistent shot, but none the more accurate.

The reasons pros use the guns they do is because the high end guns are super efficient, consistent, and weigh practically nothing. However, none more accurate.

We never said mike or cookie are scientists, but i can almost guarantee you they have more experience in the field of paintball than you. So we consider what they say, reliable and valuable.

I never said a gun itself is more accurate than another. I am saying an Ego will be more accurate than a spyder in the hands of the SAME PERSON because they know most of their shots will land in the same place because the gun itself is more precise. How can someone be accurate with a paintball gun that can shoot 220 fps one shot and 300 fps the next???? I am saying a person is more accurate with a more precise consistent gun.

And for your comment about my theory sounding logical. My theory is not a theory, they are LAWS OF PHYSICS PROVEN BY ISAAC NEWTON. I dont care what the fuck is flying through the air. If 2 identical objects (or even remotely similar such as 2 different paintballs) are flying through the air, the one traveling faster will travel farther. You sir are a complete idiot if you are saying that is incorrect. Its like saying "this forum really isnt a forum because its paintball. Paintball doesnt apply to normal rules and laws of nature."

#91 andrewthewookie

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Posted 08 April 2012 - 06:55 PM

How can someone be accurate with a paintball gun that can shoot 220 fps one shot and 300 fps the next????

Not even an un-regged spyder is that bad.

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#92 Cookybiscuit

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Posted 08 April 2012 - 06:56 PM

I never said a gun itself is more accurate than another. I am saying an Ego will be more accurate than a spyder in the hands of the SAME PERSON because they know most of their shots will land in the same place because the gun itself is more precise. How can someone be accurate with a paintball gun that can shoot 220 fps one shot and 300 fps the next???? I am saying a person is more accurate with a more precise consistent gun.

Spyders and most other blowbacks never really get that bad, when running with HPA tank that has a decent reg, as long as the paint is good you can quite easily stay under the 15+/- FPS golden zone.

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#93 robot0ninja

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Posted 08 April 2012 - 07:00 PM


I never said a gun itself is more accurate than another. I am saying an Ego will be more accurate than a spyder in the hands of the SAME PERSON because they know most of their shots will land in the same place because the gun itself is more precise. How can someone be accurate with a paintball gun that can shoot 220 fps one shot and 300 fps the next???? I am saying a person is more accurate with a more precise consistent gun.

Spyders and most other blowbacks never really get that bad, when running with HPA tank that has a decent reg, as long as the paint is good you can quite easily stay under the 15+/- FPS golden zone.

it depends on how used it is. if the main spring has been broken in, then yeah i agree. a year old or younger spyder (or main spring) will be very inconsistent no matter how good everything else is. this is 7 years of experience with spyder and spyder clone shooting.

#94 andrewthewookie

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Posted 08 April 2012 - 07:04 PM

So I suppose the 4 Spyders and 2 TIppmanns that had I've shot since they were brand new and had decent consistency were just anomalies then?

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#95 robot0ninja

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Posted 08 April 2012 - 07:52 PM

theyre fine after the springs broken in, but new springs are terribly inconsistent

#96 andrewthewookie

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Posted 08 April 2012 - 07:53 PM

And like I just said, all 6 of those blowbacks were adequately consistent brand new.

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#97 madsnipes

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Posted 08 April 2012 - 08:30 PM

Somebody just close this thread it's just been one flame war after another




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