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what jogging really does


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#1 Zorozeenee

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Posted 02 April 2012 - 11:12 PM

Well first off i want this to be quick and clear. Jogging does burn fat (surprise surprise) but what it also does is gets rid of your muscles youve worked so hard to get. If you have problems with your weight please jog, but if youve built yourself i would strongly discourage it. My weight lifting instructor starting jogging. He is 250 and jacked and built. He lost 10 pounds and his brother also a weight lifting instructor, thought he was sick. But what he found out is that jogging very slowly doesnt detract from your muscles.
http://www.fitfastat...om/tag/jogging. Heres some proof for skeptical kids, seriously google it
http://www.davedrape...ing-cardio.html
http://www.buildingm...you-lose-muscle

Burned by your body for energy in order: carbs, fats, proteins

Edited by Zorozeenee, 03 April 2012 - 12:25 AM.

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#2 andrewthewookie

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Posted 02 April 2012 - 11:14 PM

And you have testing to back this up, or just this story? There could be many different things contribution to that happening.

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#3 Zorozeenee

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Posted 02 April 2012 - 11:17 PM

This is a simplified personal story. It has also been researched and proven, google it. Anyways its just not well known. But i want to be clear, if ir fat jog. If your big (as in muscles) dont
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#4 andrewthewookie

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Posted 02 April 2012 - 11:19 PM

Um, you brought up the claims, so the burden of proof is on you. I remain skeptical. I was also unable to find anything about it on google.

Edited by andrewthewookie, 02 April 2012 - 11:21 PM.

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#5 Zorozeenee

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Posted 02 April 2012 - 11:26 PM

I presented a personal story of my weight lifting instructor, if you dont want to listen then dont post the proof is in his story, why are distance runners skinny?
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#6 Zorozeenee

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Posted 02 April 2012 - 11:28 PM

Here read how muscle tissues are wasted away by jogging
http://www.fitfastat...com/tag/jogging
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#7 Zorozeenee

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Posted 02 April 2012 - 11:39 PM

Jogging burns fat and muscle, thats the problem

Edited by Zorozeenee, 02 April 2012 - 11:44 PM.

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#8 Molybdenum

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Posted 02 April 2012 - 11:53 PM

I fail to see how jogging should be different from any other cardio activity. By this logic, cycling, distance swimming, and cross county skiing should also produce such an effect.

#9 andrewthewookie

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Posted 02 April 2012 - 11:54 PM

Firstly, I don't think you understand what the word proof means. You have no proof. You have a story in which no testing was done, no variables were taken out of the equation, and to which the possible reason was assumed.

Proof:
a : the cogency of evidence that compels acceptance by the mind of a truth or a fact
b
: the process or an instance of establishing the validity of a statement especially by derivation from other statements in accordance with principles of reasoning

You have no facts or evidence, only an anecdotal story. Even if jogging were the cause, you still wouldn't have any actual proof that it was.


Also, I scoured Google, and your link was the only one that mentioned muscle loss from jogging. There was one site that mentioned muscle cannibalism, but that was from people on severe diets who had unhealthy weight loss.

Plus, if you're prepared to make claims, you have to be prepared to face criticism of those claims. That's how science/the world works.

Edited by andrewthewookie, 02 April 2012 - 11:55 PM.

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#10 Zorozeenee

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Posted 03 April 2012 - 12:11 AM

Do u want me to find more sources? Cuz its so obvious when u come to think of it. All lomg distance runners are skinny. After fat has been burned your body burns muscle and there fore a loss in muscle mass
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#11 andrewthewookie

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Posted 03 April 2012 - 12:16 AM

I'll just say this: they're skinny because they don't workout to build muscle. Anyone can be skinny without running or working out.

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#12 Zorozeenee

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Posted 03 April 2012 - 12:17 AM

After fat has been burned your body will birns muscles
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#13 Zorozeenee

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Posted 03 April 2012 - 12:27 AM

I fail to see how jogging should be different from any other cardio activity. By this logic, cycling, distance swimming, and cross county skiing should also produce such an effect.

They do, im not contrasting jogging with other cardio. You are correct, jogging is just the exercise my instructor did and lost muscle mass from.
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#14 Distortion_UK

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Posted 03 April 2012 - 04:53 AM

read the article and I'm still skeptical. What qualifications does that guy have? where was his test. Ive looked for actually journals on this and nothing. I smell bullshit. Its just one guys opinion.

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#15 Eskimo

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Posted 03 April 2012 - 08:25 AM

my question: If jogging removes muscle mass, What about sprinting? Cycling? swimming?
if all forms of Cardio are out then guys with large muscle masses are losing a MASSIVE advantage to their work outs.
Building muscle is fine and dandy, but if your heart still pumps like a sickly 5 year old in sick kids. those muscles will never be able to move to their potential.

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#16 Toat

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Posted 03 April 2012 - 09:46 AM

"Burned by your body for energy in order: carbs, fats, proteins"

Ok, so it just comes down to what your goals are. If you are a body builder on a low fat diet on a strict lifting regiment...why would you want to go out and run a marathon? It's common sense. But if you are an overweight individual with fat to burn, jogging is the most effective activity to burn fat.

Grossly oversimplified claims like "jogging gets rid of your muscles" are just ignorant and easily misinterpreted by the general population, so in the end I don't really see the point of this post, unless you are speaking specifically to body builders.

#17 DarkSide

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Posted 03 April 2012 - 03:47 PM

your trainer must have been over training
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#18 TechPB-Mike

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Posted 03 April 2012 - 04:31 PM

if you are already in amazing shape, you obviously have to been VERY careful about doing excessive amounts of cardio with a low body fat percentage, especially if your diet is right

Your body will burn muscle, just as quickly as it will burn fat.


For fat loss, I recommend running a balanced, calorie deficit diet, along with light cardio. This is what I did and lost 100+ pounds.


Very light cardio (walking, ping pong, etc), calorie deficient diet, weight came off

#19 Toat

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Posted 03 April 2012 - 05:05 PM

Very light cardio (paintball), calorie deficient diet, weight came off

fixed this for you ;)

#20 jdatkinsn

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Posted 04 April 2012 - 12:59 PM

A lot of claims in this thread without any science.

Let's back up a touch. To think that at any one point in time your body is burning anything exclusively as a fuel source is nonsensical- everyone, regardless of how much they know about human endocrinology, can wrap their heads around this. You're never burning just fat or just muscle tissue or just glucose from the toast you had for breakfast. You're always burning some combination of the food you've eaten, your own body fat, ketone bodies (usually in transient amounts, but still) and, on occasion, muscle tissue.

You can look at lab measures of respiratory quotient to verify this- after a night's sleep, most peoples RQ lies between .80 and .84. An RQ of .69 is pure fat metabolism, and RQ of 1.0 is pure glucose. After a starch and sugar heavy meal you're probably in the .90 to .94 range, but you're still burning some body fat. Whether or not you're adding back even more is irrelevant to the fact that some is always being burned.

The next thing to consider is that jogging, even if it's for an hour or more, is inconsequential to the hormones in your body that actually regulate whether or not you lose fat. Weight loss is much more than a matter of energy balance- it's about your fasting insulin, your blood sugar, your thyroid hormones, etc. To think that some jogging a few times a week would have a meaningful effect absent dietary change is like think that you can permanently keep your heart rate at 180bpm just by running for half an hour. Yes, it elevates for a few minutes, but then homeostasis takes over. The running was inconsequential. Eat a bowl of oatmeal 30 minutes before your run and guess what you're burning? Oatmeal. Not muscle, not fat, not any statistically significant amount at least.

"It's science, google it" is not proof of a concept. Anyone who offers you that explanation and won't explain it to you themselves is probably wrong. Doesn't matter if you're talking about nutrition or astrophysics- if someone tells you "I just know, it's been proven", they're probably full of shit.

#21 Distortion_UK

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Posted 04 April 2012 - 06:32 PM

Hallelujah a voice of reason.

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#22 Zorozeenee

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Posted 05 April 2012 - 05:01 PM

my question: If jogging removes muscle mass, What about sprinting? Cycling? swimming?
if all forms of Cardio are out then guys with large muscle masses are losing a MASSIVE advantage to their work outs.
Building muscle is fine and dandy, but if your heart still pumps like a sickly 5 year old in sick kids. those muscles will never be able to move to their potential.


u need to read the thread cardio removes muscle if your already in good shape, light cardio doesnt. Sprinting is an anaerobic activity so its not really cardio unless done a lot
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#23 Zorozeenee

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Posted 05 April 2012 - 05:03 PM

A lot of claims in this thread without any science.

Let's back up a touch. To think that at any one point in time your body is burning anything exclusively as a fuel source is nonsensical- everyone, regardless of how much they know about human endocrinology, can wrap their heads around this. You're never burning just fat or just muscle tissue or just glucose from the toast you had for breakfast. You're always burning some combination of the food you've eaten, your own body fat, ketone bodies (usually in transient amounts, but still) and, on occasion, muscle tissue.

You can look at lab measures of respiratory quotient to verify this- after a night's sleep, most peoples RQ lies between .80 and .84. An RQ of .69 is pure fat metabolism, and RQ of 1.0 is pure glucose. After a starch and sugar heavy meal you're probably in the .90 to .94 range, but you're still burning some body fat. Whether or not you're adding back even more is irrelevant to the fact that some is always being burned.

The next thing to consider is that jogging, even if it's for an hour or more, is inconsequential to the hormones in your body that actually regulate whether or not you lose fat. Weight loss is much more than a matter of energy balance- it's about your fasting insulin, your blood sugar, your thyroid hormones, etc. To think that some jogging a few times a week would have a meaningful effect absent dietary change is like think that you can permanently keep your heart rate at 180bpm just by running for half an hour. Yes, it elevates for a few minutes, but then homeostasis takes over. The running was inconsequential. Eat a bowl of oatmeal 30 minutes before your run and guess what you're burning? Oatmeal. Not muscle, not fat, not any statistically significant amount at least.

"It's science, google it" is not proof of a concept. Anyone who offers you that explanation and won't explain it to you themselves is probably wrong. Doesn't matter if you're talking about nutrition or astrophysics- if someone tells you "I just know, it's been proven", they're probably full of shit.


would u mind reading the thread, jogging will remove muscle mass if you are in already good shape and do more than just light cardio.
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#24 drexler

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Posted 05 April 2012 - 07:46 PM

Yes and it really doesn't matter. The only person who would take issue to this is a competitive body builder.

In my opinion you shouldn't be looking to be a big as possible, you should find that balance between cardiovascular fitness and work capacity. I see most people who are jacked and I know they can't put out continuously compared to me.

#25 RIP-Buttercup

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Posted 06 April 2012 - 12:53 AM

Read the articles again. Not one says don't jog, they all say don't excessive jog. In fact two of them pretty clearly say to do cardio, including jogging.

Edited by RIP-Buttercup, 06 April 2012 - 12:53 AM.

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#26 drexler

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Posted 06 April 2012 - 09:41 AM

Read the articles again. Not one says don't jog, they all say don't excessive jog. In fact two of them pretty clearly say to do cardio, including jogging.


Problem is that the article doesn't specify what excessive is. In their eyes it could be 10 miles or 50 feet. Posted Image

#27 Luke_850222

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Posted 06 April 2012 - 10:08 AM

So we can all agree that jogging helps you on the paintball field more than lifting weights.
It builds endurance, and trains your body to pace itself. I guarantee you the pro players are out jogging everyday to make sure they can perform as well as they need to.

#28 RIP-Buttercup

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Posted 06 April 2012 - 02:06 PM


Read the articles again. Not one says don't jog, they all say don't excessive jog. In fact two of them pretty clearly say to do cardio, including jogging.


Problem is that the article doesn't specify what excessive is. In their eyes it could be 10 miles or 50 feet. Posted Image


Well one of those was a forum, and the recommendation there was 10-15 miles a week. The other one recommended running about 1-3 miles a day, putting it into the same category. Which for anyone not looking to do endurance sports, but is right about where any other athlete or person wanting good health should go.

Edited by RIP-Buttercup, 06 April 2012 - 02:07 PM.

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#29 drexler

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Posted 06 April 2012 - 06:18 PM



Read the articles again. Not one says don't jog, they all say don't excessive jog. In fact two of them pretty clearly say to do cardio, including jogging.


Problem is that the article doesn't specify what excessive is. In their eyes it could be 10 miles or 50 feet. Posted Image


Well one of those was a forum, and the recommendation there was 10-15 miles a week. The other one recommended running about 1-3 miles a day, putting it into the same category. Which for anyone not looking to do endurance sports, but is right about where any other athlete or person wanting good health should go.


I'm pushing 2x 5 mile runs per week along with a 1.5m sprint. Combined with swimming 1 mile 3x times per week. Along with crossfitting 4x days per week (and whatever runs are involved in the WOD) I easily push 16 - 17 miles and I'm not some skinny little twig. (I'm training for military SF). My point being, you shouldn't be training to get better, you should be working towards a body that can do more work. A nice appearance goes along with that.

#30 SavageSnipes

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Posted 06 April 2012 - 07:23 PM

OP is straight up dumb. cardio is not this catabolic muscle eating machine. prolonged moderate intensity cardio is what is best for fat loss.

the reason your trainer lost muscle tissue is because he wasn't taking in enough calories to compensate for the extra activity he was doing. if you don't want to lose your muscle tissue while doing cardio, up your protein and complex carb intake.

#31 Zorozeenee

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Posted 08 April 2012 - 01:00 PM

Read the articles again. Not one says don't jog, they all say don't excessive jog. In fact two of them pretty clearly say to do cardio, including jogging.

No, its saying jog if ur in decent or bad shape. But if your in good shape it may get rid of muscle tissue

OP is straight up dumb. cardio is not this catabolic muscle eating machine. prolonged moderate intensity cardio is what is best for fat loss.

the reason your trainer lost muscle tissue is because he wasn't taking in enough calories to compensate for the extra activity he was doing. if you don't want to lose your muscle tissue while doing cardio, up your protein and complex carb intake.

Please cite your sources again all 3 of my sources say cardio removes muscle mass if ur already in good shape
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#32 Distortion_UK

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Posted 08 April 2012 - 01:22 PM


Read the articles again. Not one says don't jog, they all say don't excessive jog. In fact two of them pretty clearly say to do cardio, including jogging.

No, its saying jog if ur in decent or bad shape. But if your in good shape it may get rid of muscle tissue

OP is straight up dumb. cardio is not this catabolic muscle eating machine. prolonged moderate intensity cardio is what is best for fat loss.

the reason your trainer lost muscle tissue is because he wasn't taking in enough calories to compensate for the extra activity he was doing. if you don't want to lose your muscle tissue while doing cardio, up your protein and complex carb intake.

Please cite your sources again all 3 of my sources say cardio removes muscle mass if ur already in good shape


You don't have sources. You have individuals stating their opinion with no fact. No research and no verification. Come back when you have actuall sources.

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#33 drexler

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Posted 08 April 2012 - 04:55 PM



Read the articles again. Not one says don't jog, they all say don't excessive jog. In fact two of them pretty clearly say to do cardio, including jogging.

No, its saying jog if ur in decent or bad shape. But if your in good shape it may get rid of muscle tissue

OP is straight up dumb. cardio is not this catabolic muscle eating machine. prolonged moderate intensity cardio is what is best for fat loss.

the reason your trainer lost muscle tissue is because he wasn't taking in enough calories to compensate for the extra activity he was doing. if you don't want to lose your muscle tissue while doing cardio, up your protein and complex carb intake.

Please cite your sources again all 3 of my sources say cardio removes muscle mass if ur already in good shape


You don't have sources. You have individuals stating their opinion with no fact. No research and no verification. Come back when you have actuall sources.


This, bring us articles from medical journals backing your opinion up.




#34 Molybdenum

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Posted 08 April 2012 - 11:31 PM

bring us articles from medical journals backing your opinion up.


I say 4 to 1 odds this never happens. Posted Image

EDIT:

http://www.jstor.org/

Maybe, just maybe...

Edited by Molybdenum, 08 April 2012 - 11:32 PM.


#35 epikfailpaintball

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Posted 09 April 2012 - 08:32 AM

I'm not saying the statement about after burning fat you burn muscle isn't true, it is, but only in extreme circumstances. YOU MUST BURN THE CARBS (carbs = energy) FIRST. Then you burn fat, THEN you burn muscle. Long distance runners who do it seriously make sure to eat plenty of carbs for energy so they don't do that.

I feel that if your trainer was jogging, he could have lost fat that he didn't know he had. OR it is very possible that with how he works out, trains, and excercises almost every day he could have not eaten enough carbs and calories to sustain his work out, thus him losing muscle.

I'm not saying he didn't lose muscle. I'm just saying that science isn't backing up your statement.

#36 Doctor Hank

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Posted 09 April 2012 - 03:32 PM

Jogging will not waste muscle tissue, that is simply false. However, what is possible is that those who combine high intensity or prolonged cardiovascular activity with a weight lifting regimen might find their gains are slowing down. This is common sense as energy and nutrients have to be directed to both replenishing glycogen stores used in cardio and feeding muscle that your are trying to build. Protein can be used as energy in cardio exercise, it just simply needs to be changed into a usable form which your body can do through a metabolic pathway, much in the same way it can use lactic acid to fuel you, however your body wont be tapping into your own muscles for energy unless you are severely malnourished or underweight. Your body as a rather large store of glycogen in both your muscles and, primarily, in your liver, so I doubt anyone is losing muscle because of cardio. However, if one is not increasing the caloric intake if combining both cardio and weight lifting, mass will go down just because the calories out is now greater than those in.

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#37 jdatkinsn

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Posted 09 April 2012 - 04:43 PM

Jogging will not waste muscle tissue, that is simply false. However, what is possible is that those who combine high intensity or prolonged cardiovascular activity with a weight lifting regimen might find their gains are slowing down. This is common sense as energy and nutrients have to be directed to both replenishing glycogen stores used in cardio and feeding muscle that your are trying to build. Protein can be used as energy in cardio exercise, it just simply needs to be changed into a usable form which your body can do through a metabolic pathway, much in the same way it can use lactic acid to fuel you, however your body wont be tapping into your own muscles for energy unless you are severely malnourished or underweight. Your body as a rather large store of glycogen in both your muscles and, primarily, in your liver, so I doubt anyone is losing muscle because of cardio. However, if one is not increasing the caloric intake if combining both cardio and weight lifting, mass will go down just because the calories out is now greater than those in.

Source:
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Your blunt, absolute calorie math disregards the (more important) role hormesis plays in all this, but for the most part, yes.

#38 Doctor Hank

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Posted 09 April 2012 - 05:11 PM

I thought it best to leave out the roles of lactate dehydrogenase, Cori cycle, and basic proteolysis in a techpb discussion, however I can delve into it if you would like ;)

#39 Doctor Hank

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Posted 09 April 2012 - 05:14 PM

Also, hormesis (which I expect is what you meant since it is what you wrote, and not homeostasis), has a negligible role to play in standard exercise. That is more in the realm of a complete physical exhaustion type of scenario.

#40 Eskimo

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Posted 09 April 2012 - 05:47 PM

RedBull makes me run faster :)












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#41 Kirko017

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Posted 09 April 2012 - 07:15 PM

So we can all agree that jogging helps you on the paintball field more than lifting weights.
It builds endurance, and trains your body to pace itself. I guarantee you the pro players are out jogging everyday to make sure they can perform as well as they need to.


Neh, the Pros are just on the juice... :dodgy:

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#42 Scoobydoo51

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Posted 10 April 2012 - 09:10 PM

First Off I would like to say that I myself am a swimmer. During the season all I do is swim, eat, rest. I gained 10 pounds over the season. Most of it muscle. I'm quite sure if you balance your caloric intake with the amount of cardio you do, then you will not lose your muscle. Just feed your body better.
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#43 Zorozeenee

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Posted 13 April 2012 - 05:28 PM

Well mike himself posted here and agreed with me, lokk for yourself
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#44 Distortion_UK

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Posted 13 April 2012 - 08:09 PM

Well mike himself posted here and agreed with me, lokk for yourself

As much as I respect mike, he doesn't have qualifications, research or data on the matter. You are also yet to provide any proof that our statement is true. Lots of opinions but no facts.

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#45 Eskimo

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Posted 13 April 2012 - 08:51 PM

Well mike himself posted here and agreed with me, look for yourself


I did, and like a normal scientifically literate human being I ask myself. Why would mike agree? What are his reasons to agree with the statement.
To what degree does this statement apply?
WHY does the statement apply?

And to all of those. Your statement that "Jogging reduces muscle mass" Means NOTHING. You might have well said "Jerking off every night is a great arm work-out"

Jogging is a dynamic process of MANY things. And while your heart rates increase, your also doing impact training, Muscle training. As many muscles are used in running. chest, Abdominal muscles, glutes, legs, calves, arms, neck muscles, back muscles. Pretty much your whole body is working in ether stabilizing your body, or moving it forward. Expanding your chest cavity (thus inhaling air) or compressing the cavity, thus exhaling air. your body is building and fighting a build up of lactic acid. Your artery's are being expanded and stretched like rubber bands allowing for more blood. your body is moving blood to muscles and away from your digestive tract. your releasing hormones into your blood stream, building new blood cells. reducing the rate of urine build up

So What is it that reduces muscle? Jogging? Because then that's everything. and jogging itself means nothing. its just moving at a faster pace then walking. Which is subjective to everyone.
So dont walk then? Walking reduces muscle mass at a slower pace then jogging. So DONT WALK. EVER.

Seem like bad advice? It follows from dont jog.

Cardiovascular Exercise should NEVER be discarded from a persons activities. your heart puts blood to the muscles. no point in having muscle mass if you Cannot get blood there quickly and efficiently. So someone starts including cardiovascular training, and as a result loses muscle mass.

Make a hypothesis of WHY that is.
Does the body react differently? Does the focus shift to more blood cells, more blood vessels, heart tissue. more DENSE muscles, rather than inflated muscles? Can you even have different muscle densities? How about remove mass on the top end of the body as it makes it harder to balance and work if the lower end isn't strong enough. what about composition of muscles? Storage of oxygen? or the amount of slow twitch and fast twitch fibers. or the intermediate fibers? what becomes useful?

The Forums are a great place to ask WHY. Sure, you may not know. But thats why you can ask it.
However, blatantly saying something, with little proof, and little background info results in bad choices. Remember that other people read what you say.
So expect someone to read it.

It must be clear. and offer points from both sides. medium grounds, understanding of the topic.

Do you see why we are displeased with your original post?

Edited by Eskimo, 13 April 2012 - 08:56 PM.

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#46 Paintball Wizard

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Posted 13 April 2012 - 10:53 PM

Just to weigh in here as a cross country and distance track runner, it depends on the situation. Of course if you jog regularly and do not consume enough calories to meet your body's needs, it will take energy from fat and muscle tissue. You will never be 'big' if you want to have endurance as well. You can choose endurance, strength, or (the best option) find a happy medium. Run a workout and then lift weights, all the while make sure you are meeting your daily caloric needs. Some of the guys on my team lift just as much as the football players and run about seven miles a day.
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