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Lotus' Budget Baller guide for just starting out


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#1 Lotus

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Posted 20 April 2012 - 10:50 PM

Let me preface this by saying this is my opinion. I feel very strongly about what I'm saying here and I believe myself to be right, so I'll pull no punches. I also assume you are playing at a local field. Here goes.

The first thing people new to paintball should understand is that if you stay with it, the cost of playing far exceeds the cost of your starting gear. When you consider the true cost of playing, it can be staggeringly expensive. The gas to get you there, food, drink and the miscellaneous stuff like batteries and microfiber cloths can really add to the traditional expenses of paint and entry. Don't forget to include these factors when considering the true cost of paintball. This shit is expensive, but below are my recommendations for what you can do and how to keep costs down.

On Renting Gear
Renting is actually a very good option. Most rental packages that I have seen start at around $35 and include the field fee and all day air with them. Considering a field fee and all day air is usually $15-20 already, that means renting only costs you $15-20 per time, which when you factor in the other costs is not big. If you were to purchase your own cheapo setup (which is in most cases inferior to rental setups in all aspects except mask and cleanliness) you would have to play at least 8 times before you even began to come out even. Plus most people do not stick with a setup like that long and there is no resale. I strongly recommend renting. Renting is not throwing away money. That extra $15 every time is preventing you from buying a $150-$250 setup that you're not likely to use for long because either 1) You quit paintball or 2) You kept with paintball and decided you needed better than sub-standard gear. Please rent! Don't buy your own gear (except for a mask). I can't emphasize this enough.

What should I buy to start with?
That's a difficult question. There are two big things you need to ask yourself: am I going to stick with it and what's my budget?

If you're not sure that you're going to stick with it and/or your budget is sub $150, there is only one piece of equipment I recommend you start with: a Mask. Picking a mask can be very tricky as much of it comes down to personal preference. The cheapest mask currently available that I would consider purchasing is the Invert Helix mask with a thermal lense. After that your options become VForce Profiler ($70), and then the $100 super-masks. For newbies I would stay away from the JT line, period. Do not touch, not even the ProFlex (which is actually what I currently use). It's not for most people. You would then rent the rest. With your own mask and renting, you will save money over buying your own cheap-o setup and actually be using better gear on the field. It's a win-win.

If you're sure you're going to stick with it and/or your budget is around $300, you're in a weird sort of limbo. You cannot yet hit that critical point where buying your own setup is better than the rental setup without wasting money on throw-away pieces of shit like CO2 and a Grav Fed loader, but yet you can afford more than the first option. I personally would just let that money burn a hole in my pocket rather than spending it immediately. Having the reserves to be able to go play paintball when you want to is a great feeling. However if you must, then I would pick up a mask (this time a minimum VForce Profiler), a hopper (Invert Halo TOO or used V2 Prophecy (not Z2, but V2s are great and reasonably priced used right now), and a brand new 68/4500 Carbon Fiber Tank of your choice (my choice is a Ninja for $150 or a generic/universal one for $110). Then you rent essentially just the marker. At this point you could buy a throwaway marker for ~$75-$90, but again you'd have to use that marker around 5 times before even breaking even on renting, so if it were me I'd just rent.

If you're sure you're going to stick with it and your budget is around $450, congratulations! You've hit Lotus' desired minimum for purchasing your first full setup! Anything below this price point would leave you missing out on something major, but luckily a great setup can be had for $450. Here's what I would purchase: VForce Profiler ($70), Generic/Universal 68/4500 tank ($110), Invert Halo TOO ($70), and a GoG eNVy ($200, but if at all possible get the eXTCy for $250). If you can go used, it gets even better, but that's beyond the scope of this post. You no longer have to rent, and you are now responsible for all your own gear. This is the critical point, and I really mean that. Don't attempt to buy a full setup if you can't at least get the items described here.

More than $450: start looking into the eventual necessary gear expenses you may not be aware of. Do not start buying more expensive gear yet like the Planet Eclipse Etha or Empire Axe. The eventual necessary gear is far more important once you hit the critical point of gear as described in the $450 section.

Eventual Necessary Gear Expenses You May Not Be Aware of:
In addition to the What Should I Start With there are a few purchases you'll need to make when playing paintball. Here they are:
Gearbag- almost anything will do. For years I used a $15 large plain duffel bag and a smaller $10 gym bag together. The duffel bag for my clothes, marker case etc, the gym bag for my hopper, tank, and tools.
Tools & Lube- Depending on your marker purchase you may already have these. If not, picking these up is absolutely essential
Pod Pack & Pods-not everyone needs this, but the vast majority do. I used to recommend the NXE TP series, but basically anything cheap and of that style will work. Don't forget the pods.
Cleats- be they cleats or hiking boots, buying a pair is very recommend. Usually baseball/soccer cleats are recommended, but if you're looking for something for woodsball only and with ankle support, football cleats will work too. Boots aren't so great here, but are passable. Cheap is fine. I used $20 wal-mart cleats for a while.
Paintball Pants- again, not everyone needs this, but the vast majority do. If you do anything that puts your ass or legs on the ground, you're going to want paintball pants. For the cheap side, I've had great experiences with Proto. Always buy the oldest model year you can find that's still in stock in your size as they make little changes year to year, yet older years are significantly cheaper. I got my 2-year old Proto Pants brand new for $50. I hear Empire/Invert make good pants too. I wouldn't touch Valken.
Microfiber Cloths- are absolutely necessary. Can be found in the automotive section of Wal-Mart for cheap (like sub $5) or sometimes even your local grocery store.
Batteries- don't forget to stock up. Energizer/Duracell only. This is not the place to skimp.
Elbow Pads & Knee Pads- these would be the last items on my list to be honest. You don't actually need them, but they make playing much more enjoyable. Plus you can't really do lots of the speedball dives without them. Or at least you can't if your form isn't perfect or the grass isn't perfect.

Common "Budget" Item Traps You Should Avoid
This may be a controversial segment as this will contain pretty much what the majority will recommend to budget players. Here's the thing: renting is your friend. In case I haven't already made myself clear, buying your own gear that is only equal to the rental gear will take you several paintball trips to even break even. The common pitfall trap for budget minded people is buying gear that is only marginally better than rental gear. Let me give you an example. A 48/3000 Steely tank is a common budget trap. I would never buy one. Why? Because while functional, you're going to want to replace it should you stick with paintball, and there is absolutely no resale on it. If you buy a steely, and then decided a month or two later you want to buy a 68/4500 because it holds over twice as much air and weighs less, you've just wasted that original $50 for the steelie. That's not budget friendly, and in fact a complete waste. For only ~$60 more you could have bought a generic 68/4500 Carbon Fiber Tank with a 5 year Hydro test date. That money will never be wasted. If you decide to quit, the Carbon Fiber tank actually has resale (~60-70) so even then you come out ahead. You should never buy a steely because the Carbon Fiber tank works out better every time. Here is the full list of mediocre items that I would never consider buying:
Spyder/Spyder Clone
Tippmann/Tippmann Clone (seriously)
Steely Tank
Any loader worse than the Invert Halo TOO
any mask worse than the VForce Profiler (note: only exception is for the Invert Helix if you're not sure you want to stick with paintball)
Any pod pack worse than the NXE TP Series
Almost Anything Mil-Sim or Tactical. The markers are always based on a cheaper alternative that functions the same, and most of the time that also falls into this category. To stretch your dollar the farthest, stay away from bling features.

Okay, I am settled on my gear and know I'm sticking with it, now what?
First, always bring your own food and water. Nothing sucks more than being thirsty at a field and not wanting to pay that $2 for a drink, then buying it anyway, downing it, and finally still being thirsty because it's a tiny bottle. Bring your own refreshments. Always. I personally just buy those gallons of purified tap water from my local grocery store. They're cheap, portable, and they'll last the whole day. Also, when you buy your paint, there are two approaches. 1) Buy only a single bag (500) and use only a single bag. This is only for people who have great trigger control. I use to do it all the time, and even have paint left over, and hell I was using an Etek with a Pinokio and 68/4500 at the time. This option is for those who pick and choose their shots, not just pump players. The other option is to always buy by the case. You get a price break when you do that. Even if you don't use all the paint, you save it for next time and bring it back. Make sure you store it in a good climate controlled location, rotate it weekly, and keep it sealed air-tight. The last recommendation is to buy a field pass. This is only for those who want to play regularly at the same location. This combined with trigger control, bringing your own refreshments, buying by the case and keeping your paint, can lead you to play for literally $15 + gas money to get there per day. If you're only opening a single bag, don't have to pay the field fee, then you're a true budget baller. This is how you can play every weekend for an entire month and spend less than that one guy (you know who I'm talking about) does in a single day of paintball. Again, it's very important that you pick and choose your shots, have a field pass, and keep your old paint. Don't just waste it at the end of the day. Remember, the field pass is only worth it if you use it all the time. I bought a 6 month pass for $75, and so I didn't even break even until the 5th trip. Why was it worth it? Because in those 6 months I went at least 15 times, all for either a case of paint about every third of the time, or free (plus gas money and the $1.50 gallon jug of water).

Always Remember, Paintball is Expensive
If you don't like what you're reading here, there's a good chance paintball may not be for you. If you're not sure, rent. I can't stress how important buying just your own mask and renting is. "But Lotus! Rental Gear sucks!1!1!" No it doesn't. When I was on my previous team which was sponsored by a field, I would play at that field with their rental equipment because I wanted to be a part of a newbie friendly atmosphere. Yes I used my own mask (and paintball pants and pads), but the marker, hopper, and tank were all rental. It didn't matter. Being able to use my own mask (and it was a great mask too) made all the difference. So please, when in doubt, rent. Can't meet the $450 critical point, rent. Please rent!

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#2 Toat

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Posted 21 April 2012 - 07:14 AM

Here is the full list of mediocre items that I would never consider buying:
Spyder/Spyder Clone
Tippmann/Tippmann Clone (seriously)
Steely Tank

Any loader worse than the Invert Halo TOO
any mask worse than the VForce Profiler (note: only exception is for the Invert Helix if you're not sure you want to stick with paintball)
Any pod pack worse than the NXE TP Series
Almost Anything Mil-Sim or Tactical. The markers are always based on a cheaper alternative that functions the same, and most of the time that also falls into this category. To stretch your dollar the farthest, stay away from bling features.

Great looking guide and thank you for this part especially!
InB4 milsim and tippy fans, *flame retardant vest

#3 eastchesterparalysis

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Posted 24 April 2012 - 08:07 PM

Dangit I bought a Steelie already.

#4 Lotus

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Posted 25 April 2012 - 09:16 AM

It's not the end of the world. I actually find it kind of funny that Mike's budget baller 3.0 video contained a lot of the same opinions on stuff as I have here. I just didn't know the price of the Rail had dropped from $300 to $350. I still perfer the extcy though.

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#5 MMMerc

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Posted 26 April 2012 - 12:46 PM

Would ya mind if i stuffed this in my guide?

#6 Lotus

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Posted 27 April 2012 - 10:10 AM

Sure. It's always fun to see where the stuff I write goes.

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#7 MMMerc

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Posted 27 April 2012 - 12:02 PM

Alright buddy, will list you in the references and put your guide in there. :)

#8 Empire91

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Posted 27 April 2012 - 02:44 PM

Why does everyone hate on steelies?

Edited by Empire91, 27 April 2012 - 02:44 PM.


#9 MMMerc

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Posted 27 April 2012 - 03:22 PM

Why does everyone hate on steelies?


Idk, i dont like them, i can speak for me, their a better buy in my opinion.

#10 Empire91

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Posted 27 April 2012 - 03:32 PM

I mean, if you want HPA and you can't afford Carbon Fiber, they work just as well. They're just a little heavier.

#11 get.lit.up!

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Posted 27 April 2012 - 08:20 PM

Why does everyone hate on steelies?

Yea I wonder, people do use 13/3000 tanks yea know. Mainly pumpers though like you Empire
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#12 Empire91

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Posted 27 April 2012 - 08:44 PM

Well, the 13/3k is more of a specialty tank. But especially for budget ballers, aluminum tanks work great for a relatively low price.

#13 Empire91

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Posted 27 April 2012 - 08:57 PM

Here is the full list of mediocre items that I would never consider buying:
Spyder/Spyder Clone
Tippmann/Tippmann Clone (seriously) I agree with this part.

Steely Tank Ok, so for a budget baller, 60 dollars is something that could go towards something more important like a better mask. The weight difference isn't that great, and it's not like you're going to see any difference in shot quality. I've never seen a player do exceedingly better when using a Carbon Fiber tank over a steely.
Any loader worse than the Invert Halo TOO An argument could be made for a revvy, but I'll leave that one alone.
any mask worse than the VForce Profiler (note: only exception is for the Invert Helix if you're not sure you want to stick with paintball) I know this is what Mike says, and I try to stay away from quoting his opinions, but the V-Force ProVantage is a great mask for a budget baller. It offers great protection, and isn't uncomfortable by any means. The difference in price is about 30 dollars.
Any pod pack worse than the NXE TP Series Nothing wrong with this.
Almost Anything Mil-Sim or Tactical. The markers are always based on a cheaper alternative that functions the same, and most of the time that also falls into this category. To stretch your dollar the farthest, stay away from bling features. Totally agree.


Edited by Empire91, 27 April 2012 - 08:57 PM.


#14 MMMerc

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Posted 27 April 2012 - 09:03 PM

Sorry for not replying right away.

Uh reasons i dont like the steely's:

- Weight (When your tank weighs more then your gun it adds alot of imbalance and stresses your guns frame and asa and the tanks regulator)
- Cheap ones are cheap for a reason (Had two of mine crap out on the same day forcing me to stop playing)
- They dont look as cool :P
-

#15 Empire91

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Posted 27 April 2012 - 09:13 PM

Silly agglet, looking cool is an illusion. And what two tanks were you using?

#16 poliuy

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Posted 30 April 2012 - 02:29 AM

See the field I am at, it costs 70 dollars to rent a fucking dirty ass tippy (They don't clean them other than a shoddy wipe down) the barrel socks are always just full of paint, and end up getting your barrel full of paint. The masks have all their foam peeling off, and smell terrible, and the paint is bad. They also rent out steelies which have been used so much you can't even see the last hydro on them anymore. Oh and they don't chrono the tippy's so when a renter get shot they fucking hurt.

Bringing your own gear is about 30 bucks and includes all day air. Paint is 10 bucks cheaper if you sign up for their 5 dollar card also (25 dollar case of bronze)

So I'd go against the grain and say if your field charges you that much and has a shitty set up, just buy your own gear even if it is cheap. It will be 100 times better then renting.

#17 Lotus

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Posted 03 May 2012 - 10:24 AM

I would say you're in a very weird predicament. That really does not sound like any field a budget baller should visit. I've heard of fields with jacked up prices like that, and they're the opposite of budget friendly. My guide doesn't really cover you as you fit outside the realm of "typical."

As for the steel tank, I think you'll find my arguments already written above. It's not something I'd ever recommend because it really does limit you. I have a friend with a 50/4500 and a Geo2 and his air is a limiting factor in the amount of paint he can bring onto the field. That carbon fiber tank of his holds more than 50% extra air over a typical 47/3000 steely. If he had a steely, he would not be able to play paintball the way he wants to, and to me that is where I draw the line. The setup I recommended: Extcy, Invert halo TOO, Carbon Fiber Tank, and VForce Profiler are all functional at even the top levels of tournament play. They may have some minor disadvantages like weight and ergonomics compared to the superguns, but you can ball with the best of them with that setup. That cannot be said for a steely tank. Then consider that a Carbon Fiber tank doesn't incur any extra net cost compared to a Steely and you realize why I don't advocate steel tanks. Yes carbon fiber tanks are $50-60 more expensive than steel tanks, but they also have at least that value in extra resale, wherease steelies do not. Their net cost is no more than a Steely tank. Remember, paintball is expensive. You can't think about it solely in terms of initial gear purchases. It's so much more complicated than that. It's economics after all. I honestly feel that a Carbon Fiber tank is better in every way compared to a Steely. If you can't find that extra $50 when purchasing your gear, you shouldn't be making that purchase to begin with.

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#18 MMMerc

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Posted 03 May 2012 - 10:54 AM

Silly agglet, looking cool is an illusion. And what two tanks were you using?



They were some cheap 48/3000 guerillas

#19 Empire91

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Posted 03 May 2012 - 10:56 AM


Silly agglet, looking cool is an illusion. And what two tanks were you using?



They were some cheap 48/3000 guerillas


I had the guerrilla air one a long time ago, and I cross threaded the screws and it got stuck in my asa :( But GA sent me a new one, which was nice.

#20 MMMerc

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Posted 03 May 2012 - 01:19 PM

:o that is nice, well they are nice company so shouldn't suspect mush less. Ninja and Guerrilla, the 2 ways to go. and cross fire.

#21 Empire91

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Posted 03 May 2012 - 02:17 PM

First off, you're not getting 50% more shots. You're getting about a third more. Not sure how not doubling the pressure leads to doubling the shots. Secondly, not sure what extra net costs a steely incurs over a carbon fiber tank. You have to hydro test both of them either way. And this is a budget baller category. If you're on a budget, you aren't going to be looking for tournament grade stuff. Plus, this gear works just fine, and will allow someone to play pretty comfortably. Here's just a quick comparison without a gun, because any gun will work in this scenario.


Mask: V Force ProVantage 34.00$--------------V Force Profilers 70.00$
Tank: Guerrilla Air 62/3000 40.00$--------------Standard Empire 68/4500 140.00$
Total: 74.00$------------------------------------------------210.00$

That's money that can be put towards other things. And since the people that would be looking at buying this are on a budget, it's safe to say that they won't be shooting massive amounts of paint. A 68/3000 tank can get about 840 shots when using an average efficient gun. Granted, a 68/4500 can get around 1,200 but honestly, what budget baller is going to be shooting over half a case per game? That wouldn't be practical. So, aside from being a bit heavier, I don't see how for a budget baller you can say the steely will be less advantageous than the CF tank.

Edited by Empire91, 03 May 2012 - 02:18 PM.


#22 Lotus

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Posted 03 May 2012 - 03:00 PM

Having 50% more air is 50% more shots. If you do the math, a 68/4500 carbon fiber tank actually holds over twice as much air and therefore twice as much shots as a 48/3000 tank. It's math. The only reason I said slightly over 50% was because I was comparing a 50/4500 to a 48/3000.

Net cost is factoring in resale. It doesn't exist for steelies, it does for carbon fiber. It's all clearly explained in English in my previous posts.

You have your view of budget and I have mine. I believe you are giving poor advice considering paintball is an amazing game that people generally like to stick with, and therefore initial purchases actually are almost inconsequential compared to the continual expenses of field fees, paint, gas, food, and whatnot. Again that's also explained in the post. I can run the math for you if you'd like to show you just how small of an expense it is proportionally, and yet it makes a significant and noticeable difference on the field.

Again the biggest waste of money and most non-budget thing to do is to replace gear with "upgrades." That's why I'll never advise anyone buying something that they'll want to change later. I will always advise them to hit that critical point of performance.

edit: You want someone to skimp on a mask, really?

Someone is spending hundreds of dollars on a setup, and therefore hundreds of dollars on regular expenses like field fees, gas, paint, etc, and you recommend they save $35 to skimp on their mask? The single most important item they own?

Edited by Lotus, 03 May 2012 - 03:10 PM.

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#23 Empire91

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Posted 03 May 2012 - 04:10 PM

Having 50% more air is 50% more shots. If you do the math, a 68/4500 carbon fiber tank actually holds over twice as much air and therefore twice as much shots as a 48/3000 tank. It's math. The only reason I said slightly over 50% was because I was comparing a 50/4500 to a 48/3000.

Net cost is factoring in resale. It doesn't exist for steelies, it does for carbon fiber. It's all clearly explained in English in my previous posts.

You have your view of budget and I have mine. I believe you are giving poor advice considering paintball is an amazing game that people generally like to stick with, and therefore initial purchases actually are almost inconsequential compared to the continual expenses of field fees, paint, gas, food, and whatnot. Again that's also explained in the post. I can run the math for you if you'd like to show you just how small of an expense it is proportionally, and yet it makes a significant and noticeable difference on the field.

Again the biggest waste of money and most non-budget thing to do is to replace gear with "upgrades." That's why I'll never advise anyone buying something that they'll want to change later. I will always advise them to hit that critical point of performance.

edit: You want someone to skimp on a mask, really?

Someone is spending hundreds of dollars on a setup, and therefore hundreds of dollars on regular expenses like field fees, gas, paint, etc, and you recommend they save $35 to skimp on their mask? The single most important item they own?


You're comparing two extremely different tanks. I don't see the logic in comparing a 48 ci tank to a 68 ci tank. Of course you'll get more shots off the 68. You'd get more shots off a 68/4500 even when comparing it to 48/4500. And you're not doubling the pressure, you're increasing it by a third. Unless 3,000 X 2 now equals 4500.

If people stick with the sport like you suggest later, then why would net cost factor in at all then? If they're budget ballers, chances are they're not whoring around gear. So if they keep playing with a tank, and keep getting it hydro tested, they shouldn't have a problem with trying to sell it because they will never need to. After you play with a steely for a couple of games, the weight doesn't even come into effect. You're not going to pick up a CF tank after playing with an aluminium one and increase your skill so much as to say, "wow, I really need a Carbon tank now."

Increasing your initial investment only decreases the amount of money you are able to spend on playing the game itself. So if you spend an extra I don't know, 300 dollars, well then that's 6 maybe seven cases of paint you could have bought, but instead, you went for minimal performance increases. Paintball is fun, but it's not fun when you have all that fancy new gear but no money to actually go out and play.

So when they get their 200 dollar Extcy, they're not going to want to change it shortly down the road? Like say, put the Blackheart board in it?

Where did I say skimp on a mask? Unless you are in some way insinuating that the ProVantage is a shitty mask? First question is, have you ever used one? Because if you haven't, then how are you even qualified to comment on it? Second thing is, the ProVantage offers the same benefits from any of the other masks out there. There's a quick change lens system, it comes with a visor, thermal lenses are available. (It doesn't come with them, but neither do the Profilers) It doesn't fog, and it provides plenty of protection for even people with big faces without being too bulky. Why spend the extra 35 dollars when you have a mask that is just as capable.




#24 NPpballer

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Posted 03 May 2012 - 06:45 PM

I mean, if you want HPA and you can't afford Carbon Fiber, they work just as well. They're just a little heavier.


Because exactly that, they're a cheap gateway into a real CF tank. Then you either have a $60 tank laying around or you sell it for $20.

I saw some crazy shit at the field last weekend. We always split up beginners and regulars so they don't get over shot. Well a lot of the kids with entry level electros wanted to go with the beginner group because theyve only played once or twice in their life.

I liked that you emphasized on the will to keep playing. Paintball's a huge investment, and it's not worth it for just a year or two of play.

#25 Lotus

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Posted 03 May 2012 - 08:24 PM

Empire, I honestly think you're missing the forest for the trees. I believe you're describing people who I would place in my second category: people I would tell to just rent and not even buy their own setup. In which case I would advise them not to spend their money and instead save it to play. Again my belief is that if you can't afford what I consider the minimum critical point, you should rent. I had thought you would understand that.

With regards to the mask, that's the one thing I recommend a splurge on. It's your mask. The single most important piece of equipment you own. Adequate isn't good enough in my opinion. A VForce ProVantage is fine for someone in my first categry (the sub $150 or doesn't know if they want to stick with it), but I wouldn't recommend that mask for someone who is going to stick with paintball for a very long time. Again, skimping on a mask is not something I ever condone, unless you're in group #1. And yes, the VForce ProVantage is not the best mask. It's skimping. Hell even the manufacturer acknowledges that.

The GoG G1 is there because it's only a net extra cost of $15 when you get the blackheart board down the road, and you end up with a marker basically equivalent to the extcy. If that's the difference between renting and not, well at that point using it just once pays for itself and with zero downside. The same cannot be said for the examples you are giving out.

All of this is easily spelled out in the original post. The setup you describe is functional, yes. An Azodin Blitz with an Invert Halo TOO, VForce ProVantage, and 48/3000 tank isn't actually something I would mind using on the field. I'd be glad to, but only for specific situations. However this is for budget ballers. At that level I'd rather just save money and rent until I could reach my critical point. If you don't stick with it, then you wasted money. If you do, every paintball player I've met with a setup like that is always talking about what they want to "upgrade" and that's definitely not budget friendly. Again, this is all in the original post.

Also, with regards to tank capacity, do math. 4500 divided by 3000 is 1.5, not 1.33. 4500 is 50% more than 3000. Also I am well aware that comparing a 68 to a 48 may not be strictly fair, which is why in my original example I compared it to a 50/4500. Even so, I still believe it to be valid as those are the typical sizes. Most people buying steel tanks get 48/3000, and most people buying carbon fiber tanks get 68/4500.

I don't like repeating myself, especially when all of these responses can be predicted by simply reading my original post.

Edited by Lotus, 03 May 2012 - 08:28 PM.

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#26 Empire91

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Posted 03 May 2012 - 08:28 PM

As you said, you don't like repeating yourself, and neither do I. We're gonna keep spinning our wheels here sir. So I will respectfully bow out. I don't admit defeat though :)

Also, that's my bad on the math. I'm on pain pills from a root canal, but I shouldn't be that dumb.

Edited by Empire91, 03 May 2012 - 08:34 PM.


#27 Lotus

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Posted 04 May 2012 - 10:18 AM

Props man. I feel like I just lost...

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