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#1 piranha

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Posted 24 June 2012 - 10:54 PM

I was watching mythbusters and their topic was testing if a dimpled golf ball would go farther than a smooth one. They proved that the dimpling ball went astronimicallt farther because the drag was reduced by the dimples.

WOULD THIS WORK WITH PAINTBALLLS!!!!!!????? just wondering

The Dimples

Why, then, does a golf ball have dimples? The answer to this question can be found by looking at the aerodynamic drag on a sphere. There are two types of drag experienced by a sphere. The first is the obvious drag due to friction. This only accounts for a small part of the drag experienced by a ball. The majority of the drag comes from the separation of the flow behind the ball and is known as pressure drag due to separation. For laminar flow past a sphere, the flow separates very early as shown in Figure 1. However, for a turbulent flow, separation is delayed as can be seen in Figure 2. Notice the difference in the size of the separation region behind the spheres. The separation region in the turbulent case is much smaller than in the laminar case. The larger separation region of the laminar case implies a larger pressure drag on the sphere. This is why the professor experienced a longer drive with the marked ball. The surface roughness caused the flow to transition from laminar to turbulent. The turbulent flow has more energy than the laminar flow and thus, the flow stays attached longer.


Figure 1: Laminar Flow
Over a Sphere. http://wings.avkids....ges/golf_01.gif <-----link to laminar flow pic

Figure 2: Turbulent Flow
Over a Sphere. http://wings.avkids....ges/golf_02.gif <----link to turbulent flow pic


So, why dimples? Why not use another method to achieve the same affect? The critical Reynolds number, Recr, holds the answer to this question. As you recall, Recr is the Reynolds number at which the flow transitions from a laminar to a turbulent state. For a smooth sphere, Recr is much larger than the average Reynolds number experienced by a golf ball. For a sand roughened golf ball, the reduction in drag at Recr is greater than that of the dimpled golf ball. However, as the Reyn olds number continues to increase, the drag increases. The dimpled ball, on the other hand, has a lower Recr, and the drag is fairly constant for Reynolds numbers greater than Recr.

Therefore, the dimples cause Recr to decrease which implies that the flow becomes turbulent at a lower velocity than on a smooth sphere. This in turn causes the flow to remain attached longer on a dimpled golf ball which implies a reduction in drag. As the speed of the dimpled golf ball is increased, the drag doesn't change much. This is a good property in a sport like golf.

Although round dimples were accepted as the standard, a variety of other shapes were experimented with as well. Among these were squares, rectangles, and hexagons. The hexagons actually result in a lower drag than the round dimples. Perhaps in the future we will see golf balls with hexagonal dimples.

#2 andrewthewookie

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Posted 24 June 2012 - 11:00 PM

It's been tried with the Rap4 golf balls, but they perform like shit. We assume that's because of the way they were manufactured, where the depth of the holes are different across the ball.

http://www.techpb.co...showtopic=75403

http://www.techpb.co...showtopic=77606

Edited by andrewthewookie, 11 July 2012 - 12:14 AM.

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#3 NotaSniper

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Posted 24 June 2012 - 11:31 PM

There's also the boundary layer effect.

#4 invictus

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Posted 03 July 2012 - 06:30 PM

even if they did work, they would cost much more, because they would be much more difficult to make.

#5 THE EXTREMIST

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Posted 11 July 2012 - 12:05 AM

I think that is a good consept but the dimples in the ball might allow air to escape when there being pushed out of the marker

#6 TK-421

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Posted 11 July 2012 - 12:18 AM

I think that is a good consept but the dimples in the ball might allow air to escape when there being pushed out of the marker


That already happens in an overbore situation, doesn't mean anything bad.

#7 cockerpunk

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Posted 11 July 2012 - 02:30 PM

There's also the boundary layer effect.


bundry layer effects is how dimples work
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#8 Filmer_jake

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Posted 11 July 2012 - 11:40 PM

I feel like for it to work, the shell would have to be a lot thicker than it is to allow the dimples to actually happen. Thus making it too thick to be safe?

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#9 THE EXTREMIST

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Posted 12 July 2012 - 01:55 AM

would it make the paintball a little bit lighter and so there will not be as much momentum to keep the ball moving through the air .But on the other hand the dimples in the ball reduce drag causing it to go farther. So it might work or it might not.

#10 TK-421

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Posted 12 July 2012 - 03:08 AM

would it make the paintball a little bit lighter and so there will not be as much momentum to keep the ball moving through the air .But on the other hand the dimples in the ball reduce drag causing it to go farther. So it might work or it might not.


That really depends on what material you make the paintball out of, because you can't make it out of gelatin, the way paintballs are made now, the dimples wouldn't stay when the paintball shrinks as it dries. It's entirely possible that the paintball will end up being heavier than a regular paintball, depending on what you make it out of.

#11 Woodyballer29

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Posted 12 July 2012 - 08:31 AM

I think even if we did somehow get a paintball dimpled like a golf ball the accuracy would be worse than a non-dimpled paintball. Does a golf ball compress and change shape when it gets hit by a club? Correct me if I'm wrong but I don't think it does. But a paintball on the other hand does compress and change shape. If the ball was dimpled the dimples will either, not stay because of compression, or the ball will change shape and cause the dimples to be ineffective because the shape of the ball is perfectly round. I don't think accurate dimpled paintballs are humanely possible.

Edited by Woodyballer29, 12 July 2012 - 08:31 AM.

.I never know what to put in these things.


#12 Troy

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Posted 12 July 2012 - 10:00 AM

I think even if we did somehow get a paintball dimpled like a golf ball the accuracy would be worse than a non-dimpled paintball. Does a golf ball compress and change shape when it gets hit by a club? Correct me if I'm wrong but I don't think it does. But a paintball on the other hand does compress and change shape. If the ball was dimpled the dimples will either, not stay because of compression, or the ball will change shape and cause the dimples to be ineffective because the shape of the ball is perfectly round. I don't think accurate dimpled paintballs are humanely possible.


A golf ball, absolutely, changes shape when hit by a club. That's one of the reasons they bounce so much.
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#13 Woodyballer29

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Posted 12 July 2012 - 10:32 AM

A golf ball, absolutely, changes shape when hit by a club. That's one of the reasons they bounce so much.


It does but look how quickly it retains it's shape. I can't seem to find any on paintballs but I bet they compress way more than golf balls.

.I never know what to put in these things.


#14 Egomaniacal

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Posted 12 July 2012 - 12:18 PM


A golf ball, absolutely, changes shape when hit by a club. That's one of the reasons they bounce so much.


It does but look how quickly it retains it's shape. http://www.youtube.c...h?v=2Y57pw_iWlk I can't seem to find any on paintballs but I bet they compress way more than golf balls.


I doubt it. With a golf club you're acting on nearly a point, with a single plane. With a paintball the force is being applied relatively uniformly across nearly a hemisphere of the ball, in a direction normal to the surface of the ball.

I would be surprised if there was much deformation at all.
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#15 andrewthewookie

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Posted 12 July 2012 - 01:54 PM

Paintballs barely change shape when shot.

http://youtu.be/WXM6MpEsalA?t=4m48s

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#16 Troy

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Posted 12 July 2012 - 04:14 PM



A golf ball, absolutely, changes shape when hit by a club. That's one of the reasons they bounce so much.


It does but look how quickly it retains it's shape. http://www.youtube.c...h?v=2Y57pw_iWlk I can't seem to find any on paintballs but I bet they compress way more than golf balls.


I doubt it. With a golf club you're acting on nearly a point, with a single plane. With a paintball the force is being applied relatively uniformly across nearly a hemisphere of the ball, in a direction normal to the surface of the ball.

I would be surprised if there was much deformation at all.


Even if they do deform, what would fly better, an oblong more aerodynamic object, or an oblong less aerodynamic object....? hmmmm....
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#17 Woodyballer29

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Posted 15 July 2012 - 12:34 PM

Paintballs barely change shape when shot.

http://youtu.be/WXM6MpEsalA?t=4m48s


I can see that the paintball doesn't change shape very much at all but the only reason why is that the barrel is "grabbing" the ball so that it remains round.

.I never know what to put in these things.


#18 Woodyballer29

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Posted 15 July 2012 - 12:36 PM

Even if they do deform, what would fly better, an oblong more aerodynamic object, or an oblong less aerodynamic object....? hmmmm....


I don't know, I'm no scientist or anything close but I just go off of what makes sense not everything in this world makes sense but it is true. Perhaps a dimpled paintball would fly extremely straight and have improved range but at the average Joe's standpoint. Who would want to buy paint that is dimpled everywhere when I have a case at home that has fewer dimples and shoots like crap?

.I never know what to put in these things.


#19 andrewthewookie

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Posted 15 July 2012 - 02:04 PM

I can see that the paintball doesn't change shape very much at all but the only reason why is that the barrel is "grabbing" the ball so that it remains round.

Can you show us where you saw that paintballs deform in the first place, or is all this coming from your assumptions?

Edited by andrewthewookie, 15 July 2012 - 02:05 PM.

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#20 Woodyballer29

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Posted 15 July 2012 - 02:21 PM


I can see that the paintball doesn't change shape very much at all but the only reason why is that the barrel is "grabbing" the ball so that it remains round.

Can you show us where you saw that paintballs deform in the first place, or is all this coming from your assumptions?


No I cannot I have tried but I can't find anything. So I guess you could say it is my assumption. But I think it's more common sense. If a gelatin capsule is flying at 280 fps wouldn't that air have an effect on it?

.I never know what to put in these things.


#21 andrewthewookie

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Posted 15 July 2012 - 02:48 PM

No I cannot I have tried but I can't find anything. So I guess you could say it is my assumption. But I think it's more common sense. If a gelatin capsule is flying at 280 fps wouldn't that air have an effect on it?

I think you're making the first false assumption about the "gelatin." Just because there is a gelatin component does not mean it'll shoot like jello. Also, what sort of effect are we talking about? The air is pushing (mostly) equally around the whole of the back hemisphere, so if it is deforming as you claim, what does the deformation look like? Is this deformation caused by the bolt? If it is the bolt, is it only when the bolt strikes the paintball, or does it happen every time, even when the paintball is resting on the bolt face and is pushed forwards, rather than hit?

To go back and address the barrel "grabbing," I'm assuming you mean the paintball wants to widen, but the barrel is preventing that. Wouldn't that make a pseudo-underbore, where the whole of the barrel is blocked off by the paintball? What then would account for the loss of FPS when going from an underbore to an overbore? Would this deformation only happen right at the initial power pulse, or would it happen through the whole acceleration period?


A quick blurb on common sense: "common sense" changes with knowledge. There was a time when it was common sense that the world was flat, and that the sun revolved around the earth. It was common sense that sickness was caused by imbalances of the humors and bloodletting was the cure-all. These are old examples, and somewhat drastic, but my point is that common sense is only as good as our knowledge of something.

Edited by andrewthewookie, 15 July 2012 - 03:24 PM.

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#22 Woodyballer29

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Posted 15 July 2012 - 03:43 PM


No I cannot I have tried but I can't find anything. So I guess you could say it is my assumption. But I think it's more common sense. If a gelatin capsule is flying at 280 fps wouldn't that air have an effect on it?

I think you're making the first false assumption about the "gelatin." Just because there is a gelatin component does not mean it'll shoot like jello. Also, what sort of effect are we talking about? The air is pushing (mostly) equally around the whole of the back hemisphere, so if it is deforming as you claim, what does the deformation look like? Is this deformation caused by the bolt? If it is the bolt, is it only when the bolt strikes the paintball, or does it happen every time, even when the paintball is resting on the bolt face and is pushed forwards, rather than hit?

To go back and address the barrel "grabbing," I'm assuming you mean the paintball wants to widen, but the barrel is preventing that. Wouldn't that make a pseudo-underbore, where the whole of the barrel is blocked off by the paintball? What then would account for the loss of FPS when going from an underbore to an overbore? Would this deformation only happen right at the initial power pulse, or would it happen through the whole acceleration period?


A quick blurb on common sense: "common sense" changes with knowledge. There was a time when it was common sense that the world was flat, and that the sun revolved around the earth. It was common sense that sickness was caused by imbalances of the humors and bloodletting was the cure-all. These are old examples, and somewhat drastic, but my point is that common sense is only as good as our knowledge of something.


True, common sense is only based on our knowledge of something. Idk. I just think that if a capsule that is gelatin "it won't shoot like jello I know that" is traveling at 280 fps then even the tiniest bit of deformation has to happen. And when punkworks tested the Tribal Stix barrel what happened to the paintball? It was all over the place because a little bit of honing issues and overspray caused it to have a different motion (I'm presuming so since it was terrible accuracy) which made the paintball not shoot straight.

.I never know what to put in these things.


#23 andrewthewookie

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Posted 15 July 2012 - 03:47 PM

I never claimed there was no deformation, just that there was no visible deformation. And it's not the final FPS that it's traveling that's important, it's the rate of acceleration and how the force is applied to the paintball to give it that acceleration. As for the Tribal barrel, that was from over-spray in the barrel causing lots of random spin. Unrelated to the shot causing any deformation.

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#24 Woodyballer29

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Posted 15 July 2012 - 03:59 PM

I never claimed there was no deformation, just that there was no visible deformation. And it's not the final FPS that it's traveling that's important, it's the rate of acceleration and how the force is applied to the paintball to give it that acceleration. As for the Tribal barrel, that was from over-spray in the barrel causing lots of random spin. Unrelated to the shot causing any deformation.


Sorry for misquoting you I just thought I would throw in my 2 cents worth. It just seems to ME that there should be some deformation and that deformation would make the ball oblong which in turn would reduce accuracy if the ball was dimpled. I was giving an example with the tribal Stix barrel. It did not cause deformation to happen but it did cause a different motion to take place which reduced accuracy.

Edited by Woodyballer29, 15 July 2012 - 03:59 PM.

.I never know what to put in these things.


#25 Troy

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Posted 15 July 2012 - 04:06 PM

I never claimed there was no deformation, just that there was no visible deformation. And it's not the final FPS that it's traveling that's important, it's the rate of acceleration and how the force is applied to the paintball to give it that acceleration. As for the Tribal barrel, that was from over-spray in the barrel causing lots of random spin. Unrelated to the shot causing any deformation.


In my latest test I, actually, proved that there was a significant positive correlation between ball deformation and accuracy. There is likely to be some sort of sweet spot where a little bit of deformation increases accuracy.

Besides, if there is deformation of a non dimpled paintball, it's likely that you will see the same kind of deformation on a non dimpled paintball. So, the question becomes, not how a slightly deformed paintball in air will work (because two similar paintballs will be deformed in the same way), but how does a paintball that is more aerodynamic fly through the air (assuming we can get past the dimple on the shell margin problem)..

Edited by Troy, 15 July 2012 - 04:10 PM.

\m/

#26 Woodyballer29

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Posted 15 July 2012 - 04:07 PM


I never claimed there was no deformation, just that there was no visible deformation. And it's not the final FPS that it's traveling that's important, it's the rate of acceleration and how the force is applied to the paintball to give it that acceleration. As for the Tribal barrel, that was from over-spray in the barrel causing lots of random spin. Unrelated to the shot causing any deformation.


In my latest test I, actually, proved that there was a significant positive correlation between ball deformation and accuracy. There is likely to be some sort of sweet spot where a little bit of deformation increases accuracy.


Cool.

.I never know what to put in these things.


#27 NotaSniper

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Posted 22 July 2012 - 11:12 PM


There's also the boundary layer effect.


bundry layer effects is how dimples work



Yes I know. But most people never mention it. They always talk about "turbulent flow" instead.

#28 ShadowZero

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Posted 23 July 2012 - 01:22 PM

correct me if I'm wrong, but wouldn't the paintball have to be perfectly round in shape like a golf ball for any dimples to have any affect on drag? This would make an underbore (that makes the ball go oblong to accomodate the smaller bore) make it somewhat useless? or do you think the ball would expand and have the dimples do the same thing as a normal overbore?

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#29 Egomaniacal

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Posted 23 July 2012 - 01:47 PM

In my latest test I, actually, proved that there was a significant positive correlation between ball deformation and accuracy. There is likely to be some sort of sweet spot where a little bit of deformation increases accuracy.

Besides, if there is deformation of a non dimpled paintball, it's likely that you will see the same kind of deformation on a non dimpled paintball. So, the question becomes, not how a slightly deformed paintball in air will work (because two similar paintballs will be deformed in the same way), but how does a paintball that is more aerodynamic fly through the air (assuming we can get past the dimple on the shell margin problem)..


I would love to know how you measured this.
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#30 Troy

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Posted 23 July 2012 - 04:36 PM


In my latest test I, actually, proved that there was a significant positive correlation between ball deformation and accuracy. There is likely to be some sort of sweet spot where a little bit of deformation increases accuracy.

Besides, if there is deformation of a non dimpled paintball, it's likely that you will see the same kind of deformation on a non dimpled paintball. So, the question becomes, not how a slightly deformed paintball in air will work (because two similar paintballs will be deformed in the same way), but how does a paintball that is more aerodynamic fly through the air (assuming we can get past the dimple on the shell margin problem)..


I would love to know how you measured this.


You remember that thread... you posted in it. Slide number 7 has the anova we ran on the data.
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#31 FapPB

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Posted 04 November 2012 - 04:50 AM

I think a point is being missed here. (might have missed a post or two) But a golf ball never ever flies straight. The dimples help with the spin of a ball, there is a type of callawaya that have several deeper dimples for more spin and such. In golf you play your draw / fade (curve of your ball in flight). And I doubt this woukd be beneficial for paintball. Good thought though. 

#32 Jaccen

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Posted 04 November 2012 - 06:40 PM



In my latest test I, actually, proved that there was a significant positive correlation between ball deformation and accuracy. There is likely to be some sort of sweet spot where a little bit of deformation increases accuracy.

Besides, if there is deformation of a non dimpled paintball, it's likely that you will see the same kind of deformation on a non dimpled paintball. So, the question becomes, not how a slightly deformed paintball in air will work (because two similar paintballs will be deformed in the same way), but how does a paintball that is more aerodynamic fly through the air (assuming we can get past the dimple on the shell margin problem)..


I would love to know how you measured this.


You remember that thread... you posted in it. Slide number 7 has the anova we ran on the data.


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#33 gamefreak054

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Posted 04 November 2012 - 11:00 PM

I think a point is being missed here. (might have missed a post or two) But a golf ball never ever flies straight. The dimples help with the spin of a ball, there is a type of callawaya that have several deeper dimples for more spin and such. In golf you play your draw / fade (curve of your ball in flight). And I doubt this woukd be beneficial for paintball. Good thought though. 


I hate to respond in a necro'd thread but you are wrong, golf balls are dimpled to increase distance, though you could probably adjust dimples to exaggerate things properties. Here is what I found on another site explaining the physics behind golf balls.

Simplistic form-
http://www.scientifi...ples-in-golf-ba

Phyiscs form-
http://math.ucr.edu/...neral/golf.html

Basically the dimples help create lift. Even though dimples do add a small bit of extra drag it is still beneficial to have dimples.




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