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#1 unfated33

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Posted 20 July 2012 - 10:05 AM

As part of my job at work, I am responsible for tracking a lot of companies that my business works with. Using a couple of special tools and a couple of somewhat-conniving tricks, we are able to learn a lot about how our customers and competitors businesses are working. I decided on a slow day that I might take a look at some of the major paintball manufacturers to see what I could find out and whether there might be any interesting details. Turns out there was less info than I was expecting, but still a couple of interesting nuggets that I thought might be worth sharing.

In general, and not surprisingly, 2011 was a pretty bad year for paintball companies. However, it seems like almost to a one they all picked up from January 2012 through July. I'm not sure what to make of this because my window into history is so limited - is it because things slowed in the fall on a normal cycle, is it the abnormally warm weather of 2012, or something else? Hard to say with just a single snapshot.

One other not-so-surprising thing is that not a single paintball company is publishing their financials right now. However, it looks like at least Dye Precision was regularly publishing accountant-certified financial statements from 2003 to 2008. Most of the other companies did not have histories that went back that far because they have recently reincorporated in the last few years. In fact, a LOT of companies had reincorporated in 2011 or 2012. I think that further points to the poor cycle going on in 2011. Another thing before I get into the details is that the information I dig into is by definition trailing the current market. It depends on the paintball companies partners, suppliers, and whatever these companies are willing to self-report. This can lead to some inaccuracy, but when I bring up questionable results I'll qualify them with why my sources indicated the results that they did. Last point is that I did pull info for GOG, Planet Eclipse, and MacDev - however, all of these companies report a headquarters that is international and therefore I didn't get the full picture of what's going on with these businesses. The snapshot for those three, well - two really, will only be for any publically listed domestic operations.

On to the results! I listed the companies by measurable size in the United States.

1. Kee Action Sports
Kee is clearly the king of the hill, reporting 385 full-time employees and a $1,000,000 conservative credit limit. Kee has had the same management control, under George Eurick, for the past six years since incorporation. Interestingly, Kee is comparatively weak to other major players using my aggregate company scoring system (though just slightly), and displayed a much higher financial stress impact than most of the other companies as well. That's not unusual for a big player in a weakened market, and I'll qualify that by saying - in my own business experience - larger companies with better cash flow are more likely to be able to withstand a slowing market than their otherwise more agile competitors. Kee had a relatively average credit score of 448. My system expects that Kee has only about a 0.84% chance of going out of business in 2012 - that's about typical for the major manufacturers so I won't mention the rest explicitly.

2. Tippman
The rest of the pack will start to come together after that giant, with Tippman the next largest financial company with a $200,000 credit limit. In comparison, this business "only" maintains 100 full-time employees in labor. Tippman is owned by Howard Kosick, Lori Sherwood, and Dennis Tippman. They have maintained present management control of the business for 26 years. Tippman had a fairly high credit score of 483, but has a couple of notable risks to future business. The first problem is two separate liens against the business for state tax by the State of Indiana - filed in 2010 and have now been resolved, though one shows updated data just recently on 7/05/2012. The lien amounts in total were concerning but not considerable (about 20k in total between the two). The other problem for Tippman in 2009 was a lawsuit brought for product liability in the state of Pennsylvania. As of today, the case resolution is still listed as pending. I haven't dug for more details, but it is docket number 200900020071 in Allegheny County if you want to investigate for yourself.

3. Kingman
Kingman is a large debtor but has a small employee headcount, making the company appear larger than it may really be. They employ 25 heads and have a $100,000 conservative credit limit. Kingman appears in strong financial position with a high system score, a high credit score, and a good financial stress score. Kingman is tied with Bob Long for my rating of most secure companies, though they show a downward trend in performance over the past six months. Kingman was the victim of a toxic tort case in 2009 with judgement entered in July 2010. I didn't investigate it too much (if you want, it's San Francisco case CGCU09485693) because Toxic Tort is such an unusual case to bring against a paintball company. Kingman had a 545 credit score, and is owned by Arthur Chang.

4. Dye Precision, Inc.
Dye Precision employs slightly more people, 110, than Tippman, but has a lower credit limit of $95,000. Dye has been owned by David "Youngblood" Dehaan and Rhonda Dehaan for 18 years (17 for Rhonda). As said above, they have reported good financial strength between 2003 and 2008. From what I can tell, 2004 was probably the best year in that period based on my system ratings. Dye has had a significant number of credit checks by outside business since 2004 (31 total) - this is more a sign of healthy business transactions than anything else, but at that number it could also be an indicator of credit risk for overextension. This is already factored into their financial stress score and credit score of 486. Dye maintains at least one subsidiary in Europe.

5. Valken
Valken is the last of the major domestic players (though I'm going to mention the other smaller players in a second). Valken is somewhat weak on an overall system rating (just one point above Kee), but across the board all of Valken's financial metrics have been trending forward over the past 6 months. Valken has a conservative credit limit of $35,000 and employs 25 people. Valken is owned by Eugenio "Gino" Postorivo and he has maintained control since 2007. Valken has a current credit score of 422. In general, aside from the weak system score I thought this looked like one of the best companies in the group that I reviewed. I would expect continued growth based on the historical performance (though I temper that with the go-to financial advisor line I picked up in business school: "past performance is not a clear indicator of future performance.").

6. GOG Paintball
I'm going to take a brief second to talk about GOG, though there isn't much to say. All of their financial information is tied to an international location in Costa Rica which means I can't get access to it without spending more money than I'd be interested in spending. I will say that credit agencies still see the U.S. domestic location in Loyalhanna, PA as being out of business. That has not been updated since 2010, however. I did a phone investigation and it appears there are no other companies tied to GOG USA's published main phone number, though their fax number has belonged to a cleaning agency since 2010.

7. Smaller companies (Azodin, Bob Long, MacDev USA, Planet Eclipse USA, Dangerous Power)
There's not a lot of info on these smaller companies and company branches so these will each be one liners in a second. In general they all were measured as stable with a credit limit of $500 to $1,000.
Azodin - Only company to incorporate as an LLC. Gino, Arthur - you're small enough for an s-corp or LLC! Follow Azodin's example and get tax-free transfer to your shareholders. Interestingly, Azodin only reports present management since 2011, and reports their previous location as a completely separate business. Azodin does not list a current manager - nor do any of the rest of the small companies.
Bob Long - Had high system score marks tied with Kingman. Reports present management control for just the past 3 years.
MacDev USA - The USA operations seem to be small, with a somewhat weaker financial stress ability than the rest. Headquarters are in Australia.
Planet Eclipse USA - Reports 3 employees in the US, but headquarters and finances run from the United Kingdom.
Dangerous Power - The very weakest of the small companies. In addition, their phone number and address is shared with AMAZONE, Inc (implies same ownership). AMAZONE and Dangerous Power both had poor financial stress and credit scores. AMAZONE is also rated a D- by the BBB for unresolved customer complaints over a small pool of customer experiences.

8. The rest
I looked for credit info, well - any info really - for Unity Paintball, Thin Air Sports, and Machine, but I couldn't dig anything up. If you know a phone number or an address and are interested in finding out more like I was, just PM it to me.


My final remarks are to again say, with the exception of GOG and Dangerous Power I would say the grouping of 95% of these investigations was very similar. I don't know that I'd necessarily use this information to make a purchase decision (unless you are greatly concerned about toxic tort, maybe), but it might give you a peek into the window of how the paintball manufacturing business is going. If I can remember to come back to it, I set all of these files aside to keep giving me updates over time. I think it'd be interesting to come back to it in a year or 18 months to see what's changed.

EDIT:
9. Alien Paintball
This is a very interesting report to look at. Alien has just 2 employees but a conservative credit limit of $20,000. Alien is owned by Jack Rice and he has had present control of the company for five years. They have a fairly high system score, and it's been consistently higher in the past two quarters than the previous four quarters. This is likely due to taking and paying on a short term business credit loan. It would appear Alien has positioned themselves for growth in 2012, and with the strong paintball market in 2012 it appears to be a good bet to have made. Alien has a credit score of 457.

Edited by Unfated33, 20 July 2012 - 06:59 PM.

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#2 ChrisO17

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Posted 20 July 2012 - 11:19 AM

Great read, good to know info :tup:

#3 zchrit23

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Posted 20 July 2012 - 11:26 AM

What are you listing as the chances of DP going under?

#4 Jarz

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Posted 20 July 2012 - 11:30 AM

Cool! I'm not much of a business guy, but from going regularly to my pro-shop, KEE did not anticipate this huge surge of business in the first half of 2012, and product flow was slowing to a trickle on items (markers, tanks, etc.)
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#5 HU Soldier

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Posted 20 July 2012 - 12:06 PM

good job man, its nice to know something about the companies besides their products, interesting read

#6 spqr-king

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Posted 20 July 2012 - 12:29 PM

What are you listing as the chances of DP going under?


Not gonna say I told you so Posted Image

Very interesting report. I am surprised that PE is so small here considering the US should consist of a majority of their sales? Not surprised about the rest.

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#7 unfated33

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Posted 20 July 2012 - 12:41 PM

What are you listing as the chances of DP going under?

Ach, with the small companies it's a tough call, and I'm not sure I can put a fine percent on it.

Here's what I can say: The credit filing shows Dangerous Power incorporating in 2012. This either means they reincorporated or somehow DP, their suppliers, or customers gave an inaccurate credit update. If they did reincoporate, it could be (much emphasis on COULD BE) a sign of bad deals or bad debt that the company wanted to get away from. Third item would be a possible total change in ownership of assets. Any of these possibilities just short of "someone made a mistake" is a very bad sign for a small company. However, I'll say again that I would believe someone made a mistake is the most likely cause of this file.

DP has no credit experiences on file at all. This means they are doing cash-only transactions with businesses that are also not reporting their transactions with DP. Who are they buying their raw materials from? Who's doing the milling? How are they buying electronics? From a financial investigation perspective, it is a mild negative that all transactions are occurring under the table.

Lastly, this issue with AMAZONE, Inc. is the wild card. Does the owner of both companies use one to subsidize the other? Was AMAZONE a prior incorporation that is now being reserved or phased out? AMAZONE only has six credit experiences since 2009, four of those in reported cash transactions.

Only other data piece I have here I missed from before. AMAZONE's president for the same phone number and address as Dangerous Power is Yi-Chuan Liu. Management was just reported to the California state secretary on July 6, 2012.
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#8 Panda Man

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Posted 20 July 2012 - 12:42 PM

Hmmm,,, to me, I'd be putting my money on Dye right now for some sort of merger with a larger company or them buying out another smaller company right now, if that many investors are poking and prodding at them then something might happen in the next few years for them.

Could you imagine if Dye bought Angels Patents... ;) It would make since for dye since Angel is/was big in the European scene.

Edited by Panda Man, 20 July 2012 - 12:47 PM.


#9 spqr-king

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Posted 20 July 2012 - 12:50 PM


What are you listing as the chances of DP going under?

Ach, with the small companies it's a tough call, and I'm not sure I can put a fine percent on it.

Here's what I can say: The credit filing shows Dangerous Power incorporating in 2012. This either means they reincorporated or somehow DP, their suppliers, or customers gave an inaccurate credit update. If they did reincoporate, it could be (much emphasis on COULD BE) a sign of bad deals or bad debt that the company wanted to get away from. Third item would be a possible total change in ownership of assets. Any of these possibilities just short of "someone made a mistake" is a very bad sign for a small company. However, I'll say again that I would believe someone made a mistake is the most likely cause of this file.

DP has no credit experiences on file at all. This means they are doing cash-only transactions with businesses that are also not reporting their transactions with DP. Who are they buying their raw materials from? Who's doing the milling? How are they buying electronics? From a financial investigation perspective, it is a mild negative that all transactions are occurring under the table.

Lastly, this issue with AMAZONE, Inc. is the wild card. Does the owner of both companies use one to subsidize the other? Was AMAZONE a prior incorporation that is now being reserved or phased out? AMAZONE only has six credit experiences since 2009, four of those in reported cash transactions.

Only other data piece I have here I missed from before. AMAZONE's president for the same phone number and address as Dangerous Power is Yi-Chuan Liu. Management was just reported to the California state secretary on July 6, 2012.


Im not surprised you forgot to mention your previous statement that they have had a bad quality wrap per purchase I believe is how you put it? Which is no surprise to most... That will ruin a company.

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#10 unfated33

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Posted 20 July 2012 - 01:07 PM



What are you listing as the chances of DP going under?

Ach, with the small companies it's a tough call, and I'm not sure I can put a fine percent on it.

Here's what I can say: The credit filing shows Dangerous Power incorporating in 2012. This either means they reincorporated or somehow DP, their suppliers, or customers gave an inaccurate credit update. If they did reincoporate, it could be (much emphasis on COULD BE) a sign of bad deals or bad debt that the company wanted to get away from. Third item would be a possible total change in ownership of assets. Any of these possibilities just short of "someone made a mistake" is a very bad sign for a small company. However, I'll say again that I would believe someone made a mistake is the most likely cause of this file.

DP has no credit experiences on file at all. This means they are doing cash-only transactions with businesses that are also not reporting their transactions with DP. Who are they buying their raw materials from? Who's doing the milling? How are they buying electronics? From a financial investigation perspective, it is a mild negative that all transactions are occurring under the table.

Lastly, this issue with AMAZONE, Inc. is the wild card. Does the owner of both companies use one to subsidize the other? Was AMAZONE a prior incorporation that is now being reserved or phased out? AMAZONE only has six credit experiences since 2009, four of those in reported cash transactions.

Only other data piece I have here I missed from before. AMAZONE's president for the same phone number and address as Dangerous Power is Yi-Chuan Liu. Management was just reported to the California state secretary on July 6, 2012.


Im not surprised you forgot to mention your previous statement that they have had a bad quality wrap per purchase I believe is how you put it? Which is no surprise to most... That will ruin a company.

That was for AMAZONE, Inc. Yeah, a very bad sign that they have unresolved customer complaints for a small number of total customer experiences. I just don't know enough about AMAZONE's business to say how much that could leak over into Dangerous Power.
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#11 unfated33

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Posted 20 July 2012 - 01:15 PM

Hmmm,,, to me, I'd be putting my money on Dye right now for some sort of merger with a larger company or them buying out another smaller company right now, if that many investors are poking and prodding at them then something might happen in the next few years for them.

Could you imagine if Dye bought Angels Patents... ;) It would make since for dye since Angel is/was big in the European scene.

No guarantees, but it seems like the best target, especially for a smaller company making a hostile takeover. Great name and reputation, falling sales numbers over the course of the decade, flagging credit. I see internal consolidation more likely than outside investor though, based on all of what I saw over the past two days.
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#12 SON1C

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Posted 20 July 2012 - 01:49 PM

thanks for putting all of this together, information is always great

#13 Dak-Attack

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Posted 20 July 2012 - 02:16 PM

Toxic Tort? Did someone try to grind up a gun and snort it only to find lead? I know Kingmans manufacturing is overseas (China, so there is a great chance that the gun has high lead in it.)

Of course, it is California. No offense, but soon you guy will be required to wear charcoal filtered underwear because the methane your asses give off will be considered "cancerous". No wait, the underwear itself would be found to be toxic and the bill would have to go back and be repealed. Then some group will form a petition banning the use of the underwear and form a group on Facebook that links you to their kickstarter page to help the cause. The group founder will then start his own kickstarter page to "pay him back" for all the "time" and "effort" he put into creating a facebook page and kickstarter page for free. Afterwards, nudists will find the underwear "oppressive" and go marching through the streets. And not the good kind of nudists. The kind of nudists that if you've seen naked you would be repulsed by the human body.

But I have to say, you guys have some of the best weather. And I'm jealous. No wonder you want to ban all the icky-stuffs :P

A question to the OP: Isn't releasing this information a little risky on your part?


#14 spqr-king

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Posted 20 July 2012 - 02:37 PM

Why would DYE want to acquire Angels remaining patents? DYE makes everything angel has to offer and does it better... I dont think theirs anything Angel has that DYE would want...

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#15 Jarz

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Posted 20 July 2012 - 02:37 PM

A question to the OP: Isn't releasing this information a little risky on your part?

I think that most of this information is technically available to the public, as most companies' financials are, but I could be wrong.
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#16 obft

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Posted 20 July 2012 - 02:40 PM

Toxic Tort? Did someone try to grind up a gun and snort it only to find lead? I know Kingmans manufacturing is overseas (China, so there is a great chance that the gun has high lead in it.)

Of course, it is California. No offense, but soon you guy will be required to wear charcoal filtered underwear because the methane your asses give off will be considered "cancerous". No wait, the underwear itself would be found to be toxic and the bill would have to go back and be repealed. Then some group will form a petition banning the use of the underwear and form a group on Facebook that links you to their kickstarter page to help the cause. The group founder will then start his own kickstarter page to "pay him back" for all the "time" and "effort" he put into creating a facebook page and kickstarter page for free. Afterwards, nudists will find the underwear "oppressive" and go marching through the streets. And not the good kind of nudists. The kind of nudists that if you've seen naked you would be repulsed by the human body.

But I have to say, you guys have some of the best weather. And I'm jealous. No wonder you want to ban all the icky-stuffs :P


California weather is all hype, bro. Our summers are more oppressing heat than pleasant, with a disturbing lack of girls in bikinis running around on the beach. I personally wish it was colder and rained more often. I'm also waiting for someone to "discover" that earthquakes(or something equally stupid) can cause cancer. But that's just me. :P

To the OP: Were you able to find out anything about Alien, Vanguard, or Angel(before they went out of business)?

#17 cockerpunk

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Posted 20 July 2012 - 02:58 PM

great thread, very very very interesting.
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#18 unfated33

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Posted 20 July 2012 - 03:09 PM

I forgot one:

9. Alien Paintball
This is a very interesting report to look at. Alien has just 2 employees but a conservative credit limit of $20,000. Alien is owned by Jack Rice and he has had present control of the company for five years. They have a fairly high system score, and it's been consistently higher in the past two quarters than the previous four quarters. This is likely due to taking and paying on a short term business credit loan. It would appear Alien has positioned themselves for growth in 2012, and with the strong paintball market in 2012 it appears to be a good bet to have made. Alien has a credit score of 457.
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#19 zchrit23

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Posted 20 July 2012 - 03:18 PM




What are you listing as the chances of DP going under?

Ach, with the small companies it's a tough call, and I'm not sure I can put a fine percent on it.

Here's what I can say: The credit filing shows Dangerous Power incorporating in 2012. This either means they reincorporated or somehow DP, their suppliers, or customers gave an inaccurate credit update. If they did reincoporate, it could be (much emphasis on COULD BE) a sign of bad deals or bad debt that the company wanted to get away from. Third item would be a possible total change in ownership of assets. Any of these possibilities just short of "someone made a mistake" is a very bad sign for a small company. However, I'll say again that I would believe someone made a mistake is the most likely cause of this file.

DP has no credit experiences on file at all. This means they are doing cash-only transactions with businesses that are also not reporting their transactions with DP. Who are they buying their raw materials from? Who's doing the milling? How are they buying electronics? From a financial investigation perspective, it is a mild negative that all transactions are occurring under the table.

Lastly, this issue with AMAZONE, Inc. is the wild card. Does the owner of both companies use one to subsidize the other? Was AMAZONE a prior incorporation that is now being reserved or phased out? AMAZONE only has six credit experiences since 2009, four of those in reported cash transactions.

Only other data piece I have here I missed from before. AMAZONE's president for the same phone number and address as Dangerous Power is Yi-Chuan Liu. Management was just reported to the California state secretary on July 6, 2012.


Im not surprised you forgot to mention your previous statement that they have had a bad quality wrap per purchase I believe is how you put it? Which is no surprise to most... That will ruin a company.

That was for AMAZONE, Inc. Yeah, a very bad sign that they have unresolved customer complaints for a small number of total customer experiences. I just don't know enough about AMAZONE's business to say how much that could leak over into Dangerous Power.


Thanks for the information. Does it list when DP had a management change, I know something like that was going on a few years ago, but maybe that's still happening and the company is being rebuilt (yes, i'm hopeful spqr). Glad you posted all the information you did. Maybe I can shed a little light on the customer service part as I've never had a problem getting a hold of anyone at DP, and have nothing but good things to say about them. Then I've also never heard of AMAZONE inc. till today. Maybe I'm one of the few?

#20 unfated33

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Posted 20 July 2012 - 03:29 PM


Toxic Tort? Did someone try to grind up a gun and snort it only to find lead? I know Kingmans manufacturing is overseas (China, so there is a great chance that the gun has high lead in it.)

Of course, it is California. No offense, but soon you guy will be required to wear charcoal filtered underwear because the methane your asses give off will be considered "cancerous". No wait, the underwear itself would be found to be toxic and the bill would have to go back and be repealed. Then some group will form a petition banning the use of the underwear and form a group on Facebook that links you to their kickstarter page to help the cause. The group founder will then start his own kickstarter page to "pay him back" for all the "time" and "effort" he put into creating a facebook page and kickstarter page for free. Afterwards, nudists will find the underwear "oppressive" and go marching through the streets. And not the good kind of nudists. The kind of nudists that if you've seen naked you would be repulsed by the human body.

But I have to say, you guys have some of the best weather. And I'm jealous. No wonder you want to ban all the icky-stuffs :P


California weather is all hype, bro. Our summers are more oppressing heat than pleasant, with a disturbing lack of girls in bikinis running around on the beach. I personally wish it was colder and rained more often. I'm also waiting for someone to "discover" that earthquakes(or something equally stupid) can cause cancer. But that's just me. :P

To the OP: Were you able to find out anything about Alien, Vanguard, or Angel(before they went out of business)?

Unfortunately, I can't find anything on businesses that have closed other than the last state of affairs at closure - not as useful. Vanguard is a maybe - right now they're in flux with the ownership change and any investigations are going to be mixed because of that.
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#21 spqr-king

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Posted 20 July 2012 - 03:41 PM





What are you listing as the chances of DP going under?

Ach, with the small companies it's a tough call, and I'm not sure I can put a fine percent on it.

Here's what I can say: The credit filing shows Dangerous Power incorporating in 2012. This either means they reincorporated or somehow DP, their suppliers, or customers gave an inaccurate credit update. If they did reincoporate, it could be (much emphasis on COULD BE) a sign of bad deals or bad debt that the company wanted to get away from. Third item would be a possible total change in ownership of assets. Any of these possibilities just short of "someone made a mistake" is a very bad sign for a small company. However, I'll say again that I would believe someone made a mistake is the most likely cause of this file.

DP has no credit experiences on file at all. This means they are doing cash-only transactions with businesses that are also not reporting their transactions with DP. Who are they buying their raw materials from? Who's doing the milling? How are they buying electronics? From a financial investigation perspective, it is a mild negative that all transactions are occurring under the table.

Lastly, this issue with AMAZONE, Inc. is the wild card. Does the owner of both companies use one to subsidize the other? Was AMAZONE a prior incorporation that is now being reserved or phased out? AMAZONE only has six credit experiences since 2009, four of those in reported cash transactions.

Only other data piece I have here I missed from before. AMAZONE's president for the same phone number and address as Dangerous Power is Yi-Chuan Liu. Management was just reported to the California state secretary on July 6, 2012.


Im not surprised you forgot to mention your previous statement that they have had a bad quality wrap per purchase I believe is how you put it? Which is no surprise to most... That will ruin a company.

That was for AMAZONE, Inc. Yeah, a very bad sign that they have unresolved customer complaints for a small number of total customer experiences. I just don't know enough about AMAZONE's business to say how much that could leak over into Dangerous Power.


Thanks for the information. Does it list when DP had a management change, I know something like that was going on a few years ago, but maybe that's still happening and the company is being rebuilt (yes, i'm hopeful spqr). Glad you posted all the information you did. Maybe I can shed a little light on the customer service part as I've never had a problem getting a hold of anyone at DP, and have nothing but good things to say about them. Then I've also never heard of AMAZONE inc. till today. Maybe I'm one of the few?


Im hopeful also man if DP would get its head out of its butt and turn itself around thats great my hate comes and goes with the quality of the company. I don't hold on to grudges if they change it up and make better products but they haven't done that yet or even tried to for that matter...

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#22 zchrit23

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Posted 20 July 2012 - 03:55 PM

Too many quotes..SO:

Ya, I understand, but also believe that their markers are great shooters, there are a few that are bad out of box, but all of the problems are such easy fixes that it's not really a big deal. Again, i've never had a nightmare marker from DP, so ya, I'm a little biased, but then, anyone who had problems I was either able to fix it for them or get them started on the right path to fixing it. Plus, when you have 68k shots through a marker, with out any problem that required it to be teched by a professional, I'd say that's pretty fucking realiable (Love my FX)

#23 unfated33

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Posted 20 July 2012 - 06:08 PM

As a point of clarification, yes - the system I use basically just aggregates a lot of publically available information, but it also uses some of that public information to make educated guesses about the state of the company based on company size, trade experience, similar companies in the same industry, similar size companies in the same industry, credit checks, lawsuits, etc.

In addition, it occurred to me that I didn't clarify the credit scores for companies. A business credit score uses a different scale than credit scores for you and me. The business range is 101 (highest risk) to 670 (lowest risk). A higher score is better, with anything over about 400 being okay and anything over 550 being good. Pretty much all of the companies fell into the "okay" spectrum.
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#24 madsnipes

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Posted 20 July 2012 - 06:42 PM

interesting thread

#25 Panda Man

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Posted 20 July 2012 - 11:00 PM

Why would DYE want to acquire Angels remaining patents? DYE makes everything angel has to offer and does it better... I dont think theirs anything Angel has that DYE would want...


More Technology = More options.

#26 sancho000

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Posted 21 July 2012 - 01:02 AM

Read the whole thing very interesting!



#27 LikeACheeseStick

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Posted 21 July 2012 - 02:18 AM

This is a cool write up.

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#28 Rival

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Posted 21 July 2012 - 12:58 PM

I'm guessing PE maintain a skeleton operation over here due to their manufacturing and finances operating overseas. Still, considering my house back home is within a few miles of their headquarters, I'd be interested to see how they're faring financially and whether or not their stats are comparable in any way with the other 'big guns'.

Great read though.
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#29 spqr-king

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Posted 21 July 2012 - 01:08 PM


Why would DYE want to acquire Angels remaining patents? DYE makes everything angel has to offer and does it better... I dont think theirs anything Angel has that DYE would want...


More Technology = More options.


Yes but I dont see anything Angel has that DYE would need? I would assume most of their patents have already been sold off or they are holding on to them...

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#30 Panda Man

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Posted 21 July 2012 - 01:26 PM



Why would DYE want to acquire Angels remaining patents? DYE makes everything angel has to offer and does it better... I dont think theirs anything Angel has that DYE would want...


More Technology = More options.


Yes but I dont see anything Angel has that DYE would need? I would assume most of their patents have already been sold off or they are holding on to them...


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#31 L_x

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Posted 23 July 2012 - 02:14 AM

Unfortunately, I can't find anything on businesses that have closed other than the last state of affairs at closure - not as useful. Vanguard is a maybe - right now they're in flux with the ownership change and any investigations are going to be mixed because of that.


You probably won't find anything on Vanguard Paintball Ltd, as they're being liquidated at the moment. The new company is called Vanguard USA.

(Due to this change of name they have managed to completely wipe all debt they owed, including a lot they owed to me.)

Thanks for posting all this up, while from what I can tell some of it is out of date, it is still very interesting.

Edited by L_x, 23 July 2012 - 02:14 AM.

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#32 TechPB-Mike

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Posted 23 July 2012 - 10:45 AM

wow, GREAT write up and analysis

#33 unfated33

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Posted 23 July 2012 - 03:36 PM


Unfortunately, I can't find anything on businesses that have closed other than the last state of affairs at closure - not as useful. Vanguard is a maybe - right now they're in flux with the ownership change and any investigations are going to be mixed because of that.


You probably won't find anything on Vanguard Paintball Ltd, as they're being liquidated at the moment. The new company is called Vanguard USA.

(Due to this change of name they have managed to completely wipe all debt they owed, including a lot they owed to me.)

Thanks for posting all this up, while from what I can tell some of it is out of date, it is still very interesting.

I think what I bolded might be going on a lot with many of the smaller size companies. It's the most logical explanation for why some of them are reporting only being in business for 1 year or so. I kind of figured that would happen with Vanguard after the news that they were purchased and relocated, but I hadn't been able to get actual confirmation of that happening until now. The good news is it keeps a paintball company in business and keeps their markers on the market. The bad news is it hurts all of their creditors and impacts future investment opportunities. I doubt you'd be as willing to have Vanguard indebted to you in the future, right?

Edited by Unfated33, 23 July 2012 - 03:36 PM.

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#34 Kikkia

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Posted 23 July 2012 - 06:37 PM

Really good write up.
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#35 dertydood

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Posted 23 July 2012 - 10:26 PM

And I thought I wasted time at work...Posted Image

Good information though
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#36 L_x

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Posted 24 July 2012 - 04:39 AM



Unfortunately, I can't find anything on businesses that have closed other than the last state of affairs at closure - not as useful. Vanguard is a maybe - right now they're in flux with the ownership change and any investigations are going to be mixed because of that.


You probably won't find anything on Vanguard Paintball Ltd, as they're being liquidated at the moment. The new company is called Vanguard USA.

(Due to this change of name they have managed to completely wipe all debt they owed, including a lot they owed to me.)

Thanks for posting all this up, while from what I can tell some of it is out of date, it is still very interesting.

I think what I bolded might be going on a lot with many of the smaller size companies. It's the most logical explanation for why some of them are reporting only being in business for 1 year or so. I kind of figured that would happen with Vanguard after the news that they were purchased and relocated, but I hadn't been able to get actual confirmation of that happening until now. The good news is it keeps a paintball company in business and keeps their markers on the market. The bad news is it hurts all of their creditors and impacts future investment opportunities. I doubt you'd be as willing to have Vanguard indebted to you in the future, right?

Correct, the majority of companies in paintball are operating ethically and sensibly, and I would much rather support these and help them grow rather than let companies know it's ok to run a business like Vanguard Paintball Ltd have.

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#37 drg

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Posted 24 July 2012 - 05:21 AM

This is an excellent piece of journalism, conceptually basic perhaps but a completely uncovered story, well-researched and presented, and it's really a shame there is no venue for you to get paid for efforts like this.
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#38 mph295

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Posted 02 August 2012 - 11:48 PM

I hope DP gets bought buy someone else, AMAZON always has these problems.

#39 Panda Man

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Posted 04 August 2012 - 10:20 PM

I hope DP get's out of this Slump, as in business its adapt or die, but i really hope they can turn their misfortune into fortune... I wish we could go back to the early 2000's where there were tons of gun companies, dozens of different options to choose from. Buuuuutttt... it's all about your product.




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