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#101 andrewthewookie

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Posted 31 July 2012 - 10:55 PM

> Only two pods

Two extra pods can be huge, and if the GT is as smooth but more efficient, it's a no-brainier.

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#102 speedballer001

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Posted 31 July 2012 - 10:57 PM

Have you considered the luxe. It will blow away the geo and the dm. Trust me i shot all 4. It will not blow away the gt in smoothness but it is slightly smoother. Yes the gt is more efficient but only by like 2 pods. You definatley should consider the luxe. IMO it is THE top of the line spool

Only thing really wrong with a luxe is soooo many orings... I dont mind maintain but when you have 20 orings and you have a leak, you have to find the broken one

#103 bigx

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Posted 31 July 2012 - 11:00 PM

Shot a few luxes wasent impressed I think they are fugly and for some reason I just irrationality hate them. Like they shoot nice but I cant get over the lack of an oled and the fact that they are so dam UGLY!!!

Like the Bugatti Veyron like its a sick car I just think its fugly and dont like it at all.

Edited by bigx, 31 July 2012 - 11:29 PM.

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#104 LUXOR54

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Posted 31 July 2012 - 11:01 PM

Like the Bugatti Veyron like its a sick car I just think its fugly and dont like it at all.


finally someone agrees with me! IMO the veyron looks like a really fat audi r8, am i right?!

Edited by LUXOR54, 31 July 2012 - 11:02 PM.

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#105 Keeghan98

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Posted 31 July 2012 - 11:02 PM


Have you considered the luxe. It will blow away the geo and the dm. Trust me i shot all 4. It will not blow away the gt in smoothness but it is slightly smoother. Yes the gt is more efficient but only by like 2 pods. You definatley should consider the luxe. IMO it is THE top of the line spool

Only thing really wrong with a luxe is soooo many orings... I dont mind maintain but when you have 20 orings and you have a leak, you have to find the broken one

It only has 14 and the clone gt has just as many. + or - 1 or 2 o rings

#106 speedballer001

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Posted 31 July 2012 - 11:03 PM

I have never liked Buggati I do like lambo's though :wub:



Have you considered the luxe. It will blow away the geo and the dm. Trust me i shot all 4. It will not blow away the gt in smoothness but it is slightly smoother. Yes the gt is more efficient but only by like 2 pods. You definatley should consider the luxe. IMO it is THE top of the line spool

Only thing really wrong with a luxe is soooo many orings... I dont mind maintain but when you have 20 orings and you have a leak, you have to find the broken one

It only has 14 and the clone gt has just as many. + or - 1 or 2 o rings

I never said it didn't. If I were to go for a spool it would be a Vanguard Demon or possibly a DM but I do like poppits

#107 bigx

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Posted 31 July 2012 - 11:09 PM


Like the Bugatti Veyron like its a sick car I just think its fugly and dont like it at all.


finally someone agrees with me! IMO the veyron looks like a really fat audi r8, am i right?!


I think it looks like a Volkswagen bug got stepped on and squishified.

As for maintance I have an Etek 3 if anything goes wrong with the Clone or Geo I cant fix nothing short of complete and total nuclear war will stop my etek.

Edited by bigx, 31 July 2012 - 11:09 PM.

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#108 spisla

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Posted 31 July 2012 - 11:18 PM

I'm with spisla on this one. Lol.

:wub: thanks :P
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#109 Demon

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Posted 31 July 2012 - 11:19 PM

wow this is a popular thread, anywhodeedoodle, i just hope to provide a bit of advice if i can for you, the private label geo 3's will take quite a bit to come out and only a few colors will come out at first, i have been talking to DSS and PE about them for a while and they are still trying to keep up with demand on the normal geo 3's. i have shot all of the highend spools and worked with all the major compannies,

i found dye to have the most god awful CS i have ever worked with besides bob long lately, now i love bob's stuff i really do, but i have been waiting for a new asa for over a year. anywho, when my i4 got totally wrecked by some bad paint that actually ate at the plastic and glue i couldn't get a responce neither could DSS for over 3 months. only when i started a shit storm on their facebook did i get a responce and then it took another couple of months and they didn't send the foam, then another couple of months and i got the foam.

planet eclipse has had the best CS out of anyone hands down bar none, when i do have a problem with a PE marker i can get a replacement before the next weekend every time, as long as there are parts in the U.S. and usually it is either free or i just have to cover shipping etc. PE will ALWAYS have your back no matter what.

my buddy tried to work with macdev for over six months for a part for his regulator and he had to pay full price the experience was excruciating and i have heard alot of other horror stories, and the fact that the rep admits that people say this is not a good thing to say the least and i wouldn't want to go on "an adventure" with over a grand.

overall in my experience the geo 3 luxe and GT are the main spoolies right now, though you really should hear what some of those orange boys from canada have to say about their demons, they have a pretty good bang for your buck appeal.

the flow restrictor on the geo 3 makes a massive difference and working with vicious and my brothers geo 3 i can tell you they get EASILY 9 pods and if you drop your dwell i am sure you could get more, but they shoot soo nice at stock settings with the flow restrictor on smoothest, why mess with it?

the luxe is pretty nice but you have already stated your hatred so i won't go there.

the dm's are quite finicky moreso than other spoolies in my area and i have found myself working on them more often than anything else. overall i wouldn't rate the DM12 very high on my list of guns.

the GT has been getting some really really nice reviews and the only downside i could see with it would be the somewhat sketchy CS and the fact that is is kind of squareish looking. but they shoot nice and yes they do boast about the best efficiency from spoolies with about 11 pods on average. though with the geo 3 being soo new it is hard to say but from what i have personally seen i would put them about on par with efficiency if you have them set for that.

i hope this may help your decision and i would be happy to discuss this further with you.

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#110 bigx

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Posted 31 July 2012 - 11:28 PM

wow this is a popular thread, anywhodeedoodle, i just hope to provide a bit of advice if i can for you, the private label geo 3's will take quite a bit to come out and only a few colors will come out at first, i have been talking to DSS and PE about them for a while and they are still trying to keep up with demand on the normal geo 3's. i have shot all of the highend spools and worked with all the major compannies,

i found dye to have the most god awful CS i have ever worked with besides bob long lately, now i love bob's stuff i really do, but i have been waiting for a new asa for over a year. anywho, when my i4 got totally wrecked by some bad paint that actually ate at the plastic and glue i couldn't get a responce neither could DSS for over 3 months. only when i started a shit storm on their facebook did i get a responce and then it took another couple of months and they didn't send the foam, then another couple of months and i got the foam.

planet eclipse has had the best CS out of anyone hands down bar none, when i do have a problem with a PE marker i can get a replacement before the next weekend every time, as long as there are parts in the U.S. and usually it is either free or i just have to cover shipping etc. PE will ALWAYS have your back no matter what.

my buddy tried to work with macdev for over six months for a part for his regulator and he had to pay full price the experience was excruciating and i have heard alot of other horror stories, and the fact that the rep admits that people say this is not a good thing to say the least and i wouldn't want to go on "an adventure" with over a grand.

overall in my experience the geo 3 luxe and GT are the main spoolies right now, though you really should hear what some of those orange boys from canada have to say about their demons, they have a pretty good bang for your buck appeal.

the flow restrictor on the geo 3 makes a massive difference and working with vicious and my brothers geo 3 i can tell you they get EASILY 9 pods and if you drop your dwell i am sure you could get more, but they shoot soo nice at stock settings with the flow restrictor on smoothest, why mess with it?

the luxe is pretty nice but you have already stated your hatred so i won't go there.

the dm's are quite finicky moreso than other spoolies in my area and i have found myself working on them more often than anything else. overall i wouldn't rate the DM12 very high on my list of guns.

the GT has been getting some really really nice reviews and the only downside i could see with it would be the somewhat sketchy CS and the fact that is is kind of squareish looking. but they shoot nice and yes they do boast about the best efficiency from spoolies with about 11 pods on average. though with the geo 3 being soo new it is hard to say but from what i have personally seen i would put them about on par with efficiency if you have them set for that.

i hope this may help your decision and i would be happy to discuss this further with you.


Thank you SIR!!! and as I think I made it clear earlier I am heavily in favor on the GEO3 partly because from the experience I had with the marker and partly because of PE's customer service. I might be sending a few PMs your way.

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#111 speedballer001

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Posted 31 July 2012 - 11:29 PM

Big, I seriously recommend you contact someone from citrus connection and learn about the Vanguard Demon.

#112 bigx

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Posted 31 July 2012 - 11:34 PM

Big, I seriously recommend you contact someone from citrus connection and learn about the Vanguard Demon.


Thought about it, and im not overly interested. I hear horror stories about them leaking and im not a fan of the rechargable batteries.

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#113 speedballer001

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Posted 31 July 2012 - 11:37 PM


Big, I seriously recommend you contact someone from citrus connection and learn about the Vanguard Demon.


Thought about it, and im not overly interested. I hear horror stories about them leaking and im not a fan of the rechargable batteries.

I talked to Eskimo (one of citrus connection) He said they are fixing basically everything with the newer version.... So you could wait and figure out which I recommend! You dont want to buy a gun then have one come out that is better.... its a waste of money

#114 bigx

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Posted 31 July 2012 - 11:40 PM



Big, I seriously recommend you contact someone from citrus connection and learn about the Vanguard Demon.


Thought about it, and im not overly interested. I hear horror stories about them leaking and im not a fan of the rechargable batteries.

I talked to Eskimo (one of citrus connection) He said they are fixing basically everything with the newer version.... So you could wait and figure out which I recommend! You dont want to buy a gun then have one come out that is better.... its a waste of money


Im still waiting on an impending sale before I purchase a marker so I have plenty of time to decide what I want

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#115 madsnipes

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Posted 01 August 2012 - 12:10 AM

i know this is really random but i would wait for the Zealot to be released. it looks really promising

Edited by madsnipes, 01 August 2012 - 12:10 AM.


#116 paintballfreak907

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Posted 01 August 2012 - 12:58 AM


PE really went all out on their reply!

I don't expect a response from Dye anytime soon tho...



Thats why I love PE <3 this sales rep better do one helluva job answering the rest of my questions the PE guy and myself went back and forth for about half an hour after the initial response.

And why do you say that about Dye? Its pretty disappointing they have such an important position in the community they should be all over this email.

I emailed dye about a 2 week old lense cracking in feburary and they didnt reply until june...

#117 Taylor519

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Posted 01 August 2012 - 01:09 AM

CITRUS CONNECTION IS HERE

If you have not gotten a chance to shoot a demon i feel very bad for you. Sadly i haven't shot a luxe/GT but i have shot a Geo 2.1 and DM12. The demon kills them both in efficiency and smoothness. Vanguard will be shipping demons in leather cases in the future and much more is soon to come. Vanguard is currently working on 2 piece cans and the future looks very bright for vanguard. Now that Frank Connell has taken over Vanguard they are starting to move into the US very fast and the support forums on PBN have multiple technicians to help you with anything you need. Vanguard has technicians located all over the US ready to help you out and have parts to get you onto the field sooner than from the UK. This doesn't affect you but Vanguard is trying to get techs into Canada to help out with any issues and avoid shipping over the boarder. My demon shoots absolutely beautiful and i shot 2 cases of paint at LL5 and only have to fill up 4 times and left the field with 3k air in my tank. The demon also comes with .693 Barrel similar to PE but also a .689 barrel for smaller paint. the Vanguard lithium ion batteries are awesome and you should never run out of battery at the field.

#118 Woodyballer29

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Posted 01 August 2012 - 08:31 AM

the flow restrictor on the geo 3 makes a massive difference and working with vicious and my brothers geo 3 i can tell you they get EASILY 9 pods and if you drop your dwell i am sure you could get more, but they shoot soo nice at stock settings with the flow restrictor on smoothest, why mess with it?


Well the efficiency tests don't show that they can get 9 pods. The most they got was 8.8 pods. Maybe if it was filled to the max 4500 psi but even then it would have to be a hot fill then let it cool then fill it again which would take about 20 minutes.

Edit: The one efficiency test with Ryan showed only 8.7 pods with it filled up to 4500 psi and shooting around 280 290's I believe.

Edited by Woodyballer29, 01 August 2012 - 08:40 AM.

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#119 bigx

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Posted 01 August 2012 - 09:58 AM

CITRUS CONNECTION IS HERE

If you have not gotten a chance to shoot a demon i feel very bad for you. Sadly i haven't shot a luxe/GT but i have shot a Geo 2.1 and DM12. The demon kills them both in efficiency and smoothness. Vanguard will be shipping demons in leather cases in the future and much more is soon to come. Vanguard is currently working on 2 piece cans and the future looks very bright for vanguard. Now that Frank Connell has taken over Vanguard they are starting to move into the US very fast and the support forums on PBN have multiple technicians to help you with anything you need. Vanguard has technicians located all over the US ready to help you out and have parts to get you onto the field sooner than from the UK. This doesn't affect you but Vanguard is trying to get techs into Canada to help out with any issues and avoid shipping over the boarder. My demon shoots absolutely beautiful and i shot 2 cases of paint at LL5 and only have to fill up 4 times and left the field with 3k air in my tank. The demon also comes with .693 Barrel similar to PE but also a .689 barrel for smaller paint. the Vanguard lithium ion batteries are awesome and you should never run out of battery at the field.


What is so special about it and are the horror stories about them leaking like a ship full of holes true?

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#120 Schuppert3

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Posted 01 August 2012 - 11:24 AM

Yeah those storys are true. I like Frank and all but i would hold off a year on buying a demon. Im sure he can pick it off the ground and i hope he does but vanguard fucked a lot of people and you cant just ignore that. It will take time and a lot of improving from Frank and vanguard. Frank said it himself.

Your acquisition has gotten a lot of attention out on the paintball internet, and some people have even come out of the woodwork saying that since you own Vanguard now, you owe them money. What’s your response?


Frank-

My response is, I purchased the assets of Vanguard. In doing so, I’m not liable for any outstanding debt that the company might or might not have. The company made plenty of bad business decisions in the past and the result was that they weren’t able to get themselves out of the hole they dug themselves into. My apologies go out to any person or company that might have been owed money by the previous owner of Vanguard, but I can promise you that with me running things, everyone will receive what’s due to them from this point forward.


http://www.pblife.co...of-vanguard-usa

Im sorry and i understand what Frank is saying but if you got fucked by vanguard you got fucked end of story. Who knows that could happen again. I would hold off until he proves it can be a reputable company.

yea I kept seeing banner ads for asianbeaver.com until I cleared my cache

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#121 bigx

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Posted 01 August 2012 - 11:39 AM

PE +1

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#122 poliuy

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Posted 01 August 2012 - 12:03 PM

Yeah those storys are true. I like Frank and all but i would hold off a year on buying a demon. Im sure he can pick it off the ground and i hope he does but vanguard fucked a lot of people and you cant just ignore that. It will take time and a lot of improving from Frank and vanguard. Frank said it himself.

Your acquisition has gotten a lot of attention out on the paintball internet, and some people have even come out of the woodwork saying that since you own Vanguard now, you owe them money. What’s your response?


Frank-

My response is, I purchased the assets of Vanguard. In doing so, I’m not liable for any outstanding debt that the company might or might not have. The company made plenty of bad business decisions in the past and the result was that they weren’t able to get themselves out of the hole they dug themselves into. My apologies go out to any person or company that might have been owed money by the previous owner of Vanguard, but I can promise you that with me running things, everyone will receive what’s due to them from this point forward.


http://www.pblife.co...of-vanguard-usa

Im sorry and i understand what Frank is saying but if you got fucked by vanguard you got fucked end of story. Who knows that could happen again. I would hold off until he proves it can be a reputable company.


Are you kidding me? Of COURSE he acquired their debt when he bought the company, that's how it works! When you buy a company you are buying all of their manufacturing, marketing, and products. However, you also are buying any and all debt that company has accrued (unless they filed for chapter 11, and still they have to work out a deal with creditors).

It's terrible that he has somehow justified to himself that it is legal and ethical to wash his hands of the whole ordeal. I'm sorry Frankie boy, that's just not how it works.

#123 trigg3r happy

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Posted 01 August 2012 - 12:31 PM

Well one of the problems with the demon is that they use the solenoid from the creed instead of the one it was designed for.

Personally I wouldn't buy a gun from a company that screwed off 850,000 in debt. However, if you do want one I would talk to l_x I believe they tried paying him in demons lol and ask if he would use the correct solenoid.

#124 bigx

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Posted 01 August 2012 - 12:54 PM

I want to deal with a company I know will NOT screw me over. Im making a $1,500 Investment here I want to make dam sure my money is safe.

So far PE is the winner.

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#125 Taylor519

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Posted 01 August 2012 - 01:10 PM

Frank knows what's wrong with demons. His team has shot them all season and he knows what needs to be fixed. That being said if you are going to buy a demon you will want to wait a year as they have so many new parts coming out. Sadly I am unable to talk about a majority of things coming besides the 2 piece can which will inprove the way the marker functions greatly. I know these new ideas coming from vanguard would help sell the gun to a lot of people.

#126 trigg3r happy

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Posted 01 August 2012 - 01:11 PM

Personally any of your suggestions were good, which is why I threw a negative light on vanguard.

Pe is a solid choice.

#127 unfated33

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Posted 01 August 2012 - 01:51 PM


Yeah those storys are true. I like Frank and all but i would hold off a year on buying a demon. Im sure he can pick it off the ground and i hope he does but vanguard fucked a lot of people and you cant just ignore that. It will take time and a lot of improving from Frank and vanguard. Frank said it himself.

Your acquisition has gotten a lot of attention out on the paintball internet, and some people have even come out of the woodwork saying that since you own Vanguard now, you owe them money. What’s your response?


Frank-

My response is, I purchased the assets of Vanguard. In doing so, I’m not liable for any outstanding debt that the company might or might not have. The company made plenty of bad business decisions in the past and the result was that they weren’t able to get themselves out of the hole they dug themselves into. My apologies go out to any person or company that might have been owed money by the previous owner of Vanguard, but I can promise you that with me running things, everyone will receive what’s due to them from this point forward.


http://www.pblife.co...of-vanguard-usa

Im sorry and i understand what Frank is saying but if you got fucked by vanguard you got fucked end of story. Who knows that could happen again. I would hold off until he proves it can be a reputable company.


Are you kidding me? Of COURSE he acquired their debt when he bought the company, that's how it works! When you buy a company you are buying all of their manufacturing, marketing, and products. However, you also are buying any and all debt that company has accrued (unless they filed for chapter 11, and still they have to work out a deal with creditors).

It's terrible that he has somehow justified to himself that it is legal and ethical to wash his hands of the whole ordeal. I'm sorry Frankie boy, that's just not how it works.

Erm, he didn't buy Vanguard. He created an independent company, Vanguard USA, and then purchased the assets of Vanguard. That statement implies that Vanguard either already was in bankruptcy prior to sale or that it will soon be in bankruptcy following the divesting of its assets. Since he didn't purchase the existing company, he was not saddled with the debts.

So I guess the following question is whether we should be mad at the previous owners of Vanguard or mad at Frank. That all depends on how the backroom dealings went down, but it was a good business decision for Frank to purchase the assets alone. Would it be great if Frank made right what other people did wrong? Absolutely. But unless Frank was somehow part of the business decisions at the time that got Vanguard so far into debt in the first place, laying all of the responsibility on his shoulders would be misguided.
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#128 trigg3r happy

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Posted 01 August 2012 - 04:08 PM

If the original company did not pay the designer for their patents then it is not their asset to sell.

#129 unfated33

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Posted 01 August 2012 - 06:52 PM

If the original company did not pay the designer for their patents then it is not their asset to sell.

In theory you could be right, but it depends on how the contract was written and what agreements were made in place between the designer and Vanguard, LTD. Intellectual property can be and likely was transferred as part of the transition from design into manufacture.

The one creditor I know of is Alex Hodge, and look - I really, really want Alex to be financially compensated for his great designs. I like his stuff a lot. However, that doesn't necessarily mean that Frank Connell is the bad guy for buying up Vanguard's assets. Of course, that doesn't mean he's the good guy, either. It just means that prime culpability should fall on those that made deals that they did not uphold their obligations on. Unless Frank was aware of and possibly complicit in the decision to sell off assets and default on debts, I'm not sure how he could be held responsible. In the best case scenario, Vanguard went bankrupt and just prior to or during liquidation the assets were purchased by Frank. The revenue from sale of assets would be used to pay off Vanguard's prime creditors. The worst case scenarios are kind of hard to easily explain without risking libel, but largely revolve around the idea of sheltering income and not paying creditors.

The bottom line is that if a designer or other parties believe that income was hidden or improperly paid to other creditors, there is a legal process in the window of time during and after the bankruptcy announcement to dispute the bankruptcy. I will self-admit I do not know how the process works for international or British law, but I do know it exists.
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#130 poliuy

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Posted 01 August 2012 - 07:46 PM

rm, he didn't buy Vanguard. He created an independent company, Vanguard USA, and then purchased the assets of Vanguard. That statement implies that Vanguard either already was in bankruptcy prior to sale or that it will soon be in bankruptcy following the divesting of its assets. Since he didn't purchase the existing company, he was not saddled with the debts.

So I guess the following question is whether we should be mad at the previous owners of Vanguard or mad at Frank. That all depends on how the backroom dealings went down, but it was a good business decision for Frank to purchase the assets alone. Would it be great if Frank made right what other people did wrong? Absolutely. But unless Frank was somehow part of the business decisions at the time that got Vanguard so far into debt in the first place, laying all of the responsibility on his shoulders would be misguided.


Frank didn't just purchase some assets, he bought the whole company name and all.

" I bought all the assets of Vanguard, LTD. Do you want me to read off the list? I bought all the parts that the company had to make Vanguard markers, I bought the rights to the name, I own the trademarks and all intellectual property, the design rights, all websites and domains. Why did I buy it? I bought it because I saw value in the company and I saw the potential that their products have. I want to bring that product to customers. I want to take Vanguard to the next level, baby! Look to big things in the future for Vanguard. We’ll start with a Pro-series bolt for the Demon, with a spring, that should come out this week – it’s not a stock option or a warranty replacement, this is a genuine upgraded bolt system that will be in the pro-series Avalanche guns, but Demon owners can purchase them as a factory upgrade for their stock markers. I’ve been testing this bolt in my personal gun for the last two months, and I’ve played five tournaments in the past two months, and my marker has performed FLAWLESSLY."


In the case before a New York trial court MBIA Insurance Corp. v. Countrywide Home Loans, the court found that BOFA had assumed a de facto merger because it fit the following:

• continuity of ownership;

• cessation of ordinary business and dissolution of the acquired corporation as soon as possible;

• assumption by the successor of liabilities ordinarily necessary for the uninterrupted continuation of the business of the acquired corporation

• continuity of management, personnel, physical location, assets, and general business operation. http://www.lexology....2d-66bfee245e9d

Because of this, they claimed that successor liability (the idea that a person/company who assumes another companies assets is also assuming their liability) DID apply to them.

Even if you didn't buy that, or make the argument that the company is based in the UK and hasn't been registered in the US (as far as I can tell) and so a de facto merger does not apply, even if you do I still argue this: Under legal definition successor liability claims that a company will assume its parent liability if it does one of four things:

• the successor expressly or impliedly assumes obligations of the predecessor,
• the transaction is a de facto merger,
the successor is a mere continuation of the predecessor, or
• the transaction is a ruse to defraud the creditors and avoid liabilities of the predecessor.
http://definitions.u...om/s/successor/

Mere Continuation of Seller Entity. The third exception is where the purchaser corporation is a “mere continuation” of the seller, i.e., merely a restructured or reorganized form of seller's corporate entity and not simply a continuation of the business operation. This exception is aimed at owners and directors who may dissolve one company and begin another to avoid debts and liabilities. Factors include: (i) common identity of the officers, directors and shareholders in the selling and purchasing corporations (continuity of ownership or corporate structure), (ii) continuity of business operations, (iii) cessation of ordinary business by seller and (iv) inadequate consideration paid for assets .7


I underlined the third, and provided a definition because it applies directly to this. Frank has bought the company and continued its business practices under the same name, under the same procedures, using the same manufacturers.

Also in the case of Ray v. Alad Corp (a man sued a ladder making company that caused him to hurt himself, but the company had been dissolved and bought by another company) the Supreme Court of the United States assumes that in cases where a company continues practices made by the previous entity it is indeed liable.

"We therefore conclude that a party which acquires a manufacturing business and continues the output of its line of products under the circumstances here presented assumes strict tort liability for defects in units of the same product line previously manufactured and distributed by the entity from which the business was acquired. Anything to the contrary in Ortiz v. South Bend Lathe, supra, 46 Cal. App.3d 842, or Schwartz v. McGraw-Edison Co., supra, 14 Cal. App.3d 767 (see fn. 6, ante) is disapproved."


Because of that continuation I argue that has hasn't merely bought some assets, but assumed control of that company and with it should be held liable for its past debts.


http://www.ebeclaw.c...h_additions.pdf

^^^ A good read if you're interested.

Edited by poliuy, 01 August 2012 - 07:52 PM.


#131 unfated33

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Posted 01 August 2012 - 08:16 PM

rm, he didn't buy Vanguard. He created an independent company, Vanguard USA, and then purchased the assets of Vanguard. That statement implies that Vanguard either already was in bankruptcy prior to sale or that it will soon be in bankruptcy following the divesting of its assets. Since he didn't purchase the existing company, he was not saddled with the debts.

So I guess the following question is whether we should be mad at the previous owners of Vanguard or mad at Frank. That all depends on how the backroom dealings went down, but it was a good business decision for Frank to purchase the assets alone. Would it be great if Frank made right what other people did wrong? Absolutely. But unless Frank was somehow part of the business decisions at the time that got Vanguard so far into debt in the first place, laying all of the responsibility on his shoulders would be misguided.


Frank didn't just purchase some assets, he bought the whole company name and all.

" I bought all the assets of Vanguard, LTD. Do you want me to read off the list? I bought all the parts that the company had to make Vanguard markers, I bought the rights to the name, I own the trademarks and all intellectual property, the design rights, all websites and domains. Why did I buy it? I bought it because I saw value in the company and I saw the potential that their products have. I want to bring that product to customers. I want to take Vanguard to the next level, baby! Look to big things in the future for Vanguard. We’ll start with a Pro-series bolt for the Demon, with a spring, that should come out this week – it’s not a stock option or a warranty replacement, this is a genuine upgraded bolt system that will be in the pro-series Avalanche guns, but Demon owners can purchase them as a factory upgrade for their stock markers. I’ve been testing this bolt in my personal gun for the last two months, and I’ve played five tournaments in the past two months, and my marker has performed FLAWLESSLY."


In the case before a New York trial court MBIA Insurance Corp. v. Countrywide Home Loans, the court found that BOFA had assumed a de facto merger because it fit the following:

• continuity of ownership;

• cessation of ordinary business and dissolution of the acquired corporation as soon as possible;

• assumption by the successor of liabilities ordinarily necessary for the uninterrupted continuation of the business of the acquired corporation

• continuity of management, personnel, physical location, assets, and general business operation. http://www.lexology....2d-66bfee245e9d

Because of this, they claimed that successor liability (the idea that a person/company who assumes another companies assets is also assuming their liability) DID apply to them.

Even if you didn't buy that, or make the argument that the company is based in the UK and hasn't been registered in the US (as far as I can tell) and so a de facto merger does not apply, even if you do I still argue this: Under legal definition successor liability claims that a company will assume its parent liability if it does one of four things:

• the successor expressly or impliedly assumes obligations of the predecessor,
• the transaction is a de facto merger,
the successor is a mere continuation of the predecessor, or
• the transaction is a ruse to defraud the creditors and avoid liabilities of the predecessor.
http://definitions.u...om/s/successor/

Mere Continuation of Seller Entity. The third exception is where the purchaser corporation is a “mere continuation” of the seller, i.e., merely a restructured or reorganized form of seller's corporate entity and not simply a continuation of the business operation. This exception is aimed at owners and directors who may dissolve one company and begin another to avoid debts and liabilities. Factors include: (i) common identity of the officers, directors and shareholders in the selling and purchasing corporations (continuity of ownership or corporate structure), (ii) continuity of business operations, (iii) cessation of ordinary business by seller and (iv) inadequate consideration paid for assets .7


I underlined the third, and provided a definition because it applies directly to this. Frank has bought the company and continued its business practices under the same name, under the same procedures, using the same manufacturers.

Also in the case of Ray v. Alad Corp (a man sued a ladder making company that caused him to hurt himself, but the company had been dissolved and bought by another company) the Supreme Court of the United States assumes that in cases where a company continues practices made by the previous entity it is indeed liable.

"We therefore conclude that a party which acquires a manufacturing business and continues the output of its line of products under the circumstances here presented assumes strict tort liability for defects in units of the same product line previously manufactured and distributed by the entity from which the business was acquired. Anything to the contrary in Ortiz v. South Bend Lathe, supra, 46 Cal. App.3d 842, or Schwartz v. McGraw-Edison Co., supra, 14 Cal. App.3d 767 (see fn. 6, ante) is disapproved."


Because of that continuation I argue that has hasn't merely bought some assets, but assumed control of that company and with it should be held liable for its past debts.


http://www.ebeclaw.c...h_additions.pdf

^^^ A good read if you're interested.

I'm not saying the creditors have no case, but I don't fully think you've legally argued your point. First, I believe Vanguard USA is currently honoring their liability of the product line. I don't think there's been any question that markers purchased from Vanguard LTD won't be supported by Vanguard USA. However, tort liability does not imply nor guarantee credit obligations. While Mere Continuation does provide some protection from this type of situation happening, there are some factors which complicate a prima facie decision. They are that the prior business was incorporated in a foreign country, that to my knowledge the prior staff and physical presence storefront were not retained, and that controlling ownership of the company transferred to a new party. All of these would point to a distinct transfer of assets from two separate businesses unless Frank Connell had inside knowledge and control prior to bankruptcy of Vanguard LTD or the prior ownership of Vanguard LTD now has active interest or investment in Vanguard USA. Look at Factor i) in the definition of Mere Continuation - if that point doesn't hold then the condition cannot be held with merit.

I will be very interested to see if invested parties bring a lawsuit against Vanguard USA. However, short of that happening we must go with the null hypothesis that it was not legally or financially viable to pursue debt claims against Frank Connell.
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#132 poliuy

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Posted 01 August 2012 - 09:00 PM

I'm not saying the creditors have no case, but I don't fully think you've legally argued your point. First, I believe Vanguard USA is currently honoring their liability of the product line. I don't think there's been any question that markers purchased from Vanguard LTD won't be supported by Vanguard USA. However, tort liability does not imply nor guarantee credit obligations. While Mere Continuation does provide some protection from this type of situation happening, there are some factors which complicate a prima facie decision. They are that the prior business was incorporated in a foreign country, that to my knowledge the prior staff and physical presence storefront were not retained, and that controlling ownership of the company transferred to a new party. All of these would point to a distinct transfer of assets from two separate businesses unless Frank Connell had inside knowledge and control prior to bankruptcy of Vanguard LTD or the prior ownership of Vanguard LTD now has active interest or investment in Vanguard USA. Look at Factor i) in the definition of Mere Continuation - if that point doesn't hold then the condition cannot be held with merit.

I will be very interested to see if invested parties bring a lawsuit against Vanguard USA. However, short of that happening we must go with the null hypothesis that it was not legally or financially viable to pursue debt claims against Frank Connell.


As far as I know Vanguard, LTD never claimed bankruptcy, and Vanguard USA does not exist at this moment. Also he didn't buy the company and clean house, he bought with it its directors, officers, and administration (I assume this as he does not have a paintball company to maintain all the roles one would need). Maybe not it's CEO, but our knowledge of the company's inner-workings are limited to say the least. Read the Ray v. Alad case I linked, a company does not have to keep all of its directors and shareholders to constitute mere continuation, structure is more important here (which btw the area I cited discusses).

Also in Funai Electric Co., Ltd. v. Daewoo Electronics Corp a company that originates in a foreign country is not insulated against U.S law when an entity of that company resides in the U.S (Frank and any parts of the company that reside in the U.S.)

http://www.finnegan....e9-064694bf01af

I wasn't speaking about outside creditors in the sense of large scale business (or smaller ones) but those individuals who bought defective products which he said he would not refund or w/e. Also the company's storefront, websites, exist in the same fashion as they did previously.

Strict tort liability, which we are talking about, does imply credit obligations, clear as day.

Some little things I had a problem with in your argument. First, your use of first, but no second or third points described as such (a list began but never concluded with anything more than one point).

Second, your use of Prima Facie. The language there applies to evidence and the burden of proof that a plaintiff must provide (the evidence "on its face" must constitute liability of the accused party), not a decision rendered. I tried to look up anything about decisions and I found some Australian thingy here http://www.infocomm....atted Jan07.pdf however this doesn't apply to anything we are talking about.

Third, and lastly, you can't state "we must go with the null hypothesis" when none was given, and no other hypotheses were provided. You could have stated that "in my opinion it may have been financially viable for them to proceed with a case."

Anyway, this entire argument is wild speculation as we have no idea what the inner-workings of the company are.

Edited by poliuy, 01 August 2012 - 09:04 PM.


#133 bigx

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Posted 01 August 2012 - 10:11 PM

This thread is a fricking rollercoaster.

"I'm the Anti-Christ. You got me in a vendetta kind of mood. You tell the angels in heaven you never seen evil so singularly personified as you did in the face of the man who killed you."

 

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#134 unfated33

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Posted 01 August 2012 - 11:04 PM


I'm not saying the creditors have no case, but I don't fully think you've legally argued your point. First, I believe Vanguard USA is currently honoring their liability of the product line. I don't think there's been any question that markers purchased from Vanguard LTD won't be supported by Vanguard USA. However, tort liability does not imply nor guarantee credit obligations. While Mere Continuation does provide some protection from this type of situation happening, there are some factors which complicate a prima facie decision. They are that the prior business was incorporated in a foreign country, that to my knowledge the prior staff and physical presence storefront were not retained, and that controlling ownership of the company transferred to a new party. All of these would point to a distinct transfer of assets from two separate businesses unless Frank Connell had inside knowledge and control prior to bankruptcy of Vanguard LTD or the prior ownership of Vanguard LTD now has active interest or investment in Vanguard USA. Look at Factor i) in the definition of Mere Continuation - if that point doesn't hold then the condition cannot be held with merit.

I will be very interested to see if invested parties bring a lawsuit against Vanguard USA. However, short of that happening we must go with the null hypothesis that it was not legally or financially viable to pursue debt claims against Frank Connell.


As far as I know Vanguard, LTD never claimed bankruptcy, and Vanguard USA does not exist at this moment. Also he didn't buy the company and clean house, he bought with it its directors, officers, and administration (I assume this as he does not have a paintball company to maintain all the roles one would need). Maybe not it's CEO, but our knowledge of the company's inner-workings are limited to say the least. Read the Ray v. Alad case I linked, a company does not have to keep all of its directors and shareholders to constitute mere continuation, structure is more important here (which btw the area I cited discusses).

Also in Funai Electric Co., Ltd. v. Daewoo Electronics Corp a company that originates in a foreign country is not insulated against U.S law when an entity of that company resides in the U.S (Frank and any parts of the company that reside in the U.S.)

http://www.finnegan....e9-064694bf01af

I wasn't speaking about outside creditors in the sense of large scale business (or smaller ones) but those individuals who bought defective products which he said he would not refund or w/e. Also the company's storefront, websites, exist in the same fashion as they did previously.

Strict tort liability, which we are talking about, does imply credit obligations, clear as day.

Some little things I had a problem with in your argument. First, your use of first, but no second or third points described as such (a list began but never concluded with anything more than one point).

Second, your use of Prima Facie. The language there applies to evidence and the burden of proof that a plaintiff must provide (the evidence "on its face" must constitute liability of the accused party), not a decision rendered. I tried to look up anything about decisions and I found some Australian thingy here http://www.infocomm....atted Jan07.pdf however this doesn't apply to anything we are talking about.

Third, and lastly, you can't state "we must go with the null hypothesis" when none was given, and no other hypotheses were provided. You could have stated that "in my opinion it may have been financially viable for them to proceed with a case."

Anyway, this entire argument is wild speculation as we have no idea what the inner-workings of the company are.

All fair enough. Thanks for calling me on 1, 2, and 3 - I had those exact thoughts after I typed it: "Should I be using these?" Good information to have for the future.

I think I keep going with the assumption that bankruptcy must have occurred for someone to want to sell just the assets of a company to another party (taking away everything good about a company and leaving you with everything bad). However, I have yet to see any firm evidence that bankruptcy actually happened like you addressed. If all parties and particularly management structure are continuing intact from Vanguard LTD to Vanguard USA, then I don't have an argument to make nor want to make. I also hadn't heard that Frank was refusing to make right with defective products. My information there was flawed, as I looked back I realized that discussion on the commitment of support was coming from Citrus Connection players and not direct representatives of the company.

I will say that I've not seen case precedent to show that a website would constitute more of a storefront than a brick-and-mortar location. I'll try to see if I can find something. That's not as firm an issue for continuation if all employees of the company were carried over to a similar capacity in Vanguard USA. From my experience in dealing with a handful of continuation cases there was reuse of phone number, entire staff and officers, and particularly same physical address or neighboring addresses. At this point I also kind of think I should default to IANAL as well - I'm not speaking in a capacity as a lawyer, but rather as part of an organization impacted by parties avoiding their debts. That said, I think I'm deep enough in this to make that statement sound much like backpedalling - which I'm certainly doing in granting the nature of the sale of Van to Van is veiled to me.
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#135 unfated33

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Posted 01 August 2012 - 11:24 PM

I tried pulling a credit report on Vanguard USA but without a state of incorporation or a phone number (conspicuously absent from the website) the ability to search is limited. I can say that nothing is popping up for FL, MA, or MD which were my best guesses for headquarters. I have the ability to search based on officers, but interestingly the last record for Frank Connell is a VP position with Indian River Paintball.

OP, did you ever hear anything back from DYE?

EDIT: Further details - in the release information for the transfer of assets, a phone number was given with a 386 prefix. A credit search on that phone number pulls up 5 unrelated FL businesses (likely previous owners of the number). Also in that same release, it states that Vanguard USA will honor all warranty obligations for markers purchased under Vanguard LTD. I'm not sure how to square that with claims that he would not deal with customers that bought defective products.

Edited by Unfated33, 01 August 2012 - 11:33 PM.

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#136 Jarz

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Posted 01 August 2012 - 11:32 PM

So... How abut that gun you were planning on buying? :P

(attempt at steering this thread back on track)
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#137 bigx

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Posted 02 August 2012 - 07:58 AM

So... How abut that gun you were planning on buying? :P

(attempt at steering this thread back on track)


Taking a look at a possibly a CSL, I always liked eteks and egos why not just buy the best there is? I know I was looking at spools but I have NEVER owned one before and the whole "smooth" factor really dosent do anything for me.

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#138 Woodyballer29

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Posted 02 August 2012 - 08:41 AM

Has Dye replied yet?
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#139 Irish725

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Posted 02 August 2012 - 08:55 AM

I am just following this thread until I see a response from Dye (which more then likely will be hilariously cookie cutter, or really well written but with no info what so ever..).

Then it's

ABANDON THREAD!

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#140 Woodyballer29

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Posted 02 August 2012 - 08:57 AM

I am just following this thread until I see a response from Dye (which more then likely will be hilariously cookie cutter, or really well written but with no info what so ever..).

Then it's

ABANDON THREAD!


Same here, I might wait around to see his final purchase but I have a feeling there will be a serious gun/company war soon.
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#141 Darthdoug

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Posted 02 August 2012 - 10:19 AM

Personal opinion just on the emails:

MacDev gave you what you asked for, and not a lot more. A solid response.

PE gave you what you asked for with a ton of details. A GREAT response and shows commitment to customer service especially given how quick it was.

Dye... well Dye didn't give you what you wanted so far.
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#142 tripp

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Posted 02 August 2012 - 05:48 PM

btw, i realized something when i was at my field today
the POPS ASA is made in taiwan

why would PE pay to manufacture parts in 2 different places?
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#143 bigx

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Posted 02 August 2012 - 06:00 PM

huuumm interesting.

"I'm the Anti-Christ. You got me in a vendetta kind of mood. You tell the angels in heaven you never seen evil so singularly personified as you did in the face of the man who killed you."

 

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#144 mikehuff24

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Posted 03 August 2012 - 08:33 AM

I bought a DM12,Nt11, throttle and a bunch of other stuff from Dye and ive contacted CS numerous times and always had pleasant quick replies...but considering Dye is all about throwing their proclaimed awesomness all in everyones face, im completely shocked they didnt jump all over this shit.

#145 bigx

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Posted 03 August 2012 - 10:28 AM

I bought a DM12,Nt11, throttle and a bunch of other stuff from Dye and ive contacted CS numerous times and always had pleasant quick replies...but considering Dye is all about throwing their proclaimed awesomness all in everyones face, im completely shocked they didnt jump all over this shit.


Very disappointed three days no response.

"I'm the Anti-Christ. You got me in a vendetta kind of mood. You tell the angels in heaven you never seen evil so singularly personified as you did in the face of the man who killed you."

 

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#146 mikehuff24

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Posted 03 August 2012 - 11:18 AM

Very disappointed three days no response.


Yeah i understand where your comin from i would be for sure

Edited by mikehuff24, 03 August 2012 - 11:18 AM.


#147 Schuppert3

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Posted 03 August 2012 - 11:28 AM

Calling always works better than email. I have contacted dye numerous times through the phone. I do that with every company i just dont see the point in waiting on an email when i can call and have an answer in minutes.

yea I kept seeing banner ads for asianbeaver.com until I cleared my cache

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#148 GuyGrim

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Posted 03 August 2012 - 01:13 PM

yes it did


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#149 Goldkiller

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Posted 03 August 2012 - 01:38 PM

Ok, I wanna toss my $.02 in here, because a couple posts were just idiotic by uninformed people who don't know what they're talking about, dunno if anyone has called them out on it yet, but I didn't wanna read through all 8 pages post by post:

1) For whoever the hell thought that eclipse guns frames bend easier than everything else, meaning bad quality, you sir are dumb. PE frames are designed to bend in a bad dive or collision rather than not bend and injure the player, this was meant for the safety of the player. PE frames are designed to be easily replaceable for this reason, not poor design. (this statement from you makes me wonder if you have ever owned a PE gun)

2) Geo 3's brand new out of the box do shoot 9 pods and a hopper. I know this for a fact, I have a Geo3 that I played with for the first time this past weekend when I practiced with Vicious. In a rough test, I filled the gun to 4k (all the compressors only fill at 4k at that field) and played until I ran out of air, I got 10 pods and a hopper, and felt I could get a 11th out of it. It's a rough test I know, but when you're practicing with a professional team there's not much time for an efficiency test.

Edited by Goldkiller, 03 August 2012 - 02:03 PM.

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#150 Woodyballer29

Woodyballer29

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Posted 03 August 2012 - 01:43 PM

Ok, I wanna toss my $.02 in here, because a couple posts were just idiotic by uninformed people who don't know what they're talking about, dunno if anyone has called them out on it yet, but I didn't wanna read through all 8 pages post by post:

1) For whoever the hell thought that eclipse guns frames bend easier than everything else, meaning bad quality, you sir are dumb. PE frames are designed to bend in a bad dive or collision rather than not bend and injure the player, this was meant for the safety of the player. PE frames are designed to be easily replaceable for this reason, not poor design. (this statement from you makes me wonder if you have ever owned a PE gun)

2) Geo 3's brand new out of the box do shoot 9 pods and a hopper. I know this for a fact, I have a Geo3 that I played with for the first time this past weekend when I practiced with Vicious. In a rough test, I filled the gun to 4k (all the compressors only fill at 4k at that field) and played until I ran out of air, I got 10 pods and a hopper, and felt I could get a 11th out of it. It's a rough test I know, but when you're practicing with a professional team there's not much time for an efficiency test.

also to the OP if you would like a Geo3, I'm planning on selling the one I have in a couple weeks, for roughly $75-$100 off, if you're interested.


Well that's good then :) the efficiency tests that I have seen have not come close to that, the closest is 8.8 pods. (I took the shot count then divided it by 140.)When you were reloading did you get all of the paint in the hopper, and not half of it spilling out?

Edited by Woodyballer29, 03 August 2012 - 01:50 PM.

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