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isnt consistency and accuracy the same?


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#1 itsme123

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Posted 01 August 2012 - 09:10 PM

I always here people saying boring doesnt effect the accuracy, but it does with the consistency. Isnt something more accurate if it is more consistent?

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#2 andrewthewookie

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Posted 01 August 2012 - 09:12 PM

Yes and no. The problem is that paint itself is just not a good projectile, so the spread caused by the paint will tend to mask any inconsistency up to a significant ammount. The reason we value consistency is that with a consistent gun, you are able to chrono closer to the limit, so more of your shots will be at a higher FPS than if you had to chrono lower to account for an inconsistent gun. This gives you a greater effective range than someone who's got a more inconsistent gun.

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#3 drg

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Posted 01 August 2012 - 10:12 PM

Consistency is a component of accuracy but not the only one.
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#4 itsme123

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Posted 02 August 2012 - 11:42 AM

Yes and no. The problem is that paint itself is just not a good projectile, so the spread caused by the paint will tend to mask any inconsistency up to a significant ammount. The reason we value consistency is that with a consistent gun, you are able to chrono closer to the limit, so more of your shots will be at a higher FPS than if you had to chrono lower to account for an inconsistent gun. This gives you a greater effective range than someone who's got a more inconsistent gun.


OOOOHHHHHHH!! So underboring or overboring just allows you to up your fps a bit. Ok that makes total sense. I was just way confused, but you cleared it up thanks man. I have one more question though. Would I be better off going with a one piece barrel or two piece or does it really effect the guns performance at all?

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#5 Troy

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Posted 02 August 2012 - 12:04 PM


Yes and no. The problem is that paint itself is just not a good projectile, so the spread caused by the paint will tend to mask any inconsistency up to a significant ammount. The reason we value consistency is that with a consistent gun, you are able to chrono closer to the limit, so more of your shots will be at a higher FPS than if you had to chrono lower to account for an inconsistent gun. This gives you a greater effective range than someone who's got a more inconsistent gun.


OOOOHHHHHHH!! So underboring or overboring just allows you to up your fps a bit. Ok that makes total sense. I was just way confused, but you cleared it up thanks man. I have one more question though. Would I be better off going with a one piece barrel or two piece or does it really effect the guns performance at all?


IMO, it's better to go with one piece barrels... not for any performance reasons, but because they are easier to clean and easier to keep up with (it's much easier to find a 1 piece barrel in my gearbag then a matching front and back). I've got 3 total barrels a .678 and .685 Lurker Eigenbarrels, and a .692 stiffi. Between all of those I can shoot whatever the hell paint I want.
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#6 itsme123

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Posted 02 August 2012 - 12:11 PM

where did you find a low bore one piece?

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#7 cockerpunk

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Posted 02 August 2012 - 02:00 PM

one would think that the more consistent the setup, the more accurate. the same mass, flying through the same air .... and if they were all imparted with the exact same energy, would land in the same place.

the issue is that the air turbulence created by the paintball as it flies screws up the flight path so much, that small inconsistencies in initial velocity tend to be masked by it. from our testing we have not noticed a problem with accuracy until you are up in the +/- 10 fps kind of range, which most gun/barrel setups should be able to provide you.
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#8 Troy

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Posted 02 August 2012 - 03:42 PM

where did you find a low bore one piece?


Our very own Snipez4664 (aka Lurker) makes and sells some excellent low caliber one piece paintball barrels for ~$40. He's used all the testing data that we've come up with to make them. I've bought two off him. He's easy to deal with and ships quickly (and responds to PM's on the message board :tup:)... I highly recommend them.
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#9 itsme123

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Posted 02 August 2012 - 04:06 PM


where did you find a low bore one piece?


Our very own Snipez4664 (aka Lurker) makes and sells some excellent low caliber one piece paintball barrels for ~$40. He's used all the testing data that we've come up with to make them. I've bought two off him. He's easy to deal with and ships quickly (and responds to PM's on the message board :tup:)... I highly recommend them.


do they only come in autococker threading?

one would think that the more consistent the setup, the more accurate. the same mass, flying through the same air .... and if they were all imparted with the exact same energy, would land in the same place.

the issue is that the air turbulence created by the paintball as it flies screws up the flight path so much, that small inconsistencies in initial velocity tend to be masked by it. from our testing we have not noticed a problem with accuracy until you are up in the +/- 10 fps kind of range, which most gun/barrel setups should be able to provide you.


You lost me after the word "one"

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#10 brycelarson

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Posted 02 August 2012 - 05:13 PM

You lost me after the word "one"


funny guy.

basically paint sucks so anything that's +/- 15 fps or better will be fine.

#11 drg

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Posted 02 August 2012 - 06:13 PM


You lost me after the word "one"


funny guy.

basically paint sucks so anything that's +/- 15 fps or better will be fine.


Gotta take a bit of an issue with this. Though generalized accuracy at the ranges tested has shown no conclusive evidence, I don't think a 30 fps fluctuation is "fine" and if I was seeing that I would consider there to be something wrong with my setup. Let's also not forget another benefit of a tighter velocity grouping and being able to raise fps is impact energy, which affects breakage on target.

There absolutely is a base trajectory difference between a ball traveling 30 fps higher than another, and IMO why introduce that difference rather than eliminate it?

Edited by drg, 02 August 2012 - 06:14 PM.

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#12 Troy

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Posted 02 August 2012 - 06:18 PM

Gotta take a bit of an issue with this. Though generalized accuracy at the ranges tested has shown no conclusive evidence, I don't think a 30 fps fluctuation is "fine" and if I was seeing that I would consider there to be something wrong with my setup.


I guess this is true, of course, there isn't any conclusive counter evidence of Santa Clause either...
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#13 drg

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Posted 02 August 2012 - 06:24 PM

I guess this is true, of course, there isn't any conclusive counter evidence of Santa Clause either...


Well there's at least mathematical evidence of trajectory difference, so that's far more evidence than Santa Claus has. Which is my point, though it's difficult to pick out in testing, the math tells us it is there, so we should probably eliminate it.
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#14 itsme123

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Posted 02 August 2012 - 08:24 PM

again I have no idea what you guys are talking about<br>

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#15 cockerpunk

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Posted 02 August 2012 - 08:33 PM



You lost me after the word "one"


funny guy.

basically paint sucks so anything that's +/- 15 fps or better will be fine.


Gotta take a bit of an issue with this. Though generalized accuracy at the ranges tested has shown no conclusive evidence, I don't think a 30 fps fluctuation is "fine" and if I was seeing that I would consider there to be something wrong with my setup. Let's also not forget another benefit of a tighter velocity grouping and being able to raise fps is impact energy, which affects breakage on target.

There absolutely is a base trajectory difference between a ball traveling 30 fps higher than another, and IMO why introduce that difference rather than eliminate it?


i dont disagree, the point is arguing about a +/- 3 fps setup as more accurate then a +/- 5 fps setup is not worthwhile.

almost any setup should be able to provide you good enough consistency to not see any difference in accuracy. i think the lesson is not so much, stop chasing good consistency, but chase consistency for the right reasons, namely, range by being able to adjust your velocity higher etc.
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#16 itsme123

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Posted 02 August 2012 - 09:00 PM

ok so really there is no point in worrying about boring and one piece vs two piece barrels?

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#17 Troy

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Posted 02 August 2012 - 09:26 PM

I guess this is true, of course, there isn't any conclusive counter evidence of Santa Clause either...


Well there's at least mathematical evidence of trajectory difference, so that's far more evidence than Santa Claus has. Which is my point, though it's difficult to pick out in testing, the math tells us it is there, so we should probably eliminate it.


Exaggerations aside, we ran an anova on my last test, and it showed no significant correlation between speed and accuracy. It also showed no significant correlation between shot speed and Y height. Anyone that disagrees with my stats doesn't realize the significance of the statistical test that we used. So, in other words, I deny your above premise. The math says there is no significant endpoint location variation correlated to shot speed.

Like I alluded to earlier, I can't PROVE there isn't a correlation between speed and endpoint final location, but again... I can't PROVE that Santa Claus doesn't exist either. How many tests showing no significant correlation does it take to prove that you might be working under an unreasonable hypothesis?
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#18 drg

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Posted 02 August 2012 - 11:46 PM

The math says there is no significant endpoint location variation correlated to shot speed.


No, the math shows it exists. Your observations didn't find it, but that doesn't mean the math says it doesn't exist.

i dont disagree, the point is arguing about a +/- 3 fps setup as more accurate then a +/- 5 fps setup is not worthwhile.

almost any setup should be able to provide you good enough consistency to not see any difference in accuracy. i think the lesson is not so much, stop chasing good consistency, but chase consistency for the right reasons, namely, range by being able to adjust your velocity higher etc.


The ironic thing about this is that by accepting this as a reason, you are also explicitly accepting that a higher velocity has a different trajectory than a lower velocity (and arguably far less than 30 fps lower).

Edited by drg, 03 August 2012 - 12:02 AM.

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#19 brycelarson

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Posted 03 August 2012 - 07:19 AM

drg - I would never go on the field with a system giving me +/- 15 fps - but not for accuracy concerns. Even the cheapest modern gun is capable of much better than that. If you're getting +/- 15 fps there is most likely something wrong with your system - and it should be corrected. In play however, you won't be at an accuracy disadvantage.

#20 Molybdenum

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Posted 03 August 2012 - 07:29 AM

ok so really there is no point in worrying about boring and one piece vs two piece barrels?


Not from an accuracy standpoint, no.

#21 cockerpunk

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Posted 03 August 2012 - 08:44 AM

The ironic thing about this is that by accepting this as a reason, you are also explicitly accepting that a higher velocity has a different trajectory than a lower velocity (and arguably far less than 30 fps lower).


not really .... its not trajectory at range that i want ... its velocity at range. range isn't a limit of flight path in paintball, range is limited by the velocity drop causing bounces. brittle paint is a range extender, higher muzzle velocity is a range extender ...

im not saying shooting it faster doesn't change the trajectory, but again ... lets talk about real reasons to do things, not imagined ones.
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And yes, Gordon is the sexiest manifestation of "to the front."


#22 Troy

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Posted 03 August 2012 - 09:00 AM

No, the math shows it exists. Your observations didn't find it, but that doesn't mean the math says it doesn't exist.


No significant correlation. Your hypothesis flies in the face of measured data... that is the definition of insanity. If your math shows it exists, but you can't measure it, then there is something that you aren't accounting for in your model.
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#23 itsme123

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Posted 03 August 2012 - 10:55 AM


ok so really there is no point in worrying about boring and one piece vs two piece barrels?


Not from an accuracy standpoint, no.


so than from what standpoint?

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#24 The_Economist

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Posted 03 August 2012 - 11:10 AM



ok so really there is no point in worrying about boring and one piece vs two piece barrels?


Not from an accuracy standpoint, no.


so than from what standpoint?


Aesthetics, price, personal taste. If a two piece barrel looks better / makes you happy / is cheaper and is the same bore as a one piece barrel, then get it. It won't make a difference on the field.

Edited by The_Economist, 03 August 2012 - 11:11 AM.


#25 Troy

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Posted 03 August 2012 - 11:15 AM



ok so really there is no point in worrying about boring and one piece vs two piece barrels?


Not from an accuracy standpoint, no.


so than from what standpoint?


By narrowing down the possible velocity spread to as small a window as possible, you are ensuring that you are hitting the target with as much force as is possible, thereby giving your paint the maximal chance of breaking possible.

Case in point: if the max you are allowed to shoot is 280fps and you have a 30fps velocity spread, some of your shots will start out at 250fps and some 280fps. If I have a marker that has a spread of 6 fps, and the minimum velocity I shoot at is 274fps. Who do you think is more likely to hit their intended target and have their paint break on it?

Edited by Troy, 03 August 2012 - 11:17 AM.

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#26 brycelarson

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Posted 03 August 2012 - 02:30 PM

efficiency too. If I can squeeze 5% or 7% more shots out of a tank my mag becomes much more useful.

#27 drg

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Posted 03 August 2012 - 08:23 PM

not really .... its not trajectory at range that i want ... its velocity at range. range isn't a limit of flight path in paintball, range is limited by the velocity drop causing bounces. brittle paint is a range extender, higher muzzle velocity is a range extender ...

im not saying shooting it faster doesn't change the trajectory, but again ... lets talk about real reasons to do things, not imagined ones.


Gonna have to call BS on this one, the physical characteristics of the ball's trajectory is more what we consider "range," we generally are not talking about effective paintbreaking range when we talk about the range of a marker. Not the least reason for this is that the surface the paintball strikes has a large effect on whether it breaks, and that can range from very hard to very soft on any given target. No one would consider a switch from, say, Infinity to Ultra Evil as an increase in "range."

No significant correlation. Your hypothesis flies in the face of measured data... that is the definition of insanity. If your math shows it exists, but you can't measure it, then there is something that you aren't accounting for in your model.


It squares with calculations though, that is undeniable. It's not my model that isn't accounting for something; I am 100% confident that velocity variability is best eliminated. It is mathematically proven as one of the variables in a paintball's flight. Your interpretation of your observation is what is missing something -- you need to explain why your results don't square with the math. And it's not because the math doesn't exist or is wrong.

Edited by drg, 03 August 2012 - 08:27 PM.

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#28 cockerpunk

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Posted 03 August 2012 - 08:58 PM

not really .... its not trajectory at range that i want ... its velocity at range. range isn't a limit of flight path in paintball, range is limited by the velocity drop causing bounces. brittle paint is a range extender, higher muzzle velocity is a range extender ...

im not saying shooting it faster doesn't change the trajectory, but again ... lets talk about real reasons to do things, not imagined ones.


Gonna have to call BS on this one, the physical characteristics of the ball's trajectory is more what we consider "range," we generally are not talking about effective paintbreaking range when we talk about the range of a marker. Not the least reason for this is that the surface the paintball strikes has a large effect on whether it breaks, and that can range from very hard to very soft on any given target. No one would consider a switch from, say, Infinity to Ultra Evil as an increase in "range."


i dont know where you play, but a bounce is not an elimination where i play.
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#29 drg

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Posted 04 August 2012 - 01:06 AM

i dont know where you play, but a bounce is not an elimination where i play.


Whether I catch a bounce or a break, I consider myself in range of the player that shot the ball. I don't know anyone who wouldn't.

Edited by drg, 04 August 2012 - 01:13 AM.

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#30 Troy

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Posted 04 August 2012 - 07:38 AM

It squares with calculations though, that is undeniable. It's not my model that isn't accounting for something; I am 100% confident that velocity variability is best eliminated. It is mathematically proven as one of the variables in a paintball's flight. Your interpretation of your observation is what is missing something -- you need to explain why your results don't square with the math. And it's not because the math doesn't exist or is wrong.


Put up or shut up. Tell me what's wrong with my test and why my methodology doesn't show that velocity is correlated with final shot positions. If you are going to criticize my methodology, quit bring out this weak, speculative, BS and give me something I can actually respond to.

Every person on here, by now, knows why velocity fluctuations don't appear significant in the final shot position... so I have to explain nothing. Your simple model fails to capture very significant forces effecting the paintball's flight. It's not my problem that you can't model those, and it certainly isn't my problem that my test doesn't support a hypothesis you are "100% confident" in.

i dont know where you play, but a bounce is not an elimination where i play.


Whether I catch a bounce or a break, I consider myself in range of the player that shot the ball. I don't know anyone who wouldn't.


You are nothing but a contrarian. CP was talking about effective range. If you would quit trying to find things to disagree with in other people's posts, maybe we could go back to talking about important things again.
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#31 slinkyaroo

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Posted 04 August 2012 - 09:16 AM

Accuracy is the player and not the marker. You can consistently lay 10 balls 1" apart but if it's 5' away from the opp then ....

#32 drg

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Posted 04 August 2012 - 11:50 AM

Put up or shut up. Tell me what's wrong with my test and why my methodology doesn't show that velocity is correlated with final shot positions. If you are going to criticize my methodology, quit bring out this weak, speculative, BS and give me something I can actually respond to.

Every person on here, by now, knows why velocity fluctuations don't appear significant in the final shot position... so I have to explain nothing. Your simple model fails to capture very significant forces effecting the paintball's flight. It's not my problem that you can't model those, and it certainly isn't my problem that my test doesn't support a hypothesis you are "100% confident" in.


There's nothing inherently wrong with your methodology, it just doesn't show what you say it shows. There's nothing speculative about what I'm saying, paintballs do not defy the laws of physics. And it's not like this isn't common sense either, anyone who has chronoed the same gun 30 fps higher or lower knows it doesn't shoot the same.

You are nothing but a contrarian. CP was talking about effective range. If you would quit trying to find things to disagree with in other people's posts, maybe we could go back to talking about important things again.


I'm not the contrarian here. "Range" is not "effective range" in general paintball concepts. It's all about whether you can put a ball on someone else, and if you can, you are in range. That's pretty simple and anyone who has ever played paintball understands this concept. Effectiveness, breaks, etc. are a much more complicated question; you can be in a wide range of distances and be hit with a wide range of impact energies and receive a break or a bounce depending on many factors such as where you are hit, the angle you are hit, etc.

But if you're getting hit with a ball you absolutely are in range of someone. It's contrarian to assert otherwise.
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#33 PB2011

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Posted 05 August 2012 - 03:14 PM

Put up or shut up. Tell me what's wrong with my test and why my methodology doesn't show that velocity is correlated with final shot positions. If you are going to criticize my methodology, quit bring out this weak, speculative, BS and give me something I can actually respond to.

Every person on here, by now, knows why velocity fluctuations don't appear significant in the final shot position... so I have to explain nothing. Your simple model fails to capture very significant forces effecting the paintball's flight. It's not my problem that you can't model those, and it certainly isn't my problem that my test doesn't support a hypothesis you are "100% confident" in.


There's nothing inherently wrong with your methodology, it just doesn't show what you say it shows. There's nothing speculative about what I'm saying, paintballs do not defy the laws of physics. And it's not like this isn't common sense either, anyone who has chronoed the same gun 30 fps higher or lower knows it doesn't shoot the same.

You are nothing but a contrarian. CP was talking about effective range. If you would quit trying to find things to disagree with in other people's posts, maybe we could go back to talking about important things again.


I'm not the contrarian here. "Range" is not "effective range" in general paintball concepts. It's all about whether you can put a ball on someone else, and if you can, you are in range. That's pretty simple and anyone who has ever played paintball understands this concept. Effectiveness, breaks, etc. are a much more complicated question; you can be in a wide range of distances and be hit with a wide range of impact energies and receive a break or a bounce depending on many factors such as where you are hit, the angle you are hit, etc.

But if you're getting hit with a ball you absolutely are in range of someone. It's contrarian to assert otherwise.


I hate to be that random guy who jumps into conversations, but I've been in numerous situations where I was in a range where I was getting hit quite often, and never had to worry about the paint breaking on me because the velocity of the paintball had slowed down to a point where it was almost impossible for it to break.
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#34 drg

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Posted 05 August 2012 - 03:51 PM

I hate to be that random guy who jumps into conversations, but I've been in numerous situations where I was in a range where I was getting hit quite often, and never had to worry about the paint breaking on me because the velocity of the paintball had slowed down to a point where it was almost impossible for it to break.


Anyone who plays paintball has probably been in this situation many times. Yet if the ball hits you, you are in range of the shooter. While you may not be concerned about a body hit at that range, paint that strikes a hard target (mask, gun, loader, etc.) can and will break out to near the maximum range of the marker. If you're getting hit, you're going to take steps to not get hit, unless you are foolish.

Edited by drg, 05 August 2012 - 03:52 PM.

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#35 cockerpunk

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Posted 05 August 2012 - 07:47 PM

i dont know where you play, but a bounce is not an elimination where i play.


Whether I catch a bounce or a break, I consider myself in range of the player that shot the ball. I don't know anyone who wouldn't.

take bouncers all the time in big games from the long ballers with no hope of a break. even been hit in the gun, and mask lens by long ballers ... means they are well out of range.

Edited by cockerpunk, 05 August 2012 - 07:48 PM.

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#36 Troy

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Posted 05 August 2012 - 08:54 PM

Posted Image
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#37 drg

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Posted 06 August 2012 - 09:45 AM

Troy, can you specify which data you are basing your assertions on? Is it this? http://www.techpb.co...howtopic=195740
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#38 Troy

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Posted 06 August 2012 - 12:19 PM

Troy, can you specify which data you are basing your assertions on? Is it this? http://www.techpb.co...howtopic=195740


That's it.
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#39 drg

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Posted 06 August 2012 - 12:45 PM

I'm sorry but to make sweeping generalizations like there is no significant difference in trajectory between velocities from a 10-yard test is ... irresponsible, to be charitable.
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#40 Troy

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Posted 06 August 2012 - 01:19 PM

I'm sorry but to make sweeping generalizations like there is no significant difference in trajectory between velocities from a 10-yard test is ... irresponsible, to be charitable.


Meh, you have every right to be wrong. We proved that there was significant, detectable, differences at even less then that range. If you don't care about the statistical tests we used to prove my methods, then I could care less about your opinion. I'll wait till someone that has an actual complaint that wasn't addressed in the methodology submits a critique.

BTW, rntlee's test shows no significant correlation between speed and final height... I would link you to that, but... frankly, I don't give a shit.

Edited by Troy, 06 August 2012 - 01:31 PM.

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#41 drg

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Posted 06 August 2012 - 01:44 PM

I'm not complaining about your methodology, just pointing out it doesn't prove what you say it does. The calculated drop at 10 yards with a 30 fps fluctuation is very small, less than the width of a paintball, i.e. your test actually cannot show the difference. The differences magnify further downrange and do end up being significant. You will notice that cockerpunk also noted the same issue in the thread.

EDIT: Rntlee's test also occurred at a distance of fairly minimal calculated drop (about 1.5" @ 30 fps change) and the majority of his values were within about 12 fps so ... the drop is not expected to be detectable there either.

Edited by drg, 06 August 2012 - 02:14 PM.

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#42 Troy

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Posted 06 August 2012 - 03:04 PM

I'm not complaining about your methodology, just pointing out it doesn't prove what you say it does. The calculated drop at 10 yards with a 30 fps fluctuation is very small, less than the width of a paintball, i.e. your test actually cannot show the difference. The differences magnify further downrange and do end up being significant. You will notice that cockerpunk also noted the same issue in the thread.

EDIT: Rntlee's test also occurred at a distance of fairly minimal calculated drop (about 1.5" @ 30 fps change) and the majority of his values were within about 12 fps so ... the drop is not expected to be detectable there either.


By George, he's starting to get it.... Keep in mind that when you increase the range, the background "noise" is increased as well. You can note the rate of expansion by viewing my results at different distances. I didn't put a whole lot of effort into analyzing the different distances (I'll go over it again when I get home), but I suspect that the noise increases exponentially (which makes sense), whereas the possible changes due to velocity fluctuations expand at a much lower rate. Any effects on the Y axis due to speed fluctuations are totally lost in the noise that is produced by vortex shedding and thus all significance is lost. Further testing isn't going to find any changes in velocity being correlated to velocity changes, simply because, the background noise will be so high. So, again, no significant correlation. This doesn't mean that Newtonian physics has flown out the window, but if you are using simple models to predict the ball's endpoint, you are neglecting some of the most major forces that effect the ball's accuracy. If your model didn't even account for some, fairly, major velocity fluctuations, it wouldn't narrow the degree of error in a detectable manner.

Furthermore, to reiterate the point that I made initially, if you can't detect the differences in shot velocities at ranges that people ACTUALLY shoot at, then what the hell is the point of arguing that a marker that shoots +/-5fps over the crono is worse then shooting +/-1fps over the crono from an accuracy standpoint?

I would much rather talk about important things that effect accuracy, and not get caught up in the undetectable minutia.

Edited by Troy, 06 August 2012 - 03:07 PM.

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#43 drg

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Posted 06 August 2012 - 06:01 PM

Furthermore, to reiterate the point that I made initially, if you can't detect the differences in shot velocities at ranges that people ACTUALLY shoot at, then what the hell is the point of arguing that a marker that shoots +/-5fps over the crono is worse then shooting +/-1fps over the crono from an accuracy standpoint?

I would much rather talk about important things that effect accuracy, and not get caught up in the undetectable minutia.


I don't find a 30 fps velocity difference undetectable by a long stretch, nor would any honest paintball player. You seem to have your nose a little too close to the data and, I suspect, are searching for a little too much ... specialness ... in your analyses. This is not an uncommon event in this forum, unfortunately.

I was hoping you'd bring up the distance "people actually shoot at" ... I regularly shoot to the maximum range of my marker and many if not most players do the same. In your defense of the 10-yard test as relevant you mentioned that you noticed a lot of your kills come at that range, so it was not necessarily relevant to study longer ranges. I think that's a classic case of the hypothesis adversely affecting the study, a kind of self-fulfillment. I venture that it's the other way around, the consistent trajectory at that range contributes to the increase in kills. In a way the math tells us it is a foregone conclusion that this would be so.
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#44 Troy

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Posted 06 August 2012 - 07:14 PM

I don't find a 30 fps velocity difference undetectable by a long stretch, nor would any honest paintball player. You seem to have your nose a little too close to the data and, I suspect, are searching for a little too much ... specialness ... in your analyses. This is not an uncommon event in this forum, unfortunately.

I was hoping you'd bring up the distance "people actually shoot at" ... I regularly shoot to the maximum range of my marker and many if not most players do the same. In your defense of the 10-yard test as relevant you mentioned that you noticed a lot of your kills come at that range, so it was not necessarily relevant to study longer ranges. I think that's a classic case of the hypothesis adversely affecting the study, a kind of self-fulfillment. I venture that it's the other way around, the consistent trajectory at that range contributes to the increase in kills. In a way the math tells us it is a foregone conclusion that this would be so.


Here I thought you were actually getting somewhere... *sigh*

In my very first post I said "Exaggerations aside..." meaning that I thought that Bryce was exaggerating a bit with the 30fps speed range, using hyperbole to make his point. You can continue to beat on your strawman, if that makes you feel better about yourself.

I guess you totally missed what I was saying about vortex shedding increasing the degree of error at a faster rate than speed fluctuations... Whether or not you make kills at 5 feet or 500 feet, the significance of initial speed fluctuations effects on the ball's flight decreases exponentially in relationship to how much vortex shedding effects the flight path. I'm glad you had that pre-programmed response for distance, but I don't give a shit what range you shoot at. The data is there, you can either look at it, or ignore it... your choice.
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#45 drg

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Posted 06 August 2012 - 07:39 PM

In my very first post I said "Exaggerations aside..." meaning that I thought that Bryce was exaggerating a bit with the 30fps speed range, using hyperbole to make his point. You can continue to beat on your strawman, if that makes you feel better about yourself.


Actually those fps figures are accurate to their testing, as far as I know. He is, unfortunately, like you, overstating the meaning of the data, though you are doing it to a much greater degree.

I guess you totally missed what I was saying about vortex shedding increasing the degree of error at a faster rate than speed fluctuations... Whether or not you make kills at 5 feet or 500 feet, the significance of initial speed fluctuations effects on the ball's flight decreases exponentially in relationship to how much vortex shedding effects the flight path. I'm glad you had that pre-programmed response for distance, but I don't give a shit what range you shoot at. The data is there, you can either look at it, or ignore it... your choice.


Unfortunately no, there has yet to be data presented on these forums of the ranges where differences in initial velocity make the most difference, which is well within playing ranges (though on the long side).

Edited by drg, 06 August 2012 - 07:42 PM.

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#46 Troy

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Posted 07 August 2012 - 08:59 AM

Actually those fps figures are accurate to their testing, as far as I know. He is, unfortunately, like you, overstating the meaning of the data, though you are doing it to a much greater degree.


Clearly, you know more about what I meant when I made that reply then I did.

Unfortunately no, there has yet to be data presented on these forums of the ranges where differences in initial velocity make the most difference, which is well within playing ranges (though on the long side).


It's high time for you to put up or shut up. I've submitted a perfectly reasonable hypothesis, prove me wrong.
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#47 cockerpunk

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Posted 07 August 2012 - 10:31 AM

we have 100, 125, and 150 foot data available ... from out testing. clearly shows the same lack of a trend.
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#48 Bauzer

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Posted 07 August 2012 - 03:00 PM

jimmies are being rustled in this thread

let me know if you find any good porn on it, always got room on the thumbdrive :-)


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#49 drg

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Posted 07 August 2012 - 03:47 PM

we have 100, 125, and 150 foot data available ... from out testing. clearly shows the same lack of a trend.


These tests are not testing what we are discussing here and slicing up the data therein to comment on something they didn't test is IMO misleading.

Part of the issue is the way "+/- 15 fps" has been expressed. It is actually a very vague statement. +/- 15 says nothing about the velocity SD, so it could mean anything from a few outliers to fairly heavy inconsistency. The practical result, as we all agree, is that a more consistent gun can chrono higher than another.

None of these tests are comparing the results of one gun chronoed at a different speed than another because of a difference in velocity SD. I'm not 100% sure how you would test this.

Edited by drg, 07 August 2012 - 03:50 PM.

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#50 cockerpunk

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Posted 07 August 2012 - 06:15 PM


we have 100, 125, and 150 foot data available ... from out testing. clearly shows the same lack of a trend.


These tests are not testing what we are discussing here and slicing up the data therein to comment on something they didn't test is IMO misleading.


i call it using data effectively. we took it, its accurate, and it has clear conclusions, just because we didn't explicitly state we were testing it doesn't mean the data is suddenly less conclusive

Part of the issue is the way "+/- 15 fps" has been expressed. It is actually a very vague statement. +/- 15 says nothing about the velocity SD, so it could mean anything from a few outliers to fairly heavy inconsistency. The practical result, as we all agree, is that a more consistent gun can chrono higher than another.

None of these tests are comparing the results of one gun chronoed at a different speed than another because of a difference in velocity SD. I'm not 100% sure how you would test this.


im fine with that, still doesn't make our data less conclusive on the topic.
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