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#51 drg

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Posted 23 October 2012 - 08:53 PM

Actually it is a fact that the monetary value of a marker can be driven by factors other than what o-baller mentioned. That's my point and it's not an opinion. It's basic economics.
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#52 The-Phantom

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Posted 24 October 2012 - 11:41 AM

Actually it is a fact that the monetary value of a marker can be driven by factors other than what o-baller mentioned. That's my point and it's not an opinion. It's basic economics.


are you referring to build quality of a product (something of the likes of CCM and others) or build materials? such as Palmers stuff, because brass costs a bit more then aluminum, or different alloys commonly used (seen in guns like CCM's, MVP's, Revolutions, Gargs, Ducks, Carters etc)

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#53 drg

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Posted 24 October 2012 - 04:41 PM


Actually it is a fact that the monetary value of a marker can be driven by factors other than what o-baller mentioned. That's my point and it's not an opinion. It's basic economics.


are you referring to build quality of a product (something of the likes of CCM and others) or build materials? such as Palmers stuff, because brass costs a bit more then aluminum, or different alloys commonly used (seen in guns like CCM's, MVP's, Revolutions, Gargs, Ducks, Carters etc)


All of the above and more. A lot goes into the pricing of any given product, that's the point. People are trying to say that specific aspects of function should determine price, and we all know (well all mature people know) that product pricing is far more complicated than that.
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#54 o-baller

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Posted 25 October 2012 - 10:05 PM



Actually it is a fact that the monetary value of a marker can be driven by factors other than what o-baller mentioned. That's my point and it's not an opinion. It's basic economics.


are you referring to build quality of a product (something of the likes of CCM and others) or build materials? such as Palmers stuff, because brass costs a bit more then aluminum, or different alloys commonly used (seen in guns like CCM's, MVP's, Revolutions, Gargs, Ducks, Carters etc)


All of the above and more. A lot goes into the pricing of any given product, that's the point. People are trying to say that specific aspects of function should determine price, and we all know (well all mature people know) that product pricing is far more complicated than that.


Which is not what I was arguing at all. I simply said that they are not worth being made as well as they are because they are already outdated and for 500 bucks you can get a very good e-gun that in most measurable categories is better. However, I will agree that some pumps do cost that much to make. And of course making something out of titanium would make it more costly than cast iron. I just assumed that was an extremely obvious point and bypassed it... either way, it is unimportant

BTW, I own a Grey Ghost and do like pumps... Just in case anyone thought I was bashing pumps. And as far as I read, there was no flaming going on. At least none was intended on my part.

Edited by o-baller, 25 October 2012 - 10:23 PM.

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#55 Corysllw

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Posted 25 October 2012 - 10:12 PM

So...much...scrolling :blink:

#56 drg

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Posted 25 October 2012 - 11:06 PM

Which is not what I was arguing at all. I simply said that they are not worth being made as well as they are because they are already outdated and for 500 bucks you can get a very good e-gun that in most measurable categories is better.


You say that's not what you were arguing then argue it in the next sentence. :rolleyes: There are even aspects that have nothing to do with the physical production of the gun that drive price.

The MVP is one of the most modern pump guns on the market today and it is still being produced, it's literally as far away from outdated as can possibly be. CCMs similarly are quite modern despite being based on classic designs.

There is one really important category that no semi will ever match up to any pump gun in -- the "is it a pump gun?" category. And there is a really important category that no e-gun will ever match up to a mechanical gun in -- the "is it a mech gun?" category. E-semis have zero value in either of those categories.

Edited by drg, 25 October 2012 - 11:08 PM.

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#57 o-baller

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Posted 26 October 2012 - 03:58 PM

Which is not what I was arguing at all. I simply said that they are not worth being made as well as they are because they are already outdated and for 500 bucks you can get a very good e-gun that in most measurable categories is better.


You say that's not what you were arguing then argue it in the next sentence. :rolleyes: There are even aspects that have nothing to do with the physical production of the gun that drive price.

The MVP is one of the most modern pump guns on the market today and it is still being produced, it's literally as far away from outdated as can possibly be. CCMs similarly are quite modern despite being based on classic designs.

There is one really important category that no semi will ever match up to any pump gun in -- the "is it a pump gun?" category. And there is a really important category that no e-gun will ever match up to a mechanical gun in -- the "is it a mech gun?" category. E-semis have zero value in either of those categories.


I realize that there are many factors that drive cost. You aren't the only one that understands Econ 101... And once again I said that while a pump guns cost of production might be as high as they are priced to produce, they are outdated in the fact that you have to Pump them to shoot. Just because the MVP has a new valve system doesn't mean it is modern technology. It is outdated by the simple matter that you must pump it to shoot. So yes, it might cost $650 to make an MVP, but it performs much worse than you're run of the mill $250 electro.

So I say again, a $600 dollar pump is only worth buying if you like playing pump and want an extremely well made gun (this is important to my point). One of the earlier post had asked if it was worth buying a revolution if it cost $600. My argument is that if you have to ask that question, then it isn't worth buying that particular gun to you. I said nothing about manufacturing cost of a pump being lower than an electro... which is what I assume you think I said

And what were you talking about with the categories? That makes no sense... that's like saying a car won't be a truck because it's a car...

Anyways, I'm annoying others on this forum, so I'll just stop. This argument has moved nowhere anyways

Edited by o-baller, 26 October 2012 - 04:05 PM.

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#58 drg

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Posted 26 October 2012 - 08:13 PM

they are outdated in the fact that you have to Pump them to shoot.


Completely false premise, your argument goes off the rails there and never comes back.

And what were you talking about with the categories? That makes no sense... that's like saying a car won't be a truck because it's a car...


Yes, that's exactly the point. Have you never bought a vehicle before? If you are in the market for a truck, the fastest, most modern, most powerful car in the world is meaningless.
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#59 DamianE

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Posted 26 October 2012 - 09:05 PM

I can sum up what drg is saying as well:

I have $600 dollars saved up because I want a pump gun. Am I going to buy the first awesome deal, on an e-gun model that I like? No, because at the moment, a $600 dollar pump gun has higher value to me.

The value of a pump gun is so high because of many potential reasons, Maybe because it's a niche market; Maybe because high-end pumps are made with tighter tolerances....

Or maybe It's because the PB community is willing to pay that price, and therefore, that is what its worth.


Look at it this way:

If I buy a house for 150K and its tax value is at 175K, then I am sure as shit going to the comptroller's office and saying: "This house is not worth 175K because I just bought it for 150K"

After a few weeks of waiting the house is now oficially worth 150K.

Value is not something that can be applied solely on the factors of complexity or practicality.

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#60 o-baller

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Posted 26 October 2012 - 11:00 PM

they are outdated in the fact that you have to Pump them to shoot.


Completely false premise, your argument goes off the rails there and never comes back.

And what were you talking about with the categories? That makes no sense... that's like saying a car won't be a truck because it's a car...


Yes, that's exactly the point. Have you never bought a vehicle before? If you are in the market for a truck, the fastest, most modern, most powerful car in the world is meaningless.


Which is where the original context of my first post comes in. The guy asked if all the changes in the CCI Revolution were worth the money. I said that it is not if you are looking for performance. It is if you are looking for a high end pump. Usually when someone asks if a pump is worth the money, they are new to pump, looking for the highest performing gun, and don't understand the point of playing with a pump. If you have to ask if they are worth it, then they probably aren't worth it to you.

And how is saying a pump is outdated a false premise. Last I checked, a pump has no performance advantage but lots of disadvantages. Which is the reason we use them after all.

Edited by o-baller, 26 October 2012 - 11:06 PM.

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#61 Pump Player

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Posted 26 October 2012 - 11:28 PM

I need to start activating flame shields when I make this stuff -_-

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#62 o-baller

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Posted 26 October 2012 - 11:30 PM

I need to start activating flame shields when I make this stuff -_-


You could just not read it...

edit- just saw you made the post. Sorry It went so off topic, but did you get the info you wanted?

Edited by o-baller, 26 October 2012 - 11:34 PM.

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#63 o-baller

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Posted 26 October 2012 - 11:33 PM

I need to start activating flame shields when I make this stuff -_-

Woops, double post noob

Edited by o-baller, 26 October 2012 - 11:34 PM.

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#64 drg

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Posted 27 October 2012 - 12:42 AM

And how is saying a pump is outdated a false premise. Last I checked, a pump has no performance advantage but lots of disadvantages. Which is the reason we use them after all.


That's sort of like saying manual transmissions are outdated. Pump action is not outdated in the least, and arguably even less so than just a few years ago before the "resurgence" of pump started creating pump classes and pump-only type events. Pump is just another type of loading mechanism. It's no more outdated on paintball guns as it is on shotguns.

Edited by drg, 27 October 2012 - 12:45 AM.

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#65 o-baller

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Posted 27 October 2012 - 06:09 PM

And how is saying a pump is outdated a false premise. Last I checked, a pump has no performance advantage but lots of disadvantages. Which is the reason we use them after all.


That's sort of like saying manual transmissions are outdated. Pump action is not outdated in the least, and arguably even less so than just a few years ago before the "resurgence" of pump started creating pump classes and pump-only type events. Pump is just another type of loading mechanism. It's no more outdated on paintball guns as it is on shotguns.



There are reasons that Shotguns are still pumps in many applications (bean bag rounds or something of that nature have lower charge amount and sometimes don't re-cock a semi-auto shotgun). There are no reasons for using in paintball save for the user to give himself a mechanical disadvantage (excluding pump only events, in which you must use one) and to save money.

Same with manual transmissions... they are only for fun anymore as automatics have become so good.

Edited by o-baller, 27 October 2012 - 06:10 PM.

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#66 drg

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Posted 28 October 2012 - 01:36 AM

There are reasons that Shotguns are still pumps in many applications (bean bag rounds or something of that nature have lower charge amount and sometimes don't re-cock a semi-auto shotgun). There are no reasons for using in paintball save for the user to give himself a mechanical disadvantage (excluding pump only events, in which you must use one) and to save money.

Same with manual transmissions... they are only for fun anymore as automatics have become so good.


Boy this is really all going over your head isn't it?
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#67 o-baller

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Posted 28 October 2012 - 07:00 PM

There are reasons that Shotguns are still pumps in many applications (bean bag rounds or something of that nature have lower charge amount and sometimes don't re-cock a semi-auto shotgun). There are no reasons for using in paintball save for the user to give himself a mechanical disadvantage (excluding pump only events, in which you must use one) and to save money.

Same with manual transmissions... they are only for fun anymore as automatics have become so good.


Boy this is really all going over your head isn't it?


I could say the same...
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#68 drg

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Posted 29 October 2012 - 12:07 AM


There are reasons that Shotguns are still pumps in many applications (bean bag rounds or something of that nature have lower charge amount and sometimes don't re-cock a semi-auto shotgun). There are no reasons for using in paintball save for the user to give himself a mechanical disadvantage (excluding pump only events, in which you must use one) and to save money.

Same with manual transmissions... they are only for fun anymore as automatics have become so good.


Boy this is really all going over your head isn't it?


I could say the same...


About yourself. You keep making my point over and over, then trying to deny it. Especially that last one about manual transmissions. There should NEVER be a manual transmission more expensive than any auto, there's just NO REASON! :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :tdn: :tdn:

Edited by drg, 29 October 2012 - 12:08 AM.

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#69 o-baller

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Posted 29 October 2012 - 12:10 PM

About yourself. You keep making my point over and over, then trying to deny it. Especially that last one about manual transmissions. There should NEVER be a manual transmission more expensive than any auto, there's just NO REASON! :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :tdn: :tdn:


Manuals are pointless now, its true. I did not, however say that there is no reason to have one. All cars (at least in the US) have enough power and torque that an automatic will keep it in the power-band well enough for everyday driving, which used to be the main argument against automatics among others. I did say that they are only for fun, which I completely stand by. The only uses for them now for an average person are in sports cars and offroading (and semi trucks perhaps, but that doesn't really apply to the average person as it is for work), otherwise known as fun activities.

When this theory is applied to paintball (albeit it isn't the best example by any means), it means to me that the mechs and electros now have become so good and reliable that the only reason you would use a pump is to enjoy the extra thrill of being at a mechanical disadvantage. Nobody uses a pump thinking that it gives them an advantage. In fact, it is quite the opposite. I know that I personally play pump to be at a mechanical disadvantage so as to challenge myself more than I otherwise would. So unless you have other reasons for using a pump I don't understand your point...

Edit- I've seen the light
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Edited by o-baller, 29 October 2012 - 04:58 PM.

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#70 drg

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Posted 30 October 2012 - 12:35 AM

Edit- I've seen the light


I hope you have ... it's kind of sad how you kept going on and on trying to salvage being completely wrong.

Edited by drg, 30 October 2012 - 12:38 AM.

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#71 o-baller

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Posted 30 October 2012 - 05:23 AM

Edit- I've seen the light


I hope you have ... it's kind of sad how you kept going on and on trying to salvage being completely wrong.


Once again, I could say word for word the same to you sir. I guess we'll have to agree to disagree.

And for reference, you have once again taken a post of mine out of context, unless the image I posted under the comment was invisible. You could write for O'Reilly or Maher with that skill set.

Edited by o-baller, 30 October 2012 - 05:26 AM.

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#72 drg

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Posted 30 October 2012 - 02:11 PM

Once again, I could say word for word the same to you sir.


You'd be wrong, like you have been the entire time. Bottom line is saying there's no reason to make high quality pumps and no justification for pump costs is silly, and just about everyone but you knows it.

Edited by drg, 30 October 2012 - 02:13 PM.

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#73 o-baller

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Posted 30 October 2012 - 07:38 PM

Once again, I could say word for word the same to you sir.


You'd be wrong, like you have been the entire time. Bottom line is saying there's no reason to make high quality pumps and no justification for pump costs is silly, and just about everyone but you knows it.


That post explains why you and I disagree. You appear to have misunderstood me the whole time. The reason to make these pumps for companies is because there is a market. I like them, everyone in this section likes them. That was not my point. My point was that the only reason to buy a pump of such quality instead of a similarly priced electro is because you enjoy playing pump. Nowhere did I say either that pumps that cost $6-700 dollars are not worth their cost.

Have you even read anything that I have written? You appear to not even attempt to understand what I feel that I have said in multiple posts about this. I thought that I was very clear about the reason for making high quality pumps. So I'll say once again, the biggest (and in my opinion the only) reason to buy any pump, regardless of price, is because you enjoy playing pump.

If you have to ask why a pump is worth $600 bucks, then you should simply not buy it as you don't understand what playing pump is about. This is what I was referring to in my original post, when the guy asked if the revolution was worth the price increase over a phantom. I realize that it actually has higher production costs than a phantom, that much is clear to anyone with half a brain. So just stop with saying that. So, everything in your post is wrong, like it has been the entire time.

And in case you haven't noticed, nobody gives a shit what you or I think... and everybody but you knows it.

Edited by o-baller, 30 October 2012 - 07:40 PM.

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#74 riddler

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Posted 31 October 2012 - 10:49 AM

internet arguments are silly.

paintball is just a hobby - enjoy your hobby however you want.

pump is not "outdated" - it's just another way to play the game. if mechanical disadvantage is fun for you, have at it!

monetary (or retail) value has no correlation with rate of fire, or fun. if you like $100 guns, great; if you prefer to spend a bit more for something you find to be a bit more polished, wonderful - have at it. collect what you want, shoot what you want. there's no need to justify your interests to anyone else.

different strokes for different folks and all that - as long as it shoots paint and you're having fun. do what's fun for you and live and let live, yo.

Edited by riddler, 31 October 2012 - 11:04 AM.


#75 The-Phantom

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Posted 17 November 2012 - 10:47 AM

sooo uhhh....

*awkward segway*
Posted Image

how bout that phantom revolution eh?! I heard it's going to be put into the MQ pump category and banned at some tournaments that don't allow MQ pumps

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#76 drg

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Posted 19 November 2012 - 05:53 PM

how bout that phantom revolution eh?! I heard it's going to be put into the MQ pump category and banned at some tournaments that don't allow MQ pumps


lame.

which tournaments are those btw?
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#77 misterkyle

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Posted 20 November 2012 - 12:16 AM


About yourself. You keep making my point over and over, then trying to deny it. Especially that last one about manual transmissions. There should NEVER be a manual transmission more expensive than any auto, there's just NO REASON! :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :tdn: :tdn:


Manuals are pointless now, its true. I did not, however say that there is no reason to have one. All cars (at least in the US) have enough power and torque that an automatic will keep it in the power-band well enough for everyday driving, which used to be the main argument against automatics among others. I did say that they are only for fun, which I completely stand by. The only uses for them now for an average person are in sports cars and offroading (and semi trucks perhaps, but that doesn't really apply to the average person as it is for work), otherwise known as fun activities.


:lol: silly boy, manuals make driving fun :rolleyes:

Edited by misterkyle, 20 November 2012 - 12:18 AM.


#78 Pump Player

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Posted 20 November 2012 - 12:43 AM

that moment when you realize you started a paintball forum that ended in a debate about car transmissions.

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#79 madsnipes

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Posted 21 November 2012 - 05:42 PM

that moment when you realize you started a paintball forum that ended in a debate about car transmissions.


lol ya
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