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Dwell and shot quality


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#1 FCpaintballer

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Posted 29 October 2012 - 08:43 PM

I was watching Boss Paintball Products video for the boss bolt V2 setup in the Empire Axe and I noticed that to get a shot that was easier on paint and subsequently smoother he lowered the regulator pressure and lowered the dwell to 4 milliseconds. It would make more sense to me to lower the regulator pressure and raise the dwell, that way the gun compensates for the lower pressure by taking a longer time to channel the air through the solenoid and into the bolt. So basically slower moving air but more of it in order to maintain a velocity of 280 FPS. Could someone explain to me the correlation (if there is one) between dwell setting and shot quality and how higher or lower dwell makes for a smoother shot? Thank you.

#2 tyronejk

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Posted 29 October 2012 - 08:53 PM

According to the manual for the Shocker Eigenbolt, increasing dwell and lowering pressure for the Shocker will give you a smoother shot. I'm not 100% sure, but I think Axe's and Mini's have two different dwells: forward and backward or something. Boss could've been lowering the backward/something dwell.

#3 cybermaniac15

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Posted 29 October 2012 - 08:55 PM

It really just depends on the gun. With the eigenring you lower the dwell, eigenbolt you raise it.

#4 Demon

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Posted 29 October 2012 - 10:51 PM

cyber you drop the dwell for the eigenbolt.

and tyrone no gun has ever had forward dwell and reverse dwell or whatever you are trying to say there.

the thing you are failing to take into account OP is the reduced mass of the bolt which takes less air to move it and results in a higher FPS that's why when you put it in the FPS jumps 30 fps or so, then you drop the regulator pressure to get it to field velocity, because the bolt is lighter and moving faster now you don't need the excess dwell time so you can lower that for higher efficiency but if you raise the dwell you can lower your pressure some and it will allow for a smoother shot.

the easiest way to explain dwell to new people is "higher dwell = smoother and quieter, lower dwell = rougher and more efficient" but if you lower it too much the gun won't cycle reliably and if you raise it too much it will start wasting air and you will have horrible efficiency.

i hope that makes sense, if you don't understand the general workings of how a marker operates together with all it's pieces to propel a ball it is harder to explain.

Edited by Demon, 29 October 2012 - 10:53 PM.

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#5 drg

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Posted 30 October 2012 - 01:01 AM

How do you quantify "shot quality"?
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#6 FCpaintballer

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Posted 30 October 2012 - 09:17 AM

Thank you Demon, that clarified things for me. By shot quality I mean how "smooth" the gun shoots and how quiet it is.

#7 cockerpunk

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Posted 30 October 2012 - 01:10 PM

what is shot quality?
The ultimate truth in paintball is that the interaction between the gun and the player is far and away the largest factor in accuracy, consistency, and reliability.

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#8 LV Backpacker

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Posted 30 October 2012 - 01:11 PM

According to the manual for the Shocker Eigenbolt, increasing dwell and lowering pressure for the Shocker will give you a smoother shot. I'm not 100% sure, but I think Axe's and Mini's have two different dwells: forward and backward or something. Boss could've been lowering the backward/something dwell.

You have a Shocker Eigenbolt? :o

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#9 brycelarson

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Posted 30 October 2012 - 01:28 PM

How do you quantify "shot quality"?



what is shot quality?


mee too want to know!

#10 drg

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Posted 30 October 2012 - 02:17 PM

Starting to think it's the new accuracy ...
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#11 cockerpunk

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Posted 30 October 2012 - 02:28 PM

for references, please point to me the feature or dynamic that is "shot quality"

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Edited by cockerpunk, 30 October 2012 - 02:28 PM.

The ultimate truth in paintball is that the interaction between the gun and the player is far and away the largest factor in accuracy, consistency, and reliability.

And yes, Gordon is the sexiest manifestation of "to the front."


#12 Demon

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Posted 30 October 2012 - 04:49 PM

you guys did see that he changed his statement from "shot quality" to "smoothness and quietness" right?

lets get off the confused non science oriented kid, i mean shit he is only 11 posts in.

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#13 FCpaintballer

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Posted 30 October 2012 - 05:27 PM

Is shot quality a phrase that is frowned upon? I'm sorry if I said something illegitimate or non applicable to paintball. Please inform me as to what I should have said.

#14 tyronejk

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Posted 30 October 2012 - 06:53 PM

...
and tyrone no gun has ever had forward dwell and reverse dwell or whatever you are trying to say there.
...

Duh hello?
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#15 tyronejk

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Posted 30 October 2012 - 07:05 PM

for references, please point to me the feature or dynamic that is "shot quality"
...

Possibly maximum range of acceleration? That would put the "shot quality" ranking from best to worst: Shocker, PMR, SLS.

#16 drg

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Posted 31 October 2012 - 01:17 AM

Is shot quality a phrase that is frowned upon? I'm sorry if I said something illegitimate or non applicable to paintball. Please inform me as to what I should have said.


Anything unquantifiable is of limited value to a science-focused forum. You need to propose a means of quantifying whatever you would like to test.
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#17 Demon

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Posted 31 October 2012 - 04:24 AM


...
and tyrone no gun has ever had forward dwell and reverse dwell or whatever you are trying to say there.
...

Duh hello?
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here's the manual, i have read it before, and multiple times and i checked again for this. find multiple dwell settings because i sure as hell can't.

http://www.paintball...mini_manual.pdf

heres the shockwave manual too. you can try here if you want, maybe i missed something.

http://www.paintball...nstructions.pdf

also if anyone is confused they pretty much repeat my explanation of dwell almost verbatim in the shockwave manual.

in other words. the manufacturer has NO mention of two dwell settings. and facebook is not a legitimate source for information, now there are such things as a mechanical dwell control dealing with springs etc affecting your dwell, but what we are discussing here is board dwell settings. now if you would care to share with me what you think you are talking about feel free to go ahead, because atm i have absolutely no fucking clue what you are going on about.

and this is horribly irrelevent to this discussion but apparently this is what you want to site, this is the lurker eigenbolt manual for the axe/mini. find multiple dwell settings here http://www.lurkerpb..../minimanual.pdf

and the shocker one, just because i want to pack it on.

http://www.lurkerpb....rboltmanual.pdf

big hint, try reading the manual before you try and act like someone else is an idiot.

Edited by Demon, 31 October 2012 - 04:29 AM.

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#18 Demon

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Posted 31 October 2012 - 04:31 AM

for anyone wondering, it is 4:30 am, i am tired and pissed off and when i get pissed off i get very thorough in telling someone off.

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#19 Troy

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Posted 31 October 2012 - 09:10 AM

for anyone wondering, it is 4:30 am, i am tired and pissed off and when i get pissed off i get very thorough in telling someone off.


I have a rule, I never debate someone past 10:00PM or when I'm drunk... I tend to say stupid things. I'm not saying that you said anything stupid, but it's pretty clear that we don't think the same way late at night. :lol:
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#20 Eskimo

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Posted 31 October 2012 - 10:18 AM

for references, please point to me the feature or dynamic that is "shot quality"



Its the second graph will all the science on it. You can see how in the middle there is alot of science. and then less science.

the average of all the science is shot quality


I think a better Direction to describe it is

Lets say a paintball has a specific force "X" to break it, if the force applied on the ball reaches or exceeds "X" the ball will rupture/break/implode/divide by zero

So as we approach the force X, the ball undergoes more "shit going on in a small time"
The least chance of breaking a ball, would be the highest "Quality" (Its still a horrible name to use) or the lower you can make the force on the ball, while still maintaining a good velocity the better.

Now of course this gets into a gigantic mess of random factors'n shit and other things. But Is this what your getting at OP?

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#21 Demon

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Posted 31 October 2012 - 11:55 AM

eskimo you are on the right track but i think the OP is more regarding to making the "recoil" "vibration" and sound signature better,

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#22 tyronejk

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Posted 31 October 2012 - 12:55 PM



...
and tyrone no gun has ever had forward dwell and reverse dwell or whatever you are trying to say there.
...

Duh hello?
...

here's the manual, i have read it before, and multiple times and i checked again for this. find multiple dwell settings because i sure as hell can't.

http://www.paintball...mini_manual.pdf

heres the shockwave manual too. you can try here if you want, maybe i missed something.

http://www.paintball...nstructions.pdf

also if anyone is confused they pretty much repeat my explanation of dwell almost verbatim in the shockwave manual.

in other words. the manufacturer has NO mention of two dwell settings. and facebook is not a legitimate source for information, now there are such things as a mechanical dwell control dealing with springs etc affecting your dwell, but what we are discussing here is board dwell settings. now if you would care to share with me what you think you are talking about feel free to go ahead, because atm i have absolutely no fucking clue what you are going on about.

and this is horribly irrelevent to this discussion but apparently this is what you want to site, this is the lurker eigenbolt manual for the axe/mini. find multiple dwell settings here http://www.lurkerpb..../minimanual.pdf

and the shocker one, just because i want to pack it on.

http://www.lurkerpb....rboltmanual.pdf

big hint, try reading the manual before you try and act like someone else is an idiot.

Here's a hint as large as your mother's ass:
Maybe not dismiss something you don't know so quickly.
http://paintballgunm...mini-manual.pdf
Hint: "Dwell" and "closing dwell" are mentioned on every damn page.

#23 FCpaintballer

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Posted 31 October 2012 - 03:13 PM

So basically what determines the smoothness of a shot is the amount of time it takes to accelerate the paintball from 0 to 280 FPS? The longer it takes, the smoother the shot and vice versa. So therefore having a longer dwell time would create a smoother shot. Kind off like a car's frame in a crash, only with acceleration instead of deceleration. An older style car with a more rigid construction would decelerate faster in a shorter space of time, obviously causing more damage to whoever was inside. On newer model cars however, they are equipped with crumple points so that when the car strikes and object it experiences a slower deceleration over a longer period of time. Am I getting at the right idea with that comparison? Also I now realize that "shot quality" is hard to quantify because it is a factor mainly based on personal preference, some people might like the shot of a Vanguard Demon over the shot of the Luxe. So in their opinion the Demon would have better shot quality. I'm sorry for being rather ambiguous with my wording in my original post.

#24 Demon

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Posted 31 October 2012 - 06:23 PM

FC you are on the right track and i think you have your answer? or is something else confusing you?

and tyrone, the virtue board is the only board on the market with "closing dwell" and that is only for the invert mini, the closing dwell is simply them splitting the dwell setting into two to allow more control but it doesn't do anything. to explain to someone who doesn't know what dwell is that is completely irrelevent and it doesn't even matter because dwell is simply the time the solenoid is activated. you are adjusting the same goddamn setting, the stock boards do it in one programming but all you are doing with "closing dwell" is pretending you are adding more options for the user when in reality it is the same fucking thing.

for you to possibly understand that ALL guns have only one setting dwell, that is the time the solenoid is activated for it to do it's work of propelling the bolt etc. virtue just adds "another setting" but it is only dwell. they simply broke the dwell settings into two to help them justify someone needing a new board "for more settings" all you are going to do by bringing up the virtue board is confuse FCpaintballer.

every gun requires power to the solenoid in both directions to operate OTHERWISE NOTHING MOVES. i cannot dumb this down any further you obviously can't understand virtue is just coming up with something to say they are better, you need to understand the workings of the marker to see that dwell is the same thing, it doesn't matter what the bolt is doing, dwell is simply an ammount of time.

Edited by Demon, 31 October 2012 - 06:25 PM.

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#25 Snipez4664

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Posted 31 October 2012 - 10:30 PM

every gun requires power to the solenoid in both directions to operate OTHERWISE NOTHING MOVES. i cannot dumb this down any further you obviously can't understand virtue is just coming up with something to say they are better, you need to understand the workings of the marker to see that dwell is the same thing, it doesn't matter what the bolt is doing, dwell is simply an ammount of time.


Most are only single polarity - the mini uses a specifically designed noid that is low cost, but high quality and functions using some very interesting magnetic circuit stuff.



I tend to think of dwell as a gate opening (it isn't 1:1 with the actual valve, but directionally it's the same.)

So, you need some AMOUNT (mass flow) of air to move your bolt or whatever, right?


So, when you have longer to deliver the amount (more dwell), then at any given time you don't have to be flowing AS MUCH air to get to that volume or mass in the longer dwell period. This translates into lower LPR pressures. With less pressure at the noid (because we're running a lower dwell) you are decreasing the volume flow, and because it can't fill the space behind a ramas quickly, the assembly accelerates more slowly and with less jerkiness. That's why the Intimidator Eigenrams have added 2ms of dwell in the manual since 2006.


Shocker Eigenbolts are a bit different - they're actually pretty dwell insensitive, but since it vents the "spool/ram" section of the bolt, it saves air to not overdwell it.

Eigenrings are very complicated to explain, but basically the ring keeps the chamber pressure high, which keeps the forward biased force on the bolt higher longer. By not holding the bolt forward, you're able to save more air in the chamber than you can otherwise, because the bolt's actuation is crisper.


With the mini, the open dwell (basically the amount of time air is flowing) will help move the bolt and degas the area behind the poppet. really overdwelled settings along with velo adjuster settings over 1.5 turns out from all the way in will result is terrible efficiency because the poppet will be trying to close by flowing through the bleed hole, but the noid is not letting the closing pressure build. A minimized dwell and a backcap of 1 to 1.25 turns will result is really excellent efficiency with the eigenbolt.
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#26 Troy

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Posted 01 November 2012 - 06:04 AM

Eigenrings are very complicated to explain, but basically the ring keeps the chamber pressure high, which keeps the forward biased force on the bolt higher longer. By not holding the bolt forward, you're able to save more air in the chamber than you can otherwise, because the bolt's actuation is crisper.


If you have time, I would like more explanation then that. I understand that as the chamber is venting, it creates a vacuum on one side of the Eigenring and pulls it to the back cap. I can understand how that would work as a way to cut off some of the air flow towards the end of the bolt's cycle (which was unneeded), but I don't understand how the ring keeps the pressure in the chamber higher during the shot. It seems to me, that as the ring moves, pressures on both sides will stay more or less the same, therefore, if pressures are the same, then, the output pressure of the bolt's chamber should be the same as well. If anything, I would think that the pressure on the side facing the back cap would be lower then the other side, because, it's dragging across the top hat in a race to equalize and it can't move at the exact speed necessary to equalize do to the force of friction exerted on the interior o-ring.

I'm, fairly, certain that you know this, and I'm missing something... obviously, I would like to know where I'm wrong.
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#27 Snipez4664

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Posted 01 November 2012 - 07:39 PM

You kind of have to think about it in discretized steps for it to make sense. Imagine infinitely small time steps or motion steps

1. valve begins venting
2. pressure due to venting causes a pressure difference due to the ring being a large restriction
3. pressure difference causes the ring to move towards the backcap in an attempt to equalize - forget the leakby in the ring as it's not significant at the timescale of the shot itself
This motion can be though of best as an energy gradient - the air behind the ring wants to get out, but it instead drives the ring backwards, which shrinks the volume of the main chamber, and essentially dumps the energy behind the sail back into the chamber air by piston action.


Because of the in the system that drives this action, the pressure should stay higher than it otherwise would, and then drop much more quickly due to the decreased final volume.


I don't know how much of this is accurate, but I've run through it with some very smart people and I have a lot of at least anecdotal data confirming that this TYPE of effect must exist (not just efficiency, but claims of drop in velocity INCREASE, as well as the ability to lower dwell after drop in, which jives with more average forward bias force from the fuse bolt geometry)
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#28 Troy

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    What... is the air-speed velocity of an unladen swallow?

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Posted 01 November 2012 - 10:08 PM

That makes more sense. My problem was visualizing the ring being pulled by the vacuum as opposed to it being pushed by the air behind it.

After using it in my DM, I knew it worked... I just wasn't, exactly, sure why it did.
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#29 tallsmallboy44

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Posted 02 November 2012 - 08:39 PM

There is WAY too much science going on in here for me to comprehend...

fuck yolo
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