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#351 J4 Paintball

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Posted 13 October 2013 - 08:13 PM

 

 

If they take out the divot and make it shorter, it will look great.

 

There will be a little bit there - it also will be a little bit shorter. Mind you, we still have to fit a reg in there! Ha! But as just tweaking the cosmetic of it a bit, since they are last. 



#352 Klub

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Posted 13 October 2013 - 08:50 PM

Can't wait. This is going to be one of the few guns I'll buy new. 



#353 Simiballer

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Posted 14 October 2013 - 09:34 AM

I really like the design of the gun, I honestly wouldn't suggest any changes because the more changes you make,the more it starts to look like all the other guns out there. That being said, I'm not going to pick this one up, as I don't have nearly enough money for this one haha. However, if you want to make my Christmas and donate a gun to an aspiring high school player, I would be obliged to accept :).
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#354 Sydarm

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Posted 18 October 2013 - 11:40 AM

Got to fire this at cup. Shoots nice and love the design. Want...

#355 J4 Paintball

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Posted 22 October 2013 - 11:23 AM

Video from week before Cup:

 

http://www.youtube.c...d&v=zyb7x6dGu1E



#356 Sydarm

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Posted 22 October 2013 - 04:24 PM

The prototype(s) at Cup had what looked like a delrin/composite awkward trigger.

 

Will this be shipping with a decent bearing trigger?



#357 andrewthewookie

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Posted 22 October 2013 - 04:29 PM

The trigger material doesn't have an effect on whether it uses bearings or not.


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#358 Sydarm

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Posted 22 October 2013 - 05:51 PM

I agree (my violent trigger is as such)...but the J4's trigger really seemed crude and temporary if you were there to see/shoot it. He was swamped with other ppl asking questions by the time I shot it so I didn't get to ask how it should come out...ie hopefully not like the DM14 trigger.

Edited by Sydarm, 22 October 2013 - 05:58 PM.


#359 J4 Paintball

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Posted 24 October 2013 - 10:39 AM

The triggers were quick printed trigger (low resolution, extruder 3D printer) though they had dual ball bearings. The final triggers aluminum (already made) will also have the dual ball bearing. The aluminum blanks were were at the event also, sorry - swamped was an understatement, but next time call me out! I can normally take a few, I brought lots of minions this last time. :)  



#360 Groundfire

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Posted 24 October 2013 - 11:01 AM

I shot this thing. 

It shoots amazing. Granted, the one I shot was a prototype and it needed to be ran through crono. It shoot too low.



#361 J4 Paintball

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Posted 24 October 2013 - 11:14 AM

 

 

 It shoot too low.

 

Did you fire paint? We had one with a bad reg spring, and it ran at 260... the ones at Cup were 275-280, but I know one of the guns shown 2 weeks before was running under that. 

The feel is like it is not shooting high enough - but it is. First time we shot the prototypes we though something was wrong. There was a leak that was louder then the gun. Had us all confused. :)



#362 Groundfire

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Posted 24 October 2013 - 03:45 PM

I shot one at PB Explosion.



#363 Irish725

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Posted 24 October 2013 - 06:24 PM

J4, you guys going to be coming back to Living Legends next year? I'd love to see one of your completed guns there, I putzed with the empty frame one last year and it seemed awesome!

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#364 J4 Paintball

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Posted 25 October 2013 - 02:19 PM

 

 

J4, you guys going to be coming back to Living Legends next year?

YES. Legends was EP-IC. Rabbit and I made it our goal to hold the 50 on the final game, some of the most fun I have had. Looking to do it again next year. 



#365 TechPB-Willie

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Posted 25 October 2013 - 03:19 PM

 

 

 

J4, you guys going to be coming back to Living Legends next year?

YES. Legends was EP-IC. Rabbit and I made it our goal to hold the 50 on the final game, some of the most fun I have had. Looking to do it again next year. 

 

 

That is great to hear!! Look forward to seeing you at Legends next year!



#366 Irish725

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Posted 25 October 2013 - 08:03 PM

Wonderful! I look forward to thoroughly molest your sexy marker at least a little bit whilst I'm there if you guys have a tent!

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#367 Eskimo

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Posted 30 October 2013 - 08:40 PM

Okay, Topic I must bring up,
Somewhere down the intrenets grape vine someone said that the company you chose to machine the marker bodies has had some tolerance issues so far. (little, niggly things, not Gigantic gaping holes by any means)

First off, is the grapevine any truthful (its cool to say it is )
Second: whats the action plan


Third: I still Want one :)

touching the marker last year at legends made me feel like I somehow saw the birth of something awesome, Can't wait to see it again...and throw money at you
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Edited by Eskimo, 30 October 2013 - 08:42 PM.

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#368 J4 Paintball

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Posted 01 November 2013 - 11:04 AM

 

 

Okay, Topic I must bring up,
Somewhere down the intrenets grape vine someone said that the company you chose to machine the marker bodies has had some tolerance issues so far. (little, niggly things, not Gigantic gaping holes by any means)

First off, is the grapevine any truthful (its cool to say it is )
Second: whats the action plan

 

Very good question, and definitely one of the rumors rolling around. So lets get this straight:

 

The company that is milling the markers is made up of two guys who were involved in the Vanguard project, yes. They were brought in at the end to dial in that project. They were not the ones who did the CAD work, or the initial bodies, nor did they have much say in the process. In the end they both said the project was being rushed to market before it was dialed in. Which it was for the most part. The Demon is a great gun, but just a few degrees from being perfect. One of the best platforms right now - it just needs finalizing. 

 

While Tolerance could be seen as the issue, the problem really was the design work, and the timeline of the project, and constraints put on them from the management of the process. I know, I have held the previous parts in my hand from both of those guns, plus looked at the CAD files, and talked to everyone evolved. A crucial part was the initial CAD was not dialed in perfectly. In addition, they were limited in the machines they could run the parts on, and were not able to affect much change. They know what they would have done differently. And so they have, in setting up ValveFlow, a different and separate company they formed after Vanguard.

They brought in new, smaller more agile machines better suited for paintball gun parts and their tolerance, not as in one case, building custom rims for high performance race cars. They are also setup for production, with barfeeds, with Active Head lathes and related. So, this is being ran on all new to the process machines. Finishing will be mechanical, not hand polished, small parts will go through one process on one machine in some cases, with 500 being dropped off the machine in 1 night, done, ready for a tumbler, then anodizing. 

 

Also in this case I worked direct with them to simplify parts and the design for production, talking to the guys about the best process, and the simplest manner to setup the parts. With one having worked with Jack Wood years ago making parts, and even putting his own gun out almost 15 years ago plus having patents for balanced poppets and regulators and some other paintball parts under his wing, and the other having experience making parts for Rolls Royce Turbines and several industries, (including the race car wheels) plus excellent CAD skills, it seems stupid for the designer to dictate the best way to do this project. With all of us sitting in a room working on the project it really is a dynamic batch of experience. They said the last 2 week stint I did there was equal to months of work on the Vanguard project. 

Being flexible on my side, working with the machinists, working to come out with a better process for production, planning better machines to run the parts and picking them up just to do this makes this a far different project then the Vanguard one, and even most guns on the market. The only common bits are a couple of the minds, and 1 machine. The process is so different, and so focused on the design and production of paintball guns that it really is a beast of an altogether new sort. 

In the end the project has taken far longer then we expected because we didn't try and rush this to market. We are making sure the project is ready to go when we go to market. I have my design end, my perfectionist, engineering type side that wants to constantly improve. On the other side are two guys who know a good chunk reining me in. 

This dynamic is good. The end result has been the work of 3 experience minds focused on doing it right, not quick, not limited by management, not told to put it to market before it might be ready. I get to say when, not marketing. Also as the head of this, the designer running the business instead of a sales guy, or the investor or management of a large company, or just a player, the result is far different then normal. Looking at this, it really should have been far longer. I know of several projects that took 2-3 years to go to market, that with large companies and literally millions of dollar spent. That we did this in the timeline we did and a far smaller budget has been a bit of a feat. 

Hope that answers your question! Feel free to ask if you want anything more detailed. 

 



#369 Eskimo

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Posted 01 November 2013 - 01:59 PM

Appreciate the timly response :)
Good to hear.

there will be plenty of questions in time.


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#370 J4 Paintball

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Posted 01 November 2013 - 02:30 PM

For example:

563068_568085196598391_1972908652_n.jpg

 

1235515_568085153265062_1046254477_n.jpg

 

935115_568085163265061_1299787142_n.jpg



#371 BurningPlaydoh

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Posted 01 November 2013 - 07:34 PM

Machined parts make me moist.

#372 J4 Paintball

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Posted 03 November 2013 - 04:21 PM

 

 

Machined parts make me...

 

Did you see the fixture?

 

1401809_567783156628595_211193656_o.jpg



#373 get.lit.up!

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Posted 03 November 2013 - 07:08 PM

Hmmm a buddy of mine is preordered one, I guess I know what i'm going to need to do


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#374 renie

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Posted 10 November 2013 - 02:42 PM

I love the way Crappy machinists blame CAD files!!

the problem with the Vanguards was the machining did you eve see a raw one??  they looked like they were made with an axe!

 

Really liking the potential of the Marker would of thought you would of hade in American made though tbh..



#375 J4 Paintball

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Posted 12 November 2013 - 04:04 PM

Hmm - yeah, did see the raw ones. 

 

And the raw CAD. 

Did you see the reg we just did, off of one of the same machines? Making smart CAD means we cut the time down to 21 minutes total run time for the reg, with a better surface then 45 minutes just for surfacing.

There has to be good CAD to make for easy clean machining.  

560093_573637732709804_821895680_n.jpg

 

The raw bodies, done 4 months ago, without a proper production fixture look like this:

 

920941_487280794678832_2089803082_o.jpg

 

With the new radiusing and some changes to the program it comes off just needing a light tumble to get it finished. 

 

I would hazard to say good CAD, designed to work with the machining process, produces a far better result then bad CAD. 

 



#376 unfated33

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Posted 12 November 2013 - 05:43 PM

Always invest more in design time to make the overall development process go better.  In engineering school they taught that 60%+ of your total labor budget should go towards design.  It looks like your efforts paid off - that reg looks great! (It looks like maybe it will have bottom adjustment?)


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#377 J4 Paintball

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Posted 13 November 2013 - 09:13 AM

Adjustment is from the bottom - it is a moving base adjustment, and the reg is just a single moving base design. Very compact, but it also extends into the grip some. 

 

From here: http://www.zdspb.com...isc/maxflo.html  (Thanks Ydna for the goto page on these)

 

Here is a side shot of the reg - no o-rings were in at the time I did it. 

 

1465282_573964952677082_1090817097_n.png


Edited by J4 Paintball, 13 November 2013 - 09:15 AM.


#378 III Kezia III

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Posted 13 November 2013 - 03:32 PM

Adjustment is from the bottom - it is a moving base adjustment, and the reg is just a single moving base design. Very compact, but it also extends into the grip some. 

 

From here: http://www.zdspb.com...isc/maxflo.html  (Thanks Ydna for the goto page on these)

 

Here is a side shot of the reg - no o-rings were in at the time I did it. 

 

1465282_573964952677082_1090817097_n.png

im assuming that we wont be able to move the asa/reg back or fourth on the marker? not that its a big deal or anything.


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#379 J4 Paintball

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Posted 13 November 2013 - 04:01 PM

We will have a little drop forward/drop back part in the near future that will drop on. Should shift it a bit each way. 



#380 andrewthewookie

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Posted 13 November 2013 - 07:27 PM

At first I was sad that the new design had the top of the reg sleeve and piston protruding out the top of the ASA into the frame, but then I got hopeful with news of the asa rail.

 

Maybe my projects can live after all.

 

Cause the only other people with decent asa regs won't sell me any, *cough* alien/zodiac *cough*


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#381 J4 Paintball

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Posted 14 November 2013 - 09:09 AM

Andrew,

 

You would need an adapter anyways because of the screw pattern, so just adjust for that and you should be good. 



#382 andrewthewookie

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Posted 14 November 2013 - 11:42 AM

Yeah, I've seen the offset screws, I originally figured I'd just drill the screw holes to fit it. Adapter or not, I'm determined to make something work no matter what, lol.


Edited by andrewthewookie, 14 November 2013 - 11:43 AM.

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#383 renie

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Posted 15 November 2013 - 03:25 PM

Did you see the reg we just did, off of one of the same machines? Making smart CAD means we cut the time down to 21 minutes total run time for the reg, with a better surface then 45 minutes just for surfacing.
 

 

That Asa is completely different to the 1st design its all 2d milling of course it will be quicker,

 what software are your machinist using? as that make a big to quality machining, some softwares don't have all the features to most out of the machine.

We use Delcam and its fantastic, has the best tool strategies i've seen on milling software.

Oh and I make for Formula 1 parts :)



#384 J4 Paintball

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Posted 18 November 2013 - 01:21 PM

They are using mastercam, but did just get an upgraded version. I also did things like make the radiusing larger then 6mm over most of it, (10 and 12mm at some point) so we can use a large tool to clean it up easy. I did have him try some different tool strategies also, so the end result will need far less clean up. 

 

Same machines, same machinists but forethought on the CAD and working with them produces much different results. 



#385 J4 Paintball

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Posted 16 January 2014 - 01:32 PM

Since we left this off on machining, here is the final operation series of the gun. Everything else is done, just doing the surface body milling. And here is the first 10 minutes with the large ball end:
1523772_606733109400266_1773193887_o.jpg


Edited by J4 Paintball, 16 January 2014 - 01:40 PM.


#386 unfated33

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Posted 16 January 2014 - 01:38 PM

So...if you are using a whole piece raw body for the stacked tubes, what tool are you using to separate it apart later?


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#387 J4 Paintball

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Posted 16 January 2014 - 01:40 PM

Ah - other way around. There are actually three parts there. The Body Top, Body Bottom, and the front plug. All are machined together so they have a fairly seem-less fit. :)



#388 unfated33

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Posted 16 January 2014 - 01:57 PM

That's three separate pieces all being milled as a single unit?  Before, you had my curiosity...

 

(edit: can't get a quote right to save my life)


Edited by unfated33, 16 January 2014 - 04:24 PM.

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#389 J4 Paintball

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Posted 16 January 2014 - 02:01 PM

We felt it would help make the seam in the body almost un-noticeable, something we felt might have been a cosmetic issue for some.  



#390 get.lit.up!

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Posted 18 January 2014 - 07:51 AM

While all this is happening I'm waiting for the diesel lol
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#391 J4 Paintball

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Posted 20 January 2014 - 12:24 PM

Since you guys seem to like the machine pics, today we will be posting up the last as we kick into the last operations. Here is the start. This was the last op we needed on the grip, the rear panel. Unfortunately the mills went down right when we were at this point. Here you go:

 

1599337_608747319198845_642236270_o.jpg


Edited by J4 Paintball, 20 January 2014 - 12:26 PM.


#392 andrewthewookie

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Posted 20 January 2014 - 07:45 PM

I like pictures.


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#393 unfated33

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Posted 20 January 2014 - 07:59 PM

I like pictures.

:)

 

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Edited by unfated33, 20 January 2014 - 08:00 PM.

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