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First strike rifled barrel test


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#1 brycelarson

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Posted 14 March 2013 - 07:44 PM

https://docs.google....ZkE&usp=sharing

rifled. barrels. are. awesome. with. first. strikes.

75' Tib 9.1. Stock 9", Lapco 9", Tib rifled 9", Lapco 16", Tib 16" rifled, Hammerhead 14" rifled.

Edited by brycelarson, 15 March 2013 - 10:47 AM.


#2 UV Halo

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Posted 14 March 2013 - 07:48 PM

First and Kickass Work!!!

#3 andrewthewookie

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Posted 14 March 2013 - 07:50 PM

Holy crap. Time to get me a rifled barrel.

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#4 UV Halo

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Posted 14 March 2013 - 08:05 PM

First, I'm very surprised that the Hammerhead performed so well.

Bryce, do you think there was a statistical difference between the LAPCO short and long rifled, or is that in the noise?

I'm statistics illiterate, how do I interpret the CI?

Can you confirm if the hammerhead has significantly less fouling than the LAPCO (A silicone squeegie should aid this)? If so, this makes the Hammerhead a clear winner here.

#5 cockerpunk

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Posted 14 March 2013 - 08:08 PM

this makes sense given our testing vs a paintball, where at 50 feet paintballs were not that much worse then first strikes, but at 100+ there was a huge difference. this points to the accuracy errors in first-strikes being early in there flight.

it seems pre-spinning them really does help.
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#6 brycelarson

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Posted 14 March 2013 - 08:11 PM

I didn't shoot enough rounds from each to determine if the fouling is different. I will say that the hammerhead chronoed almost 100 fps faster than the LAPCO 16" rifled. So while accuracy seems close - the hammerhead kills in efficiency. Additionally the hammerhead was much quieter. This may be just due to the gun being set much lower or it may be part of the barrel design.

Confidence interval tells you based on the sample size what the actual range might be. In other words - we're confident that the data is inside that range.

#7 UV Halo

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Posted 14 March 2013 - 08:17 PM

this makes sense given our testing vs a paintball, where at 50 feet paintballs were not that much worse then first strikes, but at 100+ there was a huge difference. this points to the accuracy errors in first-strikes being early in there flight.

it seems pre-spinning them really does help.


I agree and I must point out- when you look at your 100' and 150' data FS rounds appear to deviate in a closely linear manner so, these rounds should most likely remain just as accurate downrange (scaling spread for distance).

I've had a couple ideas why the pre-spinning helps (not in any order):

1. Atmospheric turbulence or cross currents prior to gyro stabilization.
2. Centrifugal effects on the fill while it is in the barrel axis could cause it to spread itself evenly (in a resting state, the fill separates and, in some rounds there are air bubbles) around the equator and stabilizing before it exits the fill.

When myself and Tymcneer (over on MCB) do our dual chrono test, we'll know if pre-spinning effects the ballistic coefficient (which could translate into a range difference).

Edited by UV Halo, 14 March 2013 - 08:19 PM.


#8 andrewthewookie

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Posted 14 March 2013 - 08:27 PM

What's the rifling like on the Hammerhead? Does it match the FS round"s direction/angle at all?

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#9 brycelarson

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Posted 14 March 2013 - 08:32 PM

Here's what a vector of 8.5 v 2.5 looks like:



First set - 16" Lapco smooth bore - 16 shots. Second set - 16" Lapco rifled - 24 shots.

Edited by brycelarson, 15 March 2013 - 10:50 AM.


#10 tymcneer

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Posted 14 March 2013 - 10:54 PM

So, it seems one of the ideas that had been kicking around has proven to be effective. Thank you PunkWorks for taking care of the tedious experimental stuff. I *REALLY* like the data in simple to understand format. It makes my life so much easier :)

Next, we need to cover whether the prespinning changes the ballistic coefficient.

Finally, we need to check out the final pieces to the puzzle to determine if there are ways to shoot even further, without exceeding the 300 FPS limit.

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#11 cockerpunk

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Posted 14 March 2013 - 11:55 PM

So, it seems one of the ideas that had been kicking around has proven to be effective. Thank you PunkWorks for taking care of the tedious experimental stuff. I *REALLY* like the data in simple to understand format. It makes my life so much easier :)

Next, we need to cover whether the prespinning changes the ballistic coefficient.

Finally, we need to check out the final pieces to the puzzle to determine if there are ways to shoot even further, without exceeding the 300 FPS limit.

Ty

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thanks for the support ... kicking around any good ideas?
The ultimate truth in paintball is that the interaction between the gun and the player is far and away the largest factor in accuracy, consistency, and reliability.

And yes, Gordon is the sexiest manifestation of "to the front."


#12 tymcneer

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Posted 15 March 2013 - 01:28 AM

Always... I might even share, once I have them from just a guess and golly and into a more reasonable form.

Did you do the high speed video of a FSR in a glass tube, being suspended via the moving air? If so, conduct that test again, but introduce a small smoke trail to see where we are having low pressure issues. This will prove very insightful.

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#13 Troy

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Posted 15 March 2013 - 11:33 AM

Excuse me while I collect my bottom jaw off the floor... I had no idea that a rifled barrel could impart a significant spin to the round before exiting.

Is there any chance we can get some high speed video of the round coming out of the barrel in both a smooth and rifled bore barrel to confirm this effect, and eliminate some other factors that could be at play that we might not of thought of yet?
\m/

#14 UV Halo

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Posted 15 March 2013 - 12:04 PM

Excuse me while I collect my bottom jaw off the floor... I had no idea that a rifled barrel could impart a significant spin to the round before exiting.

Is there any chance we can get some high speed video of the round coming out of the barrel in both a smooth and rifled bore barrel to confirm this effect, and eliminate some other factors that could be at play that we might not of thought of yet?


I can't reveal my source or share the video but, I've seen HSV that shows the LAPCO/Tiberius rifled barrel imparts a spin greater than what the punkworks smoothbore HSV showed. I pushed for this test just to see if it made a difference and yeah, I was surprised it made that much of a difference.

#15 brycelarson

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Posted 15 March 2013 - 12:51 PM

I can't reveal my source or share the video but, I've seen HSV that shows the LAPCO/Tiberius rifled barrel imparts a spin greater than what the punkworks smoothbore HSV showed. I pushed FUNDED this test just to see if it made a difference and yeah, I was surprised it made that much of a difference.


fixed it for you.

#16 UV Halo

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Posted 15 March 2013 - 01:21 PM


I can't reveal my source or share the video but, I've seen HSV that shows the LAPCO/Tiberius rifled barrel imparts a spin greater than what the punkworks smoothbore HSV showed. I pushed FUNDED this test just to see if it made a difference and yeah, I was surprised it made that much of a difference.


fixed it for you.


I'm sure you guys put some of your own funds and time into this so, I won't say I funded the entirety :P I like to consider this a punkworks operation, after all, I used? to be an adjunct? (I just noticed the 'who is punkworks' thread is gone).

#17 Troy

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Posted 15 March 2013 - 03:05 PM



I can't reveal my source or share the video but, I've seen HSV that shows the LAPCO/Tiberius rifled barrel imparts a spin greater than what the punkworks smoothbore HSV showed. I pushed FUNDED this test just to see if it made a difference and yeah, I was surprised it made that much of a difference.


fixed it for you.


I'm sure you guys put some of your own funds and time into this so, I won't say I funded the entirety :P I like to consider this a punkworks operation, after all, I used? to be an adjunct? (I just noticed the 'who is punkworks' thread is gone).


Alright... but I still want to see that video!

Knowing that it's "out there" just not public is not nice. :(
\m/

#18 cockerpunk

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Posted 15 March 2013 - 03:12 PM




I can't reveal my source or share the video but, I've seen HSV that shows the LAPCO/Tiberius rifled barrel imparts a spin greater than what the punkworks smoothbore HSV showed. I pushed FUNDED this test just to see if it made a difference and yeah, I was surprised it made that much of a difference.


fixed it for you.


I'm sure you guys put some of your own funds and time into this so, I won't say I funded the entirety :P I like to consider this a punkworks operation, after all, I used? to be an adjunct? (I just noticed the 'who is punkworks' thread is gone).


Alright... but I still want to see that video!

Knowing that it's "out there" just not public is not nice. :(


if we had shot it, we'd show it to you.
The ultimate truth in paintball is that the interaction between the gun and the player is far and away the largest factor in accuracy, consistency, and reliability.

And yes, Gordon is the sexiest manifestation of "to the front."


#19 brycelarson

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Posted 15 March 2013 - 03:20 PM

If we had shot it, we'd show it to you.


yup, we're open source. Unless it's useless data we publish everything.

#20 Danny D

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Posted 15 March 2013 - 03:38 PM

Was the discrepancy in fps related to bore size? or was it a unique feature of the hammerhead barrel?

Did you get an FPS increase with the larger bore smoothbore barrels compared to the lapco rifled barrels?

#21 UV Halo

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Posted 15 March 2013 - 05:34 PM

Alright... but I still want to see that video!

Knowing that it's "out there" just not public is not nice. :(


Here you go:

Video

#22 Lord Odin

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Posted 15 March 2013 - 06:14 PM

Did you guys notice any breaks during the test? Did the rifling cause any increase in fragility of the round?

#23 brycelarson

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Posted 15 March 2013 - 10:57 PM

Did you guys notice any breaks during the test? Did the rifling cause any increase in fragility of the round?


I had 4 breaks. Two on rifled systems, two on smooth bore systems. The tiberius guns are simply a bad paintball platform. They don't function well. Three were chops and one was a barrel break - or simply came apart in the barrel without fouling the breech - that one was in the hammerhead.

#24 johnny5

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Posted 16 March 2013 - 12:00 AM

Have you tried the hammerhead rifled barrel on the Hammer 7? I'm curious to hear if the fins have an impact on the accuracy of first strike (and also how you feel about the H7 as a first strike platform)

#25 brycelarson

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Posted 16 March 2013 - 01:51 PM

Have you tried the hammerhead rifled barrel on the Hammer 7? I'm curious to hear if the fins have an impact on the accuracy of first strike (and also how you feel about the H7 as a first strike platform)


I'm a fan of a semi-auto platform for First Strikes. The quick follow-up shots are often necessary and a pump platform means it's harder to keep on target between shots.

#26 Teek

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Posted 19 March 2013 - 01:28 PM


Have you tried the hammerhead rifled barrel on the Hammer 7? I'm curious to hear if the fins have an impact on the accuracy of first strike (and also how you feel about the H7 as a first strike platform)


I'm a fan of a semi-auto platform for First Strikes. The quick follow-up shots are often necessary and a pump platform means it's harder to keep on target between shots.


Have you guys done anything with the DAM yet? Lots of awesome ideas there, but I can't get around the price tag. I'm still hoping someone can make a light, inexpensive fs marker, rather than heavy and expensive hybrids. I'd even settle for a pump gun. I just want something I can carry around with my regular marker, rather than replacing it.

Also, have you guys ever thought of comparing all the fs mags and marker internals out there, to see what works and what doesn't? Seems like this kind of marker has only made piecemeal progress over the last few years.

Edited by Teek, 19 March 2013 - 01:32 PM.

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#27 UV Halo

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Posted 19 March 2013 - 05:34 PM

Have you guys done anything with the DAM yet? Lots of awesome ideas there, but I can't get around the price tag. I'm still hoping someone can make a light, inexpensive fs marker, rather than heavy and expensive hybrids. I'd even settle for a pump gun. I just want something I can carry around with my regular marker, rather than replacing it.

Also, have you guys ever thought of comparing all the fs mags and marker internals out there, to see what works and what doesn't? Seems like this kind of marker has only made piecemeal progress over the last few years.


They'll correct me if I'm wrong but no, they haven't done any testing of the DAM.

In regards to comparing the different markers in production, it sounds like your looking for something more along the lines of product reviews. Especially since, none of the marker manufacturers are making specific claims of how their marker fires FS rounds better than the others. This is something that Punkworks does not engage in.

I agree with the seemingly piecemeal approach but, you need to remember that FS rounds have barely been available for four years. You can safely assume that the industry waited for at least a year before committing to research and development (to see how the rounds performed in reality and in the market). Aside from the T15, all the guns on the market are essentially first generation.

#28 Vhyrus

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Posted 19 March 2013 - 11:39 PM

I remember back in the 90's one of the first mods I did was a rifled armson barrel for my spyder compact. I thought it was an absolutely awesome barrel and I did feel like it made the gun more accurate. Only problem was if you chopped a ball your accuracy was BONED. Good to see they are bringing them back.

#29 UV Halo

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Posted 19 March 2013 - 11:40 PM

I remember back in the 90's one of the first mods I did was a rifled armson barrel for my spyder compact. I thought it was an absolutely awesome barrel and I did feel like it made the gun more accurate. Only problem was if you chopped a ball your accuracy was BONED. Good to see they are bringing them back.


Your eyes deceived you. With regular paint, rifled barrels do no good. This test/thread is all about First Strike Rounds.

#30 JasonSaastad

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Posted 25 March 2013 - 10:45 PM

Makes me wish I hadn't traded away my Hammerhead barrel for my modded TPX :(

Do you think a seven inch barrel would even be long enough to impart spin on the FirstStrike rounds?

#31 brycelarson

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Posted 26 March 2013 - 08:13 AM

Do you think a seven inch barrel would even be long enough to impart spin on the FirstStrike rounds?


yes. the 9" barrels we tested were better when rifled however the longer barrels increased accuracy by a larger factor.




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