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#1 Jawz

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Posted 16 March 2013 - 03:10 PM

Hey just wanted to ask a question relating to law to you guys. Who invented the electro pneumatic marker? I know some people fight between the original angel, and the shocker (more towards the shocker), and there is significant proof on both sides, however legally speaking smart parts took alot of advantage of the power they had suing left and right along with threats to take companies like spyder to court for breach of patents, but after trying to sue WDP the lawsuit ended in a smart parts loss and closely followed by a WDP counter sue in which WDP came out ontop, so I can't really say who invented the electro pneumatic marker? Or more, who invented it "legally speaking", I do know that ATM Dye, kee, (either kee bought what WDP owned, or the owners of WDP still keep the patent and obtain royalties off it?). Any insight would be cool as it's been bugging me for a while...
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#2 Corysllw

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Posted 16 March 2013 - 03:14 PM

.....

Edited by Corysllw, 16 March 2013 - 03:20 PM.


#3 Nobben #44

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Posted 16 March 2013 - 04:01 PM

Wasn't it AGD who made the first one? Or was that the first HPA powered gun?

Can't quite remember to be honest. :D

#4 madsnipes

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Posted 16 March 2013 - 05:53 PM

Wasn't it AGD who made the first one? Or was that the first HPA powered gun?

Can't quite remember to be honest. :D

Yes AGD made the first HPA powered gun not the first electro.


I believe that the WDP Angel was the first electropneumatic marker followed very closely by the original shocker.
But Smart parts patented it first and used that patent to sue the paintball industry into the ground.
Angel being the only company large enough to fight back against SP, managed to find one guy who didn't sign over his part of the patent that smart parts owned. so they bought it form him.
Angel now owned like 1/5th of the patent or something and won in court because of it.

When smart parts went under KEE bought the patent and still currently own it.

#5 Jawz

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Posted 17 March 2013 - 12:02 AM


Wasn't it AGD who made the first one? Or was that the first HPA powered gun?

Can't quite remember to be honest. :D

Yes AGD made the first HPA powered gun not the first electro.


I believe that the WDP Angel was the first electropneumatic marker followed very closely by the original shocker.
But Smart parts patented it first and used that patent to sue the paintball industry into the ground.
Angel being the only company large enough to fight back against SP, managed to find one guy who didn't sign over his part of the patent that smart parts owned. so they bought it form him.
Angel now owned like 1/5th of the patent or something and won in court because of it.

When smart parts went under KEE bought the patent and still currently own it.


Yes but didn't Dye get a cut too, so until smart parts went under the patent was shared between Dye, WDP, and Smart Parts? I wonder who owns what now? Since most WDP patents were tranfered to the green bro's does that mean Kee or dye can or cannot claim royalties from other companies?
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#6 The Inflicted

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Posted 17 March 2013 - 12:31 AM

DYE never owned the electropneumatic gun patent, only patents for certain kinds of spool-valved markers.
...patents which the Ion infringed.
DYE and Smart Parts cut a deal whereby they agreed not to take action against the other for patent use, though to my knowledge ownership, nor even licensing for the mutual patents never changed hands.

#7 Jawz

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Posted 17 March 2013 - 01:41 AM

DYE never owned the electropneumatic gun patent, only patents for certain kinds of spool-valved markers.
...patents which the Ion infringed.
DYE and Smart Parts cut a deal whereby they agreed not to take action against the other for patent use, though to my knowledge ownership, nor even licensing for the mutual patents never changed hands.


Wait wait, I was so certain that after smart part's was crippled by wdp, dye took sort of a cheap shot in which they used their spool valve patents to obtain traits of the smart parts patent's threatening to sue and in conclusion smart parts gave them "alittle piece of the pie" if you will of their already shared patents?
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#8 Panda Man

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Posted 17 March 2013 - 02:09 AM

Dye and Smart Parts traded "ideas" as well, maybe not exact valves or Electronic codes but when one engineer/designer thought of a idea they would talk to each other about it. Posted Image

It was not about how the Gun operated either, it was simply a dispute between Solenoids which is just like "wow..." Now days.

#9 Jawz

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Posted 17 March 2013 - 02:48 AM

Dye and Smart Parts traded "ideas" as well, maybe not exact valves or Electronic codes but when one engineer/designer thought of a idea they would talk to each other about it. Posted Image

It was not about how the Gun operated either, it was simply a dispute between Solenoids which is just like "wow..." Now days.


Hmm I think it seems to have benefited Dye more than smart parts, seeming as Dye solenoids are usually known as bullet proof!
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#10 saintnoir

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Posted 17 March 2013 - 03:26 AM

first electro pneumatic firing system us navy...the launch system for torpedo's off of pt boats, Smart parts got its patent through shenanigans of adding to the patent they held to make it broader and broader so that it covered all markers
"It is by caffeine alone I set my mind in motion, It is by the beans of Java the thoughts acquire speed, the hands acquire shaking, the shaking becomes a warning. It is by caffeine alone I set my mind in motion"
2k3 dark angel,2k1 c@c angel,dark ir3,2k1 angel,99 led,2k2 lcd,2kad,05,06 speed,g7,A1,A1 fly......yup i like angels

#11 Jawz

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Posted 17 March 2013 - 02:30 PM

first electro pneumatic firing system us navy...the launch system for torpedo's off of pt boats, Smart parts got its patent through shenanigans of adding to the patent they held to make it broader and broader so that it covered all markers


Yea, but what I'm trying to find out NOW is who owns or has shares in the patent now? do the green bro's still have a share, has dye obtained some, is kee now the absolute owners of the patent?
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#12 madsnipes

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Posted 17 March 2013 - 04:48 PM


first electro pneumatic firing system us navy...the launch system for torpedo's off of pt boats, Smart parts got its patent through shenanigans of adding to the patent they held to make it broader and broader so that it covered all markers


Yea, but what I'm trying to find out NOW is who owns or has shares in the patent now? do the green bro's still have a share, has dye obtained some, is kee now the majority owners of the patent?

True
False
As far as i know this is the answer

Edited by madsnipes, 17 March 2013 - 05:36 PM.


#13 TechPB-Mike

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Posted 17 March 2013 - 05:09 PM

get in touch with Spitlebug, or Gordon

They tend to know a little more about stuff like this

It's just a twisted, spaghetti mess of history

As far as I know, ultimately Smart Parts seemed to own the largest majority of the "electronic gun" patents, which have now been sold to KEE / Empire

#14 saintnoir

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Posted 17 March 2013 - 09:54 PM

actually the patent shared with SP was sold back to Sp years ago and the patents on lcd screens ,micro controllers and digital air regulators was transferred from NPF/WDP Ltd to the green brothers in 08.
the actual patent form
patent
the press release on the deal
JOINT PRESS RELEASE


FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE
April 1, 2006

Smart Parts Website:
www.smartparts.com
WDP Website:
www.wdp.tv
Dye Precision Website:
www.dyeprecision.com

Smart Parts, WDP, and Dye Resolve Litigation, License Agreements Part of Settlement
April 1, 2006

Smart Parts, Inc., WDP, Ltd., and Dye Precision, Inc. are pleased to announce the settlement of litigation pending between the companies and the entry into patent license agreements giving WDP and Dye a worldwide, non-exclusive license to make, sell, offer for sale, and distribute products covered by Smart Parts' electronic paintball gun patents; giving Smart Parts and Dye a worldwide, non-exclusive license to make, sell, offer for sale, and distribute products covered by a WDP's affiliate's LCD and Data Link and other related electronic paintball marker patents; and giving Smart Parts a license under Dye's patent related to spool valve paintball gun designs.

Smart Parts owns several U.S. and international patents and pending patent applications related to the use of electronics in the control and operation of paintball guns. These include, for instance, U.S. Patent Nos. 5,881,707; 5,967,133; 6,035,843; 6,474,326; and 6,637,421, as well as numerous other patents and pending patent applications in the U.S. and other countries. The WDP affiliate owns numerous U.S. and international patents related to the electronic control and monitoring of paintball guns, including U.S. Patent Nos. 6,311,682; 6,615,814; 6,748,938; 6,860,259; 6,941,693, as well as additional issued and pending international and U.S. patents and applications. Dye Precision owns U.S. Patent No. 5,613,483 related to spool valve paintball gun designs with additional U.S. and international applications pending.
"It is by caffeine alone I set my mind in motion, It is by the beans of Java the thoughts acquire speed, the hands acquire shaking, the shaking becomes a warning. It is by caffeine alone I set my mind in motion"
2k3 dark angel,2k1 c@c angel,dark ir3,2k1 angel,99 led,2k2 lcd,2kad,05,06 speed,g7,A1,A1 fly......yup i like angels

#15 Jawz

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Posted 17 March 2013 - 11:03 PM

Thanks guys, the input is much appreciated!
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#16 unfated33

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Posted 18 March 2013 - 10:00 AM

The problematic, expanded electro patent is set to expire in about two years. It will be interesting to see what becomes of the manufacturing industry after that.

As far as I know, all of the patents that Smart Parts owned were purchased by Kee and most are now enforced by Kee. I haven't followed what happened to the rest of the intellectual property. A couple of the patents were transformed into open availability so that anyone could use the technology (obviously not the $10k per year circuit board patent). If you look each of them up you can see which have been maintained and which have lapsed.
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#17 Jawz

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Posted 18 March 2013 - 10:53 AM

The problematic, expanded electro patent is set to expire in about two years. It will be interesting to see what becomes of the manufacturing industry after that.

As far as I know, all of the patents that Smart Parts owned were purchased by Kee and most are now enforced by Kee. I haven't followed what happened to the rest of the intellectual property. A couple of the patents were transformed into open availability so that anyone could use the technology (obviously not the $10k per year circuit board patent). If you look each of them up you can see which have been maintained and which have lapsed.


In two years, they will also be pending to be renewed. That's the bad thing about patents
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#18 unfated33

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Posted 18 March 2013 - 02:43 PM

Well...sorta, but more to the point - no.

Once the original patent expires, the technology enters the public domain. Any improvements on the technology can also be patented and typically those are seen as "renewals". So if J4 Paintball has patented what they've done on the stacked tube spool, or if Kee or another company patented using a pressure transducer in a gun, those patents will be enforced for the period that the patent was successfully applied for. However, the patent to use an electromagnetic marker with solenoid and circuit board will enter the free public domain in two years. Smart Parts kept expanding that patent to cover things like the stacked tube spool and many other competitor's propietary technologies (they couldn't use the technology since they didn't hold those patents, but they also blocked others from using the technology without paying licensing fees). When the original patent falls, those that are being held up by the Smart Parts patent will now be able to use and enforce their own patents in the market again.

Basically, in two years everyone will be able to make a Shocker. However, you (likely) won't be able to make a Vanquish unless you're Kee or you get license from Kee.
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#19 Jawz

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Posted 18 March 2013 - 03:12 PM

Well...sorta, but more to the point - no.

Once the original patent expires, the technology enters the public domain. Any improvements on the technology can also be patented and typically those are seen as "renewals". So if J4 Paintball has patented what they've done on the stacked tube spool, or if Kee or another company patented using a pressure transducer in a gun, those patents will be enforced for the period that the patent was successfully applied for. However, the patent to use an electromagnetic marker with solenoid and circuit board will enter the free public domain in two years. Smart Parts kept expanding that patent to cover things like the stacked tube spool and many other competitor's propietary technologies (they couldn't use the technology since they didn't hold those patents, but they also blocked others from using the technology without paying licensing fees). When the original patent falls, those that are being held up by the Smart Parts patent will now be able to use and enforce their own patents in the market again.

Basically, in two years everyone will be able to make a Shocker. However, you (likely) won't be able to make a Vanquish unless you're Kee or you get license from Kee.

Alright interesting. Although won't WDP/Green brother's still share in the patent if it is renewed? (sorry for the question's I'm becoming a lawyer when I'm out of school so this is very interesting to me)
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#20 unfated33

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Posted 18 March 2013 - 03:27 PM

Alright interesting. Although won't WDP/Green brother's still share in the patent if it is renewed? (sorry for the question's I'm becoming a lawyer when I'm out of school so this is very interesting to me)

No, because their patents are only their own - which also will be expiring soon (if they haven't already). There is some overlapping intellectual property between the patents, but writing an update/improvement to a Smart Parts patent like Kee has done in parts won't mean that Green Bros. still get a share in that new patent.

The problem was not that Smart Parts or WDP had patents, but that specifically Smart Parts made their patent overly broad and then got it approved on second pass such that they could lock down the entire market for electropneumatic markers. Unless someone else is able to push through an overly broad patent in the future, the lawsuits and threats should be smaller scale. The key for new small companies will be to create their own intellectual property prior to bringing their products to market, and without that binding master patent, they should be more likely to do so.
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#21 Jawz

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Posted 18 March 2013 - 03:52 PM


Alright interesting. Although won't WDP/Green brother's still share in the patent if it is renewed? (sorry for the question's I'm becoming a lawyer when I'm out of school so this is very interesting to me)

No, because their patents are only their own - which also will be expiring soon (if they haven't already). There is some overlapping intellectual property between the patents, but writing an update/improvement to a Smart Parts patent like Kee has done in parts won't mean that Green Bros. still get a share in that new patent.

The problem was not that Smart Parts or WDP had patents, but that specifically Smart Parts made their patent overly broad and then got it approved on second pass such that they could lock down the entire market for electropneumatic markers. Unless someone else is able to push through an overly broad patent in the future, the lawsuits and threats should be smaller scale. The key for new small companies will be to create their own intellectual property prior to bringing their products to market, and without that binding master patent, they should be more likely to do so.


So basically what your saying is that in give or take 2 year's when the patent's expire during the renewal period we'll see a large amount of new companies or new unique patent's to be released or pending for approval?
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#22 unfated33

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Posted 18 March 2013 - 06:33 PM

We can hope, my friend. We can hope.
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