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How to Stop Throwing Away Your Money On Paintball


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#1 PBphilosopher

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Posted 22 March 2013 - 07:25 AM

Buying Expensive Guns and Paint Sucks. Join the Paintball Revolution:

Limits:

8 BPS Mech
5 BPS Electro
Paint: 1 gravity fed, 200 round hopper per game. (Maybe even 100 rounds)

How to cap: Initially by manufacturer specs. Then by disallowing any mods that could potentially increase ROF. So no Mags or Cockers, no egrips, response, light springs, double triggers etc...

Side note: One gun we are currently considering is the Enmey-- which, i think, shoots at about 10 bps. First we will put the spring on max tension and see if we can get it down to 8. If that doesn't work, we will spec out some heavier springs to see if the rate of fire will slow without messing up the feel of the trigger. If not, we will probably allow it at what ever the BPS is at stock spring max tension. A lot of us really like the technology on the gun, so if we get it and like it, it would be worth allowing a slightly higher ROF.

Why cap:

1. It allows more movement on the field, which is better exercise and more fun.
2. It gives the advantage to the player who can move and who thinks strategically, not the player who spent the most money on equipment/paint.
3. It eliminates PERCEIVED advantage. Everyone on the field knows that you will never lose because someone spent more/had better equip/more paint. If you win/lose, it is 100% because of you and everybody knows that.
4. It's MUCH MUCH cheaper. Nobody can complain or miss a game because of money. You get competitive guns for under $100 and You pay less than $15 for a half case that lasts you all day, you could easily get a bag and play for less than $10/day.

Fun Facts:
1. 10BPS is about the same and the 240B and SAW (machine guns) and 13 times faster than the an M-4 in semi automatic.
2. Is Playing at 10BPS twice as fun as 5? If not, you are wasting your money.

Who wins when with high ROF?
2 parties: The person on the field with the most money, and the paintball/gun manufacturers.
Who loses: Everybody else.

"But I loving devastating my enemies with 26BPS"
This may be true, but do you love 5 times as much?

"But I own a field and my highest margin item is paint. This will devastate my business"
FALSE. Your highest margin item, in terms of variable cost, is your entry fee. Let's look at the math:

Your course:

Player Buys $50 in paint: You net $20
Player entry fee $10: You net $10
All day air $7: You net $3.50 (costs for co2 HPA and labor)

Player pays $67 You net $33.50

Paintball Revolution Course:

Player Buys $25 in paint: You net $10
Player entry fee $20: You net $20
All day air $5: You net $3.50 (costs for co2 HPA and labor)

Player pays $50 You net $33.50

You make the same amount and the player saves at least 25%. (This only accounts for ROF limits, with hopper limits and gun savings, players are probably looking at 75% savings)

Additional Benefits Not Calculated:
1. This style is far more inviting to new players. (less paint flying, and rental guns are equal)
2. People who could never afford to play, now can.
3. People who are already playing can play more.
4. The increase in attendance lowers your fixed cost by distributing it over more people.
5. Lower insurance costs.

Questions? Comments? Flaming is welcomed. :)

Edited by PBphilosopher, 22 March 2013 - 07:28 AM.


#2 get.lit.up!

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Posted 22 March 2013 - 07:40 AM

Or you can just play hopper ball and learn trigger control
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#3 FreeEnterprise

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Posted 22 March 2013 - 07:41 AM

One of the biggest reasons people fire more paint is because of the inherent design flaw of paintballs... They don't always break. So when the rules are set up where players are in until a ball breaks on them. Then the players shoot more paint at the other player to "ensure" a break. This leads to the much more paint being thrown than is needed, bonusballing, overshooting, ect. The worse the paint is, the more of a problem this issue is.

If fields simply played "honor" ball, and counted any hit as you are out regardless of breaks, then it would cut down on the need of a stream of paint to ensure one of the paintballs doesn't malfunction and breaks on target, eliminating the other player.

You would still have the cheaters, who pretend that they weren't hit, but it would cut down on the amount of paint needed to ensure an elimination.

#4 Cookybiscuit

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Posted 22 March 2013 - 07:42 AM

You are there to enjoy yourself, nothing else. If 'saving cash' by using cheap gear and no paint is boring to you, then you are throwing your money away.

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#5 Steephill

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Posted 22 March 2013 - 07:51 AM

You are there to enjoy yourself, nothing else. If 'saving cash' by using cheap gear and no paint is boring to you, then you are throwing your money away.


+1

I dont shoot much paint per game, half a hopper if I'm playing recball, 20-30 shots with a pump and a hopper and 1-2 pods if playing speedball. Point still stands that if you're not having fun by shooting less paint or whatever then it's pointless. Who cares if someone is shooting 12.5 ramping and you choose not to in recball. As long as it's not against renters it's not a big deal. I find I get around the same amount of eliminations playing with a pump, maybe just slightly less(not when I play speedball though lol). I still enjoy taking my guns out there and throwing down some lanes at 12.5 though. So even if I could use 20 paintballs to do the same thing as the 200+ I dont always do it, because I still like to get out there and shoot strings of paint sometimes. If people feel like dropping $100 just on paint who really cares? If that's what they like so be it.

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#6 nighthunter

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Posted 22 March 2013 - 07:55 AM

Limiting rates of fire at a field that's already in business would be quite a challenge to enforce. Contrary to popular belief, most paintballers are not the most honest individuals you will ever meet, and will find some way around the set limits if they really want to (refer to the hidden modes in APE oled boards, for example.) Refs would be spending more time making sure nobody's using a disallowed mode than actually watching the games.
All said, it's a nice idea, but it likely would not go over well with most players/fields.


And while I do play with electros from time to time, I also play with pistols quite a bit, and I don't feel "restricted" or "limited" at all when my opponents are ramping/shooting fast. It's part of the game, so just play smarter.


If you have a system that works well for you, congratulations; but as I said, it likely wouldn't go over well with most fields and/or players.

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#7 Panda's Revenge

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Posted 22 March 2013 - 08:07 AM

Oooooooooooor, you could save up, buy any high end of your choice and then learn trigger control.
That way you won't be tempted to buy a new marker because the current one sucks, and you waste less paint.

#8 Nobben #44

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Posted 22 March 2013 - 08:13 AM

Or you can just play paintball like you like playing paintball. For me that is shooting something good, using 10bps ramp like everyone else and playing tournaments. And for some that is playing pump.
If you actually played tournaments you would understand that gear don't mean shit on the field. And why is Mech 8bps and electro 5bps? That makes no sense what so ever.

Are you just out to ruin paintball for everyone who doesn't play like you do? Certainly seems like it. :rolleyes:

#9 canscom

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Posted 22 March 2013 - 08:13 AM

Yea...........FUCK NO
Stop worrying about how you look, and start worrying about how you play. Get out on the field and play paintball the best you can, not stand at home in front of a mirror trying to figure out if your jersey matches your eyes.

#10 PBphilosopher

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Posted 22 March 2013 - 08:16 AM

One of the biggest reasons people fire more paint is because of the inherent design flaw of paintballs... They don't always break. So when the rules are set up where players are in until a ball breaks on them. Then the players shoot more paint at the other player to "ensure" a break. This leads to the much more paint being thrown than is needed, bonusballing, overshooting, ect. The worse the paint is, the more of a problem this issue is.

If fields simply played "honor" ball, and counted any hit as you are out regardless of breaks, then it would cut down on the need of a stream of paint to ensure one of the paintballs doesn't malfunction and breaks on target, eliminating the other player.

You would still have the cheaters, who pretend that they weren't hit, but it would cut down on the amount of paint needed to ensure an elimination.


I have a (not-perfect) solution. We play with a rule that if it leaves a mark, you are out. So basically, if it hurts, you are out. This is somewhat honor system, but we can check a guy if we think he is cheating.

#11 PBphilosopher

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Posted 22 March 2013 - 08:18 AM

You are there to enjoy yourself, nothing else. If 'saving cash' by using cheap gear and no paint is boring to you, then you are throwing your money away.


I agree with you 100%. If you were limited to a ROF that was 13X faster than what the US Army specs for it's primary weapon, would you personally, consider that boring?

#12 PBphilosopher

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Posted 22 March 2013 - 08:21 AM

Or you can just play paintball like you like playing paintball. For me that is shooting something good, using 10bps ramp like everyone else and playing tournaments. And for some that is playing pump.
If you actually played tournaments you would understand that gear don't mean shit on the field. And why is Mech 8bps and electro 5bps? That makes no sense what so ever.

Are you just out to ruin paintball for everyone who doesn't play like you do? Certainly seems like it. :rolleyes:


Just bringing up an idea. The reason electros have a higher handicap is because they have advantages other than ROF.

I'm not trying to ruin paintball for anyone. If you think that 10 BPS is twice as fun as 5 BPS then this idea would not make sense for you. Just like now, some people play full auto and other limit to 10.

The point I was trying to make, is that people (like me) always want the biggest and the best. So essentially what you end up with is an arms race. I have 13 BPS then you get 15 then i get 20 etc... Meanwhile we are financially running each other into the ground. The reason i posted was for people to consider if the twice the ROF is twice the fun, if not...Here is an idea for you.

Edited by PBphilosopher, 22 March 2013 - 08:28 AM.


#13 Nobben #44

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Posted 22 March 2013 - 08:23 AM


One of the biggest reasons people fire more paint is because of the inherent design flaw of paintballs... They don't always break. So when the rules are set up where players are in until a ball breaks on them. Then the players shoot more paint at the other player to "ensure" a break. This leads to the much more paint being thrown than is needed, bonusballing, overshooting, ect. The worse the paint is, the more of a problem this issue is.

If fields simply played "honor" ball, and counted any hit as you are out regardless of breaks, then it would cut down on the need of a stream of paint to ensure one of the paintballs doesn't malfunction and breaks on target, eliminating the other player.

You would still have the cheaters, who pretend that they weren't hit, but it would cut down on the amount of paint needed to ensure an elimination.


I have a (not-perfect) solution. We play with a rule that if it leaves a mark, you are out. So basically, if it hurts, you are out. This is somewhat honor system, but we can check a guy if we think he is cheating.



Ever played reball? I can tell you with 100% accuracy that this will not work.

There will always be cheaters, and that honor stuff makes it even worse.



Or you can just play paintball like you like playing paintball. For me that is shooting something good, using 10bps ramp like everyone else and playing tournaments. And for some that is playing pump.
If you actually played tournaments you would understand that gear don't mean shit on the field. And why is Mech 8bps and electro 5bps? That makes no sense what so ever.

Are you just out to ruin paintball for everyone who doesn't play like you do? Certainly seems like it. :rolleyes:


No. Just bringing up an idea. The reason electros have a higher handicap is because they have advantages other than ROF.


Like what? The trigger is easier to pull? Well, high end mechs can have soft trigger too you know.

Edited by Nobben #44, 22 March 2013 - 08:24 AM.


#14 PBphilosopher

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Posted 22 March 2013 - 08:34 AM



One of the biggest reasons people fire more paint is because of the inherent design flaw of paintballs... They don't always break. So when the rules are set up where players are in until a ball breaks on them. Then the players shoot more paint at the other player to "ensure" a break. This leads to the much more paint being thrown than is needed, bonusballing, overshooting, ect. The worse the paint is, the more of a problem this issue is.

If fields simply played "honor" ball, and counted any hit as you are out regardless of breaks, then it would cut down on the need of a stream of paint to ensure one of the paintballs doesn't malfunction and breaks on target, eliminating the other player.

You would still have the cheaters, who pretend that they weren't hit, but it would cut down on the amount of paint needed to ensure an elimination.


I have a (not-perfect) solution. We play with a rule that if it leaves a mark, you are out. So basically, if it hurts, you are out. This is somewhat honor system, but we can check a guy if we think he is cheating.



Ever played reball? I can tell you with 100% accuracy that this will not work.

There will always be cheaters, and that honor stuff makes it even worse.



Or you can just play paintball like you like playing paintball. For me that is shooting something good, using 10bps ramp like everyone else and playing tournaments. And for some that is playing pump.
If you actually played tournaments you would understand that gear don't mean shit on the field. And why is Mech 8bps and electro 5bps? That makes no sense what so ever.

Are you just out to ruin paintball for everyone who doesn't play like you do? Certainly seems like it. :rolleyes:


No. Just bringing up an idea. The reason electros have a higher handicap is because they have advantages other than ROF.


Like what? The trigger is easier to pull? Well, high end mechs can have soft trigger too you know.


I don't know of any high end mechs that would qualify. Which ones are you thinking of? As far as other advantages of electros: Lighter, softer trigger pull, easier on paint, more consistent, and most importantly: the psychological advantage. most people believe electros are better and therefor will play better with one and be more intimidated by one. What do you think the electro cap should be?

I have never played reball that I know of. What is it? I can tell you with 100% certainty that if a paintball leaves a mark, you can verify it, because...it leaves a mark.

Edited by PBphilosopher, 22 March 2013 - 08:37 AM.


#15 canscom

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Posted 22 March 2013 - 08:40 AM

Why are Military weapons being brought into a Paintball discusion?
Stop worrying about how you look, and start worrying about how you play. Get out on the field and play paintball the best you can, not stand at home in front of a mirror trying to figure out if your jersey matches your eyes.

#16 XxJellyFilledxX

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Posted 22 March 2013 - 08:44 AM

Why are Military weapons being brought into a Paintball discusion?


This. Your argument on the ROF of an M4 or SAW Makes no sense at all. Millitary weapons and paintball guns are completely different in almost every way.

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#17 PBphilosopher

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Posted 22 March 2013 - 08:45 AM

Why are Military weapons being brought into a Paintball discusion?

What type of weapons do you think would be better to compare to?

#18 XxJellyFilledxX

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Posted 22 March 2013 - 08:53 AM

A weapon and a marking device do not compare.

"You can't break a man the way you break a dog or a horse. The harder you beat a man, the taller he stands. To break a man's will, to break his spirit, you have to break his mind."

 


#19 canscom

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Posted 22 March 2013 - 08:53 AM

None full stop end of story.A rifle or handgun isnt the same as a Paintball marker yes they both shoot a projectile other then that they are different Ive never come off the break and looked down and seen a Lee-Enfield in my hands.
Stop worrying about how you look, and start worrying about how you play. Get out on the field and play paintball the best you can, not stand at home in front of a mirror trying to figure out if your jersey matches your eyes.

#20 PBphilosopher

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Posted 22 March 2013 - 08:54 AM


Why are Military weapons being brought into a Paintball discusion?


This. Your argument on the ROF of an M4 or SAW Makes no sense at all. Millitary weapons and paintball guns are completely different in almost every way.


They are the only other weapons I know of to reference to. The US military is considered by some to be the most effective war machine in the history of mankind. Their opinions are often well studied and respected. The ROF that they determine to be effective in acquiring targets would seem relevant to a discussion on ROF caps and capabilities.

I realize that an M4 is far more precise than a paintball gun and thus a paintball gun must have a higher rate of fire, but the question is, how much higher? 13X? 26X 50X? Keep in mind that the effective range of an M-4 is 300 meters and in paintball I would guess 30 meters would be the higher end.

I would be interested to know if you think there are other projectile firing devices that you think may be more relevant to the discussion?

#21 elraido

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Posted 22 March 2013 - 08:54 AM

most people believe electros are better and therefor will play better with one and be more intimidated by one. What do you think the electro cap should be?


Intimidated by one? Why? At our field we have a rule, semi auto mode only on all guns. You can walk a trigger easier on an electro for a higher rate of fire, but to me, the difference between 5 bbs and 15 bbs isn't that much. I know it is, but at the same time, if you are in the better position you can keep a person down just as well with 5 as you can with 15.

#22 PBphilosopher

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Posted 22 March 2013 - 08:56 AM

A weapon and a marking device do not compare.


What would compare to a paintball gun?


most people believe electros are better and therefor will play better with one and be more intimidated by one. What do you think the electro cap should be?


Intimidated by one? Why? At our field we have a rule, semi auto mode only on all guns. You can walk a trigger easier on an electro for a higher rate of fire, but to me, the difference between 5 bbs and 15 bbs isn't that much. I know it is, but at the same time, if you are in the better position you can keep a person down just as well with 5 as you can with 15.


This is the exact reason I posted this. If 15 is the same as 5 why not limit everyone to 5 and save 66% of their money.

#23 PREDATOR 47

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Posted 22 March 2013 - 09:01 AM

Why would I want to limit what I spend? I play paintball for fun, and trying to budget myself means I'll just be budgeting the amount of fun I can have.

#24 XxJellyFilledxX

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Posted 22 March 2013 - 09:08 AM


A weapon and a marking device do not compare.


What would compare to a paintball gun?


My answers in orange.

A paintball gun.

They are the only other weapons I know of to reference to. The US military is considered by some to be the most effective war machine in the history of mankind. Their opinions are often well studied and respected. The ROF that they determine to be effective in acquiring targets would seem relevant to a discussion on ROF caps and capabilities.

I can understand where you are coming from but its quite simple a firearm and a paintball gun do not have similar accuracy at all. The tactics related to firearms in paintball guns just are too different for the same rules to apply.

This is the dynamics of a paintball in flight

Posted Image

This is one of a bullet


Posted Image


As you can see its rather amazing we hit anything at all...


I realize that an M4 is far more precise than a paintball gun and thus a paintball gun must have a higher rate of fire, but the question is, how much higher? 13X? 26X 50X? Keep in mind that the effective range of an M-4 is 300 meters and in paintball I would guess 30 meters would be the higher end.

I can see that the cost would be lowered and it makes complete sense and i have no issue with this thinking. Im also not trying to argue with you, i just dont see a firearm and paintball gun on the same level.

At least in my eyes more than half the fun of paintball is being outclassed by your opponent.


I would be interested to know if you think there are other projectile firing devices that you think may be more relevant to the discussion?

Nope, as stated earlier the only thing comparable to a paintball gun is a paintball gun.

Just as a similar situation you cant describe a primary color to anyone.

Edited by XxJellyFilledxX, 22 March 2013 - 09:10 AM.

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#25 elraido

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Posted 22 March 2013 - 09:09 AM


A weapon and a marking device do not compare.


What would compare to a paintball gun?


most people believe electros are better and therefor will play better with one and be more intimidated by one. What do you think the electro cap should be?


Intimidated by one? Why? At our field we have a rule, semi auto mode only on all guns. You can walk a trigger easier on an electro for a higher rate of fire, but to me, the difference between 5 bbs and 15 bbs isn't that much. I know it is, but at the same time, if you are in the better position you can keep a person down just as well with 5 as you can with 15.


This is the exact reason I posted this. If 15 is the same as 5 why not limit everyone to 5 and save 66% of their money.


I get the point of posting this. You don't throw the minnows in with the sharks. That is the solution. Don't have teams so one sided in terms of skill and make sure people are on semi and not full auto. After that, go nuts.

#26 PBphilosopher

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Posted 22 March 2013 - 09:12 AM

Why would I want to limit what I spend? I play paintball for fun, and trying to budget myself means I'll just be budgeting the amount of fun I can have.


If you have an unlimited amount of money or are having fun 100% of the time this answer will not apply to you. However, if that is not the case, You would want to limit the amount you spend on paintball so you could use the money on other things that are also fun. Lets say that you are currently spending $500 a month on paintball and that you are receiving 100 units of fun. Now lets say that you joined the paintball revolution and were only spending $250, and lets say that its not quite as much fun cause you can't fire your usual 26BPS (You are limited to just 8.) So we will say that you are getting only 75 units of fun. BUT you now have $250, so you can buy more units of fun. Say for instance, 250 condoms... How many fun units would those be worth to you? Or, if you are not good with women (or men), you could by one condom and spend the remaining $249 to find someone who will let you use it with them.

#27 spqr-king

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Posted 22 March 2013 - 09:15 AM

Lets save money on gas everyone buy hybrids and then we will only use half the gas and it will help the planet!!! < Same argument

The issue is not everyone is the same, people like variety and some people are wealthy and therefore can afford the toys and luxuries. As for the honor system with how rampant wiping is in all aspects of the sport I would guess to say games would last 27 years before everyone called themselves out...

Edited by spqr-king, 22 March 2013 - 09:15 AM.

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#28 Ironchefxingba

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Posted 22 March 2013 - 09:18 AM


A weapon and a marking device do not compare.


What would compare to a paintball gun?


most people believe electros are better and therefor will play better with one and be more intimidated by one. What do you think the electro cap should be?


Intimidated by one? Why? At our field we have a rule, semi auto mode only on all guns. You can walk a trigger easier on an electro for a higher rate of fire, but to me, the difference between 5 bbs and 15 bbs isn't that much. I know it is, but at the same time, if you are in the better position you can keep a person down just as well with 5 as you can with 15.


his is the exact reason I posted this. If 15 is the same as 5 why not limit everyone to 5 and save 66% of their money.


fields and companies are not in business to save the player money. they are there to make money.
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#29 PREDATOR 47

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Posted 22 March 2013 - 09:25 AM


Why would I want to limit what I spend? I play paintball for fun, and trying to budget myself means I'll just be budgeting the amount of fun I can have.


If you have an unlimited amount of money or are having fun 100% of the time this answer will not apply to you. However, if that is not the case, You would want to limit the amount you spend on paintball so you could use the money on other things that are also fun. Lets say that you are currently spending $500 a month on paintball and that you are receiving 100 units of fun. Now lets say that you joined the paintball revolution and were only spending $250, and lets say that its not quite as much fun cause you can't fire your usual 26BPS (You are limited to just 8.) So we will say that you are getting only 75 units of fun. BUT you now have $250, so you can buy more units of fun. Say for instance, 250 condoms... How many fun units would those be worth to you? Or, if you are not good with women (or men), you could by one condom and spend the remaining $249 to find someone who will let you use it with them.

I had no idea fun was measured in units. :lol:

And I don't usually fire at 26bps, nor does just about any paintball player anymore. Just because someone has an electro, doesn't mean we just stand there shooting at insane rates of fire. I play in semi, because it's more fun for me, and I'd say my average ROF throughout the day is between 7-11bps anyway. And again, I don't want to save money on paintball.

Have you ever tried to have a hobby on a tight budget? It sucks. Part of the fun of a hobby is having the ability to buy shiny new toys and be able to afford to go play with them as much as I want.

And I wouldn't exactly go calling this a revolution yet, unless you happen to be GI Milsim.

#30 LV Backpacker

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Posted 22 March 2013 - 09:35 AM

Fuck that, I have a $1350 gun, and $200 loader and tank, and I want to use them at the upper limits of their performance. There's also the fact that if there is another field in close proximity to your "paintball revolution" field, you'll be struggling to compete since most players will chose a field without the ridiculous limits placed on them.

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#31 spqr-king

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Posted 22 March 2013 - 09:49 AM

Can we make a name for fun units? Like how they have units for how hot something is! Im thinking one unit of fun is equal to the muscular effort you are putting into the smile lol So full on balls out laughing is like 100,000 units of fun lol Posted Image

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#32 Akkadian_Tim

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Posted 22 March 2013 - 09:57 AM

Sorry, but any time you spend money on paintball you are "throwing money away." You don't need it to live (even though some people may argue that point), thus it is by nature unnecessary and frivolous.

BUT..... it's fun. And I enjoy it, so it's worth it to me to throw my money away for the experience of fun I get out of it.

Let people throw away as much money as they want on the game. It's their money, so what's it to you? If you are going against someone burning through a lot of paint, figure out a workaround with better tactics. It's satisfying to eliminate someone after they've expended pod after pod unsuccessfully and you're still in the game.

I generally budget myself to 1 case per day of play, less if I'm playing pump. If I get too low on paint, I'll switch to pump midday to make it last. But that's just me. I don't begrudge the people who can afford to shoot multiple cases. Let them do what they want.

Can we make a name for fun units? Like how they have units for how hot something is! Im thinking one unit of fun is equal to the muscular effort you are putting into the smile lol So full on balls out laughing is like 100,000 units of fun lol


I support this measure. :tup:

#33 ZzBrutality

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Posted 22 March 2013 - 09:58 AM

I... I just... I can't think of a good way to respond to this.

#34 Dogg3

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Posted 22 March 2013 - 09:59 AM



Why are Military weapons being brought into a Paintball discusion?


This. Your argument on the ROF of an M4 or SAW Makes no sense at all. Millitary weapons and paintball guns are completely different in almost every way.


They are the only other weapons I know of to reference to. The US military is considered by some to be the most effective war machine in the history of mankind. Their opinions are often well studied and respected. The ROF that they determine to be effective in acquiring targets would seem relevant to a discussion on ROF caps and capabilities.

I realize that an M4 is far more precise than a paintball gun and thus a paintball gun must have a higher rate of fire, but the question is, how much higher? 13X? 26X 50X? Keep in mind that the effective range of an M-4 is 300 meters and in paintball I would guess 30 meters would be the higher end.

I would be interested to know if you think there are other projectile firing devices that you think may be more relevant to the discussion?


Except it takes far fewer rounds to lay down suppressing fire with bullets than it does with paint. Not to mention the fact that range, projectile speed, and penetrability play a huge role.

Edited by Dogg3, 22 March 2013 - 10:00 AM.

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#35 XxJellyFilledxX

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Posted 22 March 2013 - 10:01 AM

Well if your life depended on paintball im sure it would take fewer rounds.

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#36 ZzBrutality

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Posted 22 March 2013 - 10:01 AM




Why are Military weapons being brought into a Paintball discusion?


This. Your argument on the ROF of an M4 or SAW Makes no sense at all. Millitary weapons and paintball guns are completely different in almost every way.


They are the only other weapons I know of to reference to. The US military is considered by some to be the most effective war machine in the history of mankind. Their opinions are often well studied and respected. The ROF that they determine to be effective in acquiring targets would seem relevant to a discussion on ROF caps and capabilities.

I realize that an M4 is far more precise than a paintball gun and thus a paintball gun must have a higher rate of fire, but the question is, how much higher? 13X? 26X 50X? Keep in mind that the effective range of an M-4 is 300 meters and in paintball I would guess 30 meters would be the higher end.

I would be interested to know if you think there are other projectile firing devices that you think may be more relevant to the discussion?


Except it takes far fewer rounds to lay down suppressing fire with bullets than it does with paint. Not to mention the fact that range, projectile speed, and penetrability play a huge role.

Exactly. No ones worrying about a paintball killing them. If I'm getting shot at I'm gonna keep my fucking head down, regardless of how fast their firing.

#37 Nobben #44

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Posted 22 March 2013 - 10:03 AM




One of the biggest reasons people fire more paint is because of the inherent design flaw of paintballs... They don't always break. So when the rules are set up where players are in until a ball breaks on them. Then the players shoot more paint at the other player to "ensure" a break. This leads to the much more paint being thrown than is needed, bonusballing, overshooting, ect. The worse the paint is, the more of a problem this issue is.

If fields simply played "honor" ball, and counted any hit as you are out regardless of breaks, then it would cut down on the need of a stream of paint to ensure one of the paintballs doesn't malfunction and breaks on target, eliminating the other player.

You would still have the cheaters, who pretend that they weren't hit, but it would cut down on the amount of paint needed to ensure an elimination.


I have a (not-perfect) solution. We play with a rule that if it leaves a mark, you are out. So basically, if it hurts, you are out. This is somewhat honor system, but we can check a guy if we think he is cheating.



Ever played reball? I can tell you with 100% accuracy that this will not work.

There will always be cheaters, and that honor stuff makes it even worse.



Or you can just play paintball like you like playing paintball. For me that is shooting something good, using 10bps ramp like everyone else and playing tournaments. And for some that is playing pump.
If you actually played tournaments you would understand that gear don't mean shit on the field. And why is Mech 8bps and electro 5bps? That makes no sense what so ever.

Are you just out to ruin paintball for everyone who doesn't play like you do? Certainly seems like it. :rolleyes:


No. Just bringing up an idea. The reason electros have a higher handicap is because they have advantages other than ROF.


Like what? The trigger is easier to pull? Well, high end mechs can have soft trigger too you know.


I don't know of any high end mechs that would qualify. Which ones are you thinking of? As far as other advantages of electros: Lighter, softer trigger pull, easier on paint, more consistent, and most importantly: the psychological advantage. most people believe electros are better and therefor will play better with one and be more intimidated by one. What do you think the electro cap should be?

I have never played reball that I know of. What is it? I can tell you with 100% certainty that if a paintball leaves a mark, you can verify it, because...it leaves a mark.


Rubber balls. So everything is "bouncing" and they only leave welts and "marks". Which you cannot see becuase there's a contraption called clothing in the way. Unless we're talking about normal paint splat. If so, what's your point? You get hit and the ball breaks and you're out and there's refs to check you? Last time I played that was how it is today, hardly call that a new "solution" or system.

You simply cannot vertify someone being hit unless the paintball leaves paint. And as someone said, a big issue is people shooting more because of the fear of bounching. Solution? Buy better paint.

And to the gun, psycological advantage is total bullshit. You can't enfore a rule basesd on a "psycological advantage" because some kids believe they play better with an electro.
And these: "Lighter, softer trigger pull, easier on paint, more consistent" don't really cut it either. I've held automags as light as a Shocker. I've seen automags shoot brittle paint with no problem. And more consistent? Give me a break.

The only, and I mean THE ONLY point you have there is the trigger, as electros in 99% of cases does have softer pulls.


Let people play how they like and with what they like. Enforce penalties for cheaters and have make everyone have a max ROF cap that is general.
You wanna play with a pump? Fine by me as long as I don't have to change my setup just so YOU can play.


Also, if I come across as pissed or agrey, don't worry, I'm not. ;)

Edited by Nobben #44, 22 March 2013 - 10:04 AM.


#38 NBTIppy

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Posted 22 March 2013 - 10:04 AM

I would never go to a field like this. My field must be full of crazy people because the new players and first timers LOVE playing with the tournament guys, they love the high ROF, the intense gun battles that come with playing against players with electros. They always get super interested in my gear, wondering how much I spent and how fast I can shoot it. I'll let them take it for a spin and they always come back with eyes glowing with excitement.

I find low ROF games incredibly boring, here in Canada most ROF caps are 15bps, there is nothing more enjoyable to me than hearing 15 bps slam against a bunker while I gun battle someone.

#39 spqr-king

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Posted 22 March 2013 - 10:06 AM




Why are Military weapons being brought into a Paintball discusion?


This. Your argument on the ROF of an M4 or SAW Makes no sense at all. Millitary weapons and paintball guns are completely different in almost every way.


They are the only other weapons I know of to reference to. The US military is considered by some to be the most effective war machine in the history of mankind. Their opinions are often well studied and respected. The ROF that they determine to be effective in acquiring targets would seem relevant to a discussion on ROF caps and capabilities.

I realize that an M4 is far more precise than a paintball gun and thus a paintball gun must have a higher rate of fire, but the question is, how much higher? 13X? 26X 50X? Keep in mind that the effective range of an M-4 is 300 meters and in paintball I would guess 30 meters would be the higher end.

I would be interested to know if you think there are other projectile firing devices that you think may be more relevant to the discussion?


Except it takes far fewer rounds to lay down suppressing fire with bullets than it does with paint. Not to mention the fact that range, projectile speed, and penetrability play a huge role.


Yea not to mention a bullet would make me shit my pants whereas paint is just... paint?

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#40 A&MBaller

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Posted 22 March 2013 - 10:08 AM

I would never go to a field like this. My field must be full of crazy people because the new players and first timers LOVE playing with the tournament guys, they love the high ROF, the intense gun battles that come with playing against players with electros. They always get super interested in my gear, wondering how much I spent and how fast I can shoot it. I'll let them take it for a spin and they always come back with eyes glowing with excitement.

I find low ROF games incredibly boring, here in Canada most ROF caps are 15bps, there is nothing more enjoyable to me than hearing 15 bps slam against a bunker while I gun battle someone.


This sums it up right here.

#41 Nobben #44

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Posted 22 March 2013 - 10:12 AM

I would never go to a field like this. My field must be full of crazy people because the new players and first timers LOVE playing with the tournament guys, they love the high ROF, the intense gun battles that come with playing against players with electros. They always get super interested in my gear, wondering how much I spent and how fast I can shoot it. I'll let them take it for a spin and they always come back with eyes glowing with excitement.

I find low ROF games incredibly boring, here in Canada most ROF caps are 15bps, there is nothing more enjoyable to me than hearing 15 bps slam against a bunker while I gun battle someone.


This.

First time I played speedball I only played with the experienced guys, that was way more fun.
Every kid I see at my field wants to play with us, so we mix it up, renters, top level players, newer players, and just have fun.

#42 unfated33

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Posted 22 March 2013 - 10:13 AM





One of the biggest reasons people fire more paint is because of the inherent design flaw of paintballs... They don't always break. So when the rules are set up where players are in until a ball breaks on them. Then the players shoot more paint at the other player to "ensure" a break. This leads to the much more paint being thrown than is needed, bonusballing, overshooting, ect. The worse the paint is, the more of a problem this issue is.

If fields simply played "honor" ball, and counted any hit as you are out regardless of breaks, then it would cut down on the need of a stream of paint to ensure one of the paintballs doesn't malfunction and breaks on target, eliminating the other player.

You would still have the cheaters, who pretend that they weren't hit, but it would cut down on the amount of paint needed to ensure an elimination.


I have a (not-perfect) solution. We play with a rule that if it leaves a mark, you are out. So basically, if it hurts, you are out. This is somewhat honor system, but we can check a guy if we think he is cheating.



Ever played reball? I can tell you with 100% accuracy that this will not work.

There will always be cheaters, and that honor stuff makes it even worse.



Or you can just play paintball like you like playing paintball. For me that is shooting something good, using 10bps ramp like everyone else and playing tournaments. And for some that is playing pump.
If you actually played tournaments you would understand that gear don't mean shit on the field. And why is Mech 8bps and electro 5bps? That makes no sense what so ever.

Are you just out to ruin paintball for everyone who doesn't play like you do? Certainly seems like it. :rolleyes:


No. Just bringing up an idea. The reason electros have a higher handicap is because they have advantages other than ROF.


Like what? The trigger is easier to pull? Well, high end mechs can have soft trigger too you know.


I don't know of any high end mechs that would qualify. Which ones are you thinking of? As far as other advantages of electros: Lighter, softer trigger pull, easier on paint, more consistent, and most importantly: the psychological advantage. most people believe electros are better and therefor will play better with one and be more intimidated by one. What do you think the electro cap should be?

I have never played reball that I know of. What is it? I can tell you with 100% certainty that if a paintball leaves a mark, you can verify it, because...it leaves a mark.


Rubber balls. So everything is "bouncing" and they only leave welts and "marks". Which you cannot see becuase there's a contraption called clothing in the way. Unless we're talking about normal paint splat. If so, what's your point? You get hit and the ball breaks and you're out and there's refs to check you? Last time I played that was how it is today, hardly call that a new "solution" or system.

You simply cannot vertify someone being hit unless the paintball leaves paint. And as someone said, a big issue is people shooting more because of the fear of bounching. Solution? Buy better paint.

And to the gun, psycological advantage is total bullshit. You can't enfore a rule basesd on a "psycological advantage" because some kids believe they play better with an electro.
And these: "Lighter, softer trigger pull, easier on paint, more consistent" don't really cut it either. I've held automags as light as a Shocker. I've seen automags shoot brittle paint with no problem. And more consistent? Give me a break.

The only, and I mean THE ONLY point you have there is the trigger, as electros in 99% of cases does have softer pulls.


Let people play how they like and with what they like. Enforce penalties for cheaters and have make everyone have a max ROF cap that is general.
You wanna play with a pump? Fine by me as long as I don't have to change my setup just so YOU can play.


Also, if I come across as pissed or agrey, don't worry, I'm not. ;)

You're forgetting eyes to prevent chopping. That's the other modern electro benefit, though it is somewhat countered by anti-chop soft bolts.

It isn't fully fleshed out yet, but the Clone GTi and the Vanquish both are using a pressure transducer to record output pressure. For future technologies, it's not a huge jump from that point to being able to tune control from multiple pressure readings. There are also other electronic features that have come and gone like built in chronography that could be potentially improved upon. Electronics just provide more expansion options, even if there may be plenty of mechnical discoveries still to be had (the dwell-independent STS and cam lever EGO LV1 come to mind). Otherwise, I agree with you.
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#43 Nobben #44

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Posted 22 March 2013 - 10:17 AM






One of the biggest reasons people fire more paint is because of the inherent design flaw of paintballs... They don't always break. So when the rules are set up where players are in until a ball breaks on them. Then the players shoot more paint at the other player to "ensure" a break. This leads to the much more paint being thrown than is needed, bonusballing, overshooting, ect. The worse the paint is, the more of a problem this issue is.

If fields simply played "honor" ball, and counted any hit as you are out regardless of breaks, then it would cut down on the need of a stream of paint to ensure one of the paintballs doesn't malfunction and breaks on target, eliminating the other player.

You would still have the cheaters, who pretend that they weren't hit, but it would cut down on the amount of paint needed to ensure an elimination.


I have a (not-perfect) solution. We play with a rule that if it leaves a mark, you are out. So basically, if it hurts, you are out. This is somewhat honor system, but we can check a guy if we think he is cheating.



Ever played reball? I can tell you with 100% accuracy that this will not work.

There will always be cheaters, and that honor stuff makes it even worse.



Or you can just play paintball like you like playing paintball. For me that is shooting something good, using 10bps ramp like everyone else and playing tournaments. And for some that is playing pump.
If you actually played tournaments you would understand that gear don't mean shit on the field. And why is Mech 8bps and electro 5bps? That makes no sense what so ever.

Are you just out to ruin paintball for everyone who doesn't play like you do? Certainly seems like it. :rolleyes:


No. Just bringing up an idea. The reason electros have a higher handicap is because they have advantages other than ROF.


Like what? The trigger is easier to pull? Well, high end mechs can have soft trigger too you know.


I don't know of any high end mechs that would qualify. Which ones are you thinking of? As far as other advantages of electros: Lighter, softer trigger pull, easier on paint, more consistent, and most importantly: the psychological advantage. most people believe electros are better and therefor will play better with one and be more intimidated by one. What do you think the electro cap should be?

I have never played reball that I know of. What is it? I can tell you with 100% certainty that if a paintball leaves a mark, you can verify it, because...it leaves a mark.


Rubber balls. So everything is "bouncing" and they only leave welts and "marks". Which you cannot see becuase there's a contraption called clothing in the way. Unless we're talking about normal paint splat. If so, what's your point? You get hit and the ball breaks and you're out and there's refs to check you? Last time I played that was how it is today, hardly call that a new "solution" or system.

You simply cannot vertify someone being hit unless the paintball leaves paint. And as someone said, a big issue is people shooting more because of the fear of bounching. Solution? Buy better paint.

And to the gun, psycological advantage is total bullshit. You can't enfore a rule basesd on a "psycological advantage" because some kids believe they play better with an electro.
And these: "Lighter, softer trigger pull, easier on paint, more consistent" don't really cut it either. I've held automags as light as a Shocker. I've seen automags shoot brittle paint with no problem. And more consistent? Give me a break.

The only, and I mean THE ONLY point you have there is the trigger, as electros in 99% of cases does have softer pulls.


Let people play how they like and with what they like. Enforce penalties for cheaters and have make everyone have a max ROF cap that is general.
You wanna play with a pump? Fine by me as long as I don't have to change my setup just so YOU can play.


Also, if I come across as pissed or agrey, don't worry, I'm not. ;)

You're forgetting eyes to prevent chopping. That's the other modern electro benefit, though it is somewhat countered by anti-chop soft bolts.

It isn't fully fleshed out yet, but the Clone GTi and the Vanquish both are using a pressure transducer to record output pressure. For future technologies, it's not a huge jump from that point to being able to tune control from multiple pressure readings. There are also other electronic features that have come and gone like built in chronography that could be potentially improved upon. Electronics just provide more expansion options, even if there may be plenty of mechnical discoveries still to be had (the dwell-independent STS and cam lever EGO LV1 come to mind). Otherwise, I agree with you.


So you're saying that because a few electroes have these brand new features and they have eyes, they should be capped at 3bps less than a mechanical one? :blink:

#44 HeroForADay

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Posted 22 March 2013 - 10:19 AM

All of you seem to forget the paintball manufacturers in the equation. What do you think would happen if the entire industry started shooting less and less? The quantity of product they move would decrease, and the revenue they generate would fall - again. I would bet that paint prices would increase just as they were in the 90s. There were more factors to the cheaper paint prices than the process becoming technologically easier... Their business model depended on paint volume (bulk manufacturing and sales).

#45 Rotozip2

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Posted 22 March 2013 - 10:22 AM

So you are telling me I can't use my mechanical autocockers because they shoot too fast? Okay then... Lol

Edited by Rotozip2, 22 March 2013 - 10:24 AM.

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#46 Nobben #44

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Posted 22 March 2013 - 10:23 AM

All of you seem to forget the paintball manufacturers in the equation. What do you think would happen if the entire industry started shooting less and less? The quantity of product they move would decrease, and the revenue they generate would fall - again. I would bet that paint prices would increase just as they were in the 90s. There were more factors to the cheaper paint prices than the process becoming technologically easier... Their business model depended on paint volume (bulk manufacturing and sales).

Very, very, very valid point right there.

#47 unfated33

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Posted 22 March 2013 - 10:30 AM

So you're saying that because a few electroes have these brand new features and they have eyes, they should be capped at 3bps less than a mechanical one? :blink:

No no, I was just saying it was a few more features than just the trigger currently and it could be more in the future - I still don't think it balances out the way OP wanted. Certainly not now, maybe not ever.
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#48 riddler

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Posted 22 March 2013 - 10:32 AM

no Mags or Cockers


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#49 Akkadian_Tim

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Posted 22 March 2013 - 10:33 AM

The quantity of product they move would decrease, and the revenue they generate would fall - again. I would bet that paint prices would increase just as they were in the 90s.


And then the little "entitle me" kiddies who think they deserve freebies/sponsorships/discounts would whine about the price of paintball all the more.

The same kiddies that whine that people need to shoot less because they can't keep up.

Edited by Akkadian_Tim, 22 March 2013 - 10:34 AM.


#50 Snake Doctor78

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Posted 22 March 2013 - 10:34 AM

I just started playing pump during rec ball games. So much more fun.




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