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#1 Orange Chicken

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Posted 01 May 2013 - 09:15 PM

Possible? Possibly benefitial? Discuss.

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#2 Billy Badass-RPF

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Posted 01 May 2013 - 10:10 PM

I think its possible if your board ran it and there was a sensor in your reg. Beneficial probably not, mechanical regs do a pretty good as they are.
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#3 kingJurzy

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Posted 01 May 2013 - 10:18 PM

Maybe Disruptive will pioneer it
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#4 Garribean

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Posted 01 May 2013 - 11:35 PM

Disruptive E-Reg! I see it now. 3 piece, tool less disassembly, easy to maintain.

#5 andrewthewookie

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Posted 01 May 2013 - 11:43 PM

Most regulators recharge in about 25ms, so you would have to have an accurate and reliable pressure transducer telling a board very quickly when to shut off the flow of air. This would have to be quite a heavy duty solenoid to be able to deal with up to 800-900psi consistently. Why even bother?

Our current regs are perfectly fine, and are quite good in fact. They are mechanically tuned, and will react consistently with no outside input other than the spring and the pressure coming in. We are basically using the air to regulate itself, as opposed to a complicated electronic system.

Edited by andrewthewookie, 01 May 2013 - 11:45 PM.

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#6 unfated33

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Posted 02 May 2013 - 09:36 AM

Most regulators recharge in about 25ms, so you would have to have an accurate and reliable pressure transducer telling a board very quickly when to shut off the flow of air. This would have to be quite a heavy duty solenoid to be able to deal with up to 800-900psi consistently. Why even bother?

Our current regs are perfectly fine, and are quite good in fact. They are mechanically tuned, and will react consistently with no outside input other than the spring and the pressure coming in. We are basically using the air to regulate itself, as opposed to a complicated electronic system.

I don't disagree that the current regulators work fine, but I'd like to explore the idea of what you could get out of an electronically controlled regulator. Coupled with a barrel chronograph and sufficient PID control, wouldn't it be possible to have an automatically tuned marker at the desired velocity? I would see this as very feasible, though I suspect expensive future option.

You'd need the ability to take data inputs of pressure and velocity (and trigger and eyes), and outputs to on/off and modulating valves. I'm curious as to just how far away a marker like this would be.
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#7 UV Halo

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Posted 02 May 2013 - 12:13 PM

The way I see it, it would be entirely possible to say integrate an electronically controlled, secondary regulator into something like a sandridge autococker but, what would the cost to benefit ratio be?

I believe that it's still prohibitive and it's not likely to change given that electropneumatic markers are droppping in prices faster than the cost of the electronics required to pull something like this off.

#8 cockerpunk

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Posted 02 May 2013 - 12:16 PM

electrical control of mechanical regulators exist.

electrical actuated regulators essentially don't. and for good reason, way overly complicated.

the issue with closed loop velocity control has always been the chronograph. there isnt a terribly easy or good way to measure shot velocity on gun, in real time, with all the modern conveniences of barrels.

Edited by cockerpunk, 02 May 2013 - 12:17 PM.

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#9 unfated33

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Posted 02 May 2013 - 01:19 PM

electrical control of mechanical regulators exist.

electrical actuated regulators essentially don't. and for good reason, way overly complicated.

the issue with closed loop velocity control has always been the chronograph. there isnt a terribly easy or good way to measure shot velocity on gun, in real time, with all the modern conveniences of barrels.

So I am sure that I'm understanding properly, you're saying in sentence 1 that it is possible to electrically turn a spring poppet regulator open and closed as a discrete signal. In sentence 2, you're saying that modulating the opening and closing of a spring poppet as an analog is prohibitive because of the complexity. Is that right?

I completely agree that the chronograph is still the major limiting factor. When someone is able to successfully implement that techonology with a removable barrel it will be a game-changer for marker design (though likely not a game changer for the game itself).


EDIT: Look at figure 3 for this hydraulic piezoelectric valve operation. I think this style valve would be perfect for regulator modulation.

Edited by unfated33, 02 May 2013 - 01:25 PM.

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#10 Troy

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Posted 02 May 2013 - 01:26 PM

electrical control of mechanical regulators exist.

electrical actuated regulators essentially don't. and for good reason, way overly complicated.

the issue with closed loop velocity control has always been the chronograph. there isnt a terribly easy or good way to measure shot velocity on gun, in real time, with all the modern conveniences of barrels.


Interesting... you could run an optical cable down the outside of the barrel and let the acoustics cause, measurable, micro bends in the cable that you can track via the frequency of the laser and the timing of any refracted signal degradation and measure the posistion of the ball that way at any, theoretical, point along the inside of the barrel... (this is, hardly, a new science my dad, for example, built hydrophones for towed arrays for the Navy Research Lab years ago using the same principles). But even if you DO know the acceleration of the ball, we've proven that it isn't correlated to accuracy... so what would the point be?
\m/

#11 cockerpunk

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Posted 02 May 2013 - 01:28 PM

yes, i am saying an electronic method to change the tension on a spring stack in a normal regulator already exists, and has been implemented in paintball before.

but doing the actual regulation, with an electrical actuator (peizo, linear motor etc etc) is prohibitively complex.
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#12 unfated33

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Posted 02 May 2013 - 01:35 PM


electrical control of mechanical regulators exist.

electrical actuated regulators essentially don't. and for good reason, way overly complicated.

the issue with closed loop velocity control has always been the chronograph. there isnt a terribly easy or good way to measure shot velocity on gun, in real time, with all the modern conveniences of barrels.


Interesting... you could run an optical cable down the outside of the barrel and let the acoustics cause, measurable, micro bends in the cable that you can track via the frequency of the laser and the timing of any refracted signal degradation and measure the posistion of the ball that way at any, theoretical, point along the inside of the barrel... (this is, hardly, a new science my dad, for example, built hydrophones for towed arrays for the Navy Research Lab years ago using the same principles). But even if you DO know the acceleration of the ball, we've proven that it isn't correlated to accuracy... so what would the point be?

I would imagine the point would be that, within a certain consistency range, you could have a marker that sets its firing velocity as a digital input to the board alone. People talk about liking to set their velocity right up to a field limit, but the truth is they are probably basing that as only a handful of shots across the chrono. In this method, you would have a system that could adjust marker settings to maintain field limit velocity as marker conditions change (probably with a very slow response window).
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#13 cockerpunk

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Posted 02 May 2013 - 01:45 PM

it would be nice to just tell your board you want to shoot 285 fps, and it just would.
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#14 Orange Chicken

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Posted 02 May 2013 - 01:57 PM

it would be nice to just tell your board you want to shoot 285 fps, and it just would.

Yeah this would be very nice. But wouldnt the boards/regulator be proprietary, or they would have a universal compatability, lest the days of buying aftermarket regulators will be gone.

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#15 unfated33

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Posted 02 May 2013 - 02:01 PM

it would be nice to just tell your board you want to shoot 285 fps, and it just would.

I would think that, if you have all major elements of the firing velocity in your control, you could also have the board back-calculate an estimate of your paint bore size. That is, if you can isolate the pressure changes to the bore from the changes to friction in the chamber, or that friction is such a slight contributor as to fall out.
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#16 Troy

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Posted 02 May 2013 - 02:28 PM

I would imagine the point would be that, within a certain consistency range, you could have a marker that sets its firing velocity as a digital input to the board alone. People talk about liking to set their velocity right up to a field limit, but the truth is they are probably basing that as only a handful of shots across the chrono. In this method, you would have a system that could adjust marker settings to maintain field limit velocity as marker conditions change (probably with a very slow response window).


it would be nice to just tell your board you want to shoot 285 fps, and it just would.


Ah, yes that would be cool... for some reason I got stuck in the accuracy box and didn't think of other helpful features. You could have the field set up with some kind of, wireless, speed limit system, so you could just show up and play... that would be pure win.
\m/

#17 Troy

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Posted 02 May 2013 - 02:36 PM


it would be nice to just tell your board you want to shoot 285 fps, and it just would.

I would think that, if you have all major elements of the firing velocity in your control, you could also have the board back-calculate an estimate of your paint bore size. That is, if you can isolate the pressure changes to the bore from the changes to friction in the chamber, or that friction is such a slight contributor as to fall out.


If you are taking a pressure reading in the breach, things like friction wouldn't matter. All barrels are about the same size (within a reasonable amount of certainty), and you could test to see the rate of pressure change. If you know the rate at which the valve fills the breach, and you know the rate at which the volume expands as the ball travels down the barrel, you may be able to estimate speed by watching the breach pressure rise and fall. You wouldn't need a proprietary barrel for that...
\m/

#18 silvere108

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Posted 03 May 2013 - 01:22 PM

Wouldn't need a proprietary barrel with an integrated virtue beam type sensor for velocity. Mounted say, in front of the feed neck. Wire it to the board via the same path as the eye wires. Should be a short jump from one of these to a pressure monitoring device like on the vanquish or new clone.

Type in required velocity, sensor checks, on a spool valve the pressure is just raised. Only part not currently present is electronic reg adjustment.
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#19 drg

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Posted 03 May 2013 - 05:02 PM

To a certain extent, electronic paintball gun firing systems are electronic regulators.
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#20 Snipez4664

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Posted 04 May 2013 - 12:08 AM

yes, i am saying an electronic method to change the tension on a spring stack in a normal regulator already exists, and has been implemented in paintball before.



When? I missed that


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#21 cockerpunk

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Posted 05 May 2013 - 08:14 PM


yes, i am saying an electronic method to change the tension on a spring stack in a normal regulator already exists, and has been implemented in paintball before.



When? I missed that


didn't angel air do that?
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#22 andrewthewookie

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Posted 05 May 2013 - 08:20 PM

I think the AIR system was just a fancy readout, and that was it. It still functioned as a regular regulator, they just swapped out a normal gauge for that LCD monstrosity.

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#23 Troy

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Posted 06 May 2013 - 09:22 AM

I think the AIR system was just a fancy readout, and that was it. It still functioned as a regular regulator, they just swapped out a normal gauge for that LCD monstrosity.


I believe this is true...

To me, creating an electronic reg would be as easy as replacing the normal spring with a pressurized air chamber and having an air bypass into the tank with two solenoid valves allowing pressure to be increased or decreased at will.
\m/

#24 cockerpunk

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Posted 06 May 2013 - 09:25 AM


I think the AIR system was just a fancy readout, and that was it. It still functioned as a regular regulator, they just swapped out a normal gauge for that LCD monstrosity.


I believe this is true...

To me, creating an electronic reg would be as easy as replacing the normal spring with a pressurized air chamber and having an air bypass into the tank with two solenoid valves allowing pressure to be increased or decreased at will.


which wouldn't work for shit cause solinoid valves, esp of that size and magnitude, take longer then 20 ms to cycle.
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#25 Eskimo

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Posted 06 May 2013 - 12:11 PM

You have to remember, the solenoid in your marker works great because the regulator has reduced the pressure acting on it down to anywhere between 100 ~ 250 PSI depending on the marker, creating a solenoid that will accurately control 900PSI coming at it is defiantly a much harder system, remember to change the pressure of that gas you are going to need to do some form change, and that requires energy to do so. You dont want to be burning your batteries trying to turn motors and create strong enough magnetic fields to bring the pressure down on one side and close off the other.

That being said, If a tank had a regulator right off the bonnet which was already reduced down to ~400~ Psi, im sure you could create a electronic system to bring it down to 150, then cycle it through the marker. it may not be perfect, and im sure there would be fluctuations, but thats a start right?

Could you possibly have a small motor turn the velocity knob, by doing so you could accurately record how many degree's of the knob you have turned which can change the velocity

For example, you can use an allen key to turn the knob into the general area of FPS you want it, Say the target is 280FPS and your chrono averages about 278 FPS.

You could then go to your board, and tell the mini motor to turn a smaller velocity knob (located above or inside the big velocity adjuster) by 0.5 degree's tighter (thus up)
you could use a electronic system to accurately fine tune the velocity control.

Edited by Eskimo, 06 May 2013 - 12:18 PM.

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#26 Troy

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Posted 06 May 2013 - 04:32 PM



I think the AIR system was just a fancy readout, and that was it. It still functioned as a regular regulator, they just swapped out a normal gauge for that LCD monstrosity.


I believe this is true...

To me, creating an electronic reg would be as easy as replacing the normal spring with a pressurized air chamber and having an air bypass into the tank with two solenoid valves allowing pressure to be increased or decreased at will.


which wouldn't work for shit cause solinoid valves, esp of that size and magnitude, take longer then 20 ms to cycle.


Well then it's just a matter of decreasing the flow rate to where the valve's dwell is no longer a problem... it's not like it has to adjust between every shot, it just has to get it right once.
\m/

#27 Troy

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Posted 06 May 2013 - 04:38 PM

That being said, If a tank had a regulator right off the bonnet which was already reduced down to ~400~ Psi, im sure you could create a electronic system to bring it down to 150, then cycle it through the marker. it may not be perfect, and im sure there would be fluctuations, but thats a start right?


Sometimes I forget that not everyone is shooting a 400 psi tank... :(

Could you possibly have a small motor turn the velocity knob, by doing so you could accurately record how many degree's of the knob you have turned which can change the velocity


A rotary solenoid would be perfect for this... you can dial in the exact amount of turns (or degrees of turns).
\m/

#28 ratzes

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Posted 06 May 2013 - 07:18 PM

Perhaps off topic, but I wondered about software that would adjust the dwell based on a model of how long and consistently a regulator chamber took to recharge. Anybody know how velocity tends to fluctuate given 1 shot at a time vs burst firing and if this deviation is a function of the regulator fully recharging or static friction of o-rings, etc...?

#29 drg

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Posted 07 May 2013 - 06:08 AM

On the fly velocity adjusting would be best accomplished by adjusting the marker's operating parameters (esp dwell). Like I said, our electronic markers are basically electronic regulators which we use to regulate the velocity of the paintball. We are electronically regulating gas pressure to accomplish that.

An electronic pressure regulator could work on exactly the same principles, but would be in effect redundant.

Edited by drg, 07 May 2013 - 06:10 AM.

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#30 UV Halo

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Posted 07 May 2013 - 10:27 AM

I think the AIR system was just a fancy readout, and that was it. It still functioned as a regular regulator, they just swapped out a normal gauge for that LCD monstrosity.




I think the AIR system was just a fancy readout, and that was it. It still functioned as a regular regulator, they just swapped out a normal gauge for that LCD monstrosity.


I believe this is true...

To me, creating an electronic reg would be as easy as replacing the normal spring with a pressurized air chamber and having an air bypass into the tank with two solenoid valves allowing pressure to be increased or decreased at will.


I think about the Angel AIR this way- it's a smart gauge that provides input and output pressure levels and, estimates the number of shots remaining to within +/- 10% (after calibrating). I think there is merit to this type of system however, it needs to be more accurate, and smaller, and ruggedized.

#31 Troy

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Posted 07 May 2013 - 11:21 AM

On the fly velocity adjusting would be best accomplished by adjusting the marker's operating parameters (esp dwell). Like I said, our electronic markers are basically electronic regulators which we use to regulate the velocity of the paintball. We are electronically regulating gas pressure to accomplish that.

An electronic pressure regulator could work on exactly the same principles, but would be in effect redundant.


I think we've seen good evidence that the best systems (efficiency wise) are the ones that regulate dwell dynamically... using electronics to add or reduce tension on the piston in a regulator is an elegant and efficient way of metering the marker's speed without screwing up a marker's efficiency.

Edited by Troy, 07 May 2013 - 11:23 AM.

\m/

#32 Eskimo

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Posted 08 May 2013 - 12:45 PM


Could you possibly have a small motor turn the velocity knob, by doing so you could accurately record how many degree's of the knob you have turned which can change the velocity


A rotary solenoid would be perfect for this... you can dial in the exact amount of turns (or degrees of turns).


Curious, but as you start to shoot the gas in your regulator reaches higher temperatures, thus when cycled achieves slightly higher FPS on average,
you could set your velocity and fine tune it, Then the rotary adjuster could on the fly increase or decrease the volume of the regulator as your Cycles per second changes.

so lets say at 0 CPS the dial is set. (ie when you chrono)
at 5 CPS the dial turns in slightly reducing the volume to reduce overall FPS (that being counteracted by the increase in temp and pressure of the flowing gases)

I wonder if something like that could reduce "shoot up" as the gas from the tank heats as it cycles faster and faster.

(it would probably Eat your battery but hey, its a idea right?)

Edited by Eskimo, 08 May 2013 - 12:46 PM.

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#33 tyronejk

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Posted 08 May 2013 - 07:38 PM

I don't know what you're referring to when you say the gas heats up. It should be
Mid-post ninja! nvm you're talking about how the cool air from the tank returns to room (or outdoor) temperature while sitting in the regulator.

#34 Troy

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Posted 09 May 2013 - 11:59 AM



Could you possibly have a small motor turn the velocity knob, by doing so you could accurately record how many degree's of the knob you have turned which can change the velocity


A rotary solenoid would be perfect for this... you can dial in the exact amount of turns (or degrees of turns).


Curious, but as you start to shoot the gas in your regulator reaches higher temperatures, thus when cycled achieves slightly higher FPS on average,
you could set your velocity and fine tune it, Then the rotary adjuster could on the fly increase or decrease the volume of the regulator as your Cycles per second changes.

so lets say at 0 CPS the dial is set. (ie when you chrono)
at 5 CPS the dial turns in slightly reducing the volume to reduce overall FPS (that being counteracted by the increase in temp and pressure of the flowing gases)

I wonder if something like that could reduce "shoot up" as the gas from the tank heats as it cycles faster and faster.

(it would probably Eat your battery but hey, its a idea right?)


You could fine tune it, but you're right, they eat up a lot of energy. Personally, i don't see a good ROI with doing those types of adjustments.
\m/




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