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#1 asthmaticrhino

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Posted 31 May 2013 - 04:30 PM

So with my friends acquisition of an apex tip. began thinking about other things that put spin on a spherical object, and my mind immediately jumped to a hop up system, found in airsoft guns. It works essentially the same as an apex, a rubber nub deflects the top of the projectile, causing backspin, as shown here
Posted Image
As you can see, It is integrated into the breach and acts as a detent of sorts. If adjusted properly, the results are a flat, straight shot with none of the initial "breaking" of an apex, since the ball still has the entire length of the barrel to travel.
So my question is, why hasn't anyone (except maybe Jack Rice with the sweep bolt, same principle, justs different method.) Tried this? Is it because of patents, or is it simply not feasible in a paintball gun? Would it cause excessive breaks?
I believe i could work, If it were either installed with a barrel in front of the detent or it itself acted as the detent. What do you think Punkworks? Feasible or half baked?
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#2 Fssto

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Posted 31 May 2013 - 04:33 PM

Try it man. It looks great. Build it.

#3 andrewthewookie

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Posted 31 May 2013 - 04:39 PM

I doubt a paintball would be able to maintain that level of spin through a barrel. You can certainly try putting backspin on a paintball, but it would have to be a significant amount, I believe the Apex is somewhere around 25,000-30,000rpm or something like that.

except maybe Jack Rice with the sweep bolt, same principle, justs different method.

Even Jack Rice with the sweep bolt. He's got the right idea about what he wants to achieve with the paint, but his method just doesn't work.

Edited by andrewthewookie, 31 May 2013 - 04:39 PM.

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#4 asthmaticrhino

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Posted 31 May 2013 - 04:39 PM

Try it man. It looks great. Build it.

I would, but I have neither the skill, materials, time or money to build such a contraption :/ If I did, i'd already be down in a machine shop with patent papers being filed as I work.

Edited by asthmaticrhino, 31 May 2013 - 04:41 PM.

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#5 asthmaticrhino

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Posted 31 May 2013 - 04:47 PM

I doubt a paintball would be able to maintain that level of spin through a barrel. You can certainly try putting backspin on a paintball, but it would have to be a significant amount, I believe the Apex is somewhere around 25,000-30,000rpm or something like that.


Hmm. So is it a question of friction from the barrel resisting, or just the nature of a paintball with the insides being a mass of liquid, or a combination of both? I think it can be done, it's a very delicate balance between enough spin and just dirtying your barrel. Maybe If it was where a barrel front and back are normally joined, Then the spin could be achieved without the barrel significantly detracting from it?
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#6 riddler

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Posted 31 May 2013 - 04:49 PM

Galactic Systems Automag Z body.

#7 Danny D

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Posted 31 May 2013 - 05:00 PM

This may work:

1. attach barrel adaptor to marker
2. attach or jerry rig apex to barrel adaptor
3. attach main barrel to business end of apex

At least this might be an easy way to show proof of concept if it does work.

#8 Dogg3

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Posted 31 May 2013 - 06:38 PM

Maybe If it was where a barrel front and back are normally joined, Then the spin could be achieved without the barrel significantly detracting from it?

If you want to take this to its logical conclusion, put an Apex in between a barrel front and back.

Oh and in case this isn't unprofessional enough yet.

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#9 cockerpunk

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Posted 31 May 2013 - 08:39 PM

the old automag Z body was designed to do this.
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#10 PREDATOR 47

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Posted 31 May 2013 - 09:26 PM

the old automag Z body was designed to do this.

Question is, did it work? Old guns tour, perhaps?

Edited by PREDATOR 47, 31 May 2013 - 09:26 PM.


#11 SOUP

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Posted 31 May 2013 - 09:39 PM

here is a decent shooting video of a galactic Z. They're pretty neat.


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#12 bowmasta

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Posted 01 June 2013 - 10:45 AM

Cooper T made "Flatline" type bolts for Sheridans. It was basically a bolt with the hole drilled on the bottom rather than on the center of the bolt face.

I don't know if they worked because nobody i know has one/ had one.
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#13 asthmaticrhino

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Posted 01 June 2013 - 01:53 PM

New thought : What if a sweep bolt type system and a hop up system were used in conjunction? Would that have enough effect to get anywhere close to the effective range an apex does?
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#14 tyronejk

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Posted 01 June 2013 - 05:47 PM

Looking at the Z-body vid, it looks like the hop-up system makes the gun really inaccurate. I'm guessing it's because of the variation between paintballs' surface friction coefficient and the oblong shape. The direction of spin on an oblong paintball is probably a big factor in the trajectory.

#15 drg

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Posted 03 June 2013 - 05:13 AM

Cooper T made "Flatline" type bolts for Sheridans. It was basically a bolt with the hole drilled on the bottom rather than on the center of the bolt face.

I don't know if they worked because nobody i know has one/ had one.


It works but to my reckoning it's too inconsistent to be useful. Pump may have a different opinion than mine, he likes raining long range clouds even if every other ball doesn't spin.
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#16 brycelarson

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Posted 03 June 2013 - 07:50 AM

Cooper T made "Flatline" type bolts for Sheridans. It was basically a bolt with the hole drilled on the bottom rather than on the center of the bolt face.

I don't know if they worked because nobody i know has one/ had one.


we tested one back in our pre high speed camera days. Didn't effect the trajectory of a bench mounted gun's paint. The apex works by jamming a 2" rubber strip into the path of the ball - that's the scale of interaction you need to get the 25k of backspin on the ball. Low blow bolts of any sort simply don't have a long enough duration and high enough scale of interaction to spin the ball. The instant that the ball moves away from the bolt the air pressure begins to even out filling the space behind the ball - which means that the flow of air on the bottom of the ball ceases to be greater than the air pressing on the top of the ball.

#17 pShore

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Posted 18 June 2013 - 07:05 PM


Maybe If it was where a barrel front and back are normally joined, Then the spin could be achieved without the barrel significantly detracting from it?

If you want to take this to its logical conclusion, put an Apex in between a barrel front and back.



I think you'd have to, and with a super-overbore front to keep it from slowing the ball. A matched barrel would totally drag the spin down. Just using the front, post-spin inducer, as a sound suppressor... (isn't that the case anyway? lol)
But I imagine it would be ugly. Issues with variable paint size/shape as well.

#18 CrowsFeast1

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Posted 03 August 2013 - 11:24 PM

I used an old Brass Eagle stingray the other day (has been sitting around at the local field) which uses a ball bearing mounted at the bottom as a detent. I don't know if it was the bearing, or just the lines of the gun necessarily but I found I had to take aim and then lift the tip a significant amount in order to hit what I wanted.



#19 Punisher068

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Posted 09 August 2013 - 02:20 PM

Ive seen a Zmag at work,yes they are inaccurate at longer ranges,any type of device that adds extra spin on a ball will be inaccurate as soon as the ball slows the spin will cause misdirection,my main reason to ditch my Apex tips,defeated the purpose of adding extra range

Add a small dab of nail polish on the end of an overbored  barrel,it will create the same effect as an Apex



#20 cockerpunk

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Posted 09 August 2013 - 03:35 PM

Ive seen a Zmag at work,yes they are inaccurate at longer ranges,any type of device that adds extra spin on a ball will be inaccurate as soon as the ball slows the spin will cause misdirection,my main reason to ditch my Apex tips,defeated the purpose of adding extra range

Add a small dab of nail polish on the end of an overbored  barrel,it will create the same effect as an Apex

 

we have test data that disputes much of this.


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And yes, Gordon is the sexiest manifestation of "to the front."


#21 spankopotomous=paintball

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Posted 13 August 2013 - 01:49 PM

Say you use a very large overbore, say .698 control bore, and carefully place a strip of electrical tape on the top length of the barrel. Would that induce enough spin on the ball, or like the airsoft diagram shows, impart too much spin?


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#22 itsme123

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Posted 13 August 2013 - 05:20 PM

If you are going to have the ball go through the barrel while maintaining the spin, I would over bore pretty heavily.


Edited by itsme123, 13 August 2013 - 05:20 PM.

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#23 brycelarson

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Posted 14 August 2013 - 07:44 AM

We have footage of a ball coming out of an apex - it's rotating at something near 25-35,000 RPM.  Some electrical tape just isn't going to get you the magnitude of effect you need to get significant movement on the ball.  Think about how far out of line an apex makes the ball fly - at max the ball angles significantly out of the barrel.  To get an effective spin you need to slam the ball into a bumper at a pretty big angle - OR as in the flatline, make the barrel's curve force it into the texture.

 

Less interaction than those types of systems and you're not actually doing anything.



#24 cockerpunk

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Posted 14 August 2013 - 01:51 PM

Say you use a very large overbore, say .698 control bore, and carefully place a strip of electrical tape on the top length of the barrel. Would that induce enough spin on the ball, or like the airsoft diagram shows, impart too much spin?

you should try it and report back


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And yes, Gordon is the sexiest manifestation of "to the front."


#25 FreeEnterprise

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Posted 29 August 2013 - 12:18 PM

I love backspin... And have been experimenting with ways to get MORE spin, and more "consistent" spin with the current systems available. 

 

By far the most interesting thing I have come up with that actually works really well is the MonsterSpin barrel (I have lots of video on youtube showing how it works). 

 

The problem with the Apex is the way you have to increase the ramp to get more spin. As you essentially slam the paintball into a rubber ramp, and go from zero spin to full spin in less than 2 inches... The less you hit the ramp, the less spin you get. Of course you want to be able to get the most spin you can without breaking the paint, but you also want a consistent shot...

 

If you set the Apex on 9 clicks, you are really hammering the paint with the rubber tip, which causes other issues. I don't have a high speed camera, but I could swear that the paintball after hitting the ramp at 9 clicks is "hopping" up and down out of the barrel, as it hits that ramp so hard. It quickly evens out and flies well, but that hop affects your accuracy. 

 

The flatline on the other hand, creates the spin at the beginning of the barrel and by the time it gets to the end of the barrel it has started to level out, but they are such large bore barrels, that the accuracy isn't that great. (it is decent, but not as good as a tighter bore barrel). 

 

 

So I put the Apex 2 on the flatline. Set the Apex 2 at 4 clicks, and let the flatline do its spin (which is about the same as an apex 2 at 5 or 6 clicks) and then hit it again with the apex 2 ramp set on 4 clicks. 

 

What this does is double spin the paint, which you would think would break the paint, but actually  it just evens out the spin better, creating a smoother more consistenly spinning shot. So you can dial in the amount of spin you want to add to the paintball. 

 

Clearly good "spinning" paint matters with any backspin system, I find high gloss shelled paint works best (the dull shelled paints like formula 13 aren't that great, they work, but don't fly as consistently as other paints I have tried) and you want a fill that is even inside... (aka fresh paint) as paint sits, it gets thicker at the bottom of the paintball and will fly strange when spinning.

 

The issue of the flatline's bore size is still a problem, but I fixed that by putting a piece of electrical tape on the inside of the adapter where the paintball first pushes through. This creates less air pass through and gives you a more consistent shot and puts more of the air pressure on the paintball instead of around the paintball and down the barrel.  I have used a single piece of electrical tape on the inside for an entire day of playing with no problems. But, I have no clue how long one would last...

 

When I get time, and some good paint... I will do some testing to show what I am finding. But, it easily shoots an extra 25-50+ feet "flatter" than an Apex or Flatline by themselves. So with both of those systems you can get a 60 foot flat shot. But with my MonsterSpin barrel I get 100+ foot flat shots! So using a scope or red dot becomes something you can actually do with this barrel as it works on so many different distances. 

Here is some game footage from this summer using this system. 

 

 

link for mobile

http://www.youtube.c...h?v=_wJZfHn5w-c

 

 

here are other videos I did last year. 

 

 

link for mobile

http://www.youtube.c...h?v=uJ3UWJdMdbU

 

and shooting flat or flipping the Flatline upside down, then the apex right side up... They actually cancel out each other and it flies like a regular paintball!

 

 

link for mobile

 

http://www.youtube.c...h?v=OYjg--bWGUg


Edited by FreeEnterprise, 29 August 2013 - 12:23 PM.


#26 Cookybiscuit

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Posted 30 August 2013 - 12:04 PM

^When I suggested it I didn't think you'd end up using it in an actual game. Either way, its still not enough, duct tape another two Apex 2's on there and see what happens, more spin is more better, eventually you'll be able to just set up a mirror on it and do this.

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#27 Jawz

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Posted 01 September 2013 - 09:59 AM

I doubt a paintball would be able to maintain that level of spin through a barrel. You can certainly try putting backspin on a paintball, but it would have to be a significant amount, I believe the Apex is somewhere around 25,000-30,000rpm or something like that.
 

except maybe Jack Rice with the sweep bolt, same principle, justs different method.

Even Jack Rice with the sweep bolt. He's got the right idea about what he wants to achieve with the paint, but his method just doesn't work.

 

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#28 swiftblade13

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Posted 06 September 2013 - 11:09 AM

 

I doubt a paintball would be able to maintain that level of spin through a barrel. You can certainly try putting backspin on a paintball, but it would have to be a significant amount, I believe the Apex is somewhere around 25,000-30,000rpm or something like that.
 

except maybe Jack Rice with the sweep bolt, same principle, justs different method.

Even Jack Rice with the sweep bolt. He's got the right idea about what he wants to achieve with the paint, but his method just doesn't work.

 

shhhh... He'll hunt you down and harvest your organs...

 

 it doesn't the simple fact that the paintball still has to go through the barrel means it CAN'T work



#29 swiftblade13

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Posted 06 September 2013 - 11:13 AM

I love backspin... And have been experimenting with ways to get MORE spin, and more "consistent" spin with the current systems available. 

 

By far the most interesting thing I have come up with that actually works really well is the MonsterSpin barrel (I have lots of video on youtube showing how it works). 

 

The problem with the Apex is the way you have to increase the ramp to get more spin. As you essentially slam the paintball into a rubber ramp, and go from zero spin to full spin in less than 2 inches... The less you hit the ramp, the less spin you get. Of course you want to be able to get the most spin you can without breaking the paint, but you also want a consistent shot...

 

If you set the Apex on 9 clicks, you are really hammering the paint with the rubber tip, which causes other issues. I don't have a high speed camera, but I could swear that the paintball after hitting the ramp at 9 clicks is "hopping" up and down out of the barrel, as it hits that ramp so hard. It quickly evens out and flies well, but that hop affects your accuracy. 

 

The flatline on the other hand, creates the spin at the beginning of the barrel and by the time it gets to the end of the barrel it has started to level out, but they are such large bore barrels, that the accuracy isn't that great. (it is decent, but not as good as a tighter bore barrel). 

 

 

So I put the Apex 2 on the flatline. Set the Apex 2 at 4 clicks, and let the flatline do its spin (which is about the same as an apex 2 at 5 or 6 clicks) and then hit it again with the apex 2 ramp set on 4 clicks. 

 

What this does is double spin the paint, which you would think would break the paint, but actually  it just evens out the spin better, creating a smoother more consistenly spinning shot. So you can dial in the amount of spin you want to add to the paintball. 

 

Clearly good "spinning" paint matters with any backspin system, I find high gloss shelled paint works best (the dull shelled paints like formula 13 aren't that great, they work, but don't fly as consistently as other paints I have tried) and you want a fill that is even inside... (aka fresh paint) as paint sits, it gets thicker at the bottom of the paintball and will fly strange when spinning.

 

The issue of the flatline's bore size is still a problem, but I fixed that by putting a piece of electrical tape on the inside of the adapter where the paintball first pushes through. This creates less air pass through and gives you a more consistent shot and puts more of the air pressure on the paintball instead of around the paintball and down the barrel.  I have used a single piece of electrical tape on the inside for an entire day of playing with no problems. But, I have no clue how long one would last...

 

When I get time, and some good paint... I will do some testing to show what I am finding. But, it easily shoots an extra 25-50+ feet "flatter" than an Apex or Flatline by themselves. So with both of those systems you can get a 60 foot flat shot. But with my MonsterSpin barrel I get 100+ foot flat shots! So using a scope or red dot becomes something you can actually do with this barrel as it works on so many different distances. 

Here is some game footage from this summer using this system. 

 

 

link for mobile

http://www.youtube.c...h?v=_wJZfHn5w-c

 

 

here are other videos I did last year. 

 

 

link for mobile

http://www.youtube.c...h?v=uJ3UWJdMdbU

 

and shooting flat or flipping the Flatline upside down, then the apex right side up... They actually cancel out each other and it flies like a regular paintball!

 

 

link for mobile

 

http://www.youtube.c...h?v=OYjg--bWGUg

wow finally a legit reason to go tippmann



#30 FreeEnterprise

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Posted 18 February 2014 - 08:54 AM

New MonsterSpin barrel videos. 

 

 

And I kept breaking paint this winter in the cold using my J&J and Apex, (I hadn't been using my MonsterSpin as I assumed it would break paint in the cold...). 

 

 

But, you know about assumptions. 

 

So I decided to bust it out for our event this past Saturday. I got a bunch of paints and shot them at 115 feet to see if I would get any breaks in below freezing temps. 

 

 

 

Not a single break. And interestingly the tournament paint (over 2 years old) was by far the best shooting... 

Well, I had about half a hopper of that paint leftover, so I put it in my gun for our first game on Saturday in the snow... Whoa... It was insane. I was unstoppable, and literally TORE through the other team with my MonsterSpin barrel. The game started with a full out rush from the other team, with one of their players running right at me, and the second guy I shot was over 150 feet away from me! I pushed forward, and broke their defenses and caved in their opposition while landing perfect shots directly on my enemies, and....

 

Well, you will have to wait to see how it ends. I hope to have it finished by this weekend, or sooner...

 

This barrel really is insane... If you have a flatline laying around, you should try it, as this is the first paintball gun I have ever used that shoots like a real gun without the annoying "arch" of typical paintball barrels, even out to 150 feet away! 

 

Imagine a barrel where you could actually USE optics... Well, that is what this barrel does with good paint! Flat shots, that are predictable at range, and it even works in below freezing temperatures! (It was 22 degrees F on Saturday and we had 6+ inches of snow on the ground in the woods). 






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