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LPR Question for Spool Valves


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#1 crich775

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Posted 17 June 2013 - 12:56 PM

Hey all, I've been thinking about this for a few days now and I am at a crossroads, I have been looking at the Reflex Rail, and the DM series markers, as of now the only spool valves I have shot and owned are all shockers(not withstanding a few test shots here and there). What I am wondering is, since if you run an LPR on the shocker it can only reduce the pressure for running the bolt by about 20psi maximum, and provides almost no noticeable benefit, is the idea of a DM vs a Reflex Rail the same thing? If the LPR on the DM is a major improvement then I can see why it is the higher and and by such a huge amount price-wise, however I keep coming back to when i tested LPR's on my shockers and saw nothing major in shot quality and efficiency.
I am thinking that because I am more familiar with the shocker bolt system there is some glaring thing that I am completely missing as to why the LPR is important, but I figured that a second opinion couldn't hurt.
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#2 BurningPlaydoh

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Posted 17 June 2013 - 01:27 PM

The LPR controls bolt movement in the DM. Check ZDSPB for animations of matrix and shocker bolts, they show the HP and LP air paths.

Edited by BurningPlaydoh, 17 June 2013 - 01:27 PM.


#3 andrewthewookie

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Posted 17 June 2013 - 01:32 PM

The LPR controls bolt movement in the DM. Check ZDSPB for animations of matrix and shocker bolts, they show the HP and LP air paths.

He's not asking what the LPR does (I'm gonna throw out a guess here and say he already knows what an LPR does, given his post). He's asking why some spools need an LPR, and others don't.

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#4 Old Dude PB

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Posted 17 June 2013 - 02:11 PM

  • There's an efficiency benefit, because with an LPR, you're using lower-pressure air to move your bolt. In Mike's reviews, the 2011 Reflex Rail shot 7+ pods from a 68/45. The DM13 shot 10. 30+% better seems significant to me.
  • The LPR keeps you from accidentally over-pressurizing your solenoid. That's one reason the vanilla, (non-Reflex) Rail uses the slower, more robust pancake solenoid...so new players (the Rail's target market) don't blow their noids.
  • For twiddlers, you can tune your gun, balancing LPR pressure and dwell to adjust the feel, consistency, and efficiency...to some degree. As you saw with your Shockers, the incremental change might not be enough for you to feel like the added expense is worth it for a new DM. That's a question of personal preference. (Although with DM and PM prices in the used market being what they are, I don't see a reason to buy either variety of Rail, unless you absolutely must have a new gun.)


#5 Panda's Revenge

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Posted 17 June 2013 - 02:30 PM

LPRs on a spool are usually to keep the noid from blowing up.

#6 riddler

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Posted 17 June 2013 - 02:34 PM

LPRs on a spool are usually to keep the noid from blowing up.


to a degree, it also controls cycle speed, though that can be mitigated if engineered intelligently with the right pressure to surface area ratio.

There's an efficiency benefit, because with an LPR, you're using lower-pressure air to move your bolt. In Mike's reviews, the 2011 Reflex Rail shot 7+ pods from a 68/45. The DM13 shot 10. 30+% better seems significant to me.



there's a lot more of a difference between those markers than a mere LPR. It's just not a 1:1 comparison.

Edited by riddler, 17 June 2013 - 02:35 PM.


#7 Old Dude PB

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Posted 17 June 2013 - 03:02 PM

there's a lot more of a difference between those markers than a mere LPR. It's just not a 1:1 comparison.


OK, I'll bite. Like what? For differences, I'm seeing an LPR, an angled fitting on the HPR, some different colorways, and, that's about it. Same Hyper 3 reg, same operating pressure, same ASA, same barrel, same board, same feedneck, same grips, and pretty much the same bolt. What am I missing? Not trying to pick a fight, just wondering what else the extra $800 gets you...

(Full disclosure: I own a PM8 and love it.)

Edited by Old Dude PB, 17 June 2013 - 03:10 PM.


#8 Troy

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Posted 17 June 2013 - 03:23 PM


there's a lot more of a difference between those markers than a mere LPR. It's just not a 1:1 comparison.


OK, I'll bite. Like what? For differences, I'm seeing an LPR, an angled fitting on the HPR, some different colorways, and, that's about it. Same Hyper 3 reg, same operating pressure, same ASA, same barrel, same board, same feedneck, same grips, and pretty much the same bolt. What am I missing? Not trying to pick a fight, just wondering what else the extra $800 gets you...

(Full disclosure: I own a PM8 and love it.)


I own a PM8 and love it as well... erganomically, I think it's the best gun Dye has ever made which the OPer can pick up btw, easily at $350. I'm not selling mine, you'll have to pry it out of my cold, dead hands, but plenty of people are selling them for cheap.

The rail, imo, is not a matrix because it's a blow forward spool while the matrix bolt is a balanced (Technically, it isn't balanced, but it has a slight forward bias... but when you tune it, you are balancing the spool) spool.

In the rail, the pressure in the dump chamber is held back by an air sear, when released it uses it's full pressure to drive the bolt forward.

Posted Image

In the matrix, the LP air drives the bolt both forward and backward. This allows you to open the bolt and close it more slowly, thus lowering the sound signature, decreasing the vibration and using less air to move the bolt.

Posted Image

So it is like comparing apples to oranges.

Edited by Troy, 17 June 2013 - 03:27 PM.

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#9 Old Dude PB

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Posted 17 June 2013 - 03:46 PM

So it is like comparing apples to oranges.


Right...I understand the difference between a balanced spool and a blow forward design. And I chuckled when Proto took the "Matrix" name off the Rail. I guess I'm just thinking about this on a hands-on level relative to the OP's question.

#10 crich775

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Posted 17 June 2013 - 11:59 PM

For the record, I'm not looking at either gun to buy, it was more just a thought that popped into my head and due to noe being incredibly familiar with any of the Dye designs I figured asking the crowd would help.
I'm perfectly happy with my shockers as well, and as far as i can tell, it is simply that the LPR in the design of the DM helps more than the it would in the shocker.
If I'm correct in my napkin engineer thinking, it is the same basic function as the solenoid inserts that drop the pressure on the shocker, just slightly more refined and tuneable. and that is why it would help more, the solenoid inserts already drop the pressure that functions the bolt and therefore the LPR already has its job done, and cant drop it much more.

Edited by crich775, 18 June 2013 - 12:02 AM.

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#11 Troy

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Posted 18 June 2013 - 09:49 AM

For the record, I'm not looking at either gun to buy, it was more just a thought that popped into my head and due to noe being incredibly familiar with any of the Dye designs I figured asking the crowd would help.
I'm perfectly happy with my shockers as well, and as far as i can tell, it is simply that the LPR in the design of the DM helps more than the it would in the shocker.
If I'm correct in my napkin engineer thinking, it is the same basic function as the solenoid inserts that drop the pressure on the shocker, just slightly more refined and tuneable. and that is why it would help more, the solenoid inserts already drop the pressure that functions the bolt and therefore the LPR already has its job done, and cant drop it much more.


You'll have to excuse me, because I haven't owned a shocker before... the closest I've gotten is a quest (which does have an LPR). How do the solenoid inserts drop the pressure?
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#12 andrewthewookie

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Posted 18 June 2013 - 11:03 AM

They don't. The shocker is designed with a very tiny hole at the air transfer point between the reg and air transfer tube that feeds the solenoid to cut down on pressure loss to the solenoid when the gun is firing. This also has the added downside of starving the solenoid at higher rates of fire, which is where a pressure drop could come from. However, that is not an ideal situation. When working normally, the solenoid is getting the same pressure as every other part of the gun.

Edited by andrewthewookie, 18 June 2013 - 12:17 PM.

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#13 Egomaniacal

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Posted 19 June 2013 - 01:32 PM

It's worth noting that the air passage constrictions were significantly mitigated on the Luxe, so it's not terribly relevant to the topic of conversation.


There's an efficiency benefit, because with an LPR, you're using lower-pressure air to move your bolt. In Mike's reviews, the 2011 Reflex Rail shot 7+ pods from a 68/45. The DM13 shot 10. 30+% better seems significant to me.


The pressure of the air being used isn't particularly important - what's important is the force being exerted on the bolt. If you do the math out (F=P*A and V=A*L) you'll see that to get the same force from two different pressures requires the same amount of air from your tank (neglecting a few details which actually tip the scales in favor of no LPR).

The differing chamber volumes and operating pressure between the DM and PMR alone make efficiency numbers uncomparable.

The LPR keeps you from accidentally over-pressurizing your solenoid. That's one reason the vanilla, (non-Reflex) Rail uses the slower, more robust pancake solenoid...so new players (the Rail's target market) don't blow their noids.


The original reasoning for the LPR was that the solenoids people wanted to use simply couldn't run at the marker's operating pressures. When guns were running 200 psi it was hard to find a solenoid that would run at that pressure. It is, as you say, also a safety feature - you can't adjust your HPR and blow your solenoid. But you can still adjust your LPR and blow it. The other reason was the regulator scheme in paintball hadn't quite been worked out, and regs were less than reliable. Putting dual (or tri) regulation made sure you didn't lose your noid if one of the regs failed. But reg failure is less frequent these days (especially on guns with filters) so it's not as much of an issue anymore.

The main reason for using the pancake noid in the Rail is that Dye has become cheap. I doubt the valve's proof pressure is any better than an OTS solution.

For twiddlers, you can tune your gun, balancing LPR pressure and dwell to adjust the feel, consistency, and efficiency...to some degree. As you saw with your Shockers, the incremental change might not be enough for you to feel like the added expense is worth it for a new DM. That's a question of personal preference. (Although with DM and PM prices in the used market being what they are, I don't see a reason to buy either variety of Rail, unless you absolutely must have a new gun.)


Used Shockers are damn cheap too, and the lack of LPR means one less thing to go wrong.

Edited by Egomaniacal, 19 June 2013 - 01:35 PM.

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#14 cockerpunk

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Posted 27 June 2013 - 01:33 PM

weather a spool needs a LPR or not, is down to the bolt sail dimentions.


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#15 TippmannPlayer97

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Posted 28 June 2013 - 07:07 PM

Whether a spool needs an LPR or not, is down to the bolt sail dimensions

Fixed... Your grammar disturbs me, not trying to pick a fight but... really.


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#16 andrewthewookie

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Posted 28 June 2013 - 07:18 PM

First off, correcting someone's grammar, especially in a passive aggressive manner constitutes trolling/flaming (it's in the rules), and secondly it's not smart to do that to a mod...

 


Edited by andrewthewookie, 28 June 2013 - 07:18 PM.

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#17 TippmannPlayer97

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Posted 28 June 2013 - 11:07 PM

Really? that counts as trolling? I'm a bit of a spelling nazi so sorry if i came off as rude


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#18 gibbeepbroxzor

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Posted 29 June 2013 - 12:11 AM

He could also be on mobile and thats what autocorrect did. And he didnt bother to check it.



#19 cockerpunk

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Posted 01 July 2013 - 09:09 AM

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The ultimate truth in paintball is that the interaction between the gun and the player is far and away the largest factor in accuracy, consistency, and reliability.

And yes, Gordon is the sexiest manifestation of "to the front."





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