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#101 Talucci

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Posted 30 December 2013 - 06:42 PM

Jack should not be so sensitive to people critiquing his products. Every company has buyers that complain about faults or flaws that seem minute. If he stopped advertising these revolutionary accuracy claims then critics (TechPB) would stop busting Alien's balls. Bob Long claims his gun are accurate but he does not say his new engine puts a revolutionary backspin on the paintball that gets tighter groupings at 75 feet (for example)... 

 

We are not idiots, do not treat us as such. I'm glad Jack came out with another marker, but don't tell me it's more accurate than any other marker out there. 



#102 bigx

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Posted 30 December 2013 - 06:45 PM

I have a very large bladder and accurate winer. It allows me to piss my signature into the snow. None of this mediocre nickname nonsense.

This is exactly what marketing guns has come down too. a dick waving contest. You can say all the stuff you want but until you whip it out wave it around and prove it to the world everyone will doubt you. 


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#103 Ultimatefinn

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Posted 30 December 2013 - 07:21 PM

I have a very large bladder and accurate winer. It allows me to piss my signature into the snow. None of this mediocre nickname nonsense.
This is exactly what marketing guns has come down too. a dick waving contest. You can say all the stuff you want but until you whip it out wave it around and prove it to the world everyone will doubt you.

You just made my sig. Congratulations
This is exactly what marketing guns has come down too. a dick waving contest. You can say all the stuff you want but until you whip it out wave it around and prove it to the world everyone will doubt you. -bigx

#104 LegionPB

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Posted 30 December 2013 - 07:48 PM

I have a very large bladder and accurate winer. It allows me to piss my signature into the snow. None of this mediocre nickname nonsense.

This is exactly what marketing guns has come down too. a dick waving contest. You can say all the stuff you want but until you whip it out wave it around and prove it to the world everyone will doubt you. 

 

Exactly, we all just want companies to just whip out their wieners more. No big deal, as long as they do a side-by-side comparison of everyone peeing in the snow I believe thats all the proof we will need.


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#105 gibbeepbroxzor

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Posted 30 December 2013 - 07:58 PM

I think what people fail to realize is that Jack has asked over and over again for people to test it. It isn't like he's trying to hide anything. Punkworks did a test that wasn't very good. Honestly. And normally I consider their work bulletproof. Bryce and Gordon have done a helluva lot of testing on so many things, I don't doubt them. But they can only judge from the data they get. Jack has asked them to do more testing. They haven't done any. There's nothing more to it than that. Believe what you want. Regardless of the bolt, Aliens are amazing markers, and I think the fact that Jack actually sticks around here when everyone just beats him to a pulp all the damn time shows that he just wants to show how much he cares about his product and his customers. In my opinion that shows that he has more respect than to lie to us about how his gun shoots. Do you really think he would waste his time on here if he didn't believe his product was worth it? If the sweep bolt is a deal breaker for you, then I think you have your priorities in the wrong place.

 

Keep putting your customers first, Jack. I think it's classy.



#106 Jack Rice

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Posted 30 December 2013 - 08:31 PM

talucci and bigx

Not talking to you like an idiot - but you say "Don't tell you and until you prove it"

3 of us spent a whole weekend "showing" it to everyone and we posted it on YouTube - 3 different videos. 

Everyone admits that rotation increases accuracy - and First Strike is the new idol.

I don't say that Sweep is anything close to First Strike, but it adds rotation. We showed the results. Just because players get all "Don't say that because I know it's not true"  doesn't disprove that it's possible. First strike proves the concept pretty clearly, so it's not that it's "not true". It's does the Sweep add rotation or not.

If you do the tests the way we did them you will get the same results.

We also did one where we shot the gun on a level surface and put little flags where every ball hit and set the gun at 150 feet. The longest of the first group and the shortest of the sweep group overlapped but it was clear that - on average - sweep was longer. But its not blindingly obvious - it's a little better. But I like a little better, it why I pay a little more for the better paint.

However I'm am still really liking what the one guy said. Get two guns mounted the same. Swap the standard bolt and the sweep bolt back and forth - that may do it.

Till then if you want to you can look at the videos we did about 3 years ago - just search Alien Sweep - they come right up.


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#107 Jack Rice

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Posted 30 December 2013 - 08:34 PM

Thanks gibbeepbroxzor


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#108 LegionPB

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Posted 30 December 2013 - 08:59 PM

talucci and bigx

Not talking to you like an idiot - but you say "Don't tell you and until you prove it"

3 of us spent a whole weekend "showing" it to everyone and we posted it on YouTube - 3 different videos. 

Everyone admits that rotation increases accuracy - and First Strike is the new idol.

I don't say that Sweep is anything close to First Strike, but it adds rotation. We showed the results. Just because players get all "Don't say that because I know it's not true"  doesn't disprove that it's possible. First strike proves the concept pretty clearly, so it's not that it's "not true". It's does the Sweep add rotation or not.

If you do the tests the way we did them you will get the same results.

We also did one where we shot the gun on a level surface and put little flags where every ball hit and set the gun at 150 feet. The longest of the first group and the shortest of the sweep group overlapped but it was clear that - on average - sweep was longer. But its not blindingly obvious - it's a little better. But I like a little better, it why I pay a little more for the better paint.

However I'm am still really liking what the one guy said. Get two guns mounted the same. Swap the standard bolt and the sweep bolt back and forth - that may do it.

Till then if you want to you can look at the videos we did about 3 years ago - just search Alien Sweep - they come right up.

 

:tup:  You're awesome, you may have just found yourself another customer. I only buy markers made in the U.S.A. (my personal preference obviously) so I'm stoked to see this marker released. 


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#109 Carolus Rex

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Posted 30 December 2013 - 09:19 PM

Now Jack, don't get me wrong when i say what i'm about to say. I would like to see your product succeed in doing what you say it does, just because it would drive competition and make me want one. But you really stepped on a nerve (swedish saying) when you compared a regular paintball fired by a sweep bolt to first strike rounds. It's an entirely different design principle. While i don't think i need to explain it to you what the Sweep bolt aims to do let's go over it anyway. The end goal is to apply backspin, utilizing the (as i've now learned after doing some research) Magnus Effect (link down below). The first strike round on the other hand, works in a significantly different manner. Firstly, the first strike round obviously has the the fins that apply a sideways rotation (i'm struggling with the language a bit but i hope you understand what i'm trying to convey) which improves stability once the round has started spinning, alternatively using a rifled barrel so that the round is already spinning when leaving the muzzle. The first strike round also maintains it's velocity a lot longer because of the improved airflow thanks to the fins.

 

What i'm basically trying to say is that First Strikes working doesn't prove that your Sweep bolt works, because they work in different albeit similar ways.      

 

Even though i'm critical of your product, i do wish you the best of luck with your company and your marker. Because they do seem to be really sweet guns!

 

http://en.wikipedia....i/Magnus_effect


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#110 Poopfairy35

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Posted 30 December 2013 - 10:10 PM

Hey jack, if you could send me 2 of the guns to test, I would be more than happy to. :D
On the sweep bolt discussion, this would lead to a more broad discussion; the accuracy of paintball markers. Accuracy, according to the webster dictionary, is 1.freedom from mistake or error. 2.a: Conformity to truth or a standard truth or model.b: degree of conformity of a measure to a standard or a true value. I feel 2 a is most applicable here. The standard of measurable accuracy for paintball would be how easy the marker makes it for a paintball to hit the target. As it stands, the most accurate paintball marker would have a paintball fly with minimum deceleration & no change in direction( or paintballs that change direction to hit the target, but that would take the fun out of the game & we're a ways out technologically speaking). The best way to test this would be to determine the consistency of the shot is my opinion, & to test the spread of where the paintballs landed. If the sweep bolt improves accuracy, the paintball will fly straighter & more consistent than a standard bolt.

Edited by Poopfairy35, 30 December 2013 - 10:27 PM.

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#111 Jack Rice

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Posted 30 December 2013 - 10:50 PM

CarolusRrex - you say "entirely different design principle" - if you would have said "entirely different design" I would have agreed. I think the principle is, however, similar if not "entirely" the same ;-)

I do agree that First Strike doesn't prove Sweep works, rather proves the principle.

One more thing: The end goal isn't (wasn't) to apply back spin, rather to improved the trajectory.

To restate the origin.  I made a gun with a rotating door and noticed the improved shot as did several of the best Pro Players - 10 years ago. I put the design in a blowback gun with input pressure of about 400 PSI, and those that shot it asked me if the ball wasn't rising. This proved (at least to me) that rotation could alter the shot of the ball.

Having made this discovery I put several different designs to the test. It was clear (to me) that air just below centerline was the best and that pressure below 250 negated any perceptible rise in the shot.

I am truly perplexed why so many fail to accept what is demonstrateably happing. Far more perplexed that so many take offense at the suggestion that it does.

Many have suggested that I take the Sweep out of the gun. However it does no harm - allows for placing a very nice pad in the gun to keep the ball from rolling back and every time I have done any type of testing the results show benefits to trajectory.

 

Poopfairy35 - Be happy to send you two, or more, for the low, low introductory price of "only..."

:-)


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#112 AoSpades

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Posted 31 December 2013 - 12:47 AM

Jack, desk jockeys will be desk jockeys.

 

 

Those that say it doesn't work are simply riding on the coattails of another, who heard from another, who heard from another, who heard from another, who heard from another, who heard from another, who heard from another, who heard from another, who heard from another, who heard from another, who heard from another, who heard from another, who heard from another, who heard from another, who heard from another, who heard from another, who heard from another... The cycle continues.

 

They have no definitive proof of it working or not working. They simply go off of one group's testing of it and, lets face it gentlemen, Punkwork's tests on this were pretty terrible. Moreover Jack recorded comparison videos himself, showing that it does work. So, really, it is up to you all as individuals to decide for yourself whether it works or not by going out and trying it your damn selves. Jack's markers come with both a stock and Sweep bolt (if I remember correctly) so in all reality, you people are bitching about a product that is offering you an optional advantage that you can test for your own damn selves without any repercussions to the performance to your marker or the money in your wallet.

 

 

Tl;dr

 

Ya'lls a bunch of whiney bitches that don't even know if the Sweep really works or not.


Edited by AoSpades, 31 December 2013 - 12:47 AM.

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#113 XGC_Cheevo

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Posted 31 December 2013 - 12:50 AM

I would like to point out that using two markers to test the same thing immediately adds more variables into the so called equation.  There are multiple ways for tolerances to differ in the two markers thus affecting the shot quality, especially on something as small as a bolt surface (as an example).

 

Using one marker and using a documented cleaning/swapping and re-chronoing process would keep some of the naysayers out.

 

And also, claims of tests and results are just that, claims.  Lets see some videos with timestamps.



#114 Filmer_jake

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Posted 31 December 2013 - 01:10 AM

I would like to point out that using two markers to test the same thing immediately adds more variables into the so called equation.  There are multiple ways for tolerances to differ in the two markers thus affecting the shot quality, especially on something as small as a bolt surface (as an example).

 

Using one marker and using a documented cleaning/swapping and re-chronoing process would keep some of the naysayers out.

 

And also, claims of tests and results are just that, claims.  Lets see some videos with timestamps.

 

 

 

One marker: check

Documented swapping bolts: check

Documented chrono bolts: check

Test and results: check

All one video: check.

 

What more do you want?  Here it is plain as day.  If you don't like it, do the test yourself.  Notice, it is only about a foot difference.  No ridiculous claim is made, just a claim of slightly further shot.

 

Jack, desk jockeys will be desk jockeys.

 

 

Those that say it doesn't work are simply riding on the coattails of another, who heard from another, who heard from another, who heard from another, who heard from another, who heard from another, who heard from another, who heard from another, who heard from another, who heard from another, who heard from another, who heard from another, who heard from another, who heard from another, who heard from another, who heard from another, who heard from another... The cycle continues.

 

They have no definitive proof of it working or not working. They simply go off of one group's testing of it and, lets face it gentlemen, Punkwork's tests on this were pretty terrible. Moreover Jack recorded comparison videos himself, showing that it does work. So, really, it is up to you all as individuals to decide for yourself whether it works or not by going out and trying it your damn selves. Jack's markers come with both a stock and Sweep bolt (if I remember correctly) so in all reality, you people are bitching about a product that is offering you an optional advantage that you can test for your own damn selves without any repercussions to the performance to your marker or the money in your wallet.

 

 

Tl;dr

 

Ya'lls a bunch of whiney bitches that don't even know if the Sweep really works or not.

 

:tup:  :tup:  :tup:


Edited by Filmer_jake, 31 December 2013 - 01:14 AM.

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#115 andrewthewookie

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Posted 31 December 2013 - 01:30 AM

 

 

 

One marker: check

Documented swapping bolts: check

Documented chrono bolts: check

Test and results: check

All one video: check.

 

What more do you want?  Here it is plain as day.  If you don't like it, do the test yourself.  Notice, it is only a foot difference at most.  No ridiculous claim is made, just a claim of slightly further shot.

 

That video is nice, but pointless since we don't actually see the gun in the shot. We see them zoom out for the bolt change, then zoom back in so that we can't see the gun. Any number of things could be happening that we can't take into account for, because we can only see a board and some random hits. Granted, Punkworks also does not have a video of the test like that, however I trust the integrity of Bryce and Gordon, as they are both only interested in the results and data. They have no vested interest either way for Alien, so they would have no reason to lie about the results.

 

This is Punksorks' test on the sweep: http://www.punkworks...x.php?p=7&id=23

 

They clamped the gun and tested both bolts indoors, using good paint with an underbore, bore match, and overbore at 100 and 150 feet. I believe it is a quite comprehensive and reliable test, hardly what I would call terrible.

 

Also, the onus of proof lies with those that make the claims. You can't just go around saying "he said it works, so it's on you to disprove it." That's like me saying I have an invisible dragon for a pet, and when you ask for proof, me saying "you disprove it."

 

So as a scientist and engineer, yes, I will be a whiny bitch about the proper way to make claims and provide proof.


Edited by andrewthewookie, 31 December 2013 - 01:33 AM.

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#116 Filmer_jake

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Posted 31 December 2013 - 01:46 AM

 

 

 

 

One marker: check

Documented swapping bolts: check

Documented chrono bolts: check

Test and results: check

All one video: check.

 

What more do you want?  Here it is plain as day.  If you don't like it, do the test yourself.  Notice, it is only a foot difference at most.  No ridiculous claim is made, just a claim of slightly further shot.

 

That video is nice, but pointless since we don't actually see the gun in the shot. We see them zoom out for the bolt change, then zoom back in so that we can't see the gun. Any number of things could be happening that we can't take into account for, because we can only see a board and some random hits. Granted, Punkworks also does not have a video of the test like that, however I trust the integrity of Bryce and Gordon, as they are both only interested in the results and data. They have no vested interest either way for Alien, so they would have no reason to lie about the results.

 

This is Punksorks' test on the sweep: http://www.punkworks...x.php?p=7&id=23

 

They clamped the gun and tested both bolts indoors, using good paint with an underbore, bore match, and overbore at 100 and 150 feet. I believe it is a quite comprehensive and reliable test, hardly what I would call terrible.

 

Also, the onus of proof lies with those that make the claims. You can't just go around saying "he said it works, so it's on you to disprove it." That's like me saying I have an invisible dragon for a pet, and when you ask for proof, me saying "you disprove it."

 

So as a scientist and engineer, yes, I will be a whiny bitch about the proper way to make claims and provide proof.

 

 

Well in my mind this video is more valid than punkworks.  At least he shows something shooting and I trust enough that it is the gun. Punkworks doesn't have any reason to skew the data but you never know since they don't show anything... any number of things could of happened.

 

Also, the invisible dragon simile does not quite make sense in this argument.  Because that really isn't something that can be tested by everyone, only you; ie, it is not readily available by everyone. Hence, the "test it yourself" Because in reality, it is something everyone can do.


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#117 andrewthewookie

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Posted 31 December 2013 - 01:52 AM

So you're going to side with the person clearly interested in making it look like the sweep works with no actual data, just a questionable video, vs a rigorous scientific query from a non-biased third party? Allrighty then, not much else to be said. And the dragon comment was simply about how the responsibility is always shifted to the person asking for proof by the fanboys, never on the person making the claims.


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#118 saintnoir

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Posted 31 December 2013 - 02:06 AM

For me the 2010 indy i had was an amazing marker thin,light,really low profile,and fast as hell the only reason i dont still have it was it was stolen and trashed im still hunting for another.If you believe the sweep bolt works or not give em a shot youll love it.

and please make the first model with the exposed bolt as an le i have a kidney ill sell for one


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#119 Filmer_jake

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Posted 31 December 2013 - 02:47 AM

So you're going to side with the person clearly interested in making it look like the sweep works with no actual data, just a questionable video, vs a rigorous scientific query from a non-biased third party? Allrighty then, not much else to be said. And the dragon comment was simply about how the responsibility is always shifted to the person asking for proof by the fanboys, never on the person making the claims.

 

Well I do like Jack's video better than punkworks, it is more believable IMO.  I am not saying it works, or claiming it does.  I just don't get all of the hate or why we are all having this huge argument to begin with.  Boblong makes claims that his markers get crazy efficiency but no one has really been able to get the efficiency he claims.  Yet, whenever there is a thread about a boblong gun, no one ever brings up the efficiency issue.

 

As what was mentioned before, the sweepbolt is aliens thing.  It is what sets it apart from the rest.  Who cares if it works/doesnt work, alien makes good markers, which is what matters in the end.


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#120 andrewthewookie

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Posted 31 December 2013 - 03:18 AM

Well I do like Jack's video better than punkworks, it is more believable IMO.  I am not saying it works, or claiming it does.  I just don't get all of the hate or why we are all having this huge argument to begin with.  Boblong makes claims that his markers get crazy efficiency but no one has really been able to get the efficiency he claims.  Yet, whenever there is a thread about a boblong gun, no one ever brings up the efficiency issue.

That's the thing though, it doesn't matter how much you like it, it's useless as proof. No data is presented, no numbers that can be analyzed. There is no hate for the guns or the bolt. I wish Jack the best in his endeavors, and I personally am looking forward to the Deception, as I am a big fan if the looks, and can't wait to see the internals. There is frustration and annoyance in how the claims of the sweep bolt are "backed up," but not hate.

As for BL guns, no one brings up the efficiency because we all already know his claims are BS.

Edited by andrewthewookie, 31 December 2013 - 03:19 AM.

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#121 Nobben #44

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Posted 31 December 2013 - 03:43 AM

 

Well I do like Jack's video better than punkworks, it is more believable IMO.  I am not saying it works, or claiming it does.  I just don't get all of the hate or why we are all having this huge argument to begin with.  Boblong makes claims that his markers get crazy efficiency but no one has really been able to get the efficiency he claims.  Yet, whenever there is a thread about a boblong gun, no one ever brings up the efficiency issue.

That's the thing though, it doesn't matter how much you like it, it's useless as proof. No data is presented, no numbers that can be analyzed. There is no hate for the guns or the bolt. I wish Jack the best in his endeavors, and I personally am looking forward to the Deception, as I am a big fan if the looks, and can't wait to see the internals. There is frustration and annoyance in how the claims of the sweep bolt are "backed up," but not hate.

As for BL guns, no one brings up the efficiency because we all already know his claims are BS.

 

 

And because this forum is generally full of BL fanboys. Bob Long guns are insanely overrated on pretty much every aspect, and I've owned quite a few over a longer period of time.



#122 unfated33

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Posted 31 December 2013 - 07:55 AM

So you're going to side with the person clearly interested in making it look like the sweep works with no actual data, just a questionable video, vs a rigorous scientific query from a non-biased third party? Allrighty then, not much else to be said. And the dragon comment was simply about how the responsibility is always shifted to the person asking for proof by the fanboys, never on the person making the claims.

But as a generalization, that's what we do around these parts.  I don't know if it's desperation or blind obedience, but in situations where there is the implication of something being wrong or false (but with ambiguity), paintball forums jump to the defense of manufacturers.  With such strong general support and a financial incentive to be misleading, it's a wonder if any manufacturer can ever be honest in the business.

 

All of that aside, I like the look of Alien markers and hear only good things about their ease of use and maintainability.  If I was ever in that price range I'd like to get one.  I don't think the sweep bolt works, and physics/fluid dynamics would seem to support me.  Have ya'all even thought about how much bigger the breach is than a paintball?


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#123 Jack Rice

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Posted 31 December 2013 - 10:15 AM

Andrewthewookie:

I have to disagree that my video is more questionable. It shows the gun shooting. Shows how the results were obtained.

I also disagree that it was unbiased 3rd party. He stated that it didn't work before making the video, so I was skeptical. Still he promised multiple paints and multiple barrels - "the ultimate test" - so I agreed.

Wasn't done. Unbiased would have done as he said, as was agreed

A test of how a gun shoots without the gun shooting - yea I think most would agree that is "terrible". If I had done what they had done, and they had done what I had done - no way I would get any credibility, but it's justified by calling it 3rd party.

To show that something didn't work is pretty easy - doesn't mean it doesn't work. You can detune a car pretty easy so that a car that can go 140, has a top speed of 60 or 80. Use a tight barrel and bad paint and you could get results showing the Sweep does nothing. Doesn't prove that it doesn't - just that that time it didn't. You have to show the best results to show the capability.

And again - he didn't show anything, just said it.

Just saying ;)


Edited by Jack Rice, 31 December 2013 - 10:16 AM.

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#124 Jack Rice

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Posted 31 December 2013 - 10:31 AM

FilmerJake: I don't' get it. I did plot the results - but I don't know what analyzing you want?. Is the pattern better? Looking at the two of them, which one do you want to shoot? Take all the shots - or discard the worst 20%. Anyway I look at it, the Sweep pattern is going to shoot more guys out more often. I'm not an analyst, not a statistician, just a guy that wants to shoot the other guy out. Looking at the two patterns it's easy for me to say I want the smaller oval pattern instead of the larger rounder one.

To me, it's just not that hard? 


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#125 andrewthewookie

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Posted 31 December 2013 - 11:09 AM

Andrewthewookie:

I have to disagree that my video is more questionable. It shows the gun shooting.

 

No, it doesn't. Every single shot from the gun happens off-screen, and we only see a really zoomed in shot of the board. We can't even see the trajectory of the paint.


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#126 Jack Rice

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Posted 31 December 2013 - 11:46 AM

Ok - shows the paint as it hits while you hear the gun being shot.

This will be the 10h year I have been selling guns.

This is not a scam to sell a few guns fast.

I have always made what I feel are "at least" among the best performance guns, value priced. Honestly I think they shoot better than anything else out there, but anyone is free to disagree.

I got a gun in this week and they ruined the Ram body and the solenoid. It's an '06  I found a new ram body and can fix his gun - so I have still been able to get any gun working that I have ever sold.

 

I don't do "tricks" off camera. The guns do what is shown. Just do. If you want to believe that it has to be a tick or a con, if you come with the premise that it's a hoax then no test I show can be good enough.


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#127 bigx

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Posted 31 December 2013 - 12:24 PM

 

I have a very large bladder and accurate winer. It allows me to piss my signature into the snow. None of this mediocre nickname nonsense.

This is exactly what marketing guns has come down too. a dick waving contest. You can say all the stuff you want but until you whip it out wave it around and prove it to the world everyone will doubt you. 

 

Exactly, we all just want companies to just whip out their wieners more. No big deal, as long as they do a side-by-side comparison of everyone peeing in the snow I believe thats all the proof we will need.

 

 

You guys want to know a secret? I actually do something called play paintball! :) I don't care about any of the "selling points" companies are putting into their products. Every marker has something it does well. My G6r has unparalleled effeciency and is extremely comfortable for me to shoot. My Luxe has the best shot quality in the game, everyone always compares a markers shot quality to a Luxe "It shoots like a Luxe." Both of them are supported my excellent companies and produced to the highest possible standards. 

 

I want to try something from Alien but its not very common at all, I live in New England I have NEVER seen an Alien marker up here unfortunately. I would love to get a chance to shoot one before I go out and buy one. Unfortunately they are nowhere to be seen in my neck of the woods. 

 

On the subject of the sweep bolt. I could care less if it works as advertised or not, if you market a reliable marker that shoots well and is comparable to the competition then hell you have a winner in my book. Markers have reached a point where everything can give you the performance you require its the little touches that set them apart. 

 

The thing drawing me to the Deception is the CG images. It looks really slick and the valve idea you fleshed out is quite interesting. I stand behind the guns I shoot, I want a reason to stand behind this. 


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#128 Jawz

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Posted 31 December 2013 - 12:44 PM

 

 

 

 

 

One marker: check

Documented swapping bolts: check

Documented chrono bolts: check

Test and results: check

All one video: check.

 

What more do you want?  Here it is plain as day.  If you don't like it, do the test yourself.  Notice, it is only a foot difference at most.  No ridiculous claim is made, just a claim of slightly further shot.

 

That video is nice, but pointless since we don't actually see the gun in the shot. We see them zoom out for the bolt change, then zoom back in so that we can't see the gun. Any number of things could be happening that we can't take into account for, because we can only see a board and some random hits. Granted, Punkworks also does not have a video of the test like that, however I trust the integrity of Bryce and Gordon, as they are both only interested in the results and data. They have no vested interest either way for Alien, so they would have no reason to lie about the results.

 

This is Punksorks' test on the sweep: http://www.punkworks...x.php?p=7&id=23

 

 

They clamped the gun and tested both bolts indoors, using good paint with an underbore, bore match, and overbore at 100 and 150 feet. I believe it is a quite comprehensive and reliable test, hardly what I would call terrible.

 

Also, the onus of proof lies with those that make the claims. You can't just go around saying "he said it works, so it's on you to disprove it." That's like me saying I have an invisible dragon for a pet, and when you ask for proof, me saying "you disprove it."

 

So as a scientist and engineer, yes, I will be a whiny bitch about the proper way to make claims and provide proof.

 

 

Well in my mind this video is more valid than punkworks.  At least he shows something shooting and I trust enough that it is the gun. Punkworks doesn't have any reason to skew the data but you never know since they don't show anything... any number of things could of happened.

 

Also, the invisible dragon simile does not quite make sense in this argument.  Because that really isn't something that can be tested by everyone, only you; ie, it is not readily available by everyone. Hence, the "test it yourself" Because in reality, it is something everyone can do.

 

Cause that's a thing.

Sides with a video that didn't show the actual gun shooting...

Why are you even... My head... My.. Marbles! 

 

 

I would like to point out that using two markers to test the same thing immediately adds more variables into the so called equation.  There are multiple ways for tolerances to differ in the two markers thus affecting the shot quality, especially on something as small as a bolt surface (as an example).

 

Using one marker and using a documented cleaning/swapping and re-chronoing process would keep some of the naysayers out.

 

And also, claims of tests and results are just that, claims.  Lets see some videos with timestamps.

 

 

Although I agree with that you, I have to say that if the markers are the same make and model the effect in the one gun should me visibly the same or similar which is what we are going for if we test it, because if the ball goes a centimetre further with the sweep bolt then it does with the regular bolt it might prove the sweep bolt to be true but 1 cm isn't a fuck giving result to anyone in this situation. If they're different models (invasion and deception) and they yield different results then what you said is adequate. 


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#129 Poopfairy35

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Posted 31 December 2013 - 02:42 PM

I have a very large bladder and accurate winer. It allows me to piss my signature into the snow. None of this mediocre nickname nonsense.
This is exactly what marketing guns has come down too. a dick waving contest. You can say all the stuff you want but until you whip it out wave it around and prove it to the world everyone will doubt you.

 
Exactly, we all just want companies to just whip out their wieners more. No big deal, as long as they do a side-by-side comparison of everyone peeing in the snow I believe thats all the proof we will need.
 
You guys want to know a secret? I actually do something called play paintball! :) I don't care about any of the "selling points" companies are putting into their products. Every marker has something it does well. My G6r has unparalleled effeciency and is extremely comfortable for me to shoot. My Luxe has the best shot quality in the game, everyone always compares a markers shot quality to a Luxe "It shoots like a Luxe." Both of them are supported my excellent companies and produced to the highest possible standards. 
 
I want to try something from Alien but its not very common at all, I live in New England I have NEVER seen an Alien marker up here unfortunately. I would love to get a chance to shoot one before I go out and buy one. Unfortunately they are nowhere to be seen in my neck of the woods. 
 
On the subject of the sweep bolt. I could care less if it works as advertised or not, if you market a reliable marker that shoots well and is comparable to the competition then hell you have a winner in my book. Markers have reached a point where everything can give you the performance you require its the little touches that set them apart. 
 
The thing drawing me to the Deception is the CG images. It looks really slick and the valve idea you fleshed out is quite interesting. I stand behind the guns I shoot, I want a reason to stand behind this.
I agree with this 100%. Whether or not the sweep actually works, the marker it's inside shoots great & has good quality. I can't see how the sweep bolt could possibly make the gun worse, so I fail to see why everyone is flipping out about it. If someone is going to refuse to buy this because of the sweep bolt claims, then they really shouldn't be buying other products either, like the spire ( they claim it never jams), the bob long guns( 20 pods on one tank), or really anything else with an unrealistic claim. The fact is, the claims don't matter if the product works fine.

Edited by Poopfairy35, 31 December 2013 - 02:48 PM.

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#130 XGC_Cheevo

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Posted 31 December 2013 - 04:28 PM

The fact is, the claims don't matter if the product works fine.

 

 

Wrong, if a product (any product) is priced around a claim which is not true I have every right to bitch.



#131 Carolus Rex

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Posted 31 December 2013 - 05:17 PM

The fact is, the claims don't matter if the product works fine.
 

 
No, that's where you're wrong, because that's what's called false advertising. Since it's possible that a person actually buys the product based on whatever the manufactuer claims the product can do.

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#132 LegionPB

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Posted 31 December 2013 - 05:42 PM

Are we still talking about this  <_<


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#133 Talucci

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Posted 31 December 2013 - 09:07 PM

 

 

Well I do like Jack's video better than punkworks, it is more believable IMO.  I am not saying it works, or claiming it does.  I just don't get all of the hate or why we are all having this huge argument to begin with.  Boblong makes claims that his markers get crazy efficiency but no one has really been able to get the efficiency he claims.  Yet, whenever there is a thread about a boblong gun, no one ever brings up the efficiency issue.

That's the thing though, it doesn't matter how much you like it, it's useless as proof. No data is presented, no numbers that can be analyzed. There is no hate for the guns or the bolt. I wish Jack the best in his endeavors, and I personally am looking forward to the Deception, as I am a big fan if the looks, and can't wait to see the internals. There is frustration and annoyance in how the claims of the sweep bolt are "backed up," but not hate.

As for BL guns, no one brings up the efficiency because we all already know his claims are BS.

 

 

And because this forum is generally full of BL fanboys. Bob Long guns are insanely overrated on pretty much every aspect, and I've owned quite a few over a longer period of time.

 

Overrated? And planet eclipse or Dye are not overrated? I disagree with that, bl guns are well made just like macdev. If you wanna talk fanboys look to PE.



#134 bigx

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Posted 31 December 2013 - 09:24 PM

Ok let me be clear. I want to shoot a Deception or anything Alien for that matter. I want to rub my mud and paint covered hands all over it, I want to dump pod after after pod through it and do everything I actually use it in game like I have every other marker I have been interested in. The only thing thats stopping me is that I have never had the chance to see one in person.

Jack Rice do you have any dealers in New England or will you be attending any events in MA, RI or NH at any point with your markers. 


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#135 Jawz

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Posted 01 January 2014 - 12:52 AM

Wtf Tom I was selling my Damn invasion, why the fuck didn't you buy it lol


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#136 bigx

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Posted 01 January 2014 - 12:54 AM

Wtf Tom I was selling my Damn invasion, why the fuck didn't you buy it lol

 

You also said yours was leaking and in Canada. 


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#137 Jawz

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Posted 01 January 2014 - 04:13 AM

pshhhhh leaking, what leaking between here and Boston....


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#138 r45vt

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Posted 01 January 2014 - 04:55 AM


 
 
One marker: check
Documented swapping bolts: check
Documented chrono bolts: check
Test and results: check
All one video: check.
 
What more do you want?  Here it is plain as day.  If you don't like it, do the test yourself.  Notice, it is only a foot difference at most.  No ridiculous claim is made, just a claim of slightly further shot.

 
That video is nice, but pointless since we don't actually see the gun in the shot. We see them zoom out for the bolt change, then zoom back in so that we can't see the gun. Any number of things could be happening that we can't take into account for, because we can only see a board and some random hits. Granted, Punkworks also does not have a video of the test like that, however I trust the integrity of Bryce and Gordon, as they are both only interested in the results and data. They have no vested interest either way for Alien, so they would have no reason to lie about the results.
 
This is Punksorks' test on the sweep: http://www.punkworks...x.php?p=7&id=23
 
They clamped the gun and tested both bolts indoors, using good paint with an underbore, bore match, and overbore at 100 and 150 feet. I believe it is a quite comprehensive and reliable test, hardly what I would call terrible.
 
Also, the onus of proof lies with those that make the claims. You can't just go around saying "he said it works, so it's on you to disprove it." That's like me saying I have an invisible dragon for a pet, and when you ask for proof, me saying "you disprove it."
 
So as a scientist and engineer, yes, I will be a whiny bitch about the proper way to make claims and provide proof.

That's a lot hypocritical there. Believe X group because they wouldn't lie, don't trust Y person because he zoomed in during filming.

X group doesn't even show the shooting, let alone use paint that you can see on the board.

Both easily could have been faked but to say one groups test is more reliable is bullshit based off of what is seen in the videos. Neither is proven of disproven if you analyze what is shown only in the videos.

I haven't seen anyone post these magical claims that were stated either.

Seems like a lot of bitching and double standards over a "marginal" claim of improvement.

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#139 andrewthewookie

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Posted 01 January 2014 - 11:24 AM

Perhaps, however group X is an unbiased third party and actually collected data that was made available for analysis. Group Y has a vested interest in the results of the test, and has always been evasive about legit proof that would be more than easy for him to actually do, yet never seems willing to do.

 

Look, whenever a claim is made that something does something, the default is to assume the claim is baseless unless it can be proved. Scientific papers go through tons of peer review and scrutiny before being accepted, why should something like this be any different? When did it become ok to blindly believe everything you hear without asking for proof?

 

A proper discourse would go like this:

 

"I made a new bolt, and it does special things to the paint"

"Ok, prove it."

 

Not:

 

"I made a new bolt, and it does special things to the paint"

"Sure, we'll believe you even though nobody's been able to replicate the claimed results, you have a reason to sell the gun, and don't have proof"


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#140 cockerpunk

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Posted 01 January 2014 - 11:47 AM

alright jack, mike has been muzzling me for a long time preventing me from arguing back, you have said i avoid you because im scared of you, that is simply not true. i have avoided you cause im scared as fuck of mike, but he just told me the gloves are off. but lets set a few things straight for the record. this will be my last post on the topic, i will not argue with you, as i and many others have learned that is not productive. this post is only to correct certain factual errors that you have repeated for 5 years, that i have not responded to.

1. when we were talking about the test on the phone, i expressed my doubts that it worked. then, i asked you directly, under what conditions you knew it would work, so that i could test those exact conditions. i then went on to ask what bore sizes and paint made it work. this is FAR AND ABOVE any level of offering we have given any other company mind you, we typically tell manufacuters that if it doesn't work with normal paint under typical conditions, then we arn't going to stray from that in our testing. i was willing to test your EXACT specifications. you refused to give me an answer for what conditions made it work the best. so i said i would try differnet paints and differnet barrel fits, which i did do. two types of paints, and 3 barrel conditions. i have no idea where you get the quote "the ultimate test" this was never said by either of us, at any time when disucssing this test.

the fact that you could not tell me under what conditions your product worked the best under, leads me to think you do not understand it fully and/or it does not work. you see, a good engineer/scientist who understands the phenomina he is manipulating should be able to give half decent parameters for when it works, and when it doesn't work as well.

example: "well too much underbore will kill the spin, so use as round of paint as you can find, the marbalizer we get here is the best we have found, and use a blow test paint to barrel match. this will probably give you the best resualts" 

you refused and/or were unable to provide such conditions for the test.

2. you have on these very forums, and indeed even when talking on the phone to each other, freely mixed up me, brycelarson, and spitlebug. in fact, at one point you actually claimed that me and spitlebug were the same person, under two differnet screen names, this fact is documented on these very forums. i can also say you have made me attempt to defend spitlebug's patent arguments with you on the phone, and mixed me up with bryce several times.

the reason i bring this up, is not to personally attack you. it is to show that perhaps your memory of a phone conversation 5 years ago, is not as good as you think.

 

 

 

 

as far as testing the sweep system:

i welcome any and all testing on the alien system, done by anyone. the best and easist test i think anyone can do ... is simply turn an alien 90 degrees to either side, and see if the ball arcs in the proper direction, since it is no longer fighting gravity, it should be even more pronouced. in this way, anyone with an alien can see with there own eyes the effectivness of the sweep system.


Edited by cockerpunk, 01 January 2014 - 11:47 AM.

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#141 bigx

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Posted 01 January 2014 - 11:51 AM

pshhhhh leaking, what leaking between here and Boston....

That does not even make coherent sense?


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#142 r45vt

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Posted 01 January 2014 - 01:42 PM

Perhaps, however group X is an unbiased third party and actually collected data that was made available for analysis. Group Y has a vested interest in the results of the test, and has always been evasive about legit proof that would be more than easy for him to actually do, yet never seems willing to do.
 
Look, whenever a claim is made that something does something, the default is to assume the claim is baseless unless it can be proved. Scientific papers go through tons of peer review and scrutiny before being accepted, why should something like this be any different? When did it become ok to blindly believe everything you hear without asking for proof?
 
A proper discourse would go like this:
 
"I made a new bolt, and it does special things to the paint"
"Ok, prove it."
 
Not:
 
"I made a new bolt, and it does special things to the paint"
"Sure, we'll believe you even though nobody's been able to replicate the claimed results, you have a reason to sell the gun, and don't have proof"


Unbiased? Read his post below- he went into the experiment thinking it was a BS claim. That's a bias right there, even if it his opinion was founded off multiple previous experiments.

Yes the onus of proof is on the party that claims it. I just don't see it proved or disproved by either video that was posted.

Has anyone else attempted to test the results similar to punk works?

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#143 Jack Rice

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Posted 01 January 2014 - 02:03 PM

In regards to Cockerpunks comments:

For some reason the quote, the paste, and coloring for text aren't working aren't working - so seems some might be muzzling me - in any event, I have tried to make it clear what I am quoting.

 

Quote: "you have said I avoid you because I'm scared of you" 

What I said was: You told me I had better "call my son off or"...  then at World Cup you hid in the background when Mike, I, and several others were looking at the first 50 cal guns. Scott (my son) noticed you - I didn't. You didn't threaten face to face, didn't even make yourself known.

 

Quote: "So I said I would try different kinds of paints and different barrels Two Paints and three Barrels"

I just looked at your video again - no mention of 3 barrels or two paints. It shows two boards. Only two - no shooting. On the phone I asked why only one paint and one barrel. You said that it was Marbalizer, and that was "good paint". Only one paint and one barrel used. That was the point then and now. That, and you don't show the gun shooting. But maybe you never show the gun actually shooing, I haven't looked at anything else you have done.

 

Quote: "'The ultimate test' this was never said by either..."

5 years ago and you know the exact wording. You agree that multiple barrels and paints were promised, then not used. But that it would be the best test - or ultimate test, that you want to argue? OK

 

"Spittlebug"? What I say, because it is true, is that you didn't do the test you promised. I didn't trust you at the time because of you biased comment before. In order to get me to send you a gun, you promised a complete and fair test. You didn't do it. When I called you on the hatchet job you did, you got ugly and threating on the phone. See, when people are wrong, and know it, they usually do one of two things. They admit it and try to correct it, or they get aggressive.

 

 Quote: "Turn an Alien 90 degrees" , as you are well aware, as this has been stated repeatedly, at 400 psi the blowback gun did have a perceptible rise. Below 200 PSI, no perceptible rise. To say that a player has to see the difference with "the(ir)  own eyes" is dishonest. I think you know that. At 100 or 150 feet it is very hard - really impossible - to tell the trajectory of the ball". You see where the balls are hitting and adjust. And now you want to make it all about the movement of the ball, rather than the tightness of the pattern. Alien guns shoot a pattern that is more oval and tighter. Plus you are all about how players that say they can tell the difference are seeing what they want to see, but now that it servers you - "with your own eyes" is good.

As you know, shortly after the "test" I sold a gun to Mike at half price so he could test it. He said he sold it to a team mate - and that the team mate shot it and it shoots great. But that's not a test and neither is what you did. I have always said do the same test I do and you will get the same result. However, paint and barrel match will effect the test. Paint effects everything. You use paint that is bad enough and the added rotation will make the spread wider, but you know that.

The problem is you think this is personal. It's not. The problem is that 4 - 5 years ago you gave me your word that you would do a complete and full test if I would send you a gun. I sent the gun and you didn't do the test. Instead you used your "reputation" to slander my company. I think that is a despicable act and I say so.

Had you kept your word there would have been none of this. Had you kept your word and done honest testing your results would have closely matched mine.


Edited by Jack Rice, 01 January 2014 - 02:32 PM.

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#144 Filmer_jake

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Posted 01 January 2014 - 02:05 PM

 

The fact is, the claims don't matter if the product works fine.

 

 

Wrong, if a product (any product) is priced around a claim which is not true I have every right to bitch.

 

 

Except Alien markers aren't really priced around the fact that they have the sweep bolt.  They are priced around the fact that they are solid guns, usually cheaper than the competitors.  No price inflation from the sweep bolt at all.  So the claims, in this case, don't matter.  Especially when the product works great.


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#145 andrewthewookie

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Posted 01 January 2014 - 03:34 PM

Unbiased? Read his post below- he went into the experiment thinking it was a BS claim. That's a bias right there, even if it his opinion was founded off multiple previous experiments.

Yes the onus of proof is on the party that claims it. I just don't see it proved or disproved by either video that was posted.

Has anyone else attempted to test the results similar to punk works?

Punkworks gets no compensation either way, so they have no reason to skew or lie about results. Jack does have a reason to make sure the results are in his favor. That's the kind of bias that matters. I'm not calling him a liar or saying that he's rigging the tests (but that's mostly cause he won't show anything about the test), I'm saying that as the owner he will have to make sure his tests are water tight to an outside observer. So far he's been doing everything that would make a reasonable person suspect the results.

The base claim is that the sweep works. That has not been shown sufficiently by anyone. Since the default assumption is that a claim must be proven first, there's nothing for Punkworks to disprove. Their testing showed no merit to the efficacy of the sweep, which supports the default assumption of the sweep not working as claimed.

Edited by andrewthewookie, 01 January 2014 - 03:42 PM.

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#146 cockerpunk

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Posted 01 January 2014 - 05:46 PM

In regards to Cockerpunks comments:

For some reason the quote, the paste, and coloring for text aren't working aren't working - so seems some might be muzzling me - in any event, I have tried to make it clear what I am quoting.

 

Quote: "you have said I avoid you because I'm scared of you" 

What I said was: You told me I had better "call my son off or"...  then at World Cup you hid in the background when Mike, I, and several others were looking at the first 50 cal guns. Scott (my son) noticed you - I didn't. You didn't threaten face to face, didn't even make yourself known.

 

never have i interacted or talked to or about your son EVER. you are confusing me with someone else. and you bet your butt i stayed away from you at world cup ... mike had my balls in a vice.

 

Quote: "So I said I would try different kinds of paints and different barrels Two Paints and three Barrels"

I just looked at your video again - no mention of 3 barrels or two paints. It shows two boards. Only two - no shooting. On the phone I asked why only one paint and one barrel. You said that it was Marbalizer, and that was "good paint". Only one paint and one barrel used. That was the point then and now. That, and you don't show the gun shooting. But maybe you never show the gun actually shooing, I haven't looked at anything else you have done.

 

if you didn't see the three barrels and two paints in our test documents and data sets, then you are clearly illiterate.

 

Quote: "'The ultimate test' this was never said by either..."

5 years ago and you know the exact wording. You agree that multiple barrels and paints were promised, then not used. But that it would be the best test - or ultimate test, that you want to argue? OK

 

this statment simple completely false.

 

"Spittlebug"? What I say, because it is true, is that you didn't do the test you promised. I didn't trust you at the time because of you biased comment before. In order to get me to send you a gun, you promised a complete and fair test. You didn't do it. When I called you on the hatchet job you did, you got ugly and threating on the phone. See, when people are wrong, and know it, they usually do one of two things. They admit it and try to correct it, or they get aggressive.

 

this is just more accusations.

 

 Quote: "Turn an Alien 90 degrees" , as you are well aware, as this has been stated repeatedly, at 400 psi the blowback gun did have a perceptible rise. Below 200 PSI, no perceptible rise. To say that a player has to see the difference with "the(ir)  own eyes" is dishonest. I think you know that. At 100 or 150 feet it is very hard - really impossible - to tell the trajectory of the ball". You see where the balls are hitting and adjust. And now you want to make it all about the movement of the ball, rather than the tightness of the pattern. Alien guns shoot a pattern that is more oval and tighter. Plus you are all about how players that say they can tell the difference are seeing what they want to see, but now that it servers you - "with your own eyes" is good.

As you know, shortly after the "test" I sold a gun to Mike at half price so he could test it. He said he sold it to a team mate - and that the team mate shot it and it shoots great. But that's not a test and neither is what you did. I have always said do the same test I do and you will get the same result. However, paint and barrel match will effect the test. Paint effects everything. You use paint that is bad enough and the added rotation will make the spread wider, but you know that.

The problem is you think this is personal. It's not. The problem is that 4 - 5 years ago you gave me your word that you would do a complete and full test if I would send you a gun. I sent the gun and you didn't do the test. Instead you used your "reputation" to slander my company. I think that is a despicable act and I say so.

Had you kept your word there would have been none of this. Had you kept your word and done honest testing your results would have closely matched mine.

i have no idea the point of this rant. it contains nothing which i have not already dealt with

 

^^^^^^

i even broke my own rule, and responded. but i am thankful:

the fact that now you can't even understand that 3 barrels and 2 different paints were used, proves just how grossly you have no understanding of our testing.

 


Edited by cockerpunk, 01 January 2014 - 05:48 PM.

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#147 Smoothieblit

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Posted 01 January 2014 - 06:10 PM

Im getting the popcorn and getting comfy


Edited by Smoothieblit, 02 January 2014 - 07:10 PM.

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#148 Jack Rice

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Posted 01 January 2014 - 06:18 PM

Andrewthewookie:

First: Being "right" can be just as important, and sometimes more important, than money. Think we can agree that we see that on these threads.

Second: Water tight - don't know how I would do that. However doing things to make a reasonable person suspect the results? No, I have tired to do just the opposite. Players said shoot more paint, chrono the guns,  and shoot different paint and different sized barrels - so I did.

I also sent two bolts to Mike with the gun I sold him. I have sent several open bolts to others that wanted to do tests. Only one has posted a test. Go to You Tube and Search Sweep Bolt Test. Lance Ds sweep bolt test will come up. Lance has a "personalized" commentary, but his very simple test shows the difference. It just happens. Also one of the magazines at this same time - I think it was "Paintball Sports" they did a test and printed he results saying that at 75 feet you could start to see the improvement ant 125 feet the results were clear.

See it's not that players ever say that the gun wasn't at least as good a shooter as the best they ever shot - or that many don't say" better" than anything else. It's that one guy, who went into it with a bias and doesn't show anything, says so. Then that "somehow counts" for something and "therefore" my tests must be rigged. By the same standard "Paintball Sports" too was wrong

Can I "prove" the test weren't somehow magically rigged. No, can't prove a negative. But I have been very open and did the test the best I could. If the test were 10 times better - if that is possible - I think the same players that like the test would still like it and the ones that don't still wouldn't.

Lastly, this supposed burden of proof. The burden of proof I have done, this will be my 10th year and not one player has ever called me and complained that the shot of the Alien wasn't good enough and on that basis they wish they hadn't bought the gun. Not one. Very few had mechanical problems and almost all were happy afterwards - but not one that stated the shot was exaggerated. The calls and emails I get are from players telling me they like the gun and "thanks for making a great gun". Sometimes players write just to say I'm sorry I sold mine I'm getting another. No complaints about the shot, not one! Well except for one guy - but then he didn't buy a gun and shoot it. He sat back and took cheap shots at it. IMO


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#149 Jack Rice

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Posted 01 January 2014 - 06:38 PM

Cockerpunk: You should talk to Scott about never having any interaction with him. He's the one that pointed out it was you at Cup. BTW why are you so feel to say Mike owns your balls.

As to the 3 barrels and test documents - I clearly said I just looked at the video again. Look it isn't there. Documents for tests that you don't show. Ehhh

If "Ultimate test" was said is what you now want to debate - not the fact that you promised to do things and then didn't do them. It seems clear you have given up the high ground.

Calling me illiterate, now we are back to you hiding at Cup, not because of Mike, rather because you feel free to be insulting, but only over a keyboard, unless of course you want players to think someone is typing as I dictate.


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#150 Cookybiscuit

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Posted 01 January 2014 - 07:41 PM

Wait, so why wouldn't turning an Alien sideways or upside down change the trajectory? Works just fine with an Apex or Flatline, I get that the Sweep is said to generate less rotation than either of those but even a slight curve would be observable if it were spinning the ball. Whats this about pressure and such?


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