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New gun from Alien paintball: Deception


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#201 AtomicAdrian

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Posted 12 January 2014 - 05:48 PM

Buying a product that has been advertised as doing something that it doesn't do is pretty crappy. On the other hand, more outrageous claims have been made in the wacky world of consumerism. The sweep bolt doesn't even really seem to add to the overall price of Alien markers. Cockerpunk, UV Halo and others made a very strong case concerning the true nature of the bolt, but "off topic" doesn't even begin to describe this thread right now.

 

EDIT: clarity 


Edited by AtomicAdrian, 12 January 2014 - 05:52 PM.

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#202 PREDATOR 47

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Posted 28 February 2014 - 11:57 PM

 

If I heard that right, there appears to be a balanced valve in there. Now you have my attention.

 

 



#203 andrewthewookie

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Posted 01 March 2014 - 12:07 AM

It's a knock open balanced spool. Basically it's just a poppet valve with a spool for a seal rather than a poppet face.

 

IMG_0171_1.jpg

 

1779924_1471078569773168_446518328_n.jpg


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#204 SPARTAN1147789

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Posted 01 March 2014 - 03:08 AM

Before completely moving away from the sweep bolt sweep system, I would like to propose a theory that could support both cockerpunk and jack rice, as since the bolt uses a little ramp to block half the airflow (correct me if I'm wrong) this could slightly cut back on air turbulence which could possibly result in a flatter trajectory shot. This may not always be true but it would be possible, so in reality while the sweep bolt may not be generating enough back spin to show a change in trajectory, the sweep bolt may be acting as an air turbulence dampening bolt which could possibly show a change in trajectory.

 

To illustrate this concept here's an animation of the air turbulence around the standard fep quest and the 4b bolt:

 

Since the air in the bolt is being more gradually guided it may cut back on air turbulence an possibly create a flatter trajectory. This is just a theory, but I thought I would throw it out there. As far as the new marker goes, it looks great, I am really looking forward to both the Alien Deception and Lurker Paragon, I know there's a lot of new high end releases like the cyborg 6, dm14, luxe 2.0 oled, dangerous power fusion elite, j4 torque, and etc.. Out of all the new markers I will say the Alien Deception and the Lurker Paragon are the only two markers that I see as being exceptional and innovative above the rest, the Deception in the stacked tube category (I realize it's not a poppet) and the Paragon in the single tube category. Jack I hope you keep up the good work.


Edited by SPARTAN1147789, 01 March 2014 - 03:11 AM.


#205 andrewthewookie

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Posted 01 March 2014 - 10:03 AM

Turbulence at the bolt has zero effect on trajectory.


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#206 SPARTAN1147789

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Posted 01 March 2014 - 10:16 AM

Yeah, I know, just thought I'd mention the possibility, either way I do like the fact that the sweep bolt may possibly cut back on air turbulence.



#207 Slu

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Posted 02 March 2014 - 04:53 PM

I had a few questions / Comments run through my head as I watched the video.

  1. That's a pretty tiny spool. With the air passage being so small and there being so many things for the air to travel around I don't see how this is an improvement over a standard poppet. It may be balanced now so the bolt will be moving forward with less force but this could be done with a poppet.
  2. Does this new valve require the same amount of maintenance/ Lubing as a standard Spool valve? They've added a critical seal and as it degrades so will the performance of the marker.
  3. I'm a little skeptical about the "Sound signature of a spool" it may open slower thus and that may take away the harsher leading edge sound but that's all. Correct me if I'm wrong but with the air passages being so small this will still take a lot higher operating pressure to get the paintball up to 300fps. 140-160psi? Or there is a lot larger dump chamber and the valve stays open a lot longer than a standard poppet?
  4. The shot may feel smoother but I would attribute that to the balanced valve and less moving mass. I don't think that there being a spool in the marker will make it shoot like a spool (I may be stating the obvious there) but It can be used as a sales gimmick. Ie it has a spool thus it'll shoot like a spool.  

Please correct me if I'm wrong on any of this because I am truly curious. I'm not bashing this marker and I have not shot it so this is all speculation on my part.



#208 SPARTAN1147789

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Posted 02 March 2014 - 06:43 PM

According to Jack Rice: 

 

 

the gun takes about 175 PSI to shoot 300 and there is not LPR - however that doesn't mean that the rammer is moved forward at 175 - I will have the video soon to show you how this is done. Too easy to have things misunderstood so won't go into it now.

So based on that I would assume it will have a similar poppet sound signature. However, the ram will be moving slower than in a normal poppet, so it would probably be similar to a spool in terms of smoothness, though that's just my assumption, and I think that's why he went with this design. Even though a poppet could be made smoother, a balanced valve system allows the force of the forward stroke and rearward stroke to be equal instead of a spring of a poppet dampening the force of the forward stroke and increasing the force of the rearward stroke. So in theory if rammers of a poppet system and this balanced valve system were to be operated at the same pressure with the same air volumes this valve would be smoother in the hands, while the net forces would technically be equal the fact that there would be less force on the back stoke with the balanced valve system would make it appear smoother. As far as lubing is concerned, I'm not sure, but I believe it will be similar to a poppet because I believe it's a sealed system so you shouldn't have to worry about lubing like all the other alien markers, but please correct me if I'm wrong. I don't believe the spool is a gimmick, it should be smoother than any poppet, but it will not be as quiet as a spool valve as the operating pressure is higher than any high end spool valve I know of, so it will probably be similar in smoothness, but it will definitely be louder.


Edited by SPARTAN1147789, 02 March 2014 - 07:14 PM.


#209 SPARTAN1147789

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Posted 03 March 2014 - 09:34 AM

Going back to the bolt thing I actually didn't mean it would result in a flatter trajectory, I meant it would appear that way because the air flow consistency would be improved, allowing the air to be better guided towards the path down the barrel, that being said any difference should only really be noticeable with an overbore, and even than it shouldn't be real significant.



#210 andrewthewookie

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Posted 03 March 2014 - 11:41 AM

And you'd still be wrong about that.


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#211 SPARTAN1147789

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Posted 03 March 2014 - 12:07 PM

Whatever, I din't say there would be a real difference, its simply better for air to flow that way, it's is why a supercar does not look like an SUV, to have airflow be better guided is just simply a better design. Will it make a difference, probably not (especially considering the barrel and everything), is it still a better design, yes.



#212 SPARTAN1147789

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Posted 03 March 2014 - 12:29 PM

By the way, I would not say the alien deception has the best air turbulence dampening system, I just think it's better than most poppets, if I was to pick the stock bolt with the best air turbulence dampening system I would have to give it to the Lurker Paragon. While it's not released yet, according to the bolt design it uses a perfectly curved bolt plunger, and a perfectly curved nose cone on the plunger which curves are most likely derived from a parabola to create the optimum air flow path given the length of the curved surface. Would it make a difference without these curves, probably not, but it is most definitely a better design. This is the point I'm trying to make, not that it's superior to any other bolt system, just that the alien deception bolt system has a better design than most stacked tube markers due to the air pathway.


Edited by SPARTAN1147789, 03 March 2014 - 12:30 PM.


#213 PREDATOR 47

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Posted 03 March 2014 - 05:18 PM


Whatever, I din't say there would be a real difference, its simply better for air to flow that way, it's is why a supercar does not look like an SUV, to have airflow be better guided is just simply a better design. Will it make a difference, probably not (especially considering the barrel and everything), is it still a better design, yes.

You'd also be incorrect on the bolded text as well. Example, I'll show you a picture of a couple of cars, and you go ahead and try to guess which one has a lowest coefficient of drag, i.e. which one cuts through the air more effectively.

 

A

Spoiler

B

Spoiler

C

Spoiler

D

Spoiler

E

Spoiler

 

 

Did you make a guess? Well, here's the answer. If you guessed A, B, C, or E you are wrong. It's actually D, the Toyota Camry actually has a lower coefficent of drag than the other four cars pictured, and the Koeniggsegg and Mclaren actually have the highest coefficent of drag out of the five cars pictured. There's a bit more to aerodynamics than just how something "looks".



#214 SPARTAN1147789

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Posted 03 March 2014 - 05:41 PM

I actually picked D out of the options, super cars and sports cars create drag on purpose to produce down force, suv's don't produce as much down force and the drag is opposing forward momentum in a suv rather than being beneficial, I probably should of chosen a better example, but I hope you see the point I'm trying to make. If you are trying to make something aerodynamic you must direct the air in the direction you want it to go, a super car directs the air downwards to provide down force to produce grip, SUV's just provide air resistance in the direction the vehicle is traveling without being beneficial, this is the point I'm trying to make, if you help guide the air where you want it to go it will be a better design. Note, I did not say a SUV produces more drag, I said super cars have their airflow better guided.


Edited by SPARTAN1147789, 03 March 2014 - 05:48 PM.


#215 andrewthewookie

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Posted 03 March 2014 - 05:47 PM

Reducing turbulence and increasing flow in a system will increase the efficiency of the system. It will have no effects on the paintball.

 

Now that we've got that cleared up...


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#216 SPARTAN1147789

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Posted 03 March 2014 - 05:51 PM

That sounds good to me.



#217 SPARTAN1147789

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Posted 03 March 2014 - 06:19 PM

Going back to the marker itself, based on a design perspective I would imagine it should be the smoothest stacked tube out there. I also looked at the J4 torque, but it just has a large dump chamber which should produce a quieter shot than any stacked tube, but it appears their is more force exerted in the rearward stroke than the forward stroke using a spring, so I imagine it will have smoothness similar to that of a high end poppet valve. If only the alien had a large dump chamber it would be quieter, that being said this marker looks very promising and I imagine it will be smoother than any other stacked tube because it has a light ram, it's balanced, and the ram technically operates at a lower pressure than the 175 psi operating pressure, Jack has not said how he did this, but I don't think he would lie about this. I truly think this is going to be the best stacked tube out there (as far as the bolt and spoppet valve is designed and smoothness is concerned, ergonomics will probably be more of a preference thing), and I imagine the efficiency should be around the same as any other alien marker based on the design, as the valve closes at the same rate as any other alien marker, Jack please correct me if I'm wrong about anything, but it looks like you have a winning design.



#218 andrewthewookie

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Posted 03 March 2014 - 06:22 PM

The force exerted does not have the effect you think it does. Feel comes from a multitude of factors, like speed of the rammer, pressure behind the valve, speed of the valve opening, etc. The force exerted on a rammer will have an effect on the speed at which it moves, but just to say "it has more force going back" means nothing.


Edited by andrewthewookie, 03 March 2014 - 06:23 PM.

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#219 SPARTAN1147789

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Posted 03 March 2014 - 07:10 PM

Yes it does, I guess I should explain myself, the force is technically equal in the forward and backward stroke (of course this is disregarding the force of the paintball leaving the barrel), however since in a poppet valve it hits a spring, that force is turned into potential energy which later assists the rammer in the rearward stoke, making the perceived force of the rearward stroke have more force than the forward stroke. I hope this makes sense, I don't think I'm breaking the laws of physics, just deriving my assumption based on the design of the markers. While I am aware that the kick is derived from multiple factors, if there are 2 markers with rammers of the same weight, using the same pressure, the same volume of air and the same bolt system with one using a poppet valve and one using this valve system the net force would be equal between the two. However, the poppet valve converts some of the force of the forward stroke to potential energy so there would be more force in the rearward stroke than the forward stroke, where the alien valve system would be perfectly balanced (again disregarding the force of the paintball leaving the barrel). While there will be kick in both markers due to the force of the paintball leaving the barrel, there should be less rearward kick in the alien deception marker, I hope this makes sense. I should also mention the poppet will have less forward kick than the deception due to the spring, but this won't be noticeable as the force of the paintball leaving the marker is greater than this, so you'll only really notice the rearward kick. However, if you want a recoil canceling valve you should check out the Lurker Paragon.


Edited by SPARTAN1147789, 03 March 2014 - 07:13 PM.


#220 andrewthewookie

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Posted 03 March 2014 - 07:46 PM

It doesn't matter if the rearward stroke has 4 times the force. Also, Force is measured as pressure times area. For all we know there is actually less force going backwards, you would have to do the calculations of the area of the rammer exposed to the pressure of the air (and just looking at the internals, it looks like there's actually way less rear pneumatic force than going forwards). Plus, the Torque has the spring act like a shutoff, it is only an extra force for the very initial part of the rearward stroke.

 

But again, force does not mean what you think it means in the context of shot quality. Force does not equal kick.


Edited by andrewthewookie, 03 March 2014 - 07:55 PM.

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#221 cockerpunk

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Posted 03 March 2014 - 07:55 PM

certainly doesn't need to have an oring sealing valve and all the losses of that, in order to be a balanced poppit (what is actually is). wonder why they did that?


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#222 SPARTAN1147789

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Posted 03 March 2014 - 08:28 PM

This why I assumed they all had equal specs besides the valve system, but I know what you're saying, due to every marker having different characteristics we can't no for sure that this will be smoother for sure, I'm just saying it is likely to be smoother, but we won't not for sure until we see a shooting video. I am aware force does not equal kick, but we must remember for every action there is an equal and opposite reaction, and since the rammer of the poppet is being forced forward with some of the force being converted to potential energy, this potential energy has no where to go but backwards, so with the added air pressure also aiding with the potential energy of the spring the rearward force would be greater, so the bolded text could not be true unless less air pressure or air volume is used on the return stroke:

 

It doesn't matter if the rearward stroke has 4 times the force. Also, Force is measured as pressure times area. For all we know there is actually less force going backwards, you would have to do the calculations of the area of the rammer exposed to the pressure of the air (and just looking at the internals, it looks like there's actually way less rear pneumatic force than going forwards). Plus, the Torque has the spring act like a shutoff, it is only an extra force for the very initial part of the rearward stroke.

 

But again, force does not mean what you think it means in the context of shot quality. Force does not equal kick.

I am not aware of any stacked tube markers that do that, but I could be wrong. As far as the torque is concerned, I am aware of that, but it appears there is still more force directed in the rearward direction. As far as kick is concerned, I believe it to be the vibration caused by the bolt movement which is then spread out throughout the marker, normally associated with the total force of that kick being the rearward force minus the forward force. Please correct me if I'm wrong in thinking that way, and as far as smoothness goes, I am not saying it is smoother than any other stacked tube marker, I'm just saying it very well could be, we won't no for certain until people get their hands on the marker.


Edited by SPARTAN1147789, 03 March 2014 - 08:39 PM.


#223 andrewthewookie

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Posted 03 March 2014 - 11:11 PM

This why I assumed they all had equal specs besides the valve system, but I know what you're saying, due to every marker having different characteristics we can't no for sure that this will be smoother for sure, I'm just saying it is likely to be smoother, but we won't not for sure until we see a shooting video. I am aware force does not equal kick, but we must remember for every action there is an equal and opposite reaction, and since the rammer of the poppet is being forced forward with some of the force being converted to potential energy, this potential energy has no where to go but backwards, so with the added air pressure also aiding with the potential energy of the spring the rearward force would be greater, so the bolded text could not be true unless less air pressure or air volume is used on the return stroke:

 

It doesn't matter if the rearward stroke has 4 times the force. Also, Force is measured as pressure times area. For all we know there is actually less force going backwards, you would have to do the calculations of the area of the rammer exposed to the pressure of the air (and just looking at the internals, it looks like there's actually way less rear pneumatic force than going forwards). Plus, the Torque has the spring act like a shutoff, it is only an extra force for the very initial part of the rearward stroke.

 

But again, force does not mean what you think it means in the context of shot quality. Force does not equal kick.

I am not aware of any stacked tube markers that do that, but I could be wrong. As far as the torque is concerned, I am aware of that, but it appears there is still more force directed in the rearward direction. As far as kick is concerned, I believe it to be the vibration caused by the bolt movement which is then spread out throughout the marker, normally associated with the total force of that kick being the rearward force minus the forward force. Please correct me if I'm wrong in thinking that way, and as far as smoothness goes, I am not saying it is smoother than any other stacked tube marker, I'm just saying it very well could be, we won't no for certain until people get their hands on the marker.

 

You're putting way too much emphasis on the poppet and it's effect on the rammer. Sure, there's going to be some rear force from the poppet, however, it only acts on the rammer for something like 1/16 to 1/8 inches at the most, and the majority of that force is during the impulse of the rammer stopping and reversing. For nearly the whole rearward stroke, it's only the pneumatic force acting on the rammer. Not to mention the Deception's valve appears to actually be pneumatically forward biased when it's open, so there's the spring force minus the inherent bias of the poppet.

 

As for your second statement, you're wrong. A standard stacked tube rammer always has less rearward force (which goes for pretty much any modern ram driven gun). For instance, my 09 Impulse rammer (which is nearly identical to an ego rammer) has at 50psi, 7.6lbs of forward force, and 3.3lbs of rearward force. Like I said earlier, force is just pressure times area, and the area behind the rammer sail o-ring has the whole rammer to push on. The front of the rammer sail only has the tiny space around the rammer shaft to the sail. You can see it in an animation: http://paintball.new...cheme.php?id=33

 

Now that we know there is always more forward force in those types of guns, take the idea that force has anything to do with shot quality and just throw it away. Let's take a look at solenoid restrictors - They modulate the speed at which the air can exhaust in front of the moving rammer, so by blocking the exhaust, you're slowing down the bolt. By opening up the exhaust, you're allowing it to move faster. Will they feel exactly the same because they had the same? Or will the slower moving rammer feel smoother than the faster rammer? Remember, kinetic energy is 1/2mv2. There is no force in that equation, since it doesn't matter what the force on an object is, only the mass and velocity.

 

Also, for reference, my Impulse pushes the bolt forwards with 7.6 lbs of force. My PMR pushes the bolt forwards with 11 lbs of force. Should the PMR feel rougher than my Impulse? Hell, my Marq puts just over 12 lbs of force on its forward stroke, yet it's one of the smoothest guns I've ever shot, spools included.

 

 

TL;DR - Ego style rammers have about half the rearward force as they have forward force, and the force that acts on a rammer means nothing about the shot quality of the gun.


Edited by andrewthewookie, 06 March 2014 - 09:18 PM.

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#224 SPARTAN1147789

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Posted 03 March 2014 - 11:19 PM

That makes sense, thanks for explaining it, I retract my statements, I was misinterpreting the way the markers were designed.



#225 SPARTAN1147789

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Posted 04 March 2014 - 11:52 AM

Since that's settled, does anybody know why Jack chose to go with this design, I'm assuming to make the marker smoother, but it doesn't seem to have an advantage over a traditional poppet valve design. I know there has to be a reason for going with this design, I'm just wondering what that reason is (optimized airflow, smoothness, reliability, sound signature, efficiency).


Edited by SPARTAN1147789, 04 March 2014 - 12:04 PM.


#226 unfated33

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Posted 04 March 2014 - 12:34 PM

Looking at the design, I think it's safe to rule out both reliability and efficiency as the design goals.  I'm not sure I'd give him optimized airflow, but I think there is room to at least discuss what was tried.  I would imagine the primary focus was on making a smoother poppet, but I dunno.


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#227 SPARTAN1147789

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Posted 04 March 2014 - 01:03 PM

Yeah, that's what I assumed as well but it doesn't seem it will offer a substantial improvement in smoothness as opposed to a traditional poppet design, I know the lighter ram will help, but that could be done with a poppet valve as well. Jack could you tell me why you went with this balanced poppet design, I am very curious to know.



#228 Jack Rice

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Posted 06 March 2014 - 08:56 PM

To the question: Why this poppet - but could be done with poppet valve as well.  Because quote doesn't seen to work???

 

This rammer can't be used in a true Poppet, balanced or not.

 

I tried many differ ways to get the Rammer lighter and get a smoother shot. About an ounce and a quarter is as low as we got it without raising the pressure and then at an ounce it started to be very counter productive. This Rammer, or because of it's weight we are calling it an actuator, is 0.2 ounces. We also lowered the weigh of the bolt. Overall we reduced the moving mass 55%. Pretty impressive, I think, especially in a double stacked design - made by a lot of manufactures for many years - when they all weight about the same.

 

The original motive was to reduce the sound signature and reduce the weight of moving mass and it was more successful than hoped for. It is a Spool sound signature - and the lighter weight.

The cool thing about the sound is that although the sound isn't half as loud, your ear perceives it as half. The human ear is very sensitive to changes in sound. The snapping branch can be  lower in decibels, but heard better than a sound that raises slowly. Or in this case, the opening of a poppet is located more easily vs. the opening of a spool.

 

 

 


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#229 SPARTAN1147789

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Posted 06 March 2014 - 09:37 PM

That makes sense, so this will be smoother and quieter than an alien invasion, is that correct? Also will maintenance be similar to other alien markers, or will it require more lubing?



#230 Jack Rice

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Posted 15 April 2014 - 09:23 AM

^

As far as "smoothness" the moving mass of the Deception is half of Invasion or Independence - so "smooth as a peach" and "quiet" - Deception will surprise on quiet, spool quiet, about as quiet as a shadow as it touches the ground - tried to put a smiley face there - but like the quotes and multi quotes &  the copy and paste - smiley faces don't work for me. (insert frown face here) 

Anyway - in about a week the newest version of the valve will be shown.

 

Actuator (rammer) maintenance is really unnecessary. One moving O'Ring and one stationary, as we have used for several years. However because it has a sleeve there are O'Rings on the outside, but they don't need servicing for the normal life of the gun.

The main valve has the two O'Rings, one for sealing and one as a balance. As mentioned the air pressure moves the O'Rings away from the sealing surface as it closes and the O'Ring have shown no wear. High quality O'Rings there, so there will be little need to service those either.


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#231 bigx

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Posted 15 April 2014 - 04:15 PM

Why do I have a feeling a good animation would make this so much simpler to understand. Concept sounds very sturdy and from your description it seems like it functions well in practice as well. You throw out a shooting video and an animation of the valve dynamics you can essentially silence all the haters. 


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#232 Jack Rice

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Posted 20 May 2014 - 04:36 PM

below :tup:


Edited by Jack Rice, 20 May 2014 - 05:20 PM.

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#233 griffan2

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Posted 20 May 2014 - 04:50 PM



#234 Jack Rice

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Posted 18 September 2014 - 09:42 AM

Just sent the gun out to ProMod (PBNation)

He posted this on his Facebook page

 

 

It's absolutely unreal how little barrel rise there is with the HPR/LPR configuration. I'm looking at several other markers in my collection and thinking "I used to think THAT was smooth?!" The barrel-to-body angle feels extremely intuitive to point and snapshoot with, unlike markers with more angled barrels, relative to the bolt assembly and grip angle. Drivetrain and valve were super-simple to maintain and held lube in place quite well considering how much air is rushing over that main seal. 

Additionally....I can't quite describe WHY it works, (I understand the physics concept behind it) but I'm seeing paintballs carry further when I had the rubber insert on the front of the bolt...the Sweep system they call it. Take two markers, side by side, and make the barrels parallel to each other. Chrono as close as possible. The paintballs fired from the marker equipped with the sweep bolt hit the ground farther downrange every time.

Paint-to-bore sizing with the sweep bolt means I can chrono lower, and still achieve the same range. I think the best way to describe it is that it has a similar effect as a hopup unit on an airsoft marker. 

All in all, I'm left speechless at how well the marker performs, even as a prototype platform. You better believe I'll have one coming in. 

~ProMod

 


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#235 Jack Rice

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Posted 23 October 2014 - 10:05 AM

FYI -

Guns are at anodizer being polished. I'll get one to Mike first thing so TechPB can review. Also promised one to Hustle for review. You will start to see players commenting on their guns in November


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#236 Toxin PB

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Posted 23 October 2014 - 02:55 PM

Wow, a mod from pbnation said it so it must be true! I don't care how badly you want this sweep bolt to work, it won't. Your gun cannot defy the laws of physics.

#237 andrewthewookie

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Posted 23 October 2014 - 03:00 PM

Wow, a mod from pbnation said it so it must be true! I don't care how badly you want this sweep bolt to work, it won't. Your gun cannot defy the laws of physics.

 

Relax. At this point we've discussed it to death, so I'd like to keep the thread on the focus of the gun just to avoid any future derailments. Also, Promod isn't actually a moderator, that's just his name.


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#238 tallsmallboy44

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Posted 23 October 2014 - 06:50 PM

FYI -

Guns are at anodizer being polished. I'll get one to Mike first thing so TechPB can review. Also promised one to Hustle for review. You will start to see players commenting on their guns in November

Cool, I've been wondering what the status on these was.


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