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PSP sanctions against TonTon's

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#1 LegionPB

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Posted 05 September 2013 - 12:07 PM

Taken from Paintballx3.com:

 

PSP has come to a decision regarding the incident at the PSP West Coast event in which the professional team TonTons Flinguers had numerous guns in excess of competitive allowances and safety standards.

Penalties for the hot guns were issued during the event per the PSP rules governing game play. 

 



PSP has decided that additional sanctions are warranted following review of game footage, testimony of officials on site, examination of equipment, and interviews with TonTons players.

One or more members of the team willfully took the field with intention of playing the game while knowing their markers were in excess of allowable speed limits. The players in question showed an unjustifiable disregard for the standards in which tournament paintball can safely and fairly be conducted.

The number of players and the degree of excess warrant the additional sanctions. PSP feels the actions fall into the area of unsportsmanlike behavior. 

 



As such, all TonTons matches during the event in which the incidents occurred will be forfeited. The TonTons team will receive zero seed points for the 4th event. Event standings for other teams will be adjusted accordingly.

In addition, the TonTons team will be allowed to play PSP events on a probationary basis through Nov 1st, 2014.

 

The specifics of the probation will be made clear to the team. In general, any violation of the probation will result in the entered team and all players being suspended indefinitely from PSP events, as well as the organization, TonTons Flinguers, being barred from competition in future PSP events.  


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#2 jimbob23929

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Posted 05 September 2013 - 03:13 PM

Dam, that's some heavy shit.  But I do believe it is warranted.


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#3 XGC_Cheevo

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Posted 05 September 2013 - 03:58 PM

Damn...! PSP is taking a stiff, but justifiable stance to this.  I can't say I'm suprised either.  Will be interesting to see how TonTons are treated at Cup.



#4 TheGuy

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Posted 05 September 2013 - 04:09 PM

At least we know everyone will be on top of chronoing their guns now.


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#5 awesompants

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Posted 05 September 2013 - 04:26 PM

Lol good. They deserved it.


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#6 Exile308

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Posted 05 September 2013 - 10:44 PM

As I said in the other thread I thought the Ton Tons did it on purpose sounds like the PSP agrees.  ".

One or more members of the team willfully took the field with intention of playing the game while knowing their markers were in excess of allowable speed limits" tells you all you need to know.  



#7 5ozofpain

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Posted 05 September 2013 - 11:03 PM

Why would Ton Tons do it on purpose? I am not saying it was alright for them to be shooting hot, but think about it, does it really make sense to be shooting hot on purpose at a professional level? That would be like a baseball player injecting steroids right before his at bat. They don't just crank up their guns because they know the refs would check. A pro team wouldn't risk loosing a game or even getting kicked out of a tournament for something so stupid. I think PSP does need to do something about it, but it had to be an accident of some sort and they don't deserve this. Aftershock and CEP were shooting hot also, not as extreme as the Ton Tons but still hot, so there had to be something going on.


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#8 Exile308

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Posted 05 September 2013 - 11:18 PM

Why would Ton Tons do it on purpose? I am not saying it was alright for them to be shooting hot, but think about it, does it really make sense to be shooting hot on purpose at a professional level? That would be like a baseball player injecting steroids right before his at bat. They don't just crank up their guns because they know the refs would check. A pro team wouldn't risk loosing a game or even getting kicked out of a tournament for something so stupid. I think PSP does need to do something about it, but it had to be an accident of some sort and they don't deserve this. Aftershock and CEP were shooting hot also, not as extreme as the Ton Tons but still hot, so there had to be something going on.

It doesn't matter why thy would do it. What matters is this".

One or more members of the team willfully took the field with intention of playing the game while knowing their markers were in excess of allowable speed limits"    The facts are they did know the guns were hot before they got on the field.   Honestly what advantage they may have gotten or not gotten doesn't matter.  What matters is they didn't give a damn about other players safety.   Lets face it Paintball is a very safe sport if you play within the rules.  But when you play outside the rules that changes.   The Ton Tons made a choice it was a bad one.  I think they will learn from it.   But cheating is cheating period.



#9 SynystrAssassin

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Posted 05 September 2013 - 11:40 PM

Why would Ton Tons do it on purpose? I am not saying it was alright for them to be shooting hot, but think about it, does it really make sense to be shooting hot on purpose at a professional level? That would be like a baseball player injecting steroids right before his at bat. They don't just crank up their guns because they know the refs would check. A pro team wouldn't risk loosing a game or even getting kicked out of a tournament for something so stupid. I think PSP does need to do something about it, but it had to be an accident of some sort and they don't deserve this. Aftershock and CEP were shooting hot also, not as extreme as the Ton


Yeah but how in the world would their guns shoot 352 unintentionally? Who/what is there to blame other than the players? The guns? Three majors were thrown because of faulty, high-end Dye equipment?

On a side note, the dude shooting hot on CEP was chronoed at 402 I believe, as quoted by Matty during the Ton Ton/Shock shenanigans

#10 5ozofpain

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Posted 05 September 2013 - 11:53 PM

 

Why would Ton Tons do it on purpose? I am not saying it was alright for them to be shooting hot, but think about it, does it really make sense to be shooting hot on purpose at a professional level? That would be like a baseball player injecting steroids right before his at bat. They don't just crank up their guns because they know the refs would check. A pro team wouldn't risk loosing a game or even getting kicked out of a tournament for something so stupid. I think PSP does need to do something about it, but it had to be an accident of some sort and they don't deserve this. Aftershock and CEP were shooting hot also, not as extreme as the Ton


Yeah but how in the world would their guns shoot 352 unintentionally? Who/what is there to blame other than the players? The guns? Three majors were thrown because of faulty, high-end Dye equipment?

On a side note, the dude shooting hot on CEP was chronoed at 402 I believe, as quoted by Matty during the Ton Ton/Shock shenanigans

 

I know what you are saying and it is weird, but their guns get chronoed every game and it wasn't happening in previous games. They were already up 4 points in a Sunday game and they had no reason to cheat. I am not sure who to blame, I am just saying it doesn't seem like the players would do that  intentionally. 


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#11 TK-421

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Posted 06 September 2013 - 12:36 AM

Why would Ton Tons do it on purpose? I am not saying it was alright for them to be shooting hot, but think about it, does it really make sense to be shooting hot on purpose at a professional level?

 

Does it really make sense that their guns would be shooting that hot all by themselves? It makes more sense to think that the player did it, rather than the marker did it on its own. Especially when some markers were shooting hot, and others weren't. I could see it being more of a mechanical fault if all of the guns were doing it, but only a few leads me to believe that people had an intentional part in it, rather than the marker doing it by itself.



#12 Old Dude PB

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Posted 06 September 2013 - 06:40 AM

Crazy stuff happening around this incident. Laurent Hamet (Millenium Series board member, Adrenaline Games/Sup Air owner, former TonTon) lit up the PSP about a vendetta against the TonTons and institutional corruption in the PSP on PBN. Here's a link to get started, if you're interested: http://viewfromthede...h-gasoline.html



#13 imnothim

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Posted 06 September 2013 - 08:30 AM

So the gun that shot 352 was on the first shot only correct? If so, what could a player intentionally do to their marker to get it to shoot hot for one shot but not the rest? And of what benefit would one hot shot be? You start firing as your raising your marker. The first few shots hit the ground/bunker etc. not into your lane.

Also I've read that he should have been able to tell that his gun was shooting hot. I agree with this especially on a pro level. However in the course of one second, out of 12.5 balls, while your breaking out running and gunning and otherwise concentrating on a few thing at once, could any of us notice 1 shot hot?

The guns chronoing consistantly over 300fps could have been intentional by the player. This one I'm not so sure on.

 

As a side note, in a case like this it would be nice if they recorded (officially) and released the actual chrono reading in the oder they happened (e.g. 352, 298,292,301,298 etc.) I think this would lend a little more clarity for us armchair quarterbacks.



#14 XGC_Cheevo

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Posted 06 September 2013 - 09:05 AM

A professional organization shouldn't have to defend its disciplinary actions to the average player.  If they say it was intentional after interviewing the players themselves who the shot the markers I believe them.  That many markers having that many "un-intentional" issues is fishy, there's no doubt about that at all. 

 

Just because you are ahead going into a round doesn't mean the will to win is any less than if you are losing going into that same round.

 

I agree with Exile308.

 

The Ton Tons made a choice it was a bad one. I think they will learn from it. But cheating is cheating period.



#15 TechPB-Mike

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Posted 06 September 2013 - 10:36 AM

I'll tell you right now, my experience with any of these paintball leagues, is that if you issue a press release speaking out about what happened, be prepared to be punished severely 

 

If you play any tourament series, don't speak out, don't issue press releases, don't talk about anything that happened in the forums afterwards, don't say a fucking word

 

Not... one.... word

 

It seems that every single a time a team speaks out, or tries to explain their actions publicly, these leagues will absolutely punish them to incredible lengths to prevent any sort of speaking out in the future.

 

When dealing with the "big leagues", you are completely unrepresented and alone, and at their mercy. There is no place to appeal, no place to fight, no one to mediate, nothing. You can't "escalate" it to a manager, you have no place to go, and no power to do anything but take WHATEVER punishment they decide to impose on you.

 

It does not matter what happens on the field, or what you got on video, or what your intentions were, etc.

 

If you play tournament paintball, DO NOT EVER GO PUBLIC against a big league with what happened. You will make a bad situation 100 times worse, by discussing the incident publicly. 

 

You see constantly happening from everything from D4 to Pro Paintball. 

 

1) An incident happens at the tournament

2) Penalties and punishment is imposed at the field

3) Everyone moves on

4) Someone from the team speaks out publicly, issues a press release or discusses the incident in the forums / blog

5) The league re-reviews the incident, and forfeits the team on everything going backwards, and suspends them for a year going forwards

6) Team shows up to the first event they are allowed to play, and gets ref'd out at the next event

7) Team quits that league and starts playing another one

 

(ref-d out is code for retaliation reffing) 

 

Pay you money, play the event, keep your fucking mouth shut, move on to the next event. Take a mental note every time you see something like this, tell me if you've ever witnessed "speaking out" working in the teams favor. It never does, it makes things 100 times worse, in the past, present, and in the future. 



#16 BurningPlaydoh

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Posted 06 September 2013 - 12:06 PM

For the marker firing at 352 for one shot Ive heard reg creep could cause that issue in Dye markers. Dont know if thats true. Maybe Pakistani or someone else experienced with DMs could comment on that?

Edited by BurningPlaydoh, 06 September 2013 - 12:07 PM.


#17 HeroForADay

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Posted 06 September 2013 - 12:19 PM

For the marker firing at 352 for one shot Ive heard reg creep could cause that issue in Dye markers. Dont know if thats true. Maybe Pakistani or someone else experienced with DMs could comment on that?

Regular reg creep with your stock reg seat to that measure is rare. If it's that worn and causing a reg to creep up, it generally isn't 50+ FPS, it's usually less than 25. 

I'll say that as a tournament player... there are ways of MAKING your regulator creep up by tampering with some parts. The process varies from marker to marker, but it's much like setting up old autocockers to spike the system pressure and fire god damn hot. It's always existed. 



#18 andrewthewookie

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Posted 06 September 2013 - 12:24 PM

The way Hyper 3s are built, it is impossible for a damaged o-ring to have been the cause. Since it is a standard moving base reg, there are two critical o-rings around the piston, both of which would vent out the bleed hole if damaged. If the o-ring at the top of the piston was damaged, it would bleed out the pressure in the gun with the reg itself slowly opening to match that bleed rate. If the bottom o-ring was damaged, tank pressure would exit the bleed hole, and nothing would happen. If both o-rings were damaged, then both would cause pressure to exit the bleed hole on the side of the reg. This is the only possible instance where there is a potential for the gun to be exposed to a higher pressure from o-ring failures in the reg. However, that's what the bleed hole is for. The kind of pressure differential to overcome not one, but two damaged o-rings would cause a violent leak out the bleed hole, and you'd lose your tank pressure in minutes. There's no way he'd be using the gun in that situation. The only way for a Hyper 3 reg to creep and not be leaking is with a damaged reg seat.

 

TL;DR - The velocity spike could not have been caused by damaged o-rings in the reg, only damaged reg seats could allow for reg creep like they claim.

 

Either it's a damaged reg seat, or they were legitimately cheating.


Edited by andrewthewookie, 06 September 2013 - 12:37 PM.

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#19 gibbeepbroxzor

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Posted 06 September 2013 - 12:54 PM

Also if they were having some bolt stick issues, they could have upped the abs setting or fsdo settings as well as even the dwell in the first place. So that plus whatever else could POSSIBLY explain that high first shot speed. Honestly the other guys werent shooting all that hot, it was really just one gun. If they did more chrono checks on field, youd probably see guys shooting ~305 rather often.



#20 BurningPlaydoh

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Posted 06 September 2013 - 01:00 PM

Also if they were having some bolt stick issues, they could have upped the abs setting or fsdo settings as well as even the dwell in the first place. So that plus whatever else could POSSIBLY explain that high first shot speed. Honestly the other guys werent shooting all that hot, it was really just one gun. If they did more chrono checks on field, youd probably see guys shooting ~305 rather often.

DMs have a fixed volume dump chmaber though so from what Ive been hearing ABS settings wouldnt be the cause. Plus it was fucking hot out so I doubt theyd be having FSDO issues.

#21 andrewthewookie

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Posted 06 September 2013 - 01:05 PM

If I was a gun tech for a team like that, I'd be running all the LPRs just a bit higher than stock, and all the Dwells maybe one or two points higher, just to make sure the guns worked consistently all the time. If I let guys out and the guns all got bolt stick, I wouldn't be doing a very good job.


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#22 JGARRIGUES0001

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Posted 06 September 2013 - 01:59 PM

I don't think anything that happened was that bad to be honest, not until you look at the whole picture. One player set his ABS too high, and a few others barely went over the legal limit. Those shots that barely broke 300 could be blamed on weather affecting the paint, which to me would just call for a penalty on the field. But when you look at the fact that the majority of their players taking the field had these issues it's really odd. If they knowingly took the field with markers shooting on the edge of being hot then they have nobody to blame but themselves. I would like to know where the gun tech was, or what the guy was thinking when his marker was shooting over 340 fps on his first shot. That's a pretty clear indication that he needs to dwell tune his marker and then set his ABS properly.



#23 andrewthewookie

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Posted 06 September 2013 - 02:03 PM

An ABS setting on a gun with an isolated dump chamber would not cause it to jump 50fps. It's just not possible.


Edited by andrewthewookie, 06 September 2013 - 02:03 PM.

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#24 JGARRIGUES0001

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Posted 06 September 2013 - 02:33 PM

Not possible??? It wouldn't be if you have the dwell set up properly, but if dwell is set a little too low and conditions change to make your current dwell setting a little lower than what it should be and you compensate by raising pressure then there you go. I'm giving the player the benefit of the doubt though, he did claim it was an ABS setting issue. Which is exactly why I'm thinking what in the world was he (or the gun tech) thinking/doing leaving the dwell setting too low to dump the entire chamber on a normal shot. Dwell tuning is a very simple thing to do.  



#25 andrewthewookie

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Posted 06 September 2013 - 02:51 PM

No, I mean given the design of a DM, and the isolated dump chamber, you're already on the tail end of the pressure with standard dwell. Adding dwell time ensures that the bolt can overcome the stiction and fully open. If it does not encounter stiction, and ends up leaving the bolt open for an extra few milliseconds, you're just letting extra residual pressure out long after the paintball is gone. Depending on the setup, that might add like 5 or 10 fps at the most, but 50 fps is a physical impossibility with a DM.


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#26 Jawz

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Posted 06 September 2013 - 03:59 PM

I'm actually really surprised that Dye didn't react at all, seeing that Dye is so largely a part of the PSP and that they haven't intervened or put in alittle more thorough of an investigation is pretty strange to me. Either the PSP wanted to ban the Ton Ton's from competing as a whole, or Dye are trying to set an example by showing that even a team sponsored by them is not safe, or even the small possibility (However small it is) that Dye are look at taking out some competition through these means, it's small but anything's possible?


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#27 Irish725

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Posted 06 September 2013 - 06:49 PM

PSP ain't fucking around, they are bringing the hammer down on the TonTon's...


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#28 DerekDaPaintballa

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Posted 06 September 2013 - 09:15 PM

If you want people to follow the rules enforce them. Good job PSP! You can definitely tell when a marker is shooting 350+


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#29 JGARRIGUES0001

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Posted 06 September 2013 - 09:45 PM

No, I mean given the design of a DM, and the isolated dump chamber, you're already on the tail end of the pressure with standard dwell. Adding dwell time ensures that the bolt can overcome the stiction and fully open. If it does not encounter stiction, and ends up leaving the bolt open for an extra few milliseconds, you're just letting extra residual pressure out long after the paintball is gone. Depending on the setup, that might add like 5 or 10 fps at the most, but 50 fps is a physical impossibility with a DM.

gotcha, so then what happened with his first shot to make it shoot 50 over the limit?



#30 BurningPlaydoh

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Posted 06 September 2013 - 10:05 PM

Just playing devil's advocate... What if this is retaliation for what happened between Heat and Ton Tons in Millenium?

#31 Jawz

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Posted 06 September 2013 - 10:37 PM

Just playing devil's advocate... What if this is retaliation for what happened between Heat and Ton Tons in Millenium?

I don't really follow millenium, could you fill me in with what happened?


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#32 NBTIppy

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Posted 06 September 2013 - 10:37 PM

I think if the PSP is going to penalize the Ton Tons they need to be penalizing everyone that was found shooting hot that weekend. The player on CEP was shooting crazy hot too, he got a 3 game suspension and nothing else was said. CEP is using the same, "faulty o-ring in the reg" excuse and everyone is buying it, but with the Ton Tons its totally insane for them to be making that claim.That being said, it is extremely unlikely that ALL 4 of the Ton Tons players had the same issue, its very likely that there was cheating involved. However if this "faulty o-ring" is even a legit issue (which from what I've read here, is not) I think its perfectly plausible for at least 1 of the Ton Ton players to have this same "issue" that the CEP player was having.
I'm not even French or have an connection to France and this feels like a nationality issue to me if I'm completely honest. I know I'll get called out on that comment, feel free to, I'm not interested in an argument, I'm just saying that's how it feels to me.



#33 andrewthewookie

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Posted 06 September 2013 - 10:40 PM

Who says they aren't penalizing everyone who was breaking the rules? I don't think we ever had official word about any other teams shooting hot, just a few sentences from Matty Marshal during the broadcast. Perhaps only the TonTons actions were publicized to the extent they were is the reason we're only hearing about them.


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#34 NBTIppy

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Posted 06 September 2013 - 10:45 PM

According to what CEP players have been posting in a similar thread on PBN, the 3 games is what was given to the player and thats it, they jump down your throat if you mention the issue haha



#35 Jawz

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Posted 06 September 2013 - 11:00 PM

Probably cause there's a joy division player on the team, Psp officials be like "We don't accept his kind here", and Samuelson just doesn't understand what anyone's saying


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#36 BurningPlaydoh

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Posted 07 September 2013 - 01:17 AM


Just playing devil's advocate... What if this is retaliation for what happened between Heat and Ton Tons in Millenium?

I don't really follow millenium, could you fill me in with what happened?

Serious controversy over the reffing of the finals game w/Ton Tons vs Heat. With the way they were shooting guys off the break the hot guns honestly shouldnt have surprised me or anyone that saw the Millenium match.

#37 Jawz

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Posted 07 September 2013 - 08:08 PM

I doubt that them shooting guys off break was a result of them shooting hot, I mean there really isn't much of an advantage, you break more paint, and your shots are going everywhere because of the paint in your barrel after your gun inevitably breaks the extra brittle paint


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#38 Irish725

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Posted 07 September 2013 - 11:15 PM

I think the only reason why this is such a big deal, is the former owner and player on the Ton Tons, Hamet I think his name is, was freaking out about and calling it a conspiracy by the directors of the PSP. That's the only reason it became such an issue.


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