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New Empire D*Fender - Milsim gun with integrated loader in the stock


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#51 unfated33

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Posted 17 October 2013 - 03:25 PM

The DAM was effectively a failure of design.  It was heavy, hard to clean, prone to chops, had a poorly designed breech, and had logistics problems for using paintballs and FSR at the same time.  I doubt anyone would still think of the DAM at all if not for the well designed magazines.  If the D'fender works as well as the Axe without adding any crazy liability problems then it will be a big hit and the DAM will need serious improvements to keep from becoming a memory..


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#52 Praetorian

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Posted 17 October 2013 - 03:55 PM

1300...
Hell to the capital F no

id rather get a tac-one. Put a warp feed on it. Save about 700 in the process.

#53 TylerG10

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Posted 17 October 2013 - 04:33 PM

Well you don't have to buy a loader. And you get 2 barrels and 3 freak inserts. I think its a really cool idea. Would love to put some nasty paint though it just to see what happens when something breaks in there.



#54 StReaKeR

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Posted 17 October 2013 - 04:42 PM

I know right? a break in the feed tube and you gonna be in the parking lot for a game or two with this thing on the hood of your car (least you wont lose any tools in the process)


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#55 andrewthewookie

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Posted 17 October 2013 - 04:44 PM

Have you guys actually seen the videos and how it comes apart?


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#56 Punisher068

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Posted 17 October 2013 - 04:45 PM

The DAM was effectively a failure of design.  It was heavy, hard to clean, prone to chops, had a poorly designed breech, and had logistics problems for using paintballs and FSR at the same time.  I doubt anyone would still think of the DAM at all if not for the well designed magazines.  If the D'fender works as well as the Axe without adding any crazy liability problems then it will be a big hit and the DAM will need serious improvements to keep from becoming a memory..

Pretty much what I was thinking

Considering its a hybrid of existing,proven parts I don't think you could go wrong. 

DAM should have been based of the DM instead of the PMR platform

There's a real misalignment in the breech and magwell with the DAM I noticed that causes the magazine to release the rounds before the mag is seated to the breech,believe this is causing pinching and binding of the rounds



#57 XGC_Cheevo

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Posted 17 October 2013 - 04:47 PM

The most glaring issue is the single trigger.  And I do not like select fire switches.  But hey, thats me.  The rest is kind of cool.  Everyone's getting the bullpup design they always wanted.



#58 andrewthewookie

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Posted 17 October 2013 - 04:49 PM

DAM should have been based of the DM instead of the PMR platform

 

I'm curious why you think this. With the Rail platform they have a similarly performing spool without the need for a second regulator, as well as having a shorter engine than with a DM. If you're referring to the efficiency, that's just Dye not putting enough of an exhaust for the solenoid, and isn't a problem with the design of the bolt itself.


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#59 StReaKeR

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Posted 17 October 2013 - 04:49 PM

Have you guys actually seen the videos and how it comes apart?


Ok watched if again. Vid didn't show easy opening into the hopper. Unless you got a full tear down vid that you wanna link me to.
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#60 andrewthewookie

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Posted 17 October 2013 - 04:51 PM

Have you guys actually seen the videos and how it comes apart?


Ok watched if again. Vid didn't show easy opening into the hopper. Unless you got a full tear down vid that you wanna link me to.

 

You were talking about the feed tube, and said nothing about the hopper.


Edited by andrewthewookie, 17 October 2013 - 04:51 PM.

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#61 Punisher068

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Posted 17 October 2013 - 05:09 PM

 

DAM should have been based of the DM instead of the PMR platform

 

I'm curious why you think this. With the Rail platform they have a similarly performing spool without the need for a second regulator, as well as having a shorter engine than with a DM. If you're referring to the efficiency, that's just Dye not putting enough of an exhaust for the solenoid, and isn't a problem with the design of the bolt itself.

 

Too small a dump chamber for the bolt design,causes you to jack the pressure higher than the noid wants to operate causing venting or you blow the noid or hoses/gasket.You can compensate with dwell but than run into the issues of drop off and/or decreased ROF.The DM makes up for this with a slightly longer chamber/body as you mentioned,I would guess the bolt weight is alot less also

A standard LP reg is hard to get fine adjustments out of below 120-110 OP consitantly,so a 2nd lpr is used

When I find a spoolie that's efficiant I'll be in love

Just my 2¢ on this from modding spoolies



#62 andrewthewookie

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Posted 17 October 2013 - 05:17 PM

 

 

DAM should have been based of the DM instead of the PMR platform

 

I'm curious why you think this. With the Rail platform they have a similarly performing spool without the need for a second regulator, as well as having a shorter engine than with a DM. If you're referring to the efficiency, that's just Dye not putting enough of an exhaust for the solenoid, and isn't a problem with the design of the bolt itself.

 

Too small a dump chamber for the bolt design,causes you to jack the pressure higher than the noid wants to operate causing venting or you blow the noid or hoses/gasket.

This also goes back to the properly venting solenoid. It's the same reason you can lower the operating pressure of an Ion that has a QEV over an Ion that does not have a QEV. Also, the Reflex has about the same size dump chamber as the DAM.

 

You can compensate with dwell but than run into the issues of drop off and/or decreased ROF.The DM makes up for this with a slightly longer chamber/body as you mentioned

The DM is longer because the bolt itself is longer, the actual dump chamber size is not necessarily what makes it longer.

 

,I would guess the bolt weight is alot less also

Because the DM bolt is longer, it actually weighs more than a Reflex bolt

 

A standard LP reg is hard to get fine adjustments out of below 120-110 OP consitantly,so a 2nd lpr is used

This is not true, any properly designed reg can have perfectly fine adjustments at any operating pressure it was designed for

 

When I find a spoolie that's efficiant I'll be in love

Again, if Dye could let the solenoid vent faster it would make the gun more efficient.

 

Just my 2¢ on this from modding spoolies

 

 

So basically your complaints are with the overall gun, and is something Dye can fix. However, it's not because it's a Rail instead of a DM.


Edited by andrewthewookie, 17 October 2013 - 05:20 PM.

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#63 tallsmallboy44

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Posted 17 October 2013 - 06:15 PM


fuck yolo
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#64 Punisher068

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Posted 17 October 2013 - 07:10 PM

 

 

 

DAM should have been based of the DM instead of the PMR platform

 

I'm curious why you think this. With the Rail platform they have a similarly performing spool without the need for a second regulator, as well as having a shorter engine than with a DM. If you're referring to the efficiency, that's just Dye not putting enough of an exhaust for the solenoid, and isn't a problem with the design of the bolt itself.

 

Too small a dump chamber for the bolt design,causes you to jack the pressure higher than the noid wants to operate causing venting or you blow the noid or hoses/gasket.

This also goes back to the properly venting solenoid. It's the same reason you can lower the operating pressure of an Ion that has a QEV over an Ion that does not have a QEV. Also, the Reflex has about the same size dump chamber as the DAM.

 

You can compensate with dwell but than run into the issues of drop off and/or decreased ROF.The DM makes up for this with a slightly longer chamber/body as you mentioned

The DM is longer because the bolt itself is longer, the actual dump chamber size is not necessarily what makes it longer.

 

,I would guess the bolt weight is alot less also

Because the DM bolt is longer, it actually weighs more than a Reflex bolt

 

A standard LP reg is hard to get fine adjustments out of below 120-110 OP consitantly,so a 2nd lpr is used

This is not true, any properly designed reg can have perfectly fine adjustments at any operating pressure it was designed for

 

When I find a spoolie that's efficiant I'll be in love

Again, if Dye could let the solenoid vent faster it would make the gun more efficient.

 

Just my 2¢ on this from modding spoolies

 

 

So basically your complaints are with the overall gun, and is something Dye can fix. However, it's not because it's a Rail instead of a DM.

 

Yes pretty much,agree with you on most points,I do believe the DAM is fixable with a better venting noid,QEV,bolt and carrier or combo of each/all

Also with a LP that can run consitant at low OP if it was design for it,the Relay has proven to be a good match for my Ion XE,consistent with no dropoff@110 OP,the XE also has a smaller dump chamber than non BOB Ions



#65 The Recballer

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Posted 17 October 2013 - 08:07 PM

$450 Axe

$200 Z2

 

Both in one package = $1,300

 

No thanks. It's a great idea, and I would want one, but the price is ridiculous. Lower it to $800 and I might get it, but I'd likely go for the Torque instead. $700 and you've got a deal.


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#66 PhilMetalJacket

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Posted 17 October 2013 - 08:10 PM

I didn't want to say it, since my fun XM8 theory was crazy enough, but the foregrip in the blob teaser also made me think, at the time, of the TAR-21 bullpup from Israel.

 

I think the D*Fender looks great, except for the name. As someone who had considered the DAM, the cost be damned, but was probably mostly going to go with a hopper (and would need to go buy a Rotor or something) rather than magfed, this seems perfect. And I feel like that's not a totally unusual perspective. If I was just about willing to spend that much anyway, I might as well get something that's better suited to my needs.

 

One thing strikes me as odd, though. This is as premium as any Empire marker gets, but while it's available in black and grey (which is pretty unusual), it isn't available (so far) in Terrapat or E-TACS. Not dark earth or OD, either, which seems a bit of a misstep. The TM-15 LE, the former premium marker, comes in black, tan, Terrapat, and E-TACS.

 

One really minor detail that I like, particularly in contrast to the DAM: A sling mounting point on the side. The DAM just never had a simple mounting point for clipped on slings, it had to be added, and the stock was not ideally shaped for wraparound-style slings. So, there's also that.



#67 tallsmallboy44

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Posted 17 October 2013 - 08:20 PM

There will probably be more colors released later down the road.


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#68 Exile308

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Posted 17 October 2013 - 08:49 PM

I think the concept is cool but I think it is over priced.  It is a milsim Axe a nice loader.  Should cost about 800 and I would be in.   It is nice to see a completely new concept like this for a marker though.



#69 Nokified

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Posted 17 October 2013 - 11:32 PM

I personally like the location of the loader.  It sits closer to the shoulder with the tank so it is a way different feel than the traditional setup.  Traditional setup shifts weight when you shoot paint whereas this will always have the majority of the weights in the back.  I would take this over what someone said earlier about having boxmag and top feeding loaders.  Not that it's a big deal to speedball players as they tend to finish a round within ten minutes.  However, for woodsball, if im gonna hold down one position i would like my arm to not be purple after holding that area.  

Anyways, that;s what im taking away with this - the location of the loader.  Of course kudos to other innovations, etc.  Not too thrilled about the price either especially for that trigger and no alternative feedneck/fs capable.  Im guessing empire thought they can compete directly with the dam



#70 SuperG91

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Posted 18 October 2013 - 01:30 AM

Both the DAM and Dfender are $1300

I cannot nope harder.


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#71 LegionPB

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Posted 18 October 2013 - 10:09 AM

The DFENDER should have been priced at around $800, then it would have KILLED DAM sales altogether and would have been (probably) the premier woodsball marker. The price tag is insane for what it is. It's basically a TM7 with a hopper attached to the back and it's a lot easier to clean. Cool concept don't get me wrong, but not worth the money. I'll be sticking with my G-1 ;) (which can switch between firing modes with the push of a button, nothing new there).


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#72 Sydarm

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Posted 18 October 2013 - 11:23 AM

It's expensive but feels really nice in the hands.

#73 get.lit.up!

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Posted 18 October 2013 - 06:57 PM

All I have to say is that they lost me at non magfed
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#74 SplatSplatOrange

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Posted 18 October 2013 - 07:33 PM

The only problem I found beside the prices is want about people with different sized arms? The stock isn't adjustable screwing over short armed people.

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#75 fatalreaction

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Posted 19 October 2013 - 01:58 AM

I agree on the non-adjustable stock, couldn't care less about FSR capabilities or mag fed capability... honestly i'm surprised FSR's have caught on as well as they have since they're so damn expensive to shoot regularly.

 

As far as the price of the Dfender goes... well the things cased in MAGNESIUM... that shit aint cheap, and is a helluva lot more durable than aluminum. The strength to weight ratio is crazy, I mean Le Mans racers have been using magnesium wheels for ever because of weight savings. and in an application like this you will most likely NEVER see one that has a faded color or all nasty scratched up



#76 andrewthewookie

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Posted 19 October 2013 - 02:15 AM

From what I'm seeing around, the magnesium is cast into the body shapes, which is actually cheaper in the long run than machining aluminum.


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#77 Praetorian

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Posted 19 October 2013 - 09:08 AM

no mag fed really a deal killer? Its just a bull-pup with a drum attached.. Its begining to grow on me. Just not the price.

#78 zegreatone

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Posted 19 October 2013 - 03:33 PM

its a really cool idea, just seams over priced though. a couple hundred dollars off and it would sell.



#79 No Mercy Ever

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Posted 19 October 2013 - 06:36 PM

I haven't checked the UWL as of late, but last I saw, they limited rate of fire to 15 bps? And you could use certain hoppers, like Pinokios and Rotors, as long as you had jumpers to limit how fast they fed. Maybe I am missing something, but this does not look like you can limit your hopper, and can't use it in the UWL.

#80 andrewthewookie

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Posted 19 October 2013 - 06:42 PM

In the 2013 rules, all the guns are limited to 10 bps semi, except for the heavy gunner, and I do not see any bps limit for that role. I also do not see any mention of the limited hoppers. It was probably a part of an older set of rules.


Edited by andrewthewookie, 19 October 2013 - 06:43 PM.

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#81 Exile308

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Posted 19 October 2013 - 08:31 PM

I think the UWL hopper rule was for guns that didn't have the ablity on a board to set a cap limit for the gun.



#82 Irish725

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Posted 19 October 2013 - 08:32 PM

They used to have a limit on loaders that used 9volt batteries. I believe they got rid of that rule, because almost no loaders use 9volts any more (except the Pinokio and some of the older models). I will say again, interesting concept, but basically its an Axe and a Z2 cast into a new body. I bought a new Axe and a new Z2 last year, paid about 600 something for it all after taxes. This is 700 dollars MORE then that...


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#83 chadude100

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Posted 17 November 2013 - 01:15 AM

I shot this gun today and was impressed.

https://www.youtube....eature=youtu.be

Shooting Video!!


Edited by chadude100, 17 November 2013 - 09:33 PM.





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