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DM14 rant


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#51 AoSpades

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Posted 19 October 2013 - 12:10 PM

Y'all are bitching about nothing, and the $1600 price-point is the reason why said bitching is pointless.
$1600 is an insane amount to spend on a paintball gun for the very reasons listed before me (price of a car / college semester). So any amount of bitching about this gun is indeed pointless as it shouldn't be even considered in the first place unless you shit gold and piss diamonds.

/end "I'm cheap as fuck" rant
 


I'm not a cheap person, that's the thing. I can afford a few I these if I really wanted to. My issue is that the price outweighs the product. As I said before, this is a Proto Matrix, plain and simple. Their Proto line has always been less than their DM line, but since they haven't released a Proto in 5 years they brought it back under the guise of a Dye Matrix and are charging double what they were charging for the Proto line when it was still active.

You can spend $1300 on the new Bob Long marker and get a spool and inline poppet engine, two additional barrel backs, parts kit, OLED board, macroless, quick-release bolt, Made in America, and excellent CS. The DM14 brings only half of that to the table and expects $300 more. I will never buy a DM marker new, ever, for the simple fact is that they are always behind the innovation curve.

It's not that I can't afford it, I simply don't want to buy a blatantly obvious outdated and overall lacking marker.

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#52 Praetorian

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Posted 19 October 2013 - 01:09 PM

lol. But spending a stupid amount of on a sub-par gun is worth bitching about.

#53 AoSpades

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Posted 19 October 2013 - 04:56 PM

It more of me trying to drive people away from purchasing these brand new than anything else. I've made a huge stink about this marker in the PBN news thread as well.


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#54 Praetorian

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Posted 19 October 2013 - 06:26 PM

i know ace... I read sometimes.

I'm just sick of the death threats if i say something bad about a PE gun on their.. So i stay quiet about the GSL this time.

#55 andrewthewookie

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Posted 19 October 2013 - 06:27 PM

But they put holes on the back of the bolt! True innovation. I mean, it only took Dangerous Power doing it for PE to do it.


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#56 AoSpades

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Posted 19 October 2013 - 06:45 PM

i know ace... I read sometimes.

I'm just sick of the death threats if i say something bad about a PE gun on their.. So i stay quiet about the GSL this time.

At least the GSL comes with a board you can actually read.

 

Just think of it this way. The people who matter understand what you are saying, the people who don't matter are the agglets sending you death threats. They just be trollin' brah.


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#57 Praetorian

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Posted 19 October 2013 - 06:55 PM

i know. 2 little goblins got banned after i said the lv1 pipe was a sewer pipe and it reflects the shit they are making.

#58 Irish725

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Posted 20 October 2013 - 06:52 AM

Ya'll are all bitchin about the DM, I'm just sitting here quietly goin "Woo Vanguard.."

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#59 TechPB-Mike

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Posted 20 October 2013 - 08:20 AM

I got a DM14

 

So now this happens-

 

wow.gif



#60 tcheekdye

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Posted 20 October 2013 - 08:44 AM

Dear God...

Edited by tcheekdye, 20 October 2013 - 08:44 AM.

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#61 BurningPlaydoh

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Posted 20 October 2013 - 10:09 AM

I got a DM14
 
So now this happens-
 
wow.gif


I think he likes it.

#62 The Recballer

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Posted 20 October 2013 - 02:10 PM

I got a DM14

 

So now this happens-

 

wow.gif

haha.

 

 

I demand a video.


Edited by The Recballer, 20 October 2013 - 02:11 PM.

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#63 The Recballer

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Posted 20 October 2013 - 02:42 PM

Now I'm going to say this right off the bat, I don't think DMs are horrible guns. I just hate what they've been saying about the DM14. On ANSGear's ad it says DM14-Completetly Redesigned- I call bullshit. All they did was mill an air passage through the gun, mill off some excess metal, and move the LPR. That is certainly not redesigned. In the description the of the marker they put lots of enphasis on its decrease in length.... By less than half an inch! That's not that far, if I was blindfolded and held 2 markers, one being half an inch longer than the other, I wouldn't be able to tell the difference between the two. Now I know people are going to argue that now it has the Hyper4 and tool less grips, but I don't really care about that as it's doesn't affect performance. If Dye made this macro less AND have an OLED then I would be in favor of this gun. But seriously, I can get the same performance out of a DM12 or maybe even a DM9 for less than half the price of this. The End

If it had an OLED, you'd still be able to get the same performance out of a DM12.

 

You people seem to think that OLEDs make guns shoot better...


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#64 Ultimatefinn

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Posted 20 October 2013 - 05:28 PM

Now I'm going to say this right off the bat, I don't think DMs are horrible guns. I just hate what they've been saying about the DM14. On ANSGear's ad it says DM14-Completetly Redesigned- I call bullshit. All they did was mill an air passage through the gun, mill off some excess metal, and move the LPR. That is certainly not redesigned. In the description the of the marker they put lots of enphasis on its decrease in length.... By less than half an inch! That's not that far, if I was blindfolded and held 2 markers, one being half an inch longer than the other, I wouldn't be able to tell the difference between the two. Now I know people are going to argue that now it has the Hyper4 and tool less grips, but I don't really care about that as it's doesn't affect performance. If Dye made this macro less AND have an OLED then I would be in favor of this gun. But seriously, I can get the same performance out of a DM12 or maybe even a DM9 for less than half the price of this. The End

If it had an OLED, you'd still be able to get the same performance out of a DM12.
 
You people seem to think that OLEDs make guns shoot better...
I do not think they make them shoot better. I was simply pointing out that performance wise DMs have not changed significantly since 09. I was pointing two different problems with the DM line and you adjoined them. I thought I made it clear enough that they were separate but I guess that you have trouble understanding your first language.
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#65 AoSpades

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Posted 20 October 2013 - 06:35 PM

 

Now I'm going to say this right off the bat, I don't think DMs are horrible guns. I just hate what they've been saying about the DM14. On ANSGear's ad it says DM14-Completetly Redesigned- I call bullshit. All they did was mill an air passage through the gun, mill off some excess metal, and move the LPR. That is certainly not redesigned. In the description the of the marker they put lots of enphasis on its decrease in length.... By less than half an inch! That's not that far, if I was blindfolded and held 2 markers, one being half an inch longer than the other, I wouldn't be able to tell the difference between the two. Now I know people are going to argue that now it has the Hyper4 and tool less grips, but I don't really care about that as it's doesn't affect performance. If Dye made this macro less AND have an OLED then I would be in favor of this gun. But seriously, I can get the same performance out of a DM12 or maybe even a DM9 for less than half the price of this. The End

If it had an OLED, you'd still be able to get the same performance out of a DM12.
 
You people seem to think that OLEDs make guns shoot better...

God it's like no matter what I say or how I say it people always revert back to this same post like I didn't answer the reasoning behind it in the first place...
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Edited by AoSpades, 20 October 2013 - 09:10 PM.

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#66 Praetorian

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Posted 20 October 2013 - 10:27 PM

my vapor shoots 10x smoother than a luxe because my oled. . . . Ha

#67 AoSpades

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Posted 21 October 2013 - 12:11 AM

You ever get the feeling that you're talking to goldfish?


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#68 J3R3MY

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Posted 21 October 2013 - 09:29 AM

The DM line has to be worth something to somebody, otherwise Dye would cancel the line before it sank their ship....

 

That being said, i am finding it difficult to see why people who claim it isn't worth its price take sooo much time to go out of their way to tell everyone how "not worth it"/bad it is.... If it were really bad everyone would simply agree that it was.... Its not that bad, so personal preference rules IMO...



#69 andrewthewookie

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Posted 21 October 2013 - 09:59 AM

Because the more people that buy the DM as it is, Dye is that much more likely to keep not actually putting parts in the guns that would be representative of a gun that expensive. It took them years to finally go macroless (I'm still unhappy with the direction that PE took, but that's for another thread), and they currently have the most outdated user interface with the LED board. There is literally no excuse for not putting an OLED in a gun, and everyone who says otherwise has yet to provide an actual benefit to LED over OLED, so far it's usually just been "don't be lazy, memorize the lights," or, "we don't need OLED," or my favorite, "it doesn't make the gun better." It actually does make the gun better though. The overall quality of a gun is not determined by shot quality alone, or looks alone, etc. It is determined by the overall package. Dye could have made the best shooting gun ever, and it would still not be worth it without an OLED for the price it is. Because let's be honest here, the shot quality will be the same as all the other DMs, the efficiency will be about the same, they're years late to the macroless party, they moved an LPR, and still have an outdated user interface. They've done nothing new or noteworthy, just finally caught on that they might actually have to make changes that the rest of the companies at that price point did years ago to stay relevant. It's just too bad that the DM14 was all they did.

 

TL;DR - buying the DM14 tells Dye that it's ok to make mediocre "updated" guns without high end features.


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#70 Poopfairy35

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Posted 21 October 2013 - 07:41 PM

Seriously people? We don't need oleds on a $1,400 gun? That's like a Lamborghini not coming with those amazing scissor doors. C'mon, even Azodin has thrown in an oled on their gun. For those still arguing that dye doesn't need to put in an oled, will someone please name another company releasing a highend without an oled this year? No one? That's what I thought.

Edited by Poopfairy35, 21 October 2013 - 07:43 PM.

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#71 BurningPlaydoh

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Posted 21 October 2013 - 08:29 PM

Seriously people? We don't need oleds on a $1,400 gun? That's like a Lamborghini not coming with those amazing scissor doors. C'mon, even Azodin has thrown in an oled on their gun. For those still arguing that dye doesn't need to put in an oled, will someone please name another company releasing a highend without an oled this year? No one? That's what I thought.

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#72 J3R3MY

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Posted 22 October 2013 - 08:33 AM

Seriously people? We don't need oleds on a $1,400 gun? That's like a Lamborghini not coming with those amazing scissor doors. C'mon, even Azodin has thrown in an oled on their gun. For those still arguing that dye doesn't need to put in an oled, will someone please name another company releasing a highend without an oled this year? No one? That's what I thought.

 

I propose your argument is invalid. See below:

 

Lamborghini's have amazing scissor doors.

+

Tanks are better in battle than Lamborghinis.

+

Tanks do not have scissor doors.

=

It is better to not have scissor doors in battle.



#73 Red Infinity

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Posted 22 October 2013 - 10:40 AM

 

Seriously people? We don't need oleds on a $1,400 gun? That's like a Lamborghini not coming with those amazing scissor doors. C'mon, even Azodin has thrown in an oled on their gun. For those still arguing that dye doesn't need to put in an oled, will someone please name another company releasing a highend without an oled this year? No one? That's what I thought.

 

I propose your argument is invalid. See below:

 

Lamborghini's have amazing scissor doors.

+

Tanks are better in battle than Lamborghinis.

+

Tanks do not have scissor doors.

=

It is better to not have scissor doors in battle.

 

 

The tank cost 5 million more plus ammunition..... 


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#74 Irish725

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Posted 22 October 2013 - 12:24 PM

MFW When someone is trying to sell their used DM14 for 1600 or "2013 High Ends + 1000 nothing less" in trade....


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#75 Poopfairy35

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Posted 22 October 2013 - 07:11 PM


Seriously people? We don't need oleds on a $1,400 gun? That's like a Lamborghini not coming with those amazing scissor doors. C'mon, even Azodin has thrown in an oled on their gun. For those still arguing that dye doesn't need to put in an oled, will someone please name another company releasing a highend without an oled this year? No one? That's what I thought.

 
I propose your argument is invalid. See below:
 
Lamborghini's have amazing scissor doors.
+
Tanks are better in battle than Lamborghinis.

+
Tanks do not have scissor doors.
=
It is better to not have scissor doors in battle.
Your arguement is invalid. That's like saying a paintball gun sucks because it can't shoot as fast as an actual firearm.
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#76 bassfisher

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Posted 24 October 2013 - 06:35 PM

Here's a thought that I bet nobody thought of. I personally love oleds. The reason I do is because I have epilepsy and don't want a flashing light in my face every time I shoot the gun. Sorry axe... That stupid light by the power button is the worst.
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#77 AoSpades

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Posted 24 October 2013 - 06:53 PM

Now all the OLED haters are like

 

tumblr_ktnaa0utuw1qa2i2xo1_400.gif


Edited by AoSpades, 24 October 2013 - 06:54 PM.

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#78 get.lit.up!

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Posted 24 October 2013 - 08:08 PM

While I don't oppose oled on mrkers but cmon at least program them with more features(Bob long), or better yet fucking empire with their easy to tear oled joystick membrane. Like shit get it together.

The pe ones are pretty good, but then again I don't actually own pe marker anymore. And I downgraded from an Axe pro to regular Axe.

The only advantages I see with led are cost (like for raw product and r&d), durability, and battery efficentcy. But it's expected now if you sell a marker for $1k+ it has to come with oled, but for me it has to work good too
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#79 5ozofpain

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Posted 24 October 2013 - 09:12 PM

I don't hate OLED boards, I just see no use for them. All i ever do is turn on my gun, I programmed it once I got it and haven't touched it. I could see if you needed to change it everyday then an oled would be useful, but it is something companies put on their guns so they can add to the list of features.


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#80 AoSpades

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Posted 25 October 2013 - 04:11 AM

I don't hate OLED boards, I just see no use for them. All i ever do is turn on my gun, I programmed it once I got it and haven't touched it. I could see if you needed to change it everyday then an oled would be useful, but it is something companies put on their guns so they can add to the list of features.

Again, as I said previosly, an OLED is more than just an additional feature to those who play multiple formats.

 

For instance at Oklahoma DDay I typically stay there the entire week. They have a speedball field as well as woodsball/scenario games that go on throughout the week. An OLED is an excellent feature because you can store settings you have programmed in the night before. I like using spools, so when I play speedball I like consistancy, but for woodsball I'd want efficiency. Being able to turn the board on, and go Settings>Option 1 for speedball and Option 2 for woodsball is awesome. Moreover I had pre-made modes for reactive, PSP, and Millenium modes. It's not a space taker if you actually delve into it and see the potential it has rather than passing it off as an unneccessary addition.


Edited by AoSpades, 25 October 2013 - 04:12 AM.

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#81 Panda's Revenge

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Posted 25 October 2013 - 07:19 PM

[*]No OLED[list]
[*]Yup, I brought it up and here's why. At $1600 a pop, I'd like something other than blinky lights, seriously. Blue = ROF, Yellow = Firing mode, Green = Trigger sensitivity, Red = Dwell... That's all I get? Are you fucking kidding me? How about debounce adjustment, finetuning the dwells to 0.1 increments, how about a practice mode. Maybe I get a little bolt stick, I'd like to adjust my FSDO so I can bump up the FPS a smidge on that first shot. How about bolt return and ball drop delays? Maybe I play multiple leagues and formats and would like to save my settings on the board so I can quickly change to a program where I can get the maximum efficiency and play on semi for woodsball of a scenario. While another setting would be for consistency when I play snake and have it set for PSP-3. All of this may seem trivial but when forking out $1600, I'd like to think I'd get a little more adjusta-fuckin-bility.
or for 3 years now and it is still going strong. I simply have a problem with their markers, always behind the curve and overpriced yet people flock to them for reasoning I have yet to understand.


Hell, my 7 year old OG quest has more programming options than the DM14. Wtf. Thing shoots smooth as butter too. And I got that for $150. Fuck the DM14

#82 III Kezia III

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Posted 26 October 2013 - 06:33 AM

The DM line has to be worth something to somebody, otherwise Dye would cancel the line before it sank their ship....

 

That being said, i am finding it difficult to see why people who claim it isn't worth its price take sooo much time to go out of their way to tell everyone how "not worth it"/bad it is.... If it were really bad everyone would simply agree that it was.... Its not that bad, so personal preference rules IMO...

funny you should mention sinking ships like that. the reason why dye cut the PM series was because the PM8 was basically a dm9 in a PM body and everyone figured that out and started buying PM8s over DMs. so what did dye do? discontinued the PM series because it was wrecking the more expensive DM line's sales.


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#83 Old Dude PB

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Posted 26 October 2013 - 09:21 AM

PM8 was basically a dm9 in a PM body and everyone figured that out and started buying PM8s over DMs. so what did dye do? discontinued the PM series because it was wrecking the more expensive DM line's sales.

 

 

I'd like to know Dye/Proto's unit sales by model for the last ten years. I'm sure some of their decisions made sense in the moment, but it adds up to a weird and complicated tale, between the Rail line, the PM line, the SLG, the DM line, and the NT.



#84 Jawz

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Posted 27 October 2013 - 08:06 PM

This whole thread just screams one thing at me

 

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109.gif

 

 

 


#85 The Recballer

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Posted 27 October 2013 - 08:34 PM

This whole thread just screams one thing at me

 

[Apple logo]

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#86 Eskimo

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Posted 04 November 2013 - 07:41 PM

Honestly, what are you going to improve on the drivetrain?  It's amazing.  If you want less o-rings and better efficiency, buy an NT.  If you never want to break paint, buy a DM.

  It's amazing.  If you want less o-rings and better efficiency, buy an NT.  If you never want to break paint

..nd better efficiency, buy an NT.  If you never wa..

buy an NT


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#87 III Kezia III

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Posted 05 November 2013 - 02:44 AM

 

PM8 was basically a dm9 in a PM body and everyone figured that out and started buying PM8s over DMs. so what did dye do? discontinued the PM series because it was wrecking the more expensive DM line's sales.

 

 

I'd like to know Dye/Proto's unit sales by model for the last ten years. I'm sure some of their decisions made sense in the moment, but it adds up to a weird and complicated tale, between the Rail line, the PM line, the SLG, the DM line, and the NT.

 

im sure its not the only reason why they dropped the pm series but it sure did preform better that the NT line and the SLGs


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#88 Jawz

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Posted 05 November 2013 - 05:54 AM

 

 

PM8 was basically a dm9 in a PM body and everyone figured that out and started buying PM8s over DMs. so what did dye do? discontinued the PM series because it was wrecking the more expensive DM line's sales.

 

 

I'd like to know Dye/Proto's unit sales by model for the last ten years. I'm sure some of their decisions made sense in the moment, but it adds up to a weird and complicated tale, between the Rail line, the PM line, the SLG, the DM line, and the NT.

 

im sure its not the only reason why they dropped the pm series but it sure did preform better that the NT line and the SLGs

 

No you pretty much hit the nail on the head bud, they dropped the PM line because of the similar (too similar) performance compared to the more expensive DM's. It was also said that the PM8 was a DM9 prototype (I don't know how true that is) and so that also made people want it alittle more. 


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#89 fumbimo

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Posted 05 November 2013 - 08:52 AM

This whole thread just screams one thing at me

 

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me too actually. that dye premium cost, for a sub par product imo. also just my opinion when it comes to highends, if you are dishing out a shitload of money for a paintball marker like upwards of $1000 it should have absolutely everything you want. some people like Oled's/LCD boards while some don't really care or don't like them, but everybody who does like them has every right to bitch about how the dm14 doesn't, because it's a $1600 marker without a feature that shows up in almost every other modern high end marker out there. 

I don't hate OLED boards, I just see no use for them. All i ever do is turn on my gun, I programmed it once I got it and haven't touched it. I could see if you needed to change it everyday then an oled would be useful, but it is something companies put on their guns so they can add to the list of features.

and if you agree with this ^. then still why not have on OLED/LCD on your board, you can still just turn your marker on and off and not worry about it but you have the board there for when you do want to program/do anything with it. i think it is pretty absurd that dye still doesn't have an LCD/OLED board in any of there markers.


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#90 AoSpades

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Posted 05 November 2013 - 06:26 PM

It was also said that the PM8 was a DM9 prototype (I don't know how true that is) and so that also made people want it alittle more. 


Turns out it was the DM14 prototype.

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#91 Nobben #44

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Posted 08 November 2013 - 04:19 AM

Oh, the OLED argument, the most retarted thing I have ever encountered on TechPB. I've owned around 50 high ends, most of them Eclipse guns. That screen is the most useless thing you can put on a marker except for a sight and shroud.


Edited by Nobben #44, 08 November 2013 - 04:21 AM.


#92 bigx

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Posted 08 November 2013 - 08:37 AM

Oh, the OLED argument, the most retarted thing I have ever encountered on TechPB. I've owned around 50 high ends, most of them Eclipse guns. That screen is the most useless thing you can put on a marker except for a sight and shroud.

 

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#93 Old Dude PB

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Posted 08 November 2013 - 10:18 AM

Oh, the OLED argument, the most retarted thing I have ever encountered on TechPB. I've owned around 50 high ends, most of them Eclipse guns. That screen is the most useless thing you can put on a marker except for a sight and shroud.

 

It's a market desperate for differentiation, so I think people focus on what they can. Not saying it makes sense...just that it's understandable. If there were a way to make markers change color on the fly, we'd all be bitching about the high end guns that couldn't do it.



#94 andrewthewookie

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Posted 08 November 2013 - 11:12 AM

What I don't understand, is why people argue against OLEDs. They're better than LEDs, period. Even if you don't care what's on the gun, it's still a better interface. And if it doesn't matter to people whether it's an OLED or LED on the gun, why even argue against OLEDs in the first place? On a gun like the DM, the difference between an OLED and LED won't have any affect on the end price either, the price increase on the new macroless PM8s with old LED shows that.


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#95 J3R3MY

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Posted 08 November 2013 - 11:41 AM

 

Oh, the OLED argument, the most retarted thing I have ever encountered on TechPB. I've owned around 50 high ends, most of them Eclipse guns. That screen is the most useless thing you can put on a marker except for a sight and shroud.

 

It's a market desperate for differentiation, so I think people focus on what they can. Not saying it makes sense...just that it's understandable. If there were a way to make markers change color on the fly, we'd all be bitching about the high end guns that couldn't do it.

 

 

I agree 100%.



#96 TK-421

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Posted 08 November 2013 - 12:52 PM

Oh, the OLED argument, the most retarted thing I have ever encountered on TechPB. I've owned around 50 high ends, most of them Eclipse guns. That screen is the most useless thing you can put on a marker except for a sight and shroud.

 

Agreed. The only reason it's there is to make kiddies go "Ooooooh, shiny!"



#97 andrewthewookie

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Posted 08 November 2013 - 12:56 PM

Nice straw man.

 

We do not want OLEDs just for the "Oooooh, shiny," we want them because they are superior in every way to LEDs. There is literally nothing an LED does better. Period.

 

But feel free to keep feeling like you're some hipster LED fan that's better than everyone else for wanting a better product.


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#98 BurningPlaydoh

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Posted 08 November 2013 - 01:11 PM


Oh, the OLED argument, the most retarted thing I have ever encountered on TechPB. I've owned around 50 high ends, most of them Eclipse guns. That screen is the most useless thing you can put on a marker except for a sight and shroud.

 
Agreed. The only reason it's there is to make kiddies go "Ooooooh, shiny!"
And why wouldn't you want that kind of reaction from a $1500 marker?

#99 Old Dude PB

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Posted 08 November 2013 - 01:32 PM

What I don't understand, is why people argue against OLEDs. They're better than LEDs, period. Even if you don't care what's on the gun, it's still a better interface. And if it doesn't matter to people whether it's an OLED or LED on the gun, why even argue against OLEDs in the first place? On a gun like the DM, the difference between an OLED and LED won't have any affect on the end price either, the price increase on the new macroless PM8s with old LED shows that.

 

I'm not against OLED boards. I put one on one of my markers and it's pretty cool. I agree that they offer a better interface than LEDs. Where I take issue with the whole "gotta have an OLED" sentiment is with regard to the question of importance. Some people change the settings on their guns a lot. It makes sense that those people would prefer an OLED board. I totally get that, and I'm glad that companies like Virtue and Tadao make upgrade boards for those folks. But some people, me included, don't change the settings on our guns much. I mostly play rec ball, and almost always play semi. So when someone bashes a gun or a manufacturer for not including an OLED board, I just think, "so what?" To me, it's like arguing over the best brand of towing hitch for my SUV. I'm sure some towing hitches are better than others, but I don't tow stuff, so I don't really care.

 

(Also, if there's really a macroless PM8 out there, I want one...)



#100 andrewthewookie

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Posted 08 November 2013 - 01:42 PM

 

What I don't understand, is why people argue against OLEDs. They're better than LEDs, period. Even if you don't care what's on the gun, it's still a better interface. And if it doesn't matter to people whether it's an OLED or LED on the gun, why even argue against OLEDs in the first place? On a gun like the DM, the difference between an OLED and LED won't have any affect on the end price either, the price increase on the new macroless PM8s with old LED shows that.

 

I'm not against OLED boards. I put one on one of my markers and it's pretty cool. I agree that they offer a better interface than LEDs. Where I take issue with the whole "gotta have an OLED" sentiment is with regard to the question of importance. Some people change the settings on their guns a lot. It makes sense that those people would prefer an OLED board. I totally get that, and I'm glad that companies like Virtue and Tadao make upgrade boards for those folks. But some people, me included, don't change the settings on our guns much. I mostly play rec ball, and almost always play semi. So when someone bashes a gun or a manufacturer for not including an OLED board, I just think, "so what?" To me, it's like arguing over the best brand of towing hitch for my SUV. I'm sure some towing hitches are better than others, but I don't tow stuff, so I don't really care.

 

(Also, if there's really a macroless PM8 out there, I want one...)

 

 

That's fine, and I understand that viewpoint. I used to be like that too. But it's the principle of the thing. These guns are the most expensive guns currently available, the very peak of the top-of-the-line guns. For them to have a conscious design choice to use an inferior method over the better option, especially if that better option doesn't detrimentally effect the overall package or price, then there's a problem on the design end.


And the macroless PM8 is called the DM14 now.


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